116 Thoughts to “WP: Conflicting Accounts of an ICE Raid in MD”

  1. Lucky Duck

    To the contrary…”In the words of his court declaration. Giove said he went in after them and “determined who was to be removed from teh store by their clothing and the fact that they wer hiding beind the coffee pot”.

    Front section, page A10, 5th column, 3rd paragraph. Washington Post.

  2. Lucky Duck

    By the way, El Guapo, you never addressed the fact that 10 of the men were fugitives. Do we just ignore that fact?

  3. El Guapo

    So you concede that nowhere does it say that anyone was “crouching”. Very good. We’re making progress. You should really be ashamed of yourself for making up that “crouching down” crap. That was really pitiful. A discussion is futile if parties make up fabrications. And what good does it do? Who learns from that type of dishonesty?

    And there were a lot of things that neither I didn’t address. Was the guy pouring Decaff or mountain grown? It doesn’t say. I guess it doesn’t matter. You see our justice system is set up in a way to protect the innocent from oppression. Cops are not supposed to detain someone just because they’re pouring a cup of coffee. Does it mean that sometimes it’s harder to catch the bad guys? Yes. Could they catch more bad guys if they just detained everyone who gets off at Metro Center, check ’em for warrants and then release them? Yes. They’d catch a lot of bad guys. But at what cost?

    You may have a different opinion (until it happens to you of course but that goes without saying). It may be your opinion that law men should be permitted to detain everyone in a store pouring a cup of coffee believing that inconveniencing the innocent is a small price to pay for catching bad guys. If that’s where we disagree, then that’s cool. Unfortunately for you (and fortunately for everyone else) our founding fathers did not agree with that.

  4. Conservador

    I see the unhappiness of some Americans with Hispanics coming into the county. Some are right and it is because many Latinos are not acting properly, but I also notice that many resent the fact that the great majority of Latinos have in some way prosperous lives. That has to make people not too pleased about their own success. Someone asked me, “how it is possible that some recent immigrants have acquired almost as much or more than me.” If I was one of those people, I could see myself being unkind to those that don’t assimilate or speak proper English. I might have the potential to hate them because of my own misfortune.
    I have a Conservative friend that dislikes Latinos that are successful. I hear his position but, I do not share the resentment that this causes in him. I know, sometimes he wonders how some Latinos, sometimes, with minimum school and shaky English are capable of doing better than him.
    There was another associate of mine who had my business account. I found that his behavior towards minorities is not something that I consider appropriate. He doesn’t have my business account anymore.
    As Latinos become established in the county, they will be able to set the terms of their relationships, socially, and in business and politics. People who don’t give a crap if Latinos spend 3 or 5 days in jail by mistake might find themselves in a tough place. That day will come and I will be watching my fellow Republican conservative friends wonder what has happened to their life in the county.

  5. ShellyB

    Rick: I knew there was good in you (=

    Slow: it’s racial profiling because, let’s face it, a white guy standing there stirring his coffee would not have been stuffed in that van. Did you read the article on the front page of the Post today? They ICE official who did this lied to investigators.

    I understand if you don’t put as much emphasis on fairness as other people. But you do have to recognize that racial profiling is unconstitutional, even if you’re alright with it.

  6. michael

    Who said this is unlawful detainment? This is why it is imperitive for the US to create national ID cards that “immediately” identify “legal” people from “illegal” people, (who presumably will not be able to get legal ID cards), to present at ALL encounters with police and INS agents who are trying to do their lawful jobs. People with legal identity will be immediately released, idiots….

    It is people who advocate for continued obscurity and “abstraction” of “immigrant” concepts instead of “illegal” immigrant and legal resident concepts, by preferring anonymous identity systems and issuance of driver’s licenses to “illegals” that cause these problems of identity confusion.

    The fault is in the “politics” of “illegal” lovers.

  7. ShellyB

    Also, if you read the article, there was a big problem with the superior officer chewing the ICE squad out telling them they weren’t meeting their quota for picking up enough people. So an hour later they went to 7-11 and picked up anyone they saw there who looked Hispanic. That’s just not right.

  8. michael

    With “legal” resident identity cards there IS NO RACIAL PROFILING POSSIBILITY…

  9. “Giove said he went in after them and “determined who was to be removed from teh store by their clothing ”

    I must have missed something. How does clothing indicate whether or not you are a citizen?

  10. Censored bybvbl

    ShellyB, nothing good seems to come from giving ICE/police/law enforcement agencies quotas. It’s a directive destined for abuse whether speed traps in Georgia or ICE raids in Baltimore. And the article did mention the contradictory stories the agents told.

  11. Lucky Duck

    El Guapo, If you like to have a debate, don’t act like that. I have been nothing but respectful in our discussion and if you cannot be the same, we are done. I have not, nor ever been “dishonest” in my postings on this blog, so don’t play games.

    I said crouching without using a quote from the article. When I did quote it, the person was seen “hiding” behind the coffee pot. Unless that person is a “little person” how else does one hide behind a coffee pot?

    As for the other part of your “lesson”, its unfortunate you could not be more serious than wondering if it was decafe or regular. You never answered or addressed the fact that 10 were fugitives from justice. Do we just overlook that because they were Hispanic?

    I have no problems with fugitives, regardless of who they are, being taken into custody. If one of them is “hiding behind the coffee pot” (notice the quotes) and draws attention to themselves, so be it. They had their day in court and decided not to show. We all have to pay for our actions.

  12. Alanna

    Okay, you have ICE officers concerned about quotas and their orders to go round up some individuals. The officers express their feelings to superiors and they’re ignored. Now, there are conflicting stories about what happened. And at a minimum a legal person ends up in jail for 18 days? It’s a recipe for disaster.

    Michael,
    Tell me what a US ‘citizen’ looks like? Guess it can’t be a hispanic man loitering at the 7-11 or grabbing a cup of java.

  13. SecondAlamo

    Oh come on! This was the most peaceful enforcement of the law I’ve ever seen on video. The way I see it people complaining are basically saying it doesn’t matter how you enforce the law, we’ll find something to gripe about. Essentially trying to prevent enforcement of the law through bogus charges. Just admit it and stop with the excuses.

  14. Elena

    Hey, did anyone else notice the “moonbat” expression by Slowpoke? Hmmm, I seem to recall a dear friend using that particular expression alot 🙂

    Lucky Duck, you know I send my heartfelt respect out to you, but on this one, I have to respectfully disagree. First, as far as I can tell, no one was “hiding” behind a coffee pot. Now, I guess if you were a “little person”, such a possiblity might exist, however, from the video, clearly, people were pouring cups of coffee. Now, when I pour a cup of coffee, I normally stand BEHIND the coffee pot 🙂 To do otherwise would be quite ridiculous. It seems pretty clear cut, the guy was HISPANIC, it was ASSUMED he was a day laborer. He was detained for THREE days while his wife must have been frantic over his disappearence. Life wasn’t hard enough with a child fighting cancer?

    The downfall of this country is NOT going to come from day laboreres, the downfall of this country will come from lobbyists who have poisened our democratic process and an economic crisis that we have yet to see how we are going to make it out. Our collective energy should be dedicated to dealing with violent offenders. There is a new industry coming, its about paying private jails to house all the “undocumented” aliens that are picked up in raids or by other means. I just see a recipe for a human rights disaster coming.

  15. SecondAlamo

    Alanna,

    You’re right. If the vast majority of illegal aliens are from South of the border, then that’s no excuse for not rounding up little white haired old Anglo ladies and cart them off to jail also. You make great sense, and just think of how efficient that would be in apprehending the true illegals. Now do you see how absurd your problem with profiling sounds. Of course we’re going to round up Latino men long before we go after Anglos. When we find that there are hundreds of non-English speaking Polish men hanging out at every 7-11 who paddled here on rafts, then we’ll start picking them out of a crowd. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a case of profiling isn’t it!

  16. Moon-howler

    If there are ice raids, then things like this are going to happen. My concern is if the man was a legal resident, why did it take 3 days for him to prove his legality? Even if he spoke no English, there are translators. I am not even concerned that he got caught up in a sweep. I am concerned that people disappear with no way to contact anyone to help them with their plight.

    Sweeps have gone on for a long time. Drug sweeps in the 60’s and 70’s come to mind. If you look like a hippie and were in the wrong place at the wrong time…you got caught in the net. Appearance has always been part of legal profiling–that and behavior.

    What bothers me is the fact that there are all the ice raids, spending millions of dollars and for what?
    See the article. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/18/justice-department-fail-enforce-deportation-orders/

    It reminds me of the PWC Immigration Resolution. All they seem to do is scare people, cause ill feelings but there is no goal accomplished.

    Why even bother.

  17. SecondAlamo

    Oh, and the guy who was detained for 3 days (assuming he was legal), who do you think is paying the medical bills for his son’s care? It’s basically the same people who rounded him up. How about some outrage on that issue? Multiply that by millions, and you can see how that doesn’t help anyone but the people getting the freebees when everyone else whose helping pay his bills are fearing for their jobs. That’s the system some here so despise. Sometimes that’s the price you pay for being a US citizen. For some it’s all the benefits, and no obligations, what a country!

  18. Alamo, have you become permanently unhinged, or has a someone taken over your anti-immigrant talking point supply duties?

    The fact that the man’s son was in the hospital with leukemia is not a rhetorical advantage for you, no matter how much you try to twist it.

    As I’ve tried to explain other posters on this blog, it doesn’t reflect very well on your cause when you take a reactive and defensive position in response to reports of racism, racial violence, or racial profiling.

    It’s okay to admit that these things are wrong. If you cannot bring yourself to do so, then just keep quiet. If there is any moral or legal underpinning to your immigration perspective, you should be able to oppose illegal immigration and oppose racism at the same time (by the way, this is the quandary and the impasse that caused Robb Pearson to rethink his position on the issue).

    You are not personally responsible for what happened. The Washington Post did not write this story to accuse you of racism. If you behave as if you somehow the target of this news story, you are simply planting in our minds a connection between extreme anti-immigrant belief systems and the erosion of the Equal Protection clause of our Constitution in an era of undue scapegoating and hysteria.

  19. SecondAlamo

    WHWN,

    Simple fact: In the vast majority of cases illegal immigrants are of Latin origin. Why? Because they simply WALK across our Southern border! Why on earth do you have a problem with linking illegal immigration and Latinos? It’s simple geography not racism. Geesh!

  20. Moon-howler

    2nd, many other nationalities simply overstay visas while visiting here. I would say that we tend to think of illegal immigrants as being Latinos because we know they can cross our borders. We assume other people are legal because of the geography. That might be a false assumption if recent statistics are to be believed.

    I don’t know. I disagree with both ‘sides’ on this one.

    2nd, do you have evidence that medicaid is paying for the the child’s treatment? Do you feel that way about schips recipients? What are the alternatives?

  21. Elena

    Second Alamo,
    On what basis are you determining he is not paying for his son’s medical care?

  22. This incident is another glaring example why the people here who support 287g should rethink their position.

    Simply put, law enforcement officers will engage in racial profiling and then lie about it after the fact. It happens all the time. This time, we have the benefit of videocameras to catch these officers in lie after lie after lie.

    The same concept applies in 287g. Law enforcement officers will use it in situations to arrest hispanics in order to check their status, whereas if the individual was blond haired and blue eyed, they might just get a warning.

    In the case of this video, we all know that a white person would not have been arrested.

  23. ShellyB

    Mackie, when you speak in plain language, I understand where you’re coming from.

    Second Alamo, if we started doing raids on people who look like they might be investment fraud perpetrators, I have a feeling they might throw you in a van.

  24. ShellyB

    Elena and Lucky Duck, the “hiding behind the coffee pot” story was shown to be a lie by the video tape, as reported in the Post article. Somebody should link that. As I said, there were white people in the store who were not thrown in the van. I think that says it all. I couldn’t imagine having this happen to me just because of the way I look.

    Elena, looks like Slowpoke made a slip. Either he’s a Gospel Greg clone, or Gospel Greg himself has way too much time on his hands.

  25. Elena

    Agreed ShellyB, unless you are a “little person”, i.e dwarfism, it was simply not a credible charge. The man was clearly pouring a cup of coffee, as WE all would pour a cup of coffee.

    LOVE the idea of investment fraud perps being thrown in a VAN 🙂

  26. ShellyB

    Okay Elena, here’s a test. Racial profiling seems to indicate that most investment fraud perps are pudgy white males. A group of seething angry anti-fraud activists writes a law that directs the police to question pudgy white males on sight. Later the law is changed so that they only have to question pudgy white males if there is probable cause, based on their attire, to believe they are guilty of bank fraud.

    Do you support the law?

    How about if the fed’s are instructed by their superiors to go out and round up people who look like investment fraud perp’s? If they head over to the golf club and throw everyone in vans, are you going to say, “Good they deserved it for being white, pudgy, and in the wrong place at the wrong time?”

  27. Elena

    ShellyB, your’e killin’ me!!!!!

  28. They got the guy hiding behind the coffee…but how could they miss the guy skulking behind the doritos? And what about the woman crouching stealthily behind the chewing gum? What kind of law enforcement are we paying for here?

  29. ShellyB

    In other words, hear me now oh anti-immigrant crazies of PWC: Don’t try to defend racial profiling. It leads you to ridicule and ruin.

  30. ShellyB

    “skulking behind the doritos” LOL.

    See Mackie, when you use humor and/or calm normal language, you make a lot of sense.

  31. michael

    Moonhowler you are correct. You usually are correct and fair in your analysis, unlike some of your friends, you take the middle ground approach that intelligently looks at both sides of the problem. I highly respect you for that.

  32. michael

    The only thing I think you ever make a mistke on is supporting language that indicates we as a society should give a “break” to “illegal” immigrants. I seriously disagree with you on this one issue only. “illegal” activities are illegal (by law) because they harm society and increase the liklihood of pervsasive crime. I don’t think any of your associates get that, as are seriously harming society as a result of that logic flaw.

  33. michael

    WHWN you are DIRECTLY on target. I applaude your understanding of the “illegal” issue in your last quote. I think that is why we seem to have developed some form of mutual self-respect for the others opinions.

  34. michael

    Mackie, using WHWN’s flawless logic it is very responsible to support 287G, support legal immigration, stop “illegal” immigration and stop racism, gender, religious and ethnic preference and discrimmination and be absolutely ethical and morally correct in ALL of these views at the same time.

    That is MY position, always has been, and I’m sticking to it, until the law enforces ALL of the above equally.

  35. Lucky Duck

    I like the 287(G) program and I hope it stays. I don’t know how anyone can be against deporting criminals from our society when they have no legal right to be in this country. How do you justify a criminal being released to again harm innocent people?

    When someone is asked if they are in the country legally and they reply “no”, ICE agents are permitted to detain and ask further questions. I don’t have any problem with that.

    When 46% of people hanging out in one area are fugitives (10 out of 24) I am ok with them being detained, investigated and given a hearing if entitled and if necessary, deported after they skipped out on their hearing date. They had their chance and threw it away.

    I also wonder why nobody else mentions that fact of 10 being fugitives and seem to be ok with them just hanging around the 7/11.

  36. Censored bybvbl

    “How do you justify a criminal being released to again harm innocent people?”

    Lucky Duck, that’s a question best asked of the courts. It seems the decision on whether someone’s a flight risk rests there. What are the least serious charges that would make someone a “fugitive alien”? Having been found in the country illegally? Would that alone do it? If so, although some of the fugitives could be guilty of serious crimes, some could just have been found here illegally without having committed any other crime. They would have been ordered deported or said they would leave and then didn’t. Could that be the case?

  37. Lucky Duck

    Censored, there are a variety of ways to become a “fugitive alien” under ICE. First, and the most common, is to have been caught in country illegally and released under a signed promise to appear for your hearing date. If you fail to appear, you are considered a fugitive.

    In addition, ICE also obtains and serves some criminal warrants. Being named in one of those warrants also makes you a fugitive.

    If you are in country illegally and come into contact with ICE, at that point you are not a fugitive because the government or no agency even knew you were in the country.

    We’ll have to disagree on releasing criminals back into society. If someone acts in a criminal matter and they don’t belong here, I do not see any reason American society should extend a welcoming hand to them.

    By the way, the decision whether to release them back into society is NOT made by the Criminal case judge, it made by an Immigration Court judge after a “detainer” is placed on the individual by ICE.

  38. ShellyB

    Michael, those are good points. 287g works fine if we can trust law enforcement not to abuse power. I have trouble with the idea of these guys going to 7-11 and arresting all the Hispanics. So, if you have a law that seems on paper to be non-discriminatory, but in practice, it can become very unfair.

    I know ICE is not exactly the same as 287g, but this could easily happen in PWC or Manassas City with the laws we have now. I don’t like the idea of arresting someone who looks Hispanic just so you have the right to check their status. That defeats the purpose of the “neutering” we thought was such a great victory. But again, the problem is with the way the officers apply the law, not the law.

  39. ShellyB

    Is this a good analogy? What if we passed a law that people under 25 aren’t allowed to use cell phones and drive at the same time, and male police officers used this as an excuse to pull over attractive looking women and find out their age and maybe ask for their number. That’s an abuse of power, but does it mean the law itself is bad?

  40. Moon-howler

    Thank you Michael. I try to see both sides of most questions.
    Mackie, the skulking beneath the Doritos killed me also.
    Lucky Duck, I appreciate the way you cut through all the red tape with these complex issues.

    I often don’t understand the mechanics behind some of these things to really have a strong opinion. For example, why did the ICE crew go to the 7-11? What were the specific orders?

    I think we need to come to a common understanding of a legal definition of racial profiling before the conversation takes on any validity. As I understand it, race or ethnicity can be a component of searches, it just cannot be the only component. Someone straighten me out. I am sure my understanding is not correct.

  41. Lucky Duck

    When the Prince William Police Department was instructed in the original and subsequent Immigration training, characteristics such as the failure to speak English was listed and approved by the County Attorney’s office, the State Attorney General’s Office and the US Attorney’s Office as a basis, along with other factors, in determining whether or not to continue questioning a person about their immigration status. Chief Deane noted this fact in his meetings with all the different groups.

    Now before everyone gets up in arms, not speaking English would apply to any ethnic group that was in the County. So while some here may feel that such an action was targeted towards those speaking Spanish, in a legal sense, it is/was to be applied regardless of the primary language spoken instead of English. Based upon Supreme Court decisions on exactly this issue, it was ruled NOT to be considered racial profiling when considered with other factors, not used simply alone.

    So its easy to “see” racial program through a video and proclaim it to be so. But if some one is loitering around a 7/11 in front of clearly posted signs (in Spanish and English) and when questioned about that violation and cannot answer or understand English, taken together with the legal violation, the immigration questions will start flowing, particularly from ICE agents because that is what they do.

  42. When the Prince William Police Department was instructed in the original and subsequent Immigration training, characteristics such as the failure to speak English was listed and approved by the County Attorney’s office, the State Attorney General’s Office and the US Attorney’s Office as a basis, along with other factors, in determining whether or not to continue questioning a person about their immigration status.

    It should not be a factor in any way, shape, or form. Failure to speak english means nothing. The notion that it must be used with other factors is only a transparent attempt to obfuscate what is clearly racial profiling.

    The fact that a bunch of lawyers support a policy just means they think they can defend it in court. It says nothing about the righteousness of the policy. Not so long ago, lawyers could and did argue in court that blacks could not marry whites, didn’t they?

  43. As the country grows more and more bilingual, and especially as certain areas, like the southwest, grow more predominantly hispanic, spanish will continue to erode the dominance of the english language until it finally supplants it. I think one city already declared spanish the official language. Hopefully, more will follow suit. And the old farts on the Supreme Court will have to eat their own excrement instead of feeding it to us.

  44. Lucky Duck

    Unfortunately the Supreme Court disagrees with you. So until that day occurs, keep your English up to date and a valid license.

  45. The Supreme Court is made up of political appointees.

    If anyone with a badge wants to speak to me, they need to learn Spanish, as I reserve the right to refuse to speak to them in English.

  46. Elena

    Lucky Duck,
    I think my follow up post directly addresses my feelings about ICE and “fugitives”. Now a fugitive who has committed a felony, especially if it is violent, needs to be taken off the streets. THat isn’t an immigration issue in my mind. Furthermore, I would rather all these resources be FOCUSED on such criminals, not based on their legal status, but rather their propensity for violence. Surely there are more heinous crimes happening that demand our collective energy.

  47. El Guapo

    “But if some one is loitering around a 7/11 in front of clearly posted signs (in Spanish and English) and when questioned about that violation and cannot answer or understand English, taken together with the legal violation, the immigration questions will start flowing, particularly from ICE agents because that is what they do.”

    Evidently going to 7-11 to get a cup of coffee and having brown skin is enough for the ICE to detain you. We’ve heard of DWB – driving while black or driving while brown. This is GTSEAPCOCWB: going to 7-11 and pouring a cup of coffee while brown.

  48. El Guapo

    “I would rather all these resources be FOCUSED on such criminals, not based on their legal status, but rather their propensity for violence.”

    This may be the most offensive part of the story and video. Rather than chasing down those that pose a significant threat to society, these officials just picked up a van load of Hispanic men to meet a quota.

  49. This is my latest round of fighting on the Washington Post comments page. For those who have not read the accompanying article, it has a great deal more information that the video embedded above.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/17/AR2009021703451.html

    Norski, thank you for responding to the CONTENT of this news article, rather than simply regurgitating talking points from anti-immigration websites as so many others have done here.

    I fully understand your rationale in favor of racial profiling: (1) If we know or become convinced that a particular ethnic group is more likely to be guilty of certain crimes (such as terrorism) or civil misdemeanors (such as being in this country without proper documentation), and, (2) if it is a priority to apprehend these individuals, WHY SHOULDN’T we legalize racial profiling and instruct law enforcement to round up everyone who fit those ethnic profiles?

    That is the discussion we should be having on this page. It mirrors a similar discussion we had a few decades ago, when, if a witness reported that a Black male had committed a crime, the police went out and arrested every Black male in the region as a shortcut to solving the crime. This was eventually ruled to be unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment which guarantees equal protection under the law to all persons in United States territory.

    I would argue that upholding our Constitution is more important than meeting arrest quotas, which was the root cause of the travesty of justice identified in this newspaper article.

    But I want to acknowledge your articulate argument to the contrary, which demonstrates that you have read and comprehended the newspaper article to which you are responding. This puts you in a class by yourself among those on this page who are singularly concerned about the immigration issue.

  50. hello

    The fact that ICE can roll up on a 7-11 during the day, round out 25 guys and find that 10 are fugitives and the rest (except for 1) are here illegally is amazing. I feel for the one guy who was just getting coffee. The fact that it took 3 days to sort his status out sucks and something needs to be done to make that process easier. However, getting these guys off of the street, especially the 10 fugitives, is good… isn’t it? The two 7-11’s by my house on rt.1 usually have about 30 or 40 guys at any given time. Just imagine how many of them are fugitives. That’s a scary thought for me and my family. I feel that if you think that this ‘raid’ is a bad thing you obviously don’t have to deal with it on a daily basis.

    Would you let your kids walk down the street to get some ice cream at a 7-11 where there could be 15 to 20 fugitives standing around? Didn’t think so.

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