Let’s take another break from structure. What do you, the readers and contributors, want to discuss? How about March Madness? The weather? The cherry blossoms/parade? Court-ordered psychological exams? Gardening? Spring Break plans? A new recipe? Reporting in from Committee of 100 or the health care symposium?
Have a go at it. Inquring minds want to know.
What is the Committee of 100 anyway? Should I care? Serious question by the way.
http://www.pwc100.com/home_page.htm
Has the city school board passed a budget yet? I have seen nothing in the paper about it.
Thanks Cindy. It is sort of hard to explain. A link is worth a thousand words.
APWCR, actually this blog evolved out of a presentation at the Committee of 100 in Feb. 2008
Maybe Alanna will retell the story.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5076637759048192623&hl=en%3Ehttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5076637759048192623&hl=en
Just mad as hell even thinking about having to go through another Amnesty push soon. Our elected officials are all crooks and scumbags.
What else is on your mind, Rick? Going to see the cherry blossoms? Something to take your mind off amnesty? If a fine has to be paid, (Like a big one)would you consider that amnesty?
I am unfortunately doing my taxes this weekend.
There is one path to citizenship for illegal aliens that I would support. If a person who is in the U.S. illegally takes an oath of loyalty to the U.S. and serves honorably (i.e. receives an honorable discharge after at least three years of service) in the U.S. military, then I would agree that the person should become a U.S. citizen.
No, a fine is not acceptable to me no matter how big. The only acceptable scenario is, you leave and you go to the back of the line with everyone else. You receive no reward for cheating. We’ve tried this “comprehensive” approach of rearding cheating before.
Other things on my mind :
How to quickly create an authentication mechanism on the small web application we’re putting on the public internet at my job.
Given that I’m enjoying “Extras” and Ricky Gervais and his crew’s podcasts so much, should I spring for the BBC “The Office” DVDs?
Kelly, I think that is fair. Now what of those who might not be able to physically serve? Would there be another option?
Rick, yes. My daughter both love “The Office” and think that it is the funniest show on TV. You deserve it. How about $22.95 with free shipping? I think season 1 is only 16.00
There is no immigration line. Thats what we have to fix.
You know what else we could be mad about? America’s past time, baseball, is becoming a global game, not just ours. 28 percent of Major League players are foreign born, and in the minors where the future stars play, 48 percent are foreign born.
What is worse, the World Baseball Classic is held during spring training when our players are not in shape, and we keep losing.
I think the American version of “The Office” is funny. I see it on TV and sometimes watch an episode on netflix. Some of the episodes I’ve seen were great. But I was referring to the British version of the show, which the American one was adapted from. Same characters pretty much, but British. Same general tone to the show. But the British version might be more genuinely moving emotionally, that seems to be the specialty of the creators.
Justin, or we could just not be mad. It is so energy consuming.
Have you ever seen that X-file of the Alien baseball player? He shape shifted into a black man, and played in the black bush leagues as a cover-up. It is my favorite x-file.
JustinT –
I’ve wondered why it was called the “World Series” when there were no teams from other countries participating. Maybe the name is finally making sense.
It’s great, isn’t it, that when pro-athletes are bought by US teams, there never seems to be any problem getting visas and work permits. Maybe the teams would be “more American” if it weren’t so easy to import “laborers in he fields”?
The World Series is more obviously now a misnomer because we don’t seem to be able to win if teams for South America and Asia are allowed in the competition. But in the old days, it wouldn’t have mattered if Japan or Cuba could field a team because they wouldn’t have won.
I think it’s fine that there are 28 percent foreign born players in the Majors, and it would even be okay if it got to 50 percent. It’s just a change we have to get used to unless we want to go backward toward the days before Jackie Robinson.
I’m not like that one news commentator who said I’m losing interest in baseball because “all the players are all named Rodriguez now.”
I’m mostly just pointing out that we could probably win the World Baseball Classic if it weren’t during spring training. If they had it after the season, for instance, and only those players who’s Major League teams didn’t make the playoffs were on the roster, I think we’d have a better chance of winning than we do now with the tournament being before the season starts. It just makes the embarrassment come faster.
Recently I’ve been among a group of voting citizens chosen at random. From casual conversation, I’d say that the majority seem to support a path to citizenship for those aliens working here and supporting their families. I’ve done nothing to encourage such a position, but it’s heartening to know that so many people feel this way. Yahoo, it’s good to get out of PWC occasionally.
Censored bybvbl, I think that most Americans, even people who haven’t followed the immigration issue closely, have an instinct about it that favors path to citizenship.
If you look at the debate, and who has lined up on which side, you have to get the impression that those who want mass deportations are not the future of America. They are usually elderly and ultra-conservative, and they seem to prefer an America that is majority white in population, and certainly majority white in positions of power.
Most Americans realize that we can’t just hang on to that idea of America dominated by white people, and we tend not to trust those who want that, no matter how many “facts” and “figures” they pump out.
This whole thing against immigrants has been with us from the very beginning. We’ve heard it all before. But looking back we are a nation of immigrants.
It’s not just baseball that is becoming international. As a nation of immigrants, our roots are international. They are and it is not American to argue otherwise because if anything defines us, it’s democracy and immigration.
Censored,
That is heartening. And my personal experiences bear it out as well. Anyone who knows me as more than just an acquaintance knows my family situation. And there has not been one person in my life that thinks my husband should be “shipped home”. Or express the attitude that if he does someday get deported that “I should have known better” or that “we deserve it”. People are amazingly supportive and wonder how the current system can be so broken that there is absolutely no path whatsoever to, not even citizenship, but just a work permit or green card!
Well I’ll go on record as saying that anyone here illegally should be deported. Including Obama’s Aunt Zetuni.
I wonder how much of this went on around us, how many 2-year olds were owning homes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlOH_wTmcV0&feature=related
If our politicians gave half a damn about our communities, they’d safeguard againts this.
They don’t.
Rick, what about Twin’s husband? Send’em back with love?
All any of this really shows is that if you can get enough people breaking the law, then other people will suddenly become sympathetic to those breaking the law as if there’s nothing wrong in doing it. It’s similar to mob psychology, but spread across the entire country.
Rick and SA, do you not think that an American citizen’s spouse should be permitted to adjust status?
Well I haven’t thought much about that and don’t have a strong opinion on it. But I lean against it. I want to provide as many disincentives against people coming here illegally as I can.
@Rick Bentley
You could always sign this petition.
http://www.numbersusa.com/petition?ID=3&jid=120698&lid=9&rid=698&tid=808087
There was a time when that was the case. I don’t understand why it isn’t anymore.
Me neither!
Yes, there was a time when it was a fairly automatic thing if a legal marriage. Times have changed.
Rick, what if it were your wife?
I agree that this is a kind of mob psychology. What if 12 million people (any status) just stopped paying speeding tickets or were late paying them?
But what if the government had already been late in enforcing payment? Suppose the government hadn’t enforced collection in decades. Would the government not be forced to implement a program to encourage tax collection? Would this not be considered reform? After all, we couldn’t bring to court or jail that many people.
We have a dishonest government and that’s why it is so important for people to remain vigilant, not just on immigration, but on issues. We can’t allow government to run this country. WE need to run it in an orderly fashion through a central administration. If that administration fails us, it needs to go.
It would be far easier to jail dishonest government officials and their cronies than it would be to jail 12 million people.
Actually, it is still the case but the problem comes in that if the person is in the US without the benefit of legal entry, then they have to go back to the country of origin and can apply for reentry after a certain period of time if less here less than 1 year. If more, then it is like 10 years. Of course I don’t know how the US Government would know how long the person was in this country since they don’t know they exist in the first place. Assuming all takes place, they can be granted some form of residency for like 3 years and then they can become citizens I believe if all conditions are met. The waiting periods can be waived (for those that did not entry legally) if petitioned by the US citizen if they can demonstrate an insurmountable hardship if they had to go live in the country of their spouse. Unfortunately, I think these rules were put into place because of all the abuses of the past including marriage for money in return for citizenship.
I think this would be a good discussion if someone had the time to reseach the issue as I think the above does not apply if the person entered legally and overstayed the visa but I could be wrong.
if anyone is interested, here is a webpage I came across. It does not seem to be biased in any direction–
http://www.shusterman.com/marriage.html
FYI – An interesting book review in today’s WaPo (B7) of
IN THE SHADOW OF THE GIANT – The Americanization of Modern Mexico
by Joseph Contreras. The review notes that by 2006 Walmart was
Mexico’s largest private employer, Citigroup owned one of the
largest banks, about 400,000 Americans had bought second homes in Mexico
and Mexicans were slurping Coca-Cola at a higher per capita rate
than any other country, including the US. Americanization had
also “infected” Mexico with the “American diseases” – HIV,
illegal drug use and obesity.
“Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States.”
Porfiro Diaz
Well, it’s ridiculous APWCR! They’re very quick to ignore other immigration laws and allow the free flow of illegal aliens into this country, ignoring our laws, and demanding rights to which they are not entitled, all the while demanding that WE assimilate to THEIR culture. But if one them assimilates, falls in love with a citizen, marries and becomes a productive member of our society, THAT’S who they want to throw out and put at the back of the line!
There’s no question that this country has LONG needed immigration reform, but from what I’ve seen the kind of reform they’ve been seeking in recent years panders to people who have no desire to become good citizens…the vast majority only want the benefits of citizenship without the responsibilities attached!
Presumably even the productive people that you speak of will benefit from a wider net. The problems with out laws many times is that they change overtime with unintended consequences. I have always felt that many laws come with an unrevokable expiration date to validate them at least periodically. I have originally thought they could start with tax laws.
Over time, many of these laws become so “christmas treed” that they have lost their original purpose and we need to stand back, identify the current issues and proceed with an orderly development of reform. Some of that is to look at the original issues and see if the conditions still exist. Probably the marriage issue could have been dealt with to attach a long time to the marriage itself to prove its validity.
We don’t do comprehensive review in this country very often unfortunately.
woops, obviously “out” in second line should be “our”. and also the unrevokable expiration should have a “should have” rather just a “have”.
Geesh, Sunday morning and already the lack of coordination from my brain to my fingers is rearing its ugly head.
Very productive conversation, APWCR and AWC. I don’t disagree with either of you. We definitely need to so something. AWC, your comment about assimilation go right to the heart of the matter with one of our regular contributors here. I agree.
I cringe when I hear people who are upset at immigrants characterize their motivations, their allegiances, their expectations in such a way as AWC was above. I’m glad that she can find it in her heart to accept the spouse of an American as an American. But I have never understood how people who belong to a nation of immigrants, and all have immigrant roots, can sit here and say “old immigrants good, new immigrants bad.”
My feeling is that if they do speak a different language and have a different racial make-up, it just takes a bit longer, but they always assimilate.
Interesting reflection. When I first started researching immigration and laws that were created to deal with whatever immigrants group was being discouraged at the time, hisotry tells us it started with the chinese during the gold rush and then was more succinctly quantified with the Johnson-Reed act in 1925, this was meant to keep out the jews and Italians primarily, but really any poor eastern european would do. @A PW County Resident
I expect that I have considerably more experience with, and objective perspective of, the immigration issue in this country than you, Witness Too, as I am, myself, a former immigrant, now a naturalized citizen. Personally, I cringe at people such as yourself who automatically assume that all their (illegal immigrant’s) motives are pure and, therefore, they should all be accepted without question. The fact is, their motives are as diverse as the motives of any group of human beings in this modern, greed and violence driven world…which is why we have immigration laws. They are supposed to be designed to keep out those whose motives are not quite so pure, and to protect the citizens as well as the legal immigrants of this country.
Immigration laws SHOULD be compassionate, but that doesn’t mean we should be stupid and self-destructive, and fail to enforce the laws that we do have. Our immigration laws should be reformed…but our government has lain a HUGE problem at our feet that must be addressed and resolved before we pass more laws which won’t be enforced.
Originally, I thought I’d share my discovery that Mr. Clean erasers are excellent for cleaning grout especially with a touch from the clorox bleach pen. By the way, I have been cleaning for the floor instead of doing our taxes.
But wow, what a great conversation going on.
AWCheney,
I personally know many cases that contradict your assertion that they just want the benefit without any of the responsibilities that go along with being a citizen. One for example, is the first KIA in Iraq during the Second Gulf War. Another is a family living in the Gainesville District, a father and three of his sons are now serving and they ALL were previously undocumented. People who have received ‘Amnesty’ in the past can be as equally as patriotic as others.
Witness Too, I agree with what you’ve said. I’ve seen absolutely no data that would lead me to believe that recent immigrants want all the benefits of citizenship without the responsibilites or that they have no desire to become good citizens. The language issue will be overcome eventually , either by the immigrant or his/her children. And the work ethic is evidenced at any 7-11 much to the chagrin of the local self-appointed anti-immigrant task force. lol
Alanna, you perpetually make the mistake so many of your fellows on the issue do…you assume sweeping generalizations where none exist. Immigration laws DO, if properly applied, offer exceptions due to exigent circumstances. Bottom line though, we are SUPPOSED to be a society of laws, equally applied to citizen and immigrant alike. Until those laws are changed, that’s the way it should be.
I wasn’t necessarily going to post to this subject much anymore but I find it somewhat interesting that people are debating motives when no one really knows because we don’t even know who “they” are. Sometimes I just feel the need to say something like, “I really don’t know. How do you?”
I can agree and disagree with both points of view. See, it’s easy when you don’t know.
There are people here both legally and illegally that are considered aliens. There are people her both legally and illegally are immigrants. The way I was taught, there is a huge difference between an alien and an immigrant. As I have understood the terms, alien is one who does not desire to live outside his/her home country permanently but does so for whatever reason there might be at the time. An immigrant is one who wishes to establish a permanent residence in another country.
I would guess (without knowing) that an alien’s inclination is not to assimilate whereas an immigrant would. But I don’t know the motivation of people and we won’t know until we ask. A few examples used by both sides in the argument do not extrapolate to the populace as a whole. And frankly, I discount almost all “statistics” and “studies” that are produced by people who have a vested interest in its outcome (like money from donations, etc.)
I would also say in my opinion that if I were trying to “hide” in another country, I would not want to stand out but would do all I could to assimilate. At least I would try adhere to the current customs to draw the least attention to myself.
It is a good discussion by the way.
Citizenship is precious, and carries with it serious obligations.
There is absolutely no reason at all to grant a pathway to citizenship to those who failed to follow the law entering the United States. Humanitarian and economic considerations may weigh in favor of some form of residency or work permit for this group, but it is an intolerable denigration of the dignity of citizenship to pass it out as lagniappe for just showing up without papers. Those who violate the law have no legitimate claim to the reward of citizenship unless they bring some great benefit to the commonweal, such as military service.
Those who bemoan the prospect of a “second class” group of citizenship-ineligible residents fail to reckon with the reality that it was bad behavior which created the class and made it inferior.
A PWC Resident, the US government defines some of the terms as follows:
Alien: Any person not a citizen or national of the United States.
Immigrant: See “Permanent Resident Alien”
Permanent Resident Alien: An alien admitted to the United States as a lawful permanent resident. Permanent residents are also commonly referred to as immigrants; however, the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) broadly defines an immigrant as any alien in the United States, except one legally admitted under specific nonimmigrant categories (INA section 101(a)(15)). An illegal alien who entered the United States without inspection, for example, would be strictly defined as an immigrant under the INA but is not a permanent resident alien. Lawful permanent residents are legally accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States. They may be issued immigrant visas by the Department of State overseas or adjusted to permanent resident status by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services in the United States.
Definitions are taken from the US Citizenship and Immigration Services website which has a lot of helpful information – though it only further shows how the common intrepretation of the words don’t jive with the Fed’s definitions.
I have no beef with people that do not want to allow former “illegals” to become citizens unless they commit to military service or some other more strict path to citizenship. I DO have a problem with people that absolutely don’t want them to have any sort of legal residency whether it be a green card or work authorization. Obviously, something needs to be done, so there has to be some kind of common ground.
Any plan that can’t be enforced is no improvement.
The sluggishness and limitations of the federal bureaucracy are well-known. Where are the people going to come from to run the background checks of any illegals who are given any sort of path toward legitimate residence? If the universe of “clients” is somewhere between 12 and 20 million, think of the size of the organization necessary to process them. The services of the existing immigration bureaucracy make getting a driver’s license seem like a day at the beach (ask anyone who has tried to get legal residency), so don’t even think about piling on additional massive doses of money, people, rules, regulations, and all the other “inputs” government bureaucracies use to measure their importance and flex their muscles.
If we go with a brand new bureaucracy, we all know what is going to happen. The government unions see a lot of new dues paying members. Ambitious bureaucrats see vast empires to be built, volumes and volumes of regulations to be written and interpreted; and of course lawyers see many years of litigation, test cases and judicial activism ahead. This will all cost years of effort and tens of billions of dollars at least. Inspecting airline passengers is a piece of cake compared to vetting illegal aliens, and that effort has been full of waste, inefficiency and occasional frightening incompetence.
Just in Time, so what’s your solution? You don’t appear to be willing to pay to increase an already over-burdened work force to accomplish the goal. What’s a better solution than the present Republican mantra of just saying “no”? If you don’t want to create a pathway to citizenship and you don’t want a two-tiered society, what do you do with the millions of people who may not be able to complete military service? What alternative services would you propose to allow motivated people to pursue in order to gain citizenship?
All I can say is that you guys are all awesome! What a productive, civilized conversation amongst people with divergent points of view.