Media General News Service
Published: January 27, 2009The Virginia Senate today approved a bill that would prohibit illegal aliens from receiving in-state tuition benefits unless they meet a series of stringent academic, immigration and residency criteria.
Under Senate Bill 1037, sponsored by Sen. Emmett Hanger, R-Augusta, illegal immigrants would only qualify for the in-state benefit if they attend a Virginia high school, live in the state and have paid taxes for three years.
Such applicants would also have to demonstrate that they are not in the process of being deported from the country and that they are in the process of applying for permanent residency in the U.S.
The bill now moves to the House of Delegates.
—Jim Nolan
After reading the above short news article, I had to stop and ask, is this a restriction or has the door opened just a crack for children of illegal immigrants. How does this bill tighten up on things? Currently, I don’t think children of illegal immigrants are even eligible for admission to 4 year colleges. Are they admitted to the community colleges in Virginia and what tuition rate do they pay if admitted?
Passage of the Dream Act would level the playing field for these students who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in the United States out of legal status. Those who qualify academically and residentially for in-state tuition should receive it regardless of their immigration status if they meet the criteria of other students. Slapping a 3 year residency requirement on these students when other Virginia students have a 1 year residency requirement might not pass constitutional muster.
Far too many people have criticized children of illegal aliens for joining gangs, having poor high school graduation rates and doing poorly in school in general. Now this same group of nay-sayers will send up a collective hue and cry over these young adults even being allowed in a US college or university, even if they have exhibited excellent academic skills and model behavior. It seems like they just cannot win.
Getting an education always seems like a win-win situation to me. If a student has a good academic track record and has met residency requirements, he or she should be able to receive in-state tuition rather than paying the higher out of state rate. Isn’t this all based on where you live?
p.s, hate to burst your bubble, there is no utopia 😉
Apparently I need to clarify an earlier statement. Instead of using the terminology “tribe” I should have asked Rick what “Nation” he belonged to. I want to thank a dear friend for pointing out my error 😉
I never said Stalin killed Koreans. I said he deported them and others in huge number.
As for wrong doing…there is a huge difference in someone who is a child brought here by his or her parents and a mass murderer. Most illegal immigrants come here, mind their own business, go to and from work and behave. Do all of them? Of course not. And people who commit crimes may be deported with my blessings. Maybe I throw a some Americans on the plane or bus with them.
If you barricade good students from higher education then you are simply doing the self-fulfilling prophecy thing with a lot of kids. I see a no win situation. Hispanics in particular, have been accused of being lazy, dumb, low class, unwilling to assimilate, …all the negatives. yet, when some of the kids of these folks want to rise above unskilled labor by getting an education post secondary, they are denied that opportunity because of what amounts to a technicality.
Why not just admit it. Some people are out to throw every road block in the way. How sad. And I don’t even want to hear the ‘getting something for free’song and dance. WE are talking in-state tuition. That is hardly free lunch.
So, Elena, you would let as many in as want to come.
When is the last time anyone here
tried to get a B+
white male into UVA,Tech,or JMU?
Aint nothing like the real thing baby!
The real issue is poverty “Rick”. If we can address global poverty than everyone wins!
Lets discuss poverty Elena, and its relationship to “illegal” immigrants.
NONE of you get the whole picture. You are mired in a discussion about only a subset of humanity as if it is the entirity of humanity. There-in lies your logic flaw.
There are some 6 billion people in the world. They ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS, and they ALL deserve equal respect and equal opportunity. THEY all want better lives and they ALL need better education. There are some 1 BILLION people in the world living in POVERTY. I have to ask each of you why? I submit to you that NONE of you understand basic economics of poverty, and why it occurs, and WHO is hurt the most by “illegal” behavior. 1 Billion people live in poverty FAR worse than 12 million “illegal” immigrants, and they deserve your understand, help, sympathy and RESPECT far more than just a specific “ethnicity” almost all of you seem to focus on. WHY DO YOU DO THIS? I suspect it is because underneath your facades of social activism, you only care and think about the rights and needs of only one specific ethnicity group. I see it in your comments all the time, because you use ethnic words, names and terms to describe those you wish to help and you completely IGNORE those who need even more help, especially if they belong to a different ethnicity than you politically favor. THIS IS WHY MOST OF YOU ARE ETHICALLY WRONG. EVERY POOR PERSON, regardless of race, religion, gender or ethnicity, deserves your help and respect FAR MORE THAN the small set of 12 million “illegal” people (that you think are only one ethnicity, but they are not). To be MORAL you need to think about the poverty of the entire set of humanity and focus on how to best help 1 billion of the world’s poor. If you can’t think about ALL of them equally, then your arguments are flawed as well. All of you think only about 12 million “illegal” people, instead of the 6 billion in the entire world. That is why your arguments are feeble, and your loyalties misplaced. Very few of you can feel sorry for EVERY INDIVIDUAL WHO IS HARMED, and choose to feel sorry ONLY for a population of 12 million “illegal” immigrants.
Now let’s discuss WHO is harmed most by 12 million “illegal” immigrants and WHY.
I have to agree that sometimes unless writers have actually handle a situation, it seems easy to fix or opine….. 🙂
Elena I hear you say you want to address GLOBAL poverty and you want to make sure everyone wins.
How do you intend to prioritize actions so that GLOBAL POVERTY is the focus rather than just the “economic” status of 12 million “illegal” immigrants?
You cannot do both, without harming one group of poor people to help a smaller group of less poor people. Though you would wish it so, you cannot compartmentalize the effects of your actions. What you do for one segment of society, effects and impacts another. How do you determine who needs help the most? How do you ensure your actions do not harm the most innocent, while helping the least innocent, who just happen to belong to ethnicity groups that most people on this blog favor and support, to the detriment of ALL other individuals, especially 1 billion of the world’s poor.
I’ll tell you how, and I’ve been telling you, but few of you listen.
You have to do what is MOST ETHICAL FOR ALL INDIVIDUALS TAKEN AS AN ENTIRETY, ALL 6 billion of us, in order to help the MOST NEEDY 1 BILLION in poverty.
I will tell you how you do this.
First and foremost, you must decide what is “ethical” and what is not. Once you decide this for yourself, and society decides it for itself, you must abide by it in all cases of law, or led a “judge” decide WHO IS RIGHT and WHO IS WRONG and punish those who are wrong. Ethics and morality translate to law. Law is BY DESIGN crafted to help and improve the lives of ALL HUMANITY TAKEN AS A WHOLE, and has as a goal the lofty objective to treat fairly EVERY INDIVIDUAL COMPARED TO EVERY OTHER INDIVIDUAL. The courts and law deal with “individual” rights and wrongs and individual’s actions and accountability for those actions. Just as you have seen and blogged before, some people here point out only the 1% of so of the cases where the LAW is not always equitably enforced and not perfect in implementation (as some of you so clearly lament all the time to various extremes), while most of you IGNORE the 99% of the cases and the times where the law IS JUST and does ensure the innocent are not harmed by the unlawful.
SO FIRST and FOREMOST in all civilized societies (throughout time) LAW is created and enforced to impact the ethics and morality of an entire society (TAKEN AS A WHOLE and not as a priviliged subset), and to protect innocents from the “illegal” and globally harmful actions of “non-innocents”. When a priviliged subset dominates law, or ignores law, the law can become “unethical”. LAW is changed by society as it decides WHO IS HARMED the MOST by unethical and illegal behavior.
This is why first and foremost “illegal” immigration is “illegal” until society decides that “illegal” immigrants are HARMED MORE THAN “non-illegal” immigrants affected by the negative effects of “illegal” immigration.
1 billion people in poverty around the world, deserve the right to NOT BE HARMED by the actions of 12million “illegal” immigrants.
Let’s list how 1 billion people of poverty around the world are harmed far, far, more by “illegal” immigrants than THEY harm “illegals”.
First and foremost, The US is a land of opportunity, but NOT UNLIMITED OPPORTUNITY.
IT CAN BE DESTROYED, made less productive, misled, and politically undermined by ANY individuals who by ignorance or by malice wish to send it back to the dark ages.
We must control the rate at which POOR people take advantage of this opportunity, because if we get TOO MANY POOR (As in India and in China for example), their will be very little growth opportunity left, and very little wealth and growth out of poverty. OVERPOPULATION of poor people in disproportion to wealthy people, causes a society and a nation to DECAY INTO an IMPOVERISHED Nation. (our own nation has experienced this many times, and we were not always the wealthiest nation in the world through history).
When an “illegal” immigrant comes to the US AHEAD of a “legal” immigrant, who is from an even more impoverished part of the world (India and Asia for example), 12 million “legal” immigrants of some 1 billion impoverished people (as EQUALLY deserving indivuduals) who are even more poor than 12 million “illegal” immigrants are DENIED the American dream, by the “illegal” people who steal it from them. It is immoral to deny anyone equal opportunity and take from others what is not ours to have. That is what “illegal” people do to future “legal” immigrants. IT is a SOBER REALITY that we cannot let them ALL come because 1 BILLION poor people allowed immediately (or even in 25 years) into the US would DESTROY any concept of economic growth, capability to produce wealth and ability to help prevent poverty that comes as a direct by-product of CREATING WEALTH. To REMOVE POVERTY, YOU HAVE TO BE A RICH NATION, and figure out how to ETHICALLY distribute that wealth so it continues to grow, rather than decay into POVERTY. It is a delicate economic BALANCE dependent entirely on the RATIO of POOR PEOPLE to the RATIO of AVAILABLE NON-POVERTY JOBS.
Democracy and specifically the US is a jewel in a global cess pool of failed social philosophies, and cruel, criminal dictatorships, autocracies and monarchies, oblivious to the rights, happiness, and needs of individuals.
We cannot allow ANYONE into the US who does not understand democracy, does not support democracy and does not care more about individual rights than they care about their own gender, race, religion, ethnicity or PERSONAL GREED.
We MUST encourage and ALLOW only people into the US who want it to prosper, flourish, remain socially stable, democratic and focused on the rights and needs of all individuals the same regardless of their gender, race, religion, and ethnicity.
And ETHICALLY we must let everyone in FAIRLY, with controlled quotas, and allow the most NEEDY people in the impoverished parts of the world to come first (preferrably the most bright and most capable of being educated), BALANCED by an equal number of highly skilled “legal” immigrants who can keep innovation going to create wealth and PREVENT POVERTY by creating wealth.
How do “illegal” immigrants harm “more deserving” others in many other ways?
They keep them out of US universities. They take a LIMITED number of available student “seats” and claim them for themselves, even though they are “illegal” and have not “legally” applied for a student visa, a work visa, or a green card. They are thieves of educational opportunities that are not “UNLIMITED”. EVERY STUDENT regardless of race, gender, religion of ethnicity deserves an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY for education, but is not guaranteed and equal outcome because of their race, religion, gender of ethnicty or “Illegal” status. “illegal” students and children of “illegal” parents are DENYING HIGH QUALITY EDUCATION QUOTAS from impoverished but bright and EQUALLY deserving students FROM AROUND THE WORLD. As a result of thier “illegal” behavior, the US is denied the opportunity to obtain and offer college acceptance letters to 12 MILLION equally deserving potential students of HIGHLY IMPOVERISHED “LEGAL FAMILIES.
“illegal” immgrants are educational thieves, harming innocents around the world.
How else do they harm innocent people arounf the globe? How about economically? What has the latest housing crisis created by 25 years of “illegal” immigration done to the live and welfare of 1 billion impoverished people living the horror of a global economic meltdown, caused by 25 years of “illegal” activities in the US, the US job market, and the US housing industry tied to global ECONOMICS?
Some 40 million formerly “illegal” immigrants and some currently 12 million “illegal” immigrants are global financial thieves, taking wealth away from 1 billion far more impoverished people AROUND the GLOBE. All for their personal GREED and claim that only their specific ETHNICITY deserves the right to climb out of poverty and take what is not legally theirs to take.
How else do “illegal” immigrants harm the world’s innocents?
They practice job discrimmination.
They practice social discrimmination.
They create social pockets of ethnic group isolation
They support only one religion, over all others, and all individual rights to beliefs
They create political infrastructures that benefit only one ethnic group
They create militant terrorist groups, based on their gender, racial, ethnic or religious beliefs that ALL MEN ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL. THEY BELIEVE CERTAIN ETHNIC, GENDER, RACIAL or RELIGIOUS GROUPS ARE SUPERIOR and MORE DESERVING of WEALTH THAN OTHERS.
They create social conflict.
They create war in other parts of the world, by harmful actions they take inside the protection of US LAW.
They create black market economic networks based on their race, gender, religion or ethnicity networks.
They refuse to speak a common global language, claiming their own ethnic language is superior to all others.
They for the most part do not believe in democracy where the rights of ALL INDIVIDUALS are EQUALLY Important. They believe instead in racially, ethnically controlled autocracies and dictatorships dominated only by their OWN racial or religious political leaders.
They steal others identities for their own personal greed.
They increase the level of poverty around the world
They increase the degree of crime in neighborhoods because they increase the degree of poverty in neighborhoods the “illegally” move into.
They take what they want for themselves, regardless of how many “innocents” around the world they harm.
Too harsh. Illegal immigrants are not educational thieves. Let’s look at the alternatives. Illegal immigrants are here. Nothing I can do about it. Out of my control. Michael, do you suggest that they allow their children to run the streets during the school day? This country has woven into its foundations that all children will be educated. This concept didn’t happen over night but that is where we are now. We don’t look to see which parents are rich, poor, loved, or hated in a community. The children are educated and we, as Americans, consider this an investment in our culture.
What you have left out of your comments is the fact that laws can change with the stroke of a pen. Laws can change through representative government or through direct vote, such as a referendum. Laws are often not chiseled into stone. That indicates to me that laws are not absolutes.
I only want deserving (good students) residents of a state to be given in-state tuition. If a few of those receiving in-state tuition are either children of illegal immigrants or illegal immigrants themselves who want to change their status, then I am fine with that. I celebrate people’s thirst for knowledge and for becoming more educated.
Actually, I am asking that kids who have lived in the US to be treated like anyone else, regardless of immigration status. I am not asking for extras or special favors.
I also want to deal with the reality I have to live with. I know there are starving people in Darfur but that is a little off of my radar.
To help the world’s poor we must continue to be a wealthy nation, to seek and encourage the best and brightest of 6 billion people in the world to come to the best universities in the world, and to work in the most productive and wealth producing industries in the world. The poor will become wealthier as the most creative and most innovative people around the world create wealth, opportunity, political stability (because an unstable society and society in conflict and at war CANNOT create wealth).
We must ensure this wealth is Equitably distributed in such a way as to maximize growth and wealth, while minimizing poverty. If either get out of BALANCE, the RICH get richer and fewer in numbers and the poor get POORER and greater in numbers than the available “wealth creating” jobs.
If you want to help the world’s POOR, stop “illegal” immigration and start a “legal” society on a path to greater wealth production by sending the best and brightest to the best schools, while simultaneously encouraging neighborhoods to be “lawful”, ethical, and peaceful, and to pay ALL individuals a living “legal” wage instead of an “impoverished” “illegal” immigrant based wage, and social, economic infrastructure.
When you open your doors “legally” to the MOST deserving and MOST CAPABLE of all individuals in the world’s 6 billion people by being equitable and FAIR to ALL the same (provide equal opportunity, but not guarantee equal outcome for all), you will reduce global poverty the quickest it can be reduced. “illegal” immigration robs the world of this potential growth and opportunity.
None of you seem to EVER GET THIS.
“illegal” immigrants are here, but there is something we can do about it. Deport them and replace them with those who deserve the opportunity more. Its that simple and as close as an airplane ticket, and denial of a job that others deserve more.
When peole who are “illegal” are deported back to their countries, they do not roam our streets. The problems they create and the problems they bring with them, go back home with them. People move around the world every day. “illegals” can move back home, and frankly can move anywhere they choose, until they are legally allowed to be here in the US.
Moving is not punishment, nor cruel. It is simply adjusting to a new environment, while being denied an environment you are not legally entitled to, that others who follow law deserve more, until you follow law and claim what you are entitled to by law, fairly and equitably between ALL deserving individuals.
“illegal” people are not innocents. The victims they hurt (including the innocent students denied competitive educational spots) are the innocents. “illegal” people can go to school around the world, they are not denied education, but they are not entitled to “better” education before another “equally deserving but Legal student is entitled to the same education”.
There are universities around the world kids can go to, but only the most deserving should be allowed in the world’s best schools. Not because they are illegal, but because they are “legal” and EQUALLY DESERVING of the opportunity that any “illegal” student will deny them.
The children around the globe need educating too, not just the “illegal” kids here. Every “illegal” child denies an EQUAL education opportunity for an EQUALLY deserving “legal” child around the globe (including DARFUR) denied entry into the US because of the presence of so many “illegals”. To deny a “legal” child entry to the US because their are too many “illegal” children in the US is IMMORAL, UNFAIR and UNJUST to deny them EQUAL RIGHTS and DENY THEM EQUAL opportunity to improve their own indivudal pursuit of happiness. You cannot compartmentalize this sympathy, regarding who deserves more and who deserves least based on whether they are “illegal” and deserve some special privilige over others because they are “illegal”. THAT IS IMMORAL.
When laws change with a stroke of a pen that does not make them “FAIR” to the 6 billion EQUALLY DESERVING people around the globe, denied entry into the US because of too many “illegals” who did not compete fairly for the same limited opportunity. That is even MORE unethical as well. We are ALL equally deserving individuals.
“I only want deserving (good students) residents of a state to be given in-state tuition.”
Well, I only want deserving (good students) of the WORLD to be given an equal opportunity to have LEGAL ACCESS to in-state tuition, FAIRLY and equitably FOR ALL.
Michael, We cannot feed and educate the world. What do you have to say about Nelson Lopez who was born in the United States and had to fight for his in state tuition that was being denied to him?
I do not know of one case in Virginia where an ‘illegal’ took the place of a VA resident or a deserving foreign student. I actually do not think attending our institutes of higher learning is a right. I see it as very much of a priviledge. When you get down to it, legal and illegal are simply a matter of paper work when it comes to colleges and universities.
I believe we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t think what I am asking for is immortal.
M- perhaps our goals are the same, yours are just far broader in scope than mine are.
“The real issue is poverty “Rick”. If we can address global poverty than everyone wins!”
And how do we do that? By reducing American wages?
Global poverty is such a complex issue I can’t wrap my brain around it. The place to start working on global poverty is by enabling women to control their own reproduction. Reliable contraception is not available to much of the world’s population.
Rick, the only American salaries that need to be reduced are the extreme high paying CEO salaries that are so disproportionate to what the other workers make. I could slash and trash them easily.
I don’t even mind athletes getting huge salaries most of the time. They are destroying their bodies for our entertainment. But those arrogant ceos with the golden parachutes–arrrrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
It seems like its the Rep. Party with their anti-union platform that is trying to lower U.S. wages.
IVAN, THEY BOTH ARE.
MH of course we can’t feed and educate the world. That is why we need to control who does and who does not get an opportunity to improve themselves and their future by coming to the US. That is called “immigration law”.
What we can do instead of feed and educate the entire world, is make sure that the extremely limited resources made available to 12 million “illegal” immigrants who have taken those resources by stealing them, cannot just steal them from others more deserving and more in need.
I say to Nelson Lopez what I would say to EVERY OTHER college student regardless of race, religion, gender or ethnicity.
Are you Nelson Lopez the most qualified student (based on Grades, IQ, and SAT scores) to attend this University compared to ALL the applicants (including those with student visa’s) above a student capacity cutoff line regardless of your race, your gender, your religion or your ethnicity, and are you competing fairly because of who you are as an individual or are you asking for special considerations because you are in a special category because of the “illegal” status of your parents?
If the answer is yes, I deserve to be here because of my performance compared to all of those who applied (including international students with visa’s), then whether or not you must pay “out of state tuition” like all the other students who have foreign, international parents, depends on whether your parents live “legally” or “illegally” in this country, or not in this country at all.
If Nelson Lopez is a citizen by birth, and resident of a state for more than 3 years, then he is no different than any other student who is a citizen by birth and resident of a state for more than 3 years.
However if Nelson Lopez is NOT a citizen by birth, is not a legal resident, has no green card and has illegal, non-resident parents, then he is no different than any other student who IS NOT a citizen by birth, has no green card, and has foreign, alien parents, and who must attend a University on a student visa, He MUST compete fairly with other students for a student visa and must pay out of state tuition just like every other foreigner or “illegal” immigrant.
I do not feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for the students he is preventing from attending the University who are poorer than him, need the education more and deserve the opportunity more IF they are MORE QUALIFIED, they DESERVE an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to compete fairly for the SAME LIMITED RESOURCE that NELSON LOPEZ is stealing from them if he is an “illegal” immigrant.
It’s that simple, legal immigrants steal from no-one. “illegal” immigrants STEAL FROM everyone more qualified than they are. Legal students are unfairly DENIED University attendance because their are too many “illegal” students in the US.
Yes MH my goals are the same like yours to be fair to everyone, but not just to a subset of “illegal” immigrants, who take from others by the very nature of their “illegality”. And yes my morality and goals are just broader than yours and many others here are. Go talk to a deserving equally smart but highly impoverished kid in DARFUR, INDIA or CHINA, etc, etc, and then come back and tell me Nelson Lopez deserves more opportunity just because his parents snuck across the US border.
MH, true controlling reproduction rates and thus population does help in many cases, but the real goal and ULTIMATE MORALITY needs to be a capability to BALANCE the number of people IN POVERTY and who need jobs to get out of poverty, with the exact same number of “non-poverty” jobs that innovation and wealth creation can produce.
This balance changes with the rate of innovation and the rate of population growth. Get either of them out of balance and “extreme” Poverty is the result.
“illegal” immiration ultimately leads to “increased poverty” and even “extreme poverty” because it cannot create new innovative “non-poverty level” jobs.
If you want a nation to have more non-poverty level jobs, you MUST stop “illegal” immigration, but not stop (actually encourage) controlled “legal” immigration of the best and brightest the world has to offer.
Michael, I simply do not agree. Nelson is a US citizen.
Years ago I knew a family who escaped from an eastern block country. They swam through a river and eventually made their way to the United States and I am assuming they applied for and received political assylum since they were shot at on the way out of their country of origin. Are they were entitled to in state tuition which their kids got even though they were not all born here? I would say yes, and so is Nelson. Neither set of kids are responsible for the actions of their parents.
We have paid VA taxes all our adult lives, my husband is a graduate of one of the fne VA institutions and our almost 4.0 GPA son cannot even consider attending JMU, Tech or UVA. Even CNU is becoming more selective (over 3.8).
This is an insane conversation. VA public colleges can’t even meet the needs or won’t meet the needs of normal average/above average kids who have been brought up in the VA public schools system. They have chosen to fail their own. Charity begins at home, at least that’s what I was taught. Take care of your own then care for others…. all those handy maxims.
I’ve asked how many involved in this conversation are trying to get their child into a VA public college. If you are – continue to participate. If you are not, you might want to listen to those that are.
It’s easy to be an idealist until you need a piece of the pie you were so willing to hand over to someone else.
….and furthermore! Rick is the only one who has made any sense here.
If he is a citizen, then he should and very likely DOES qualify for in-state tuition like any other legal state resident. It doesn’t matter if a person is not responsible for their parents actions. All that matters is whether they are or are not “legal” residents of a state (either they are citizens or are carrying green cards) and have been living in the state paying taxes long enough to qualify for in-state tuition. If they do not qualify for in-state tuition, just like every one else, no different than anyone else who is NOT a legal resident (green card or us citizen), then they must pay “out of state tuition”. They are NOT DENIED an education. Whats your point?
Anyone who does not qualify FAIRLY in competition with ALL students based on their individual scholastic performance, does not deserve a special privilige ticket to get into college. For the same reason they do not deserve a special “in-state” tuition if they are not qualified “legal” residents of a state.
When you give him anything different than any other “legal” student, or treat him differently than any other “illegal” or foreign student, you deny everyone the right to fair and equal RIGHTS to an education and rights to fair and equal rights for “in-state tuition” given only to “in-state residents”.
Are you telling me you think he should get “in-state” tuition, just because he is a citizen but not a legal state resident for the required number of years, just because his parents are “illegal”? That would not be fair to all the other students who are citizens, but are not “in-state” residents.
I don’t get your point here. What is so different about Nelson, that he deserves a “waiver” to the law?
Nelson can get in after my kid and all his friends do.
Juturna, I just like you had to struggle to get my kids into universities that were playing favorites to “diversity quota” priviliged students based on their ethnicity, race, gender and religion. AT THAT POINT I REALIZED THAT DIVERSITY IS ILLEGAL and UNFAIR to ANY STUDENT of EQUAL IQ, Grades and SAT scores (around the world, and at home), who is qualified, competitive and deserves an education, but because of “diversity quotas” cannot get into their college of choice. I intend to make sure the LAW never lets that happen again, because just after they applied and got turned down (and I verified they did not have the lowest IQs, SAT scores and Grades, than other students who were admitted), the supreme court ruled against admission offices that where applying racial balance quotas, based on race and ethnicity, in the name of DIVERSITY, that was an “illegal” act.
They RULED ALL students are entitled to EQUAL opportunity to attend the university regardless of race, gender, religion or ethnicity, and YOU CANNOT ENGINEER EQUAL OUTCOMES (numbers) between races, gender, religions and ethnicities without harming the INNOCENT VICTIMS of those illegal diversity policies.
Giving prefernce to “illegal” immigration students because they are “illegal” is no different than giving preference to “diversity” students because of the race or ethnicity they belong to.
THAT IS MY ARGUMENT, and THAT IS WHY IT IS IMMORAL.
It’s not just diversity, it’s dollars. They are catering to out of state kids for more money.
..and the community colleges are not going to have room for everyone after this year as there will be an overflow of rejected kids going to them.
Nelson is a US citizen. I do not know his gpa. Nelson was not out of state. I believe he was admitted. The question was over his tuition rate.
Michael, right now the quota seems to be regional. NOVA, in addition to being able to throw an election because of its population, produces a huge number of highly qualified students. If all of them were accepted based on gpa, They would use up all the freshman spots. Therefore, regardless of what we are told, there are NOVA quotas.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/13/AR2008031303674.html
This issue has been resolved.
If Nelson lived in the state, is a citizen, and paid VA State taxes and he is over 18 and no longer a dependant of his parents, then he is entitled to in-state tuition. If he is still a dependent of his parents then his “in-state” tuition rate is based on his parents tax dependency status and state of legal residence just like mine is. MY KIDS are treated no differently, their “in-state” tuition rights are based on where I LIVE, NOT WHERE THEY LIVE, if they are still my state-tax recorded dependants. Nelson has two legal choices, he can emancipate from his parents before age 21, in which case he establishes his own residency requirement wherever HE lives, or he can pay “out of state” tuition rates because that is the status of his parents based on WHERE THEY LEGALLY LIVE, Just like mine is based on where I legally live. (Their legal residence and in-state tuition benefit for their children is in another country, no different than if they or I live in another state or country and have no legal residency). MY KIDS have to pay out of state tuition, to any University out of my state of legal residence (or out of my country of legal residence) because of where I LEGALLY live. A person only has ONE legal address of record, so no-one is allowed to double dip. Nelson is treated no differently than my KIDS are regarding “out of state” tuition. Nelson’s parents do not legally live in this state. I do not legally live in other states. Nelson must pay “out of state tuition” for states his parents do not legally live in. MY KIDS must pay “out of state tuition” for states I do not legally live in, until they emancipate themselves or turn 21 then they establish thier own legal residence benefits.
THIS IS the issue you claim is resolved. It is not. It is not FAIR or EQUITABLE to any other students who have parents who live out of state and are not legal residents of this state, and who’s kids must pay “out of state tuition”, for Nelson to get “in-state” tuition when his parents are not legal residents of this state any more than other parents who are not legal residents of this state. Furthurmore, Nelson gets “in-state” tuition rates and benefits for the country his parents are legal residents of. MY KIDS DO NOT get “in-state” tuition rates for any of those countries, Nelson’s parents are legal residents of.
Again what is your point? This is about EQUITABLE fairness, for ALL students to go to any college they want to, anywhere in the world. Their is only one place they qualify for “in-state” tuition, and that is in the state of declared “legal” residence. Nelson deserves no different or special priviliges and opportunities than my kids deserve.
NOVA quotas in ANY FORM are Illegal and immoral and hurt unfairly ANY CHILD trying to compete fairly for an opportunity to get the best education. NOVA quotas, official or “unofficial” are illegal. I hope anyone harmed by such quotas, especially quotas based on “illegal” immigration priviliges, that are not based on their scholastic performance, SAT and grades, sues such colleges for discrimmination against their individual rights to Equal Educational opportunity.
Are you trying to tell me NOVA quotas are justified and moral?
I stated my point. Any yes it is resolved. Nelson did not ask for special priviledges.
Actually some kids can go to college with in-state tuition in 2 states. If divorced parents live in different states then the child can use either parent, at least in Virginia.
Good luck with those kids Michael. Regional quotas have been a problem in this area for decades.
Nelson’s parents have paid taxes, with the food they buy, the clothes they purchase, the rent or mortgage they pay. For all intensive purposes, Nelson is as much a resident of VA than other child born here. THAT simple!
19% of the students at UVA are from NJ. Shall we declare war on NJ? It is obvious why they are here– The difference in 9k and 29k. Money talks.
And if we didn’t favor NJ students I might not be contributing to this blog. That is my clue for the day.
WHAT IF NELSON’s PARENTS COUNTRY of legal residence was in ENGLAND and he was entitled to “in-state tuition to attend the most prestigious university in England, but his parents lived in Virginia. MY KIDS would not be entitled to “in-state tuition rates” to the most prestigious University in England, but NELSON would be.
ARE you going to tell me that even though Nelson’s parents pay Va state tax, but are still legal residents of England, he is entitled to an “in-state tuition rate” in Virginia AND in England’s most prestigious schools, but my KIDS are not entitled to such double dipping? Your belief that Nelson is entitled to “in-state tuition, when his parents have a legal residence “out of state” is flawed for this very reason. You can’t apply your logic to world-wide fairness to ALL Kids seeking quality educations AROUND the GLOBE they can afford and you ignore the law to claim Nelson deserves some special privilige my KIDS are not entitled to.
Silly argument MH, New Jersey Students ALL pay “out of state” tuition rates in Virginia (If thier parents are legal residents of New Jersey). Why is Nelson to be treated any different than they are? What makes him so special? His parents “illegal” status?
Again, HE might be a resident, but his parents are not. I and my kids are treated no differently by other states, than Nelson and his parents are treated by this state. My kids might be a resident of another state, (or country for that matter), but I am not a legal resident of those states or countries, and my kids are not entitled to “in-state” tuitions in any state or country I am not a legal resident of. If you do not legally reside in a state, you and your KIDS are not entitled to “in-state tuition”, unless they are emancipated before 18 or are over 21. If you allow any special privilige or “waiver” that Nelson may get because of his parents “illegal” status, then that privilige is UNFAIR to ALL other students other than Nelson AND ALL other PARENTS other than Nelson’s parents. That is discrimmination and unfairness regarding Equal Educational OPPORTUNITY. IF we allow a special “waiver” for Nelson, to get “in-state” tuition rates when his parents are not legal residents of a state, then we must allow ALL students to get “in-state” tuition rates when their parents are not legal residents of a state, including the PARENTS of kids in New Jersey, going to UVA (and who are paying the higher tuition).
Tell the people pissed off at the NJ situation their arguement is silly. It was not part of my arguement, just an aside my husband told me about.
Nelson is a United States citizen living his entire life in VA. If you can get through 17-18 years in Virginia without paying taxes, please fill me in on how to do it.
Let’s look at military kids. My friend from Oregon struts Oregon tags but her kids can go to VA schools with in-state tuition. The same kid can go to school in Oregon as an Oregon student. I doubt if this luxury will be stripped away when the kid turns 21.
We don’t all get to go to the schools we want to attend. Sometimes we aren’t the right gender, sometimes we don’t have enough money, sometimes we don’t have the grades, sometimes others beat us to the punch.
MH, You are groping for straws now. Face it, you want to give “illegal” people and “illegal” families benefits that “legal” people and “legal” families don’t have. I suspect it is because you feel sorry for “illegal” people, but do not feel sorry for “legal” people, US citizens or legal residents who’s families also deserve your sympathy, maybe even more.
In the case of military families, that “residency” is a military benefit, not given to ALL other parents who choose not to join the military. In the military you still have to claim a state of legal residency for tax purposes (most choose Florida or Texas because they have no state taxes). It is a military service benefit that service KIDS are treated as in-state residents. If Nelson’s parents joined the US military or legally applied for citizenship or a green card they would then have the right to pass this entitlement down to their kids UNTIL they turn 21.
ARE you naively and potentially “disrespectfully” saying Kids of “illegal parents” are entitled to the same educational benefits and opportunities for financial benefits as military families?
That argument does not hold water and does not justify FAIRNESS in educational benefits for all of the other 306 million non-military parents in the US (or the other 6 billion people in the world for that matter who do not get “in-state” tuition benefits for their impoverished, but possibly even more deserving kids to attend US schools and become legal US residents).
They are DENIED equal educational opportunities, because of too many “illegal” people in the US, preventing them from applying for US residency and having thier kids given legal “in-state” residency benefits to improve their own lives. They have to pay “out of state”, and “international rates” too.
You can get through 17-18 years in Virginia without paying income taxes by being “illegal” and not reporting your income to the IRS (at your own risk).
That has nothing to do with “in-state tuition benefits” you legally pass to your kids that are based entirely on your legal residency status. Many people pay “token” taxes in other countries and other states, but are not entitled to “in-state” tuition rates, except in their declared state or country of legal residency. Again the issue is “passing of benefits” and legal entltlements to your KIDS. “in-state tuition” is one of those benefits passed to kids based on legal residency requirements.
Ultimately we can choose what state or even country we want to live in, (when we are legally entitled to do so), and IF we want to send our kids to Harvard or Yale, we move to the state or country that has Harvard or Yale, and LEGALLY change our state or country of legal residence (even our passport and citizenship when we are legally entitled to do so).
The issue is what we do “illegally” and what we do “legally” that determines FAIRNESS and EQUALITY in educational opportunities around the world, with fariness to ALL, and these must be applied based on Equitable LAW, ethics and morality to ALL people seeking education around the world.