Sometimes it is just better to sit back and watch. Today’s Washington Post continues the debate on Prince William County’s crime report. Clearly, people have their own interpretation of what has happened.
Basically, the debate is as follows:
With the release of the new data, which cover the first 10 months of enforcement, people on both sides of the debate claim that the numbers prove their case. Advocates of the policy say the low numbers of illegal immigrants arrested show that it is working as a deterrent. Opponents say the statistics show that the rhetoric about the safety threat posed by illegal immigrants was overblown.
By one measure, critics said, the policy has failed: The County’s crime rate rose last year for the first time since 2004. That increase was driven largely by a surge in property crime, including burglaries and larcenies. But the number of major violent crimes plummeted almost 22 percent from the year before — more proof, advocates say that the policy has worked.
“I think what the stats show is the effectiveness of the program,” said Board of Supervisors Chairman Corey A. Stewart (R-At Large), who fought hard for passage of the policy.
As evidence that the measure is working, Stewart pointed out that illegal immigrants were charged with several homicides in 2007, compared with none in 2008. Two men who were in the country illegally were charged with four of Prince William’s nine homicides in 2007, police said.
“There were a series of very serious crimes, high-profile crimes committed by illegal aliens” before the policy, Stewart said. “Frankly, illegal immigrants have done one of two things: They have either left the county, or they simply are being very careful not to commit any crimes and end up in jail.”
Corey is attempting to turn a year or 2 into a theory. Crime statistics just don’t work that way Corey. Experts in the field believe our crime statistics are as they are because of Chief Deane’s leadership in getting more professionals involved in crime fighting. It stands to reason, the more cops out there, the fewer crimes committed and the fewer committed crimes that go unsolved. Our police force is just excellent and our police chief has an extremely good national reputation.
There is much good in Prince William County. There is much to crow about. However, the Immigration Resolution isn’t one of those things. It caused dissention amongst residents and brought an undesirable focus on our county. Corey Stewart ought to be promoting the county based on the professional accomplishments of Chief Deane and a lowered crime rate (prior to 2008), rather than attempting to blow sunshine all over himself for ‘running the illegals out of town.’
@Slowpoke Rodriguez
Oh wow, that makes sense, because no way would that commercial seriously have been made here. I just tried to take another look and the link now says that it has been removed by the user. I guess I saw it in the nick of time. Thanks for keeping me informed about current events.
Firedancer, it is one thing to bring a perspective to the table. It is quite another to bring a consistent, generalized, racially tinged rant to the same table.
Should I share perspectives from a white point of view that perhaps a Hispanic would not understand and tell Hispanics that there is no way for them to get it? Is that permitted or is that considered racist because its from a white perspective?
I’m not saying “illegals are “sub-human”. I’m simply saying they are breaking the law and that is affecting all of us in VERY NEGATIVE ways. Enforce the existing law, and all of these problems associated with “illegal” immigrants go away.
What is so wrong with that?
Lucky Duck, with all due respect, WE HAVE gotten perspectives from a Caucasian point of view that a lot of us, including many Caucasians, cannot get our heads around. To me, that’s at the core of this issue.
I think Firedancer’s point is that Mackie is the only consistent poster on this blog who is a minority, and without him we can sometimes become a little, I don’t know, sheltered and homogeneous.
I agree with you that Mackie’s comments are often angry, even hateful. I wish he would not take it that far. I try to make the case to him from time to time. He does better when he is not ignored but instead listened to, so that’s what I try to do. I do the same with some of the people on the other side of the spectrum who sound equally hateful.
I fully understand why Mackie gets your goat. We’re just saying that there is a place for him on the blog.
Lucky, I thought of that argument even as I was typing. I’m aware of the perceived inconsistency. We’ve already gone round and round previously on the concept of “white privilege”. I don’t remember if Mackie has ever mentioned being black. But I don’t think a white person can tell a black person to “get over it” because we don’t walk in their shoes. So why am I sympathetic to that, but not to white people bemoaning the fact that Hispanics are taking over? I dunno. I guess because it doesn’t personally threaten me. I speak Spanish, my S.O. is Latino and I’ve been fascinated with the culture ever since I was 8 years old and had a friend from South America.
I suppose it’s all about one’s personal perspective and own sense of security. We’re only upset about that which we perceive as a threat.
Michael: I also don’t perceive that the majority of undocumented immigrants are affecting me in VERY NEGATIVE ways. Sure, enforce the existing laws but at the same time we have a responsibility to help our neighbors improve their quality of life since we have been meddling there since the last century.
Thanks ShellyB…
This video illustrates the heart of this problem and the attitudes and mistakes made by both sides of the issue. This lady is making the same mistakes and misguided assumptions about 287G that most of the people here are making.
I call it conceptual blurring (mashing two unrelated concepts together and assuming they are the same when in fact they are not.)
This lady correctly identifies that you can always find someone who is a racist in every community, and use that single person’s behavior to advocate that a law enforcement policy is the cause and effect of that behavior when in reality it is not. In other words racisim is observed, therefore 287G is a racist program, when in reality it is not.
Most people here make the same conceptual mistake (they have reasons to support their own race, ethnicity, or personal racial self interests instead of the law and the rule of law).
On the other hand the lady completely ignores the racist behaviors that she herself displays in making the 287g issue a racist and ethnicity issue, when in fact it is a program targeted entirely at people who have already broken the law, and are deported for breaking the law (a law in addition to the one they have already broken to be checked for immigration status in the first place).
It is the people who are most naive, that equate the need for law enforcement in communities with “racist” behavior, instead of seeing the bigger issue, the fact that people who are allowed to remain in the US will continue to harm even more “victims” if they are allowed to stay.
That is why I feel compelled to educate people that if you make any of this a racial, ethnicity issue, you are a racist, either a minority racist or a majority racist, it does not matter, all are equally at fault and equally racists in their approach. If you cannot conceive of this as a law enforcement issue that does not involve race or ethnicity at all (except that it brings racists out of their closets from both minorities and majorities), then you are unable to intelligently argue the larger issue of what is best for the nation, and what is best for the majority of the people, instead of just what is best for 12 million “illegal” immigrants.
ShellyB mackie is a racist and he admits it, and you side with him?
ShellyB, We have a responsibility to help our “legal” neighbors. We have a moral responsibility to our “legal” neighbors to prevent our “illegal” neighbors from harming them, creating more poverty around them and continuing to spread minority racism as “illegals” self-segregate into racially prejudiced “apartheid” communities and politically racist anti-majority hate groups.
Sorry the previous comment was for Firedancer… I believe we have misplaced our loyalties and responsibilities to help the wrong people, and protect the wrong people from the law.
Firedancer and Shelly B…please don’t mistake my comments as seeing a “threat” (Firedancer’s word). What got us here in Prince William was not treating people equally and dividing us by race and ethnicity. So if it is wrong for a white person so “generalize” about the newest minority to arrive (for example – why are all day laborers Hispanic? ergo are all Hispanics day laborers?) Why do both of you accept racist statements from others? Firedancer’s answer of “I dunno” doesn’t cut it. And Shelly, my goat is not gotten. I like to deal in facts, not generalizations, name calling or racially based ideas.
By the way Firedancer, my Spanish gets me by just fine.
Michael and Lucky Duck, thanks for your thoughtful responses. I see your point, Michael, that just because some police officers abuse the federal powers granted them by 287G, it doesn’t mean that it is a bad program. Or that all police officers will do this.
But I don’t think she is making that point. It think she is saying that, in these particular North Carolina counties, you have an instance were racial tension and even racism led to the implementation of 287G. So it is happening that 287G is being abused there. People are being racially profiled as a way of sort of letting people know their place. And this is happening to legal citizens. Americans like anyone else except they have darker skin. I just don’t like that. That’s why I thought the woman’s testimony was compelling. It brings the other side of the equation into focus.
In PWC, we have always supported 287G because Chief Deane was the one who recommended it. We did not like the Immigration Resolution, because it added the negative elements that have happened down in North Carolina to something that would have worked just fine without it.
Anyway, now we see both of the two things we have to balance. We know that we want to do background checks on anyone who ends up in jail. But we also know we don’t want police abusing the implied directive of 287G to racially profile people, and pull them over for bogus reasons in order to check their status. This is exactly what we needed to protect against in PWC when the Immigration Resolution came along.
Lucky Duck, all your points are good points. I learn a lot from your comments, and on the whole I learn a lot more than from Mackie’s comments. Because I already have an idea how minorities feel about such things as racial profiling. I’m just saying that Mackie is not someone we should just trash and never listen to. Even if you disagree with him 100 percent, if you refuse to listen to him and always trash him, he will not be any more your friend. He will probably be more your enemy though, and would good would that be?
Shelly B., I’ll just leave it with this.
When we accept racist comments from anyone without calling them out on it, we condone those views. Racial commments from anyone, white, black, brown, yellow or red are just wrong. Majorities can be racists, Minorities can be racists.
Letting them get away with it makes the rest of us wrong.
I have to agree with Lucky Duck. However, I also see what Shelly is saying about people who have been on the receiving end of racial profiling. I hear from friends, trustworthy law abiding people, who have found themselves being profiled, for no reason other than their outward appearance. But these people also do not lash out or generalize to all white people like Mackie often does, on that basis, he simply discredits any valuable point he might have made.
Lucky Duck, what does “racist” mean anyway? What’s “racist” about Mackie, specifically?
Everybody is a racist.
Including Lucky Ducky and Elena.
It’s not about whether or not you are a racist because we all are. It’s about who actually has the power to act on their racism and impose their abuse upon others. The group would be white people. Will that change in the future? Not likely, but if it does, we can address it at that time.
(Please keep in mind that Lucky is here as a government official. He has a specific agenda he’s responsible for promoting. This is part of the reason why he systematically attempts to discredit me. If you go back and look at the posts over time, you’ll see that when I post a comment, he very often posts a response very close behind, like clockwork. )
Mackie why didn’t you add you name beside Lucky & Elena? I do not think everyone is racist. That’s foolish. Racist is very harsh word, and gets thrown around way too often. I would say we all have prejudices, but NOT everybody is the R-word.
Now, YOUR comments discredit you, Mackie, and not Lucky Duck or anyone else. You do a fine job all on your own. Oh, and those stupid a$$ youtubes you post, don’t do help either. Of course, you want to blame anyone that you ASSUME is white.
We haven’t seen the R-word on this board for a few weeks. Now, here it is again, because you are back making your assumptions. I’ve seen several respond like clockwork to your comments.
Wackie Mackie, your racist views are exceeded only by your consistent complaining and whining. What is my specific agenda? Your paranoia?
Firedancer, you said you skim the blog and in doing so you may have missed that his posts blame whites for virtually every negative factor faced by any minority – and its not a view that I alone hold.
Perhaps you would see it better in print if everytime he posts a raced based commentary about Whites, I put into print a like minded, inane comment about Hispanics.
I think Chris just said what many people have been thinking.
I agree with Chris’ comments too. It was quite nice for a few weeks not to see the “R-word” tossed around this blog. If you use a word too much and apply it to far too many things, it becomes essentially meaningless and devalued. That is exactly what has happened at times on this blog in the past and could be in danger of happening again. People’s eyes start to glaze over when they see that word repeated over and over again.
Just wondering, Shelly, if you’ve ever been to NC and seen the problems there. My grandparents live in Charlotte and have lived there for the entire lives (mt grandfather is 88). They’ve seen their share of racism, specifically forced busing.
Because of the influx of illegal immigrants to Charlotte, it has become a different city entirely. My grandparents can no longer go to certain areas of the city because of the harassasment they get from day laborers. Houses on their street have 3 and 4 families living in 3 BR/1 BA houses. The noise and litter is unbareable. My grandparents have lived in that house for over 50 years and live on a fixed income and don’t want to move (and shouldn’t HAVE to).
What is your answer? Make the citizens leave so Charlotte can turn into little Mexico?
Anon, I know there are a lot of elderly people in my area who are intimidated by large groups of men hanging about. So I imagine it happens in NC as well. I understand completely where they are coming from. I am not sure of the best solution. But if the behavior is the problem and not the ethnicity, then it seems that any solution that leads to racial profiling is not the best. There are Constitutional issues involved, and even if you don’t support certain parts of the Constitution that get in the way of such things, you do have to admit that it is very costly for localities to fight Constitutional legal battles.
Chris,
Having prejudices amounts to the same thing. It’s not about being perfect. Better to recognize the reality that everyone is capable of racism and then ask, what now?
Certain people here try to paint me as racist against whites but that’s not true. They have a lot to answer for. It’s up to white people to recognize their special responsibility in this area. Or they can choose to not recognize it.
I’m a racist, you’re a racist, he’s a racist, she’s a racist, wouldn’t you like to be a racist too?
Mackie has now graduated from ‘resident racist’ to ‘self admitted racist’. Congrats Mackie, I’m not sure where you can pick up your diploma but I have a few suggestions on where to put it.
a) I don’t really appreciate Mackie’s version of “bad, bad, white man”, but however I have to say that Mackie has NOT graduated into racism…TLC has done it for him… lets look at their love (via TV) of wacky white supremists. Lets take a Looooong look at the Duggars in (gasp) ARK, TLC’s main virulently procreating family, who weekly promote their beliefs from the “Church of the Holy Living Room”, and each and every month have yet another “special announcement” (pregnancy) that they send out via NBC. They have a TV show to promote Bill Gothard’s mission statement: procreate white people!!!!! I am a white person and a loose Catholic, but duh, even I see what they are trying to do.
Maybe Mackie and KG can get together and fight racism together. Oh, wait – KG was shot down tonight and her true colors (no pun intended) where shown.
@Slowpoke Rodriguez
Very funny. 🙂
@Mackie
I’ve NEVER tried to paint you or anyone else anything. Again, your words/post stand on their own merit, or lack thereof. You really should go back and read some of posts. I’m not one to villify others, and this includes those with opinions different than mine.
We are all member of the HUMAN race, Mackie. That’s how I see things. No you have contempt for humans of all races, backgrounds, religions, etc. ?
I look at individuals, and try not to lump people together. Clearly, we see the world differently, and that’s fine.
It’s not about whether or not you are a racist because we all are. It’s about who actually has the power to act on their racism and impose their abuse upon others. The group would be white people. Will that change in the future? Not likely, but if it does, we can address it at that time.
Are statements offensive simply because Mackie is the one who made them? I believe his statement above is accurate (if my blockquote worked-first time trying). We all harbor prejudices, even unconsciously, but many of us have been educated enough to recognize those feelings for what they are and not act on them.
I’m not sure what to say to that Firedancer… so, your saying that you agree with Mackie that ‘white people’ are the only true racists because they have power to impose their abuse? Wow, please tell me I’ve got that wrong.
I can tell you that there isn’t a racist bone in my body nor do I harbor prejudices. That’s the kind of backwards logic that only perpetuates racism in this country. I’m not sure how old you or Mackie are but to me it’s mostly older people that seem to feel that way. Maybe it’s the way you were brought up, I don’t know but I certainly wasn’t taught that kind of thinking and to tell you the truth it’s a little frightening that anyone would honestly believe that. Unbelievable…
Hello, Mackie isn’t saying that whites are the only true racists. He’s saying we all, as humans, harbor racist thoughts. Since we’re not actually defining what “racist” means, though, we don’t know if we’re all interpreting that word in the same way. He’s also saying that historically whites have had the power to actually act on these beliefs, to whit the very formation of this land being snatched from the indigenous residents as well as the institution of slavery.
I am saying this in a purely objective tone, nothing to get upset about as it is a statement of fact. I’m saying this from a sociological standpoint. You can take a whole class about this.
Hello, we all harbor prejudices, whether we–or you–admit them or not. Like I said, most of us keep them to ourselves and don’t act on them. For example, how many white people feel nervous at the sight of a young, black male in baggy pants walking down the street towards them? They might know they’re not supposed to feel that way so they don’t outwardly react or wouldn’t dream of saying anything about it, but the feeling is there. Another example: How many straight people make jokes about gay people? In particular, how many straight men make insulting comments about gay guys? That’s not racist, but that’s prejudice. How many parents, secretly inside, would have to have a mental adjustment if their kid dated someone of a different race? They might do their best to be supportive, but they’d still have to work on it.
Come on, hello, if you tell me there isn’t a racist bone in your body or that you don’t harbor prejudice against any kind of group or person, I believe you’re just not being honest with yourself. I’m not saying that you act on them, but you instinctively get a reaction.
ShellyB, the issue is not that racial profiling occurs in very limited cases (likely less than 1 officer out of 10,000 that commits this offense), but that a VERY few set of actual cases and mostly unsubstantiated testimony (believed as factual but is not factual as any personal testimony usually is when not under oath), is being used to provide unsubstiated proof that 287G should not be implemented, and that Illegals should be allowed to remain.
The problem is not 287G, the problem is the lack of law enbforcement on people who break the law, at ALL levels of government.
The majority population of the US (some 180-250 million people) are FURIOUS at the degree of corruption and greed in our country and the degree we are turning rapidly into a third world impoverished nation of self-segregating class structures all wanting a privilige only for their own ethnic, gender, religious or racial group, even if it means ignoring or breaking the law and hurting the vast majority of Americans with increased poverty, lower wages, fraud and lawlessness, all done in order to benefit and feel sorry for 12 Million “illegal” immigrants.
The “tea-parties” occurring around the country are a citizen uprising against ALL of this corruption and lawlessnes, that will continue to grow in anger and intensity (just as it did in the 1760s) over the corruption of the government, the corruption and ignorance of congress to take care of the majority, and the corruption of government at all levels of government and the financial/business sector, that benefits only the upper 1% of the richest in America and ONLY benefits the lower 10% of the poorest in America with free handouts. If you do the numbers on who benefits the most from OBAMA’s policy, you will find that some 250 billion dollars in infrastructure improvements will go to primarily to 45 Million illegal and formerly illegal immigrants who have made up the lowest income group, will benefit the most from ARRA and will continue to break and ignore the law in pursuit of personal greed.
SheelyB got it right…partly
“But if the behavior is the problem and not the ethnicity, then it seems that any solution that leads to racial profiling is not the best.”
The behavior is the problem. The solution is to target the behavior and not the ethnicity. This is what I have said all along.
HOW do you target the behavior of lawbreakers? You create and then ENFORCE a law that applies to everyone equally. For example the original 287G supporting resolution REQUIRED all police officers to treat everyone the same under the same law and to ASK EVERYONE about their legal status BASED ON THEIR BEHAVIOR IN BREAKING A TRAFFIC LAW, whenever they were stopped for a traffic violation. In addition IF they are arrested, a 287G mandatory “illegal” status check will be made at the jail.
The new resolution, now does NOT REQUIRE all police officers to treat everyone the same and they can ask anyone they wish what their legal status is based on their JUDGEMENT (or their beliefs) allowing them to stop people based on ethnicity alone (even though it is against printed police policy) or BEHAVIOR AND ethnicity if they CHOOSE to. If they choose to arrest those they pull over now because of suspicion of lawbreaking, then in addition to Choosing who they will pull over, they can CHOOSE who to arrest and who to let go based on their OPINION or suspicion of lawbreaking. IF they are arrested, a 287G mandatory check will be made at the jail.
I think it is far more likely that racial profiling WILL and DOES occur at a slighly higher rate with the new resolution than with the old one. It is really a question of how much you trust the police (the majority of them) to do their jobs professionally.
The bottom line is in both cases “illegal” immigrants are still being arrested if suspected of being “illegal”, and are definately set for DEPORTATION hearings if they are discovered to be “illegal” immigrants at the jail.
I will not be happy until all 12 Million “illegal” immigrants are efventually forced to go back home (because they canot get any jobs here), and force ALL who have broken our laws, have harmed all of us, have increased our poverty, have created an ethnic class that wants more privilege than the rest of us, have created an ethnic political movement that is undermining democracy in America, and has caused significant negative and declining standards of living in every community some 45 million formerly illegal and currently illegal immigrants have moved into to be held accountable for those injustices they have inflicted on the rest of US by their very “illegal” behaviors.
Firedancer I believe your alanysis is one sided. How many people today, compared to 50 years ago have risen above racism and prejudice and treat everyone as an individual? How many “majority” ethnicities today look at all people as individuals rather than groups to be dispised and segregated under different laws.
Contrast that to the growth of MINORITY HATE GROUPS, far left radicals that support socialism over democracy, lawlessness over civil peace and prosperity, growth of “illegal” immigrants who do not believe in democratic values and if they do, do not respect anyone other than their own ethnicity? Contrast that to the growth of MAJORITY HATE GROUPS, far right religious radicals (only caring about their own religion as a GROUP), rather than respect all “individuals”.
We as a nation made progress agaist prejudice from 1950 to 1990. From 1990-2009 we disintegrated law, ignored law and increased political corruption, and as a result of this and corruption, and majority hatred by the minority in congress, we are reversing this progress and are headed back into segregated classes, segregated laws, widespread greed and corruption by minority interest groups (black, hispanic, muslim and christian radical elements of the society) and increasingly see majority oppression by ethnic, gender, religious and racial minority political groups.
The anger about ALL of this is RISING in the majority US population (in tea parties) and it will continue to rise until wide-spread respect and enforcement of existing law reduces greed, foreign takeover of US interests, reduces poverty, and eliminates wide-spread social and political corruption.
My post was not meant to go against Mackie and his belief system. Yeah I know I’m white, I own the “guilt”, yeah I’m the problem, so to speak.And yes, i have a bone to pick with him. I posted what I did because I CAN…I can because I am white and religious person and i can claim that TLC is promoting a fundie, white supremist cult on their airways for the advertising dollars they may receive. See…even white folk can be aware of when they’re being used.
DB,
That is a pretty harsh statement against the Duggars. Now, personally, I don’t get the desire to be a baby making machine, however, that still does NOT equate to the rationalization that they are a “white supremist cult”. Please clarify if I have misunderstood your point.
My daughter tells me I failed pop culture 101. Will DB and Elena please explain this Duggars stuff to me. I found them on the website. Why does everyone in the world know about this couple other than me?
Are these people on The Learning Channel? There is a major reason why this has probably escaped me. ewwwwww
yes, they are on the learning channel. It started out with “15 and Counting” I think she is going for an even 20. They seem nice enough, very well behaved, very religious. Personally, from my perspective, it seems like the older children do alot of the child raising. I remember the mom saying once, she has the new babies for the first three months, all to herself, and then the baby is paired up with a “buddy” to help care for them. Something about that just bothered me a little.
Gee, why weren’t there any “tea parties” during the 8 years of Bush?
The Tea parties are a good sign of the grassroots.
Really Mackie? Seems to me it represents the outreach of Fox News. Where was there outrage at Bush, his spending, his over reaching executive power, the “leaks” for political gain? Bush could do no wrong and Obama can do no right. At least CNN and other stations are critiquing Obama on several different points.
Elena,
The “white supremist” stuff comes from their very own “religious” Bill G. A whole bunch of “white Christian soldier” nonsense, combined with a “race” to populate the earth with good Christian soilders. Go on ja20.com and read all about “the race”. Add into the equation that women in his sect are required, that is REQUIRED to be submissive to men. As a part of the submission they are not permitted to be educated beyond their homeschooled experience. Their marriages are arranged at an early age. And what do they receive? Their very own television show. Each and every time a person in their family/sect gets pregnant, what do they receive? A spot on the today show. And don’t get me started on the whole “blanket training” thing which equates to a call to CPS. They are white supremists who go to El Salvador on a “mission”, and say such stupid things as “Backo out of the wayo” ON CAMERA, and then go on and on about how there aren’t people in the US that are nearly as poor as the farmer they visited. The farmer by the way had a huge crop of corn, 3 pigs, numerous chickens and roof over his family’s head. But according to TLC and the well informed Duggars, the family was living in abject poverty (of el salvadorian standards?). Maybe I shouldn’t be as mean in my opinion of the Duggars, but come on quit trying to get me to fund the emperors clothes already.