Many anti-immigration spokes-people (self-appointed and otherwise) insist that our education system is a draw for illegal immigrants and that our free k-12 immigration system serves as a magnet. New statistics might make them want to rethink that rhetoric.
According to the DC Examiner, 1 out of 4 Hispanic students drops out high school before graduation. New methods of tracking students have allowed jurisdictions to refine their drop out rates. While Arlington, Alexandria and Prince William have the worst Hispanic drop-out rates, Fairfax doesn’t lag too far behind.
Northern Virginia dropout rates for the class of 2008:
Alexandria — 11 percent
Arlington County — 9 percent
Fairfax County — 6 percent
Falls Church — 0 percent
Loudoun County — 3 percent
Prince William County — 10 percent
Source: Virginia Department of Education
NOTE: The above table shows dropout rates for ALL students.
The data track for the first time the path of students who entered high school in 2004 as they progressed through graduation. The previous measure divided total dropouts by total students in grades nine through 12, resulting in lower and less accurate percentages. Maryland districts are about two years away from similar data, and the District of Columbia will have the data in four years.
“This is a milestone in our reporting,” said Virginia Superintendent Patricia Wright, adding that it holds schools accountable for every student.But it revealed some ugly truths about local districts.
In Alexandria and Arlington and Prince William counties, almost 25 percent of Hispanic students dropped out of school and did not enroll elsewhere between 2004 and 2008. Fairfax County fared little better with a rate of 22 percent.
“That’s way too many students to not be finishing in a society that requires, at a minimum, that individuals have a high school diploma,” said Kathy Wills, director of planning and evaluation for Arlington County Public Schools.
While the data will not ever clearly define which of these students are here legally and which are not, because schools collect no information on status, it only stands to reason that part of these student dropping out are probably out of status because their parents are out of status.
What are possible causes of this phenomena? Is it different that other waves of immigrant groups? How does this dropout rate affect our discussions of future ‘Dream Acts?’ Is there a demographic that disaggregates the data even further, such as by gender or country of origin and would it even matter?
It would be interesting to know how many of these students were performing at grade level when tracking began. Do they have larger obstacles to overcome? Do they give up sooner if there isn’t much hope of working or going to college?
Has the financial situation caused drop out? How many young people have to help out the family? I know this impacted earlier waves of immigrants.
The local gangs are probably okay with this … MS-13 recruiting is probably pretty easy around here … and it’ll keep wages down in landscaping, janitorial services, restaurants, and construction.
Is this wave of immigration different than previous ones? Yes, partially because of the common language (Spanish) spoken by the vast majority of illegal immigrants, and the disincentive to assimilate. It’s very unlike previous waves in size and scope, and in the language factor. The statistics speak for themselves, and the fact that no idealist wants to speak to – that supports my theory that we are creating two Americas – is this : children of illegal immigrants are 8 times more liley to go to jail than their parents. Not college. Jail.
“What researchers also have found is a Latino paradox: their incarceration rates go up one generation to the next. In the California study, U.S.-born Mexican descendents were eight times more likely to be jailed than were recent Mexican immigrants. Among Salvadorans and Guatemalans, the difference was six to one. ”
(http://www.postwritersgroup.com/archives/schu090227.htm)
“Do they give up sooner if there isn’t much hope of working or going to college?”
Yes, and then they self-deport back to nation of origin.
Oh wait, no they don’t! They stay here! And increase poverty.
Oh well I’m sure we’re somehow building a better America through importantion of poverty. Afer all I was assured, right up until the last few months, that we couldn’t “grow” our ecomony so well without them.
From the Ivory tower, behind the gate, from the penthouse, from the mansion, it looks charitable and good to let everyone stay here who expresses an interest.
The view from the ground level is quite different.
Rick,
You’re incorrect about the language. There was concern when the Germans arrived because so many of them didn’t speak the language. I recall reading something about the percentage in relation to the total population and it was greater than what we are experiencing now.
Having said that, I completely agree with your concern about language. But let me say that I’m not convinced this is necessarily related to someone’s immigration status. Occasionally I receive mail in Spanish and neither myself or my husband are conducting business in the language. So, how is that happening? Someone’s made an assumption based on my last name. Who’s fault is that? Surely not the “illegals”.
MCPS leaders have noted an issue with Hispanic students
dropping in and out of school, leaving the area, and
coming back 3-6 months later – often, by then, well behind their
classmates.
Wonder why foreign born Asian students, as a group, tend
to do so well while Hispanics, as a group, falter. Asians also
deal with language and immigration issues plus sometimes
even more prejudice, but they still achieve great success.
Interesting that someone around here is presumably targeting mail to surnames …
Right, the language thing doesn’t correlate directly to legal status but of course it does correlate.
Rick, what impact do you think self-appointed anti-immigrant groups such as HSM have on gang recruitment? Do you think Immigration Resolutions (neutered or not), “speak English” campaigns, the blame game, etc. make young people feel all warm and welcome? Remember that many are US-born citizens. Do tactics such as the ones HSM employs push more kids into gangs? Do gangs feel welcoming where the community does not? Does selling drugs offer income where employment without a green card does not? The farther a kid goes in school, the less likely he’ll be tempted by gangs because he’ll see other options. We need to find out why these kids are dropping out and what can be done to reverse that.
I think the present wave of immigrants will learn English as quickly as those who arrived in the past.
Nearly every arguement for Amnesty that our leaders were selling us on is baloney.
“We need them to keep our economy growing” well our ecomony has imploded and mortgage fraud was one reason.
“Illegal aliens commit less crime per capita than regular citizens” but their kids commit 8 times as much.
So what’s the delay? Let’s proceed to enforce our laws and to provide every reasonable disincentive to those who break them.
Asian parents have extremely high expectations for their children, compared to all the other ethnicities. It is very much a part of the culture.
Rick, I know you are a youngster compared to me, but let’s go back about 50-60 years to the wave of Puerto Ricans who immigrated to this country. They spoke Spanish and they lived in ethnic communities. People talked about them like they were dogs. No one could say they were illegal because Puerto Ricans were US citizens since 1917.
Where does that statistic come from Rick? The one where you state that the children of illegal immigrants commit 8 times as much crime? I don’t think you will be able to cite a source on the one.
I would blame the parents 100%. Look at other groups of immigrants in our country, in particular Asians. They often come here with next to nothing, work in sweat shops, dry cleaners and so on yet their kids excel in school, go on to college and get great jobs.
What is the difference between Asian immigrants (lowest drop out rate) and Hispanic immigrants (highest drop out rate)? As Moon suggested most Hispanic students dropping out are probably out of status or their parents are out of status. When the parents are here illegally, driving without a license, stealing someones identity to work or just not paying taxes all together… what kind of example does that show their kids? Why wouldn’t the kids just say to themselves, gee, Mom and Dad don’t play by the rules and their doing okay… why am I even trying when I can just drop out, stand at 7-11 and make a few bucks. And why are the parents letting them do this?
Parents fault all the way.
you can blame the parents, I blame the government leaders content to let waves of illegal immigrants come here to lower American wages.
MH, I assume it was less than a million Puerto Ricans who came here – legally. We are talking now about tens of millions of people, again a different size and scope.
“Where does that statistic come from Rick? The one where you state that the children of illegal immigrants commit 8 times as much crime? I don’t think you will be able to cite a source on the one.”
I put a link right there. Sounds like the Pew Hispanic Center is the primary source. But given their bias it’s hard to find a direct reference to it on google.
Just look in the jails around here though if you want some supporting evidence. Do a head count. Or just look at the crime reports in the paper.
Hello, I’m not sure most kids know with much precision just what their parents are doing – driving without a license, family income, paying taxes, etc. Some of the parents arrive without much more than a grade school education. They aren’t familiar with all the intricacies of our school system. And many are both working. That is not to say that many Asian parents didn’t face the same problems. Heck, why aren’t white students performing better?
I don’t think you can blame everything on parents. Just as kids don’t know many things that their parents do, parents are clueless about many of their children’s escapades. You need look no further than last season’s VP candidate for proof.
Censored, we are not talking about 7 and 8 year olds here. We are talking about high-school age kids 15, 16 17… I started working 30 hours a week when I was 15 and worked all thru high-school to help out so I don’t buy that argument. I got my first full time job the day of my graduation on a Friday and started that following Monday and then went to school at night for years.
I think your taking what kids know about their parents for granted. I’m sure they know Dad doesn’t have a drivers license or insurance but still drives, I’m sure they know Mom doesn’t have valid id but is working. Kids aren’t dumb, they see that and end up doing the same thing. The real question is why aren’t the parents doing anything about it. My parents always knew where I was at and who I was hanging with, why don’t these parents?
What you would contribute it to? Why do you think these parents are allowing their children to drop out?
It’s called a cycle of poverty. We are importing more of it into America rather than attempting to fight against it.
Hello, when I was a high school student most of my peers were clueless about what their parents earned. It wasn’t discussed in front of us – other than to say some item we whined for was too expensive. My siblings didn’t discuss their finances with their children either. Most of us had jobs so we knew about our own money or lack of it. That was out training ground – that and a small allowance when we were younger. I’ll agree that when a kid is old enough to drive, questions about licensing may come up – but you don’t know that parents haven’t just fibbed about what they’re doing in order not to worry their kids.
Haha – I can guarantee that my parents didn’t know half the things we did as teenagers even though they thought they did.
Censored, again, kids are not dumb… It’s not like it’s some big secret in the community that nobody talks about. It’s pretty well known that in MD you don’t need to show proof your here legally to get a drivers license, you can stand at a 7-11 and pick up work, if you do work at a place where you need an id it’s pretty easy to find and use someone else’s, and on and on… Most probably know how to skirt the system on any number of things just by talking and texting with their peers.
My point is these parents are setting a horrible example for their children and it comes as no surprise when the children start to follow that example.
Drop out rates correspond with economic circumstances. If we looked at the inner-city poor, or at whites in rural impoverished areas, the drop out rates would be similar. What this shows is that people who don’t have a lot of money often raise children who drop out of school. If we’re going to blame or dislike poor people for this, I wish we didn’t have to do so with race as the main bait for criticism.
Oh, and it shows that Hispanics in Virginia are recent arrivals, and haven’t been here long enough to reach the economic levels that Hispanics have in the Southwest, for instance. So underneath it all, it just tells you that we have a lot of recently arrived people from South and Central America here. I think we knew that already.
Hello, I doubt that many parents discuss false IDs or SSNs with their children. Loose lips sink ships. Same way with taxes – if a parent is cheating on his/her taxes, I’d be willing to bet that their kids are not being informed. Same way with wandering spouses. The kids may sense something’s not right though.
The example that a lot of these parents are setting is one of hardworking employees. Maybe their kids will make the connection between lack of papers (degree or green card) and lower paying, harder jobs and be more inclined to finish school. Too many people who gripe about ESOL and the Dream Act are also the same people who gripe about uneducated people. They need to make up their minds which they want. Or maybe they just want to grouse about the country not being what it was in the 1950s.
“I wish we didn’t have to do so with race as the main bait for criticism.”
Okay, well my core arguement against Amnesty and for prosecution of illegal immigrants has nothing to do with race. It is that poverty begats poverty, that we are allowing the importation of poverty into America for the sake of lower wages, and that it is extremely poor social planning (or lack thereof) which will result in a swelling of our underclass and an inability to reduce poverty in America.
And simultaneously, mexico and other South and Central American nations are being abandoned to drug lords and ruling elites.
ShellyB, I would agree with your statement to a point “Drop out rates correspond with economic circumstances. If we looked at the inner-city poor, or at whites in rural impoverished areas, the drop out rates would be similar.”
However, not all poor kids drop out. Kids with supportive parents, who set a good example and who actually parent their kids by making sure they do their homework and study, no matter how rich or poor, tend to finish school. In this example the rate is 25% for Hispanic kids who’s parents are setting an example of breaking a variety of laws. No matter what anyone says kids know these things one way or another and pick them these habits.
Also contributing to Hispanic drop out rates (I think Rick said this earlier): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/26/AR2009032603622.html?sub=AR
I just think it’s sad that all it took was a barrage of propaganda and slander, and so many otherwise free thinking and intelligent adults now assume that anyone who is Hispanic must be “breaking a variety of laws.”
If your here illegally, no matter what race, you break a variety of laws on a daily basis. What’s so hard to understand about that? The topic of this story has to do with a 25% drop out rate of Hispanic kids who Moon even said “it only stands to reason that part of these student dropping out are probably out of status because their parents are out of status”.
time to end this social experiment we’ve been conducting where we pretend that laws don’te xist and where we let the rich import poverty for the sake of lower wages.
Rick, remember we are a nation of immigrants. And historically it has not often been wealthy people who decide to pick up and leave their home countries in search of a better life. The Irish who fled the potato famine, for instance, came here with no money and with a funny accent to boot! Store fronts created signs that said “No dogs or Irish allowed” and propaganda and slander depicted the Irish as violent criminals. But all that was really true about them was that they were poor. Over time they got rid of their funny accents and assimilated into society quite well, thank you very much. One of them even became President of the United States. The Irish are no longer associated with violent crime or poverty.
With immigrants who have racial characteristics that will distinguish them for generations (unlike the Irish) it just takes a bit longer for them to be SEEN as fully American. But the truth is they become American just as quickly, and just as patriotically as any other immigrants.
Politicians and anti-immigrant lobbying groups would not have gotten anywhere using this issue to sell themselves if it were not for visible racial characteristics that allow people to draw some connection between the propaganda and their own lives. They see Lou Dobbs say “we are being invaded” and then they go shopping and sure enough! There are a lot of dark skinned people who are “probably illegal!”
But don’t you see this is all based on an assumption that is either racist or unfair or both?
Whatever generalizations you can make about people with darker skin, not EVERYONE with darker skin is illegal or “breaking a variety of laws.” So while it may be fun or politically effective to slander an entire minority segment of our community, it really is not fair.
I can’t believe some people wanted and still want the entire country to look at things that way. It was disastrous enough to have it happen to one county.
Just looked at hello’s link. Good to know that the hard core gangs are recruiting in Fairfax County’s middle schools. Just beautiful.
Unfortunately Rick it’s not just happening in Fairfax middle schools, it’s happening in middle and high-schools all over NoVA. I doubt those kids that join end up graduating thus adding to the number of drop outs.
Hello, you are right. M-H said it first. I wish she hadn’t. Given that only about half of the undocumented people in America are Hispanic. And given that the other half is therefore NOT Hispanic. You could safely assume that a portion of any cross section may have some undocumented people in it. Somehow this issue has just become fused with race. I don’t know how to undo it. Most people just seem content to let it continue that way. I give credit to you and Michael and others for trying. I’m trying as well.
ShelleyB, I understand what you’re saying about our past history, and it reflecting this “poor huddled masses” invitation on the Statue of Liberty.
And the difference is – those people were brought in legally.
The current crisis is being caused by people skirting the system, and then being rewarded for it, generation after generation.
I’m not in favor of race bias either. But that’s not what this is about. This is, to me, about :
1. Whether we are going to let our ruling elites ignore their responsibility to uphold our laws
2. Whether we are going to abandon our social contract with our citizen poor, many of whose ancestors built and fought for this country
3. Whether we are going to allow this nation to move further towards a caste society of haves and have-nots
Rick, I know you try as well. But there is a problem even with your latest post that focuses on gangs. You know, there are skinhead gangs that commit violence. There has been an upsurge in hate crimes during the past 8 years, and many of them are committed when people are in groups.
But it would be senseless and unfair to point out every skinhead or neo-nazi hate crime and use that as a justification for deporting white people. Somehow, we are able to blame entire minorities for actions of a few. But we don’t try to do that with the majority. I’m sure this is true everywhere not just America.
“Given that only about half of the undocumented people in America are Hispanic”
Huh? prove that, please.
“Somehow this issue has just become fused with race. I don’t know how to undo it. Most people just seem content to let it continue that way.”
I take no pleasure in the intersection of those issues. But the fact that the issue of illegal immigration intersects with race is not going to make me put blinders on and pretend that the issue isn’t very serious and isn’t going to change America for the worse.
Rick, all we have to do is make it mandatory for anyone living or working in the U.S. to have some sort of documentation. And, then we’d have to fix the broken system so this can be done. I think this will happen soon, and then there will be no cause for the “legal vs. illegal” argument. The only ones left hollering will be the racist people, which means it won’t be an issue at all.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the Irish immigration wave was before we had immigration laws. I think we started with the immigration laws when we realized there were a lot of Chinese immigrants trying to come here.
Rick, I just quickly did a google search, but I’m not sure if this is the original source of that figure or not.
This study estimates that between 50 and 60 percent of undocumented immigrants are from Mexico. People of Mexican ancestry represent about one thirds of the foreign born population. This is not unprecedented, as both Irish and German immigrants had a higher percentage at other times in our history.
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=44
ShellyB!!! You’re saying that all “Hispanics” come from Mexico?
Like I said, it’s not necessary the source of where I originally heard this. But again, if we have any hope of separating race from this issue, then we have find another way to justify the focus of so much of the propaganda and hatred being at Hispanics. Well, a popular way to justify it is that a large portion of the undocumented population comes from Mexico. This would seem to be valid. One could say that it’s not what they look like that bothers me, it’s that they are all from this one country.
But if they want to throw in all the other Latin American countries as well, even ones that provide a tiny percentage of the immigrant and foreign born population, then what are they really saying? They’re saying that it IS the skin color that bothers them. The nation of origin is less important. Otherwise, why not throw in the undocumented immigrants from Canada and Sweden?
I think it’s just unavoidable that an aversion to the “browning of America” is at the heart of the issue for way too many people who are harping on this issue. If they had been very careful not to race bait, they never would have gotten this far. But then again, if not for the inherent racism involved in the issue, they wouldn’t have attracted the attention of so many moderate open-minded people who object to racism as the foundation for a political movement.
I’ll agree that the gang issue needs to be addressed – in the same way that organized crime or hate groups need to be addressed. It’s a waste of time to use police personnel to chase immigration scofflaws by concentrating on petty traffic violations or overcrowding. Get the worst/most violent offenders. Believe me, ICE has bigger fish to fry.
Yes, and our local police have bigger fish to fry. I’d rather have them focus on keeping me from getting mugged or killed than reducing the number of visible people who look like they are probably undocumented. Honestly, I just couldn’t be made to care about that. When the Gospel Greg types were saying our property values were dropping because of people who look like they are probably maybe illegal, my ears perked up a little bit. I’ll admit that. But come to find out it was a combination of mortgage frauds at our financial institutions and, it seems, the Immigration Resolution itself, that caused our houses to lose twice as much value as other counties around here. So, whenever I hear something like “blame the illegals for the economy” I just have to assume it’s another lie.
Off topic, but watched a little news this afternoon about the G-20
and, even with all the challenges, it certainly feels good to have
our guy as one of the smartest in the room and not the dumbest.
That has to help.
I wish they had data on how many of these students went on to get their GED. Some students will drop out of school and take their GED if they know they have no chance of graduating from high school. Language may have something to do with it – I also wonder, though, if some of these kids have to drop out to help support their family by getting a full time job. AS the economy worsens, I’m scared that more and more kids will take that route.
They should start doing “exit interviews” with these kids (all kids who drop out, actually) to see why they are dropping out. It would help with prevention. Is it bullying, discipline issues, grade issues, etc?
That rate for Alexandria is really scary, because they are a very small school district. We’re talking 1 high school here. ONE. So 11% of their school is dropping out? Not good at all. Then again, TC Williams has some major issues with gangs (all gangs – white, black, latino, asian).
LOL Poor Richard, you’ve done it again. You have a manner of understatement that gets your point across without you ever saying anything mean. That is a true gift, that most of us only wish we had.
Yes, I did say it first and I am not sorry I did. In looking at reasons why Hispanics drop out of school, one has to take the illegal population into consideration. Illegal immigrants have a harder time finding work and therefore are more nomadic. They rarely settle in one place for the duration of the time their kids are in school. This is not a criticism, but a statement of fact. Kids who move around a lot have a greater tendency to not finish school. (and no, I mean migrant worker types, not the General’s kids)
Additionally, the article only talks about kids in NOVA which is a very expensive ara to live in. We might not be able to apply these same statistics to other areas of our own state, much less areas out of state.
Rick, Most of the Puerto Ricans lived in the NY/NJ region. I can remember hearing things as a child that I hear today. People talked about them like dogs and were afraid of them. Most of the time the spoke Spanish amongst themselves and their English was poor (nowadays English is taught in Puerto Rican schools from kindergarten on. They also didn’t have much money. I have no idea how many there were. I was a young kid. There weren’t as many people back then.
How about the Cubans in Florida? They were definitely wealthier but the people living in Miami sure didn’t have much good to say about them either. Newcomers/immigrants! I have a friend who grew up in Miami during those times. She has the rhetoric down pat!
Here is some info on the Puerto Ricans of yesteryear…or back in olden days.
You Wish, there is an epidemic of high school drop out nationally. I have read a variety of reasons why. My personal opinion is that school has become a test fest and just learning objectives has made school even more irrelevant. Just an opinion however…no research.
The majority of Hispanic students who drop out in my district are older students, limited English proficient, who arrived here with little to no high school credits, and who just feel a sense of hopelessness in how long it will take them to graduate. Many need to work to help support their families. My understanding is that if they drop out and then re-enroll at a later date, past a specific time period, they are still counted in the drop out rate, i.e. we never get that statistic back.
How to help these students? Provide flexible programs, with career/technical training and flexible hours.
Students who arrive with a strong academic background, Hispanic or otherwise, who bring high school credits from their countries, may be limited English proficient, but have a much higher graduation rate.