There is probably no bigger immigration issue than the one involving Israel and Palestine. Currently both of these sides are engaged in open warfare. I have said ‘sides’ because there is no state of Palestine. Obviously, there is a state of Israel, formed May 14, 1948. Much of the deep seated bone of contention is that Israel was formed on former Palestinian lands.
War in this area and between Israel and Palestine is certainly not unusual. It has been going on since the birth of the state of Israel. In fact, it went on before that. Yesterday afternoon, Israeli troops crossed over into Gaza, which is that little area about twice the size of DC on the Mediterranean between Israel and Egypt.
Israel’s objective is to stop the firing of rockets from the Gaza strip into Israel. Who could blame them? A week ago, Israel began firing into Gaza. Since this did not seem to work and the rockets are still sailing into Israeli territory. Yesterday, Israel decided to show Hamas, the ruling elected government in Gaza, it meant business. The battle on the ground now enters its second day. Israel has stated that it is not attempting to topple Hamas, only to upgrade security and to stop the firing of rockets into Israel.
As stated above, there is there is no state of Palestine. It has three non-contiguous areas: Gaza, Golan Heights, and the West Bank. Just bringing up the name Palestine can bring about a fight. It is a term used since Roman times. In this thread, it simply means the area that would be the proposed state of Palestine.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is extremely complex. Explaining the intricacies of the region is far beyond my limited area of expertise. People in regions all over the United States are demonstrating for and against Israel. Emotions are running high. Emotions in the region are even higher and hopefully will not spill over into other countries or regions. The Middle East always heightens our alert in at home.
So here we sit watching a war unfold—a war that is an on-going flare up from decades old conflict on the one hand. On the other hand, this war, like other wars, has the potential of blowing up in our faces and involving other countries of the world, includes ultimately, the USA. Certainly our foreign policy favors the state of Israel which brings about the wrath of other Arabic states in the Middle East.
Finding a stopping place on this subject is impossible, so the readers and contributors of Anti-bvbl are just going to have to take over.
Addendum: If you are like me, the middle east conflict is so complex it takes on a blur of sorts. Here is a link to a timeline that highlights Israel and Hamas difficulties.
Gainesville, I think it was one of Clinton’s biggest disappointments. He came so close …and Arrafatt (sp) just wouldn’t budge after a point.
I think we gave Palestine foreign aid but cut it off once Hamas was elected to lead the government because they were an identified terrorist group. That threw the region into even more poverty.
I think part of the problem is exacerbated by the fact they have bunches of young men wandering around with unemployment at over 50% and no army to draw them into a socially acceptable way to be militaristic. Yes, perhaps I am saying too much testosterone.
If there were a state of Palestine they could raise an army, get all those wandering young men involved and do something productive. Army corp of engineers type stuff. You have employment, increased quality of life, and less opportunity to be a terrorist.
We don’t give Palestine or Israel foreign aid but then cut it off, we gave our aid to Israel, forced them to “compromise” with Palestine and gave them (Palestine) our aid a via Israel. The US is complicit in the entire deal. We’re dirty on both ends of the stick. Both hands in a pot but not one to piss in. And while we’re all celebrating the US leaving the green zone in Iraq…who gets the surplus weapons? The army brings it in weapons-wise but they dont take it home. They leave it. Who will they give the intel to? The Kurds who are highly organized or others? Who wants it more? There is the next spat.
We do not give Hamas foreign aid because they are designated as terrorist. We give Israel about 2 billion dollars a year in foreign aid. I don’t know what stipiulations are on Israel, if any.
We should bring our weapons home when we leave an area. To not do so is wasteful and idiotic.
We don’t give Hamas funding directly, but they get our funding in a round about way from us and use it against us and the countries the US supports. They’re cagey that way. We give Israel how much in aid? Aid for what? They have a top notch CIA-type program, they rely on “volunteers” for their armed forces, mandatory armed service requirements for both men and women.
“If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that,” he told reporters. The Israeli defense minister, Ehud Barak, quoted Mr. Obama’s statement in justifying the attack on Hamas during a news briefing on Dec. 29.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/washington/05diplo.html?hp
Hello,
This was the statement I was talking about, however, this was re-stated by Ehud Barak, Israel’s defense minister on December 29th, NOT by Obama himself.
The people of Gaza ought to declare war on Hamas. It is Hamas who has brought about the Israeli incursion. I go back to slowpoke’s statement. I think it says it all.
Supposedly Fatah over on the West Bank is cracking down on demonstrations and not even allowing the Hamas flag to be shown. 2 schools of thought here. 1. They don’t want the competition 2. They don’t want to have Israel crawling all over the West Bank because it is a security threat. They don’t want to demonstrate any solidarity with Hamas, although many of the people do.
Slow, can you go over there and just tell these people in plain,old fashioned, straight-forward terms what a bad idea solidarity with Hamas would be?
To read more…..
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/world/middleeast/06westbank.html?_r=1&th&emc=th
DB, I think about 2 billion dollars per year …foreign aid to Israel.
Why do you think we give foreign aid indirectly to Hamas?
DB, is this what you are talking about? I read it and came away going duh…not sure here.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf
here’s the Israel one:
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf
I can’t find anything that gives an exact amount in US aid to Israel for 2008. I am sure it is out there but I am too lazy to search real hard.
MH – that’s a good comment you made about the people of Gaza should declare war on Hamas. Unfortunately, at least recently before the rocket attacks started, a lot of Palestinians were very supportive of the Hamas. It will be interesting to see if this changes their opinions. It would also be great if the next election cycle Hamas was thrown out in favor of the Fatah regime.
Regarding US aid to Israel – I highly doubt there are any preconditions or strings attached.
Now that you mention it, I do remember the US giving aid to the Palestinians up until the Hamas came into power.
I seem to remember Clinton actually saying the failure of the Peace Accords was one of his biggest disappointments. Arafat sure was stubborn – they came so close that time.
Well, I don’t know what the solution is.
On a slightly different topic – what does everyone think about Obama’s pick for CIA Director? I am on the side of thinking it is not good. The last time they put someone in without any intelligence experience (and to make a “clean sweep” or something) it was a disaster and led to low morale and many long-term CIA intelligence operatives leaving. I hope history doesn’t repeat itself. I’m very surprised by this choice, and thought Obama would have put someone in with intelligence experience. Sure, they can say Padetta has lots of foreign policy experience being a former Chief of Staff, but that isn’t the same as intelligence experience. Was it a political favor? Or does Obama really want to bring in someone with good organizational skills to reorganize the CIA? Time will tell I guess. Also he really blundered (or his staff) by not telling Senator Feinstein about this. Rule number one is you should give someone like that a “heads up” on this kind of appointment (even if it was someone with intelligence experience). Blindsiding the head of the intelligence committee is not such a good idea. It will be interesting to watch the confirmation hearings on this one, although I’m sure in the end he will be confirmed. Let’s hope it doesn’t harm the CIA in the long run.
Gainesville, he probably should have consulted her expertise in chosing someone. I say it is a screw up (but what do I know). How much experience did George Bush Sr. have when he was placed in that position? I do know people really liked him in that capacity.
Leon Panetta has a good reputation but what good does that do you if no expertise in the intelligence community. Bad joke. Maybe he should put Daddy Bush back in there.
Gainesville, those people of Gaza ought to turn on Hamas and tear them to shreds. Again, back to Slowpoke’s comment. Why would they lob missiles at Israel? What do they think is going to happen? What would ANY country do? It is like those drunks at the zoo who had to taunt the tiger. Fooled them for sure as they became tiger food.
I sure hope that after a small taste of the democratic process the people of Gaza vote more3 sensibly, if there is anyone left. Seeing those civilians in makeshift hospitals in shreds is heartbreaking. Anytime there is armed agression in a small urban area like Gaza there will be huge collateral damage. (I hate that expression) This is just all so freaking STUPID!
MH – you may have a point about Bush Sr. – I don’t think he had any relevant experience before the CIA. Well I hope it works out, the CIA has had enough problems in its recent past without any new ones. It does seem though that failing to give Senator Feinstein a heads up about this was a screw-up, that may cost Obama some political good will at the very least. Wonder if it was intentional or an oversight.
MH – indeed trying to go up against Israel is beyond stupid. They have one of the best armed forces in the world and also their intelligence service is world class. I don’t know really what Hamas hopes to achieve by doing this other than just inflicting some damage and casualties. However, whatever they do achieve – the Israeli’s are going to do far more damage and inflict more casualties on Hamas, that’s for sure. Hard to say what Hamas’ end goal is here – as they have to know they aren’t going to succeed in destroying Israel – they are very outmatched in that respect.
I just happened to see on CNN’s webpage a poll asking the question “Is Leon Panetta a good choice to head the CIA?”. Of course this is not a scientific poll, but right now with 37976 responses it is running 38% Yes and 62% No.
Obama was just on tv addressing all the things we have been discussing. His reasoning on Leon Panetta is pretty good actually. He said his reputation was beyond reproach and that as chief of staff he had daily encounters with all sorts of intelligence issues. Good point. Advisor to the President surely would have a great deal of practical experience with not only intelligence but also with dealing with heads of state. Obama also said he had excellent management skills.
Obama also addressed not commenting on Hamas/Israel. He went back to it being a foreign affair matter and on Jan 20 he would have plenty to say about it. Meanwhile the countries of the world looked to the USA to see what they thought and they needed to hear President George Bush.
Gainesville, interesting cnn poll. Maybe the CIA just needs a good house-cleaning. You are right. It has been fraught with internal problems, back-biting, territorialism (is there such a word?) and general incompetence, that maybe Obama is on to something. Maybe he is trying to class the place up.
I always heard that George Bush Sr did that–brought some class to the place. He would sit down with middle management and actually talk to them about what needed to happen. From what I have heard living in Manassas, the employees loved him. Not the muckety mucks, but the rank and file employees.
MH – thanks for the update on what Obama said today both on Panetta and on the Gaza situation. I have also heard George Bush Sr. was well liked. And it is true, the CIA certainly has a lot of problems. Well, it will be interesting to see how it works out. I hope it does work out well and Panetta is right for the job – we need a strong CIA that can be out front in the war against the terrorists by providing good intelligence on them.
Gainesville, we do need a strong CIA for sure and one that isn’t in competition with other security/intelligence agencies. I hope it works out also. And if it does, they can all come thank you and me for setting them up for success. Panetta definitely has a good rep in my opinion. The CIA, on the other hand, is a little on the iffy side. They had a rather informative unveiling after 9-11 and what we saw was not a pretty sight.
MH – I agree we saw a lot of bad things about the CIA post 9/11. I don’t know that it has improved since then. Well, I do hope that Panetta can help turn things around there – so will be interesting to follow what happens there in the next few years. We do for sure need a strong CIA that doesn’t go and make embarrassing mistakes like it has in the past. Finally, I will confess about not knowing much about Panetta – I remembered the name from the Clinton years but that was about it, and couldn’t even peg him as Chief of Staff. I just knew of him as a close associate of Clinton’s. It does seem that the news articles speak well of him as someone with good management skills and organizational skills, so maybe that’s more important than actual intelligence experience (as opposed to foreign policy experience which is probably what he has more of than intelligence experience). Reading intelligence reports (as the President’s advisor) is one thing, knowing about the actual collecting of intelligence is quite another. However, I’m hoping that all of that doesn’t matter as much as being a good manager and being able to listen to career CIA folks who know more about spycraft and intelligence collecting than he does.
Gainesville, I am not even sure he has been announced yet. He might still be a rumor. But, if he is confirmed by the Senate, I hope he is successful. I am not sure he needs to know about all the spook and spy stuff. That is why he will have senior staff. He can call in all the experts that are at his disposal and he will have the managerial skills to make all those experts behave themselves.
Any news on the Gaza strip tonight? I cannot stand looking at those poor people who stupidly elected Hamas as their government. I still cannot understand why they don’t know if you poke a rotweiler with a stick it is probably going to bite the living hell out of you.
I want to make Slowpoke the Ambassador to Gaza, send him over there to like do puppet shows with them so they get the concept–so they will stop doing what they are doing! Seeing those children all shot and blown up is just heart breaking.
MH – Panetta’s selection hasn’t been “officially” announced, but an article today in the Washington Post says he is already starting to make calls to Congress, etc. So it is all but done – for whatever reason Obama is waiting to officially anounce it. Also, the Democrats on the foreign intelligence committee are insisting the two senior managers in the CIA stay on – and supposedly Obama has invited them to stay on. The Washington Post article however noted that a senior aide in the Clinton administration noted that Panetta showed no interest in intelligence briefings or the operation of the CIA when he was Chief of Staff. Of course, that aide is anonymous, so we all know what that means. Well, again I hope it works out, as the article noted, there are lots of problems currently within the CIA. I should link the article, but it is on the main page of the Washington Post website this morning.
The latest news on Gaza is that both Israel and the Palestinians have agreed to a 2 1/2 period of cease fire to let some humanitarian aid get into Gaza. So that’s a positive development.
As for the election of Hamas by the Palestinians – one thing Hamas is good at is exploiting people’s fears and they have a very good propaganda machine targeted at their audience to convince them to see their point of view. It is unfortunate that they hold so much power over there, but hopefully the latest events will cause some Palestinians to rethink whether Hamas being in a leadership role there is good for them. The daily news showing lots of people dying can’t be too helpful as how can Hamas say they are improving things in Gaza with all that going on? I would like to see how they spin that one. It should be clear that if they hadn’t provoked Israel all these people wouldn’t be dying, although I’m sure Hamas has some other spin on it.
I had to move the thread. It had rolled over and was too hard to find.
I am glad to see the cease fire. I would hope that the people in harms way would be able to cross the border over into Egypt. I am glad to see Egypt has a hand in brokering a compromise or cease fire.
You are right about Hamas and Hezbollah both being agents of fear and stirring everyone up. They never seem to be held responsible though.
Unfortunately, Israel often ends up looking like the bad guys as do we. They use the technology at hand to go to war.
So is the cease fire for today or longer?
Thanks for moving the thread MH – since it went to the 2nd page. I too am glad to see the “every other day for 2 hour” cease fire they’ve arranged. It’s a step in the right direction.
It is a no-win situation for Israel, that’s for sure. If they sit and do nothing, they get criticized. If they defend themselves, which is their right, they get criticized. Similar to what happens to the US in many situations.
I read that the cease fire is every other day for a 2 hour (or maybe it is 2 1/2 hour) period. I think that’s correct (at least that it is every other day for some period at the same time) so that’s a good thing.
Gainesville, I sure hope it lasts. I don’t see how either group can live like that. How can you live wondering every day if you are going to be blown to smitherines?
Israel doesn’t fool around and will always be criticized for being too heavy handed. I have done so myself. However, back to those incoming shells being fired from Gaza…who could blame them.
I haven’t sounded much like a person who sees both sides lately, but I honestly do. Maybe when Hamas quits firing those missiles I will be able to be more even handed in my criticism.
MH – heard an interesting interview on WTOP this evening on the way home from work. They talked to an aide to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (again, i cut/paste the name!). The aide was fairly critical of Hamas and had a rather pragmatic view of things with Israel. He basically said it was not in their best interests to go to war with Israel and that diplomacy would be better. He said they are making attempts at getting Hamas to come to the negotiating table, but didn’t sound too optimistic about how that would go. He was fairly critical of Hamas. It was interesting to hear although of course as Abbas is a member of Fatah which is a rival of Hamas it makes sense the aide would be critical of them. Anyway, what he said made sense – too bad more Palestinians didn’t have his point of view and maybe we wouldn’t be in this mess.
That sounds very encouraging. Now, is President Abbas in Jerusalem or West Bank centered? I believe he is a reasonable person. I understand that the war is back on again. Hard to imagine turning off a war for 3 hours or so.
Gainesville, Things aren’t looking so great on the north side. I just read where Hezbollah is trying to get in the act. They have fired 2 rockets into Israel. One hit a retirement home and injured 2 seniors who were eating breakfast. Israel fired back.
Lebanon had better get a handle on Hezbollah quickly. I don’t think they want a repeat performance from 2 years ago.
I sure am not developing any warm fuzzies over Arab terrorist groups. Is anyone else?
MH – I’m fairly certain Abbas is in the West Bank in Jerusalem. It is hard to imagine the war turning off for a 3 hour period every other day. Never heard of that one before but at least it is something.
I also heard this morning about Hezbollah launching rockets. I guess they want a piece of the action too.
By the way, I saw an interesting article about the whole thing online at Time’s website this morning – the link is http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870314,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner . It doesn’t paint such a good picture for Israel if the war continues long term. Not sure if I agree with everything it says, but it does make some good points and is worth reading.
Thanks, Gainesville. I will definitely check the article out. You know, I don’t see why Israel would be questioned here. They can’t pick and chose who decides to fire missiles at them. Lebanon needs to get things under control there. Gaza is another story. That is land that really isn’t a state.
I am not Jewish so perhaps this is just a statement I don’t have the right to make, but I cannot imagine living in Israel. Why put yourself through living with terrorism.
I would agree with you MH. As a Jewish person, at one time the idea of living in Israel looked a little bit appealing. But right now, no way would I want to live there. I also would like to visit Israel sometime, but not right now. An aunt and uncle of mine travelled there last summer and enjoyed it, but even then I was worried about their safety. If I was living in Israel I would be living very scared, let’s put it that way.
Upon thinking about that Time article, there was some things I definitely disagreed on. They seemed to say even though Israel had a right to defend itself, continuing to try to disarm Hamas (and not actually overthrow Hamas) was doing more harm than good. I think Israel does have the right to attempt to take out all of Hamas’ missile capability. The article even stated that the Israeli Prime Minister has said they are not out to overthrow Hamas.
Anyway, my sympathies are with the Israeli’s who try to live there and make a living. Somewhere else (I think) I saw an article about a man who lives on the Israeli side near the Gaza strip. His house was just hit by a Hamas missile. It must be really hard living there – but not easy living anywhere in Israel these days. There are plenty of casualties on the Palestinian side, but not many articles mention those on the Israeli side. The Hamas missiles are obviously landing SOMEWHERE in Israel and inflicting damage and casualties.
MH – here’s another article that might be interesting reading for you that was just posted. This is in the January Issue of “The Jewish Voice and Opinion” which the editor is a close friend of mine from college. Obviously it is pro-Israeli point of view. Anyway, the title is:
“Who Is to Blame? Israel and the US Say Hamas; Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah, plus the Media, say Israel; Abbas, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan Say It Doesn’t Matter, Just Keep the Muslim Brotherhood Away”
The link to it is http://jewishvoiceandopinion.com/a/JVO20090101.html
I have found and marked everything. Notice that the thread is repositioned. with Hezbollah throwing back in the mix, I am sorry to say this one might be around for a longer time than anticipated. We can always have another thread.
One of the things I find uncomfortable when I talk about the Israeli/Palestine conflict is I do see both sides when looking at the big picture. My family has a sort of inlaw who is Jewish who takes any criticism of Israel and anything in defense of Palestinians as anti-semitic. I don’t see it that way at all. In fact, I find it offensive. Good grief, I criticize plenty of policies of the USA. It doesn’t mean that I am anti-American or anti anything else other than that policy. I am opposed to how the Indians were treated when our country was settled. I don’t want to go out and give them back every square foot of land. Time to move on. Ah, I had to grouse a bit.
OK, you are right that now that Hezollah has decided to join in the fray, it’s going to make it even harder to work out a resolution. I do think it’s a safe bet we may be discussing this for a long time, unfortunately.
I will confess that I often don’t take criticism of Israel too well, although I’ve never really thought of that as being anti-semitic. That being said, a lot of the press seems to be giving a kind of lopsided portrayal of things – CNN being one of the biggest culprits. It also is a subject that most people have very strong opinions about – one way or the other. You may be kind of in the minority of being able to feel some sympathy for both sides in the conflict – although you seem to be losing your sympathy for the Palestinians as they continue to support Hamas who appears to be doing them more harm than good. Most people I’ve talked to or have seen express opinions on this are very much on one side or the other – they either think Israel is completely wrong in this and are killing innocent Palestinians, or else they side with Israel.
Glad you were able to move the thread – and I guess it was more work than you bargained for as it gave you a bit of trouble doing so.
It didn’t take long. I had to decide where to put other things and which threads were ready to roll on off into the sunset. (without offending others, of course)
I haven’t been watching cnn on this and no particular reason. I don’t like my news interpreted for me. I want to decide for myself.
I don’t like to see things as black or white. Life isn’t that simple. Most things have a lot of gray in them. If I turn left, I get there faster but the scenery is ugly and the road is bumpy. If I turn right, it takes longer but it a better road and there are places to stop along the way such as rest stops….which one is right? It depends.
I do think our foreign policy is too lopsided. I am not sure how to fix the problem. But the rest of the Arab world cannot see us as totally in favor of israel and screw everyone else. We have to be seen as a fairer nation and we cannot dismiss that the land has belonged to both groups of people.
I could blab for the next hour, so I am going to stop and go finish those articles. I had company and I am SO glad they went home.
Moonhowler, your commentary is excellant! I have tried so hard on this blog to show people (from my own war experience in the Middle East region), that hatred and bigotry is a direct result of people taking side based ONLY on their political affiliation with a group divided by race, gender, religion and ethnicity.
This divide, and the continued politics of gender, racial, religios and ethnic preference and law that supports only specifric groups, is the heart of hatred, and the reason for all of the conflict.
It WILL NOT stop until people their in the Middle East, just like people here in the US, finally outlaw all forms of racial, gender, religious and ethnic group based political activism, and leadership bigotry in corrupted politics that is based only on what race, gender, religion or ethnic group a person belongs to.
WE as a nation are in the same danger of the same uncontrollable ethnic conflict if we DO NOT stop going down our current non-harmoneous, non-united, a-political nationalist, divided, Anti-American diversity advocacy, anti-law lawlessness, divided racist bigotry and conflicted, militant, gender, racial, religious, and ethnicity group politcal paths.
The problem, and the solution my dear moonhowler (again I LOVE your honest, thoughtful and truthful comments) is to ensure unified democracy, rather than group political corruption prevails, and that “rule of law” prevails that judges and punishes “individuals” judged by what they do to harm innocent others, not how much one group can divide and politically support corrupt, unethical, and diverse political philosophy and extremist activism, based on what gender, race, religion or ethnicity you politically belong to.
That is the heart of ethnic hatred, conflict and war.
The final peaceful solution will only come when they can merge their two religions, remove the bad in both religions and keep the good, since they actually BOTH have the same historical texts derived from the same events described by early hebrews and early summarians (babylonians), that spread both east and west (some 6000-7000 years ago). They and most of Asia, share a common religious ancestry (but many don’t know it), but due to modern revisions and doctrinal changes (fought over how they were to treat fellow men and how to get into heaven), caused modern day martyrs and taught religious hatred as a religious virtue. Some day All religions of the world will have the same ethical conflict and it can only be solved by the same merging solution.
Welcome to our discussion Michael. Gainesville resident and I aren’t willing to turn loose of this one! And it looks like it is intensifying.
I expect that this little section of the middle east is the poster child for the heart of ethnic hatred, conflict and war. To me, it makes absolutely no sense for the erruptions of violence to have happened.
Gainesville has left several very interesting articles. I am still finishing up the end of the Time article. The Jewish Voice and Opinion really looked at many different sides. My only fault with that article, and the fault is with me, is my knowledge base left me a little short sometimes and I wasn’t sure who people were and what group was what.
All in all, I felt that group gave a very fair analysis. It is all too easy to forget that not all Palestinians agree, not all Arabs agree, not all Palestinians are Muslim, not all Jews agree and not just Palestians have been displaced.
I believe Obama, will do what is right, tell both sides to stop, sit down at a table and draw a border between them (trade Gaza land for more paletinian land somewhere else. Then set up a buffer zone like in N. Korea, Vietnam, etc, Then let each of them rule themselves, until the “people” and political elements can homogenize (like carthage, athens and rome did) to agree on the same universial democratic law, that removes religion from government, enforces the same national legal system and more unified politics and a unified united nation of “individuals” rather than “religious and ethnic political groups” that hate each other for generations because they hurt and oppressed each other last week, last month, last year….
More people have been killed in the name of God than any other cause. How sad, and certainly not what any God I know of would want. Let’s throw Christians in the mix here also. They have certainly made their mark upon the region.
I am too lazy to go back to see if I first mentioned that my first exposure, outside of textbooks, to the ‘other side’ of the Palestine/Israel conflict came from an older Palestinian Christian woman. Ordinarily, I would say her religion was irrelevant, but in this case, it wasn’t. Hearing her feelings and knowing that neither Judiasm or Islam were part of the complaint gave me a little clearer picture of the regional problem. She also was a young adult at the end of WWII. I had a very eye opening afternoon about 20 years ago while talking to Mrs. N.
I thank her for giving me a first hand account because it caused me to see the horrible problems in this region, I feel, in a fairer way and in a way that is freer of group bias.
Both sides are wrong and both sides are right. They simply have to learn to merge their cultures into a unified nation and if possible unified religion (or repect the right to individual freedom to each practice in peace, while preventing group based political advocacy by ethnicity and by religion, which is the source of the hatred) or keep them seperate politically behind a border, seperate and forever apart until they can respect and not oppress each other. As many have said that may take third party pressure from both Arab and non-Arab nations condemning violence and hatred on both sides, regardless of which “Hatfield” killed which “McCoy” first.
People who kill in God’s name, regardless of the nation they are from, do not have God’s permission or blessing, nor are they morally religious, but are instead driven by a force of hatred and in-humanity that is not from God.
Stop doing that! has to be a part of the Obama message.
The Bosnians and Croats got along surfacely when Tito was alive. He told them if they fought he was going to kill them. They did, he did, they stopped, at least while he was looking. I know that is a great over-exaggeration and I say it somewhat tongue in cheek…but there is something to warring factions just being told to knock it off.
Michael, I totally agree with you. re God. More later.
Yes, there are also many Christians wrongly driven by hate, thinking it is the blessing of God. It is easy to recognize based on who is most harmed, and whether it is action based on “love” or “hate”. Religious law often creates and fuels that hatred, while religious love, regardless of religious law (for a christian a belief and relationship with Christ, driving that love), tells you when following the law is in-humane and hateful, and thus not from God.
So true Moonhowler, just like fighting “kids” need to be told to knock it off and play nice or go sit in a corner until you can be more civilized and compassionate to your sibling.
My mother used to tell us she was going to knock our heads together if we didn’t stop fighting. She did it a few times and it hurt like hell.
MH – you are right – that article in the Jewish Voice and Opinion really was a very balanced look at the whole situation and had a huge amount of detail on everyone’s opinions. I did not know some of the groups or leaders mentioned either – so it is a good lesson on current “geopolitics” I guess. Usually the articles in that paper – which a good friend of mine from college is the managing editor of – are very slanted toward the Jewish point of view – but this one was really a good fact gathering article just setting out all the facts listing everyone’s opinions – pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian. It probably should be read by anyone who has an interest in this conflict. That paper is has a circulation of 80,000 – primarily Jewish readers of course, so is fairly widely read. One can see old issues of it going back the last 2 years in the archives on the website actually.
Michael – regarding merging of the two religions – that would never be possible. The Jewish religion has its own beliefs and practices. Anyway, I think (other than for conflicts like these that it causes) it is good that there are many religions. It is diversity just like everything else. Anyway, the Orthodox Jews would never agree to something like this. As far as they are concerned, Reformed Jews aren’t even “true” Jews because they don’t follow all the religious practices that you are supposed to, if you interpret the Old Testament and other Jewish religious documents (the Talmud especially) in a strict manner – that is rigorously following everything set out in them. I don’t see any merging of the Jewish religion with any other religion happening ever. Also, it would be ashame as there is many traditions that are “ethnically Jewish” that would be a terrible thing to lose. I’m speaking not just of strictly religious things, but also other things such as Yiddish, Jewish foods, etc. that have in some parts of the US found their way into mainstream society. While one might argue that these non-religious but ethnic Jewish things might not be lost, some of those things have been fading away as younger Jewish people lose a lot of their Jewish identity. In any event, regardless of all that, as I said above I don’t see any merger of the Jewish religion with any other religion (regardless if they believe in the “same God”) happening – I would say the chances of that are slim to none, being closer to none. Not in our lifetime anyway. Maybe somewhere in the distant future – anything could happen i guess.
Very intersting exchange here guys, I am enjoying reading.