Sometimes it is just better to sit back and watch. Today’s Washington Post continues the debate on Prince William County’s crime report. Clearly, people have their own interpretation of what has happened.
Basically, the debate is as follows:
With the release of the new data, which cover the first 10 months of enforcement, people on both sides of the debate claim that the numbers prove their case. Advocates of the policy say the low numbers of illegal immigrants arrested show that it is working as a deterrent. Opponents say the statistics show that the rhetoric about the safety threat posed by illegal immigrants was overblown.
By one measure, critics said, the policy has failed: The County’s crime rate rose last year for the first time since 2004. That increase was driven largely by a surge in property crime, including burglaries and larcenies. But the number of major violent crimes plummeted almost 22 percent from the year before — more proof, advocates say that the policy has worked.
“I think what the stats show is the effectiveness of the program,” said Board of Supervisors Chairman Corey A. Stewart (R-At Large), who fought hard for passage of the policy.
As evidence that the measure is working, Stewart pointed out that illegal immigrants were charged with several homicides in 2007, compared with none in 2008. Two men who were in the country illegally were charged with four of Prince William’s nine homicides in 2007, police said.
“There were a series of very serious crimes, high-profile crimes committed by illegal aliens” before the policy, Stewart said. “Frankly, illegal immigrants have done one of two things: They have either left the county, or they simply are being very careful not to commit any crimes and end up in jail.”
Corey is attempting to turn a year or 2 into a theory. Crime statistics just don’t work that way Corey. Experts in the field believe our crime statistics are as they are because of Chief Deane’s leadership in getting more professionals involved in crime fighting. It stands to reason, the more cops out there, the fewer crimes committed and the fewer committed crimes that go unsolved. Our police force is just excellent and our police chief has an extremely good national reputation.
There is much good in Prince William County. There is much to crow about. However, the Immigration Resolution isn’t one of those things. It caused dissention amongst residents and brought an undesirable focus on our county. Corey Stewart ought to be promoting the county based on the professional accomplishments of Chief Deane and a lowered crime rate (prior to 2008), rather than attempting to blow sunshine all over himself for ‘running the illegals out of town.’
I am particularly proud of our county having the guts to do that which the Feds have been unable or unwilling to do! I am very proud that our BOCS didn’t just sit back on its rump and say “oh, it’s a federal problem”. Our county has only suffered reputation damage to those whose opinions are without value to begin with….so I fail to see the problem.
Hmmm, interesting comment from Slowpoke. How do you determine the opinions that have value? Are they the ones that agree with yours? What’s your criteria, Slowpoke?
George E. Tita, an associate professor of criminology, law and society at the University of California at Irvine, said the charges against illegal immigrants are, in part, due to their circumstance. They can’t get driver’s licenses and often can’t get legitimate work, so arrests for prostitution and driving without a license are to be expected, he said.
“If you can’t find a legitimate job, you’re going to enter the underground economy,” Tita said. “It’s really easy to create some sort of moral panic or demonize some sort of group when you have a couple of high-profile murders. . . . . Illegal aliens are like the rest of us in the sense that there’s a distribution. . . . There’s a lot of good people, and then there are some people that are not so good.”
My favorite quote. Boy, if PWC doesn’t epitomize the false hysteria created about the “general lawlessness” I don’t know what does. I am wondering how Corey plans of implementing the premise of his negative hypothesis regarding the resolution working because there weren’t alot of illegal immigrants charged with crimes. HUH????? Maybe, just maybe Corey, it’s because the hysteria was false and unsubstantiated except that losts of latino people had moved into PWC.
Yep, that’s it, Firedancer! I’m not going to pretend…..but that’s the funny thing about opinions, isn’t it? And it works both ways, too! I wouldn’t expect my opinion to matter to, say, NCLR. I was there at the marathon BOCS sessions, and I heard folks say their friends from Maryland called us all kinds of ignorant names, and I mused to myself that such a thing would never happen to me.
Professor Tita, perhaps for want of clarity, seems to give illegal immigrants one option, to enter the underground economy. He doesn’t seem to be able to see the other obvious choice of deciding that entering another country illegally might have been an ill-informed idea and to proceed home where these “underground” problems don’t exist! And we’re still not getting the joke of saying “not all illegal immigrants” commit crimes, overlooking the “illegal” part. There are reasons they call them “illegal immigrants”….because they’ve all committed a crime. 100%, that is. And I’ll even give “there’s no illegal person” argument, because there sure IS such a thing as a person’s illegal presence!
Slow, I think Professor Tita just acknowledged that that illegal immigrants do enter the underground economy if they find no other way to support themselves.
Also, let’s comare someone who entered from Mexico illegal, or didn’t renew their TPS in time, or an Salvadoran woman who joined her husband here on a TPS without documentation, or some Irish bartender who just didn’t go home at the end of 3 months. Those are rather minor crimes, now aren’t they? Let’s compare those crimes to embezzling, rape, arson or murder. Who would you want to live next door to? That old ‘they are already criminals’ wears thin with me because it is getting so old.
I also want to point out that not all of the prostitution cases in PW Co. were Latin Americans. I certainly hope no one is going to pick that one up and run with it. Some of the prostitutes arrested were those who must have overstayed their visa since I can see no way else for them to have gotten here.
Interesting group of people Jonathan Mommolo decided to interview. This is why I felt it was going to be fun to sit back and watch this one. Anti voiced its opinion a week or so ago.
And speaking of those black velvets, they sure have provided a great deal of entertainment lately. I love the hypocrisy, especially of the fearless leader who had a fit about 7-8 months ago when some cut and pasting was done over on his place. However, it is fair game to do it to anti and to have such a dastardly deed pasted into the annals of the blog.
Ah yes, it’s a fun watch….
Debate? It’s really not much of a debate. Two sides picking and choosing facts that support their pre-drawn conclusion. The article mentions one Alan Wessol. His opinion is not at all influenced by the actual results. He’s just going to believe whatever he wants to believe despite facts. If a fact supports his opinion, then it’s “See. I told you so.” If a fact doesn’t support his opinion, then he’ll make excuses like “crimes committed by illegal aliens are underreported”.
And how is “they’re just here doing the jobs Americans won’t do” holdin’ up for ya?
I was amused by this article as well, M-H. Particularly the puzzlement of some of the HSM faithful.
I think any sentient adult reading this article will conclude that statistical data and intelligent analysis has now overwhelmed and negated the usual Corey Stewart and “Help Save Manassas” fear propaganda.
But in Stewart’s defense, it is difficult if not impossible for him to resist offering a misleading and/or illogical defense of the county’s costly immigration policy in light of the damaging statistical data recently released. Were Stewart to have somehow managed NOT to be quoted in this article, it would have appeared as if he was admitting responsibility for the grave failure in leadership that was the Immigration Resolution.
If not for these embarrassing statistics, I expect Stewart would have kept his promise to stop touting right wing social issues and focus instead on pocketbook issues that actually fall within our county’s jurisdiction.
Slow, that one is wearing thin also. I really don’t care much for repeated sound-bites.
WHWN, CS can’t help himself. He sees a mike and out comes the gun to shoot himself in the foot. Are there pills to make him stop doing that?
This article is a lot better than what we used to have a year ago, where Corey Stewart’s lies got first billing and Chief Deane’s very polite contradiction of Stewart’s lies were buried in the middle somewhere. But it puzzles me that the reporter quoted Donna W. as if she were NOT one of the most fanatical GGG’s (Gospel Greg Groupies) in the county. Is this reporter a new hire or something? Doesn’t he know who she is?
Well, Slow, at least I know you were being cynical. I guess you’re right. It does run both ways since I certainly unconsciously devalue certain opinions.
To everyone, at least those whose opinions are the same as mine about undocumented immigrants:
I recommend that you all see the movie, “Sin Nombre”. I saw it last night, and was in tears at the end. Because I am naturally sympathetic to their situation, I found it overwhelming. I just don’t want to listen to crap blaming the “illegals” for being so poor that they see no other remedy but to endure extreme danger in search of survival, from a neighbor who has thought nothing of exploiting them when convenient and in national interest. Those who proclaim love for humanity on this holy day ought to be more concerned about working to fix the inequities that cause poverty and hopelessness, and young people to join gangs. We are all LUCKY to have been born in the U.S. or to be here now, and should not be despising those who don’t have our good fortune.
@ Firedancer
Those are very wise and decent words to ponder, Firedancer. I think they are especially poignant this weekend since 2 major religions both celebrate holy days. Both of these religions hold, as a major tenent, the thought: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If we could all live by those words, wars would be over, violence would cease, and we would all be much better human beings.
@Firedancer
That was beautiful Firedancer, thank you. On this day, and really every day, we should all work to help our fellow human being.
“There is much good in Prince William County. There is much to crow about. However, the Immigration Resolution isn’t one of those things. It caused dissention amongst residents and brought an undesirable focus on our county.” AMEN!
For what it’s worth, here were my comments on WAPO:
———————————————–
Here’s the problem: 287g probably works, but the original version of the resolution put us on the map as a bunch of racist, money-wasting fools. When that happened, many residents decided it was time to try to offset the negative results the resolution had.
The policy currently in place isn’t the one that originally passed. The original resolution exacerbated an already declining housing market as well as existing racism.
The intent always should have been to treat people fairly but get criminals off the street. By checking citizen status of every person arrested, and by refusing to target specific ethnic groups, our police can prevent racial profiling and work within the perimeters of the current federal system. Trying to handle a federal issue on a local level is socio-economic suicide.
I would like to see the negative ramifications of this resolution die. Unfortunately, until the federal government does something about immigration problems, and until local governments encourage federal change through positive action, PWC and other areas will continue to be affected, leaving yet one more excuse for racism and discrimination.
The damage has already been done, and dismantling the infrastructures that allowed this to happen continues to be an uphill battle.
But we need to let people know there is far more to PWC than the immigration debate, and we need to get that message out loud and clear.
That analysis makes sense to Pink. The Supervisors knew there were budget issues coming down the pike, many of them including Convington warned that we were extending our resources with this. Now, on top of being expensive, we know the immigration resolution has been a failure. There are those who called it ahead of time, and there are those who did not. You called it a head of time, and I don’t see any problem with someone who called it ahead of time being on one of these committees. That’s better than one of the koolaid drinkers.
**I meant to say your analysis makes sense to me.
TY, WHWN.
@Firedancer
And I would like to recommend “Border War” and “Border” both excellent documentaries, and I don’t mean documentary in the sense of the 9500 liberty, michael moore steaming piles, either.
FYI – Before we leave the discussion of high school dropout rates
for individuals in the Class of 2008 where Manassas was blasted
as having the highest rate in the area – 11.75%; please note
Woodbridge(11.5%), Freedom(12.7%), Stonewall Jackson(16.8%) and
Gar-Field(17%).(WaPo PW Section -4-12-2009).
“The report also showed more than 24% of Hispanic students in
Prince William dropped out.”
When you compare schools, compare apples to apples – cohorts to cohorts.
These are more appropriately regarded as documentaries about middle aged and older men who can’t accept future demographic reality. What an embarrassing thing to have your mid-life crisis played out on the big screen. Some men buy sportcars which at least helps the economy…but these guys put on their warpaint and run around chasing desperate people looking to put food on the table. This is now the definition of courage as defined by these white americans who’ve got too much time on their hands. And the fearsome invader they use as a foil in the glorious drama that is their story?…an exhausted, cringing everyday man asking for bit of water and some food and just to be left alone.
Has this blog completely lost it’s nerve?
A few days ago, the 287g program was being investigated by a congressional committee. Ample evidence was produced regarding it’s nature as an excuse to racially profile under the color of the law.
Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HXm6PyaJa4
and here’s Ray Tranchant racially profiling in front of the congressional committee when he tells a latino citizen sitting next to him to ‘Go Home!’ at the end of his testimony:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRuEaIBMSa0
If the congress deems it necessary to hear testimony concerning 287g, perhaps this blog can find the courage too…
But you guys would rather post puff pieces about somali pirates.
Mackie, I watched both links. I thought the first one was extremely informative and the points were very well made. Thanks for sharing. But you didn’t have to blame anyone while you were at it. We all bring different perspectives and learn from one another even if we don’t always agree.
Also, Mackie, that first video makes a really strong case against 287g. In some ways North Caroline sounds worse than Prince William County even though the Immigration Resolution was a lot more radical.
I think the second video makes an even stronger case as you see the unabashed racial profiling right in front of the congressional committee. Ray Tranchant went even further in his testimony and called illegal immigrants ‘banditos’.
This is the kind of bigotry that proponents of 287g are hoping to unleash under the color of the law. How can anyone deny that?
Well, in the second video I feel sorry for the man. He was driven to racism by tragedy. Whatever side of the issue you are on, a single incident, or a single person’s offensive remark should not make or break an important policy decision. The testimony in the first video looks at the bigger picture. That’s why I liked it better. When did that happen?
Oh, never mind that last question.
I think it’s probably inaccurate to say this guy was driven to racism due to a bad experience. This notions ignores the fact that racism is all around us. It absolves us of responsibility. Even blacks absorb the racism around them and practice bigotry against other blacks, especially the darker skinned ones.
This man, like many others, has probably harbored racist beliefs, and now has found a socially acceptable outlet for them.
Sure, what happened was a tragedy but it doesn’t give him a pass. How many immigrants die horrible deaths trying to cross the border each year? And what of their families who never find out what happened to their loved ones. If this man had a tragedy, it is one in a sea of tragedies.
And make no mistake. The point of his story is not so much that a young white female died. That is not the point since young white females die all the time.
The unspoken subtext is that a young white female died at the hands of a dirty mexican. That is exactly the kind of thing that traditionally sparks the mob mentality. The idea is to figuratively lynch mexicans if not literally. People may not be openly calling for a literal lynching. For that, at least, we can be grateful. But what they will do is…nothing. Absolutely nothing as the rights of minorities are violated.
The instincts that made a Rosewood possible are still there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472ZkFhGl0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJR-liiw3Ms
Well, the good news is….with today’s pharmacology, there’s no reason why these symptoms can’t be alleviated. Ask your handlers at St. Elizabeth’s about Clozapine! My guess is you’ll find some peace with that.
And the funniest thing of all is to watch ShellyB swallow down anything Mackie feeds her. Birds of a feather!
Slowpoke, it isn’t nice to make fun of mentally ill people who really do need medication.
Incidentally, 287g can work if it’s implemented correctly.
Thought I’d share my latest from the Washington Post article. It has devolved into name-calling there as well.
It seems to me the anti-immigrant and anti-illegal immigrant folks on this blog are facing two problems:
1) History is not on their side
2) The complexity of law enforcement and the reality of operating a government is not on their side.
Others have confronted them with the former. I have confronted them with the latter. To the former they respond with insults. To the latter they respond with lies.
This is why I suggest that we confront them with the realities and complexities of governing, instead of the tragedies and injustices of history.
Insults are difficult to respond to.
Lies are easy to respond to.
Local law enforcement requires a level of trust between police officers and the people they are sworn to serve and protect. Any good law enforcement officer knows he/she is sworn to protect minorities as well as the majority ethnic group. The Citizen Satisfaction Survey for Prince William County, sited in this article, shows that minority communities in PWC, particularly African Americans and Hispanics, have lost trust in the Police Department. This is a tell tale sign that they are less willing to report crimes, and less willing to share information with police, and less willing to serve as witnesses in crime investigations. That makes it more difficult for the police to perform their sworn duty: to serve and protect.
The fact is that PWC is nearly 50% minority. That means that a large section of the population has lost trust in the police force as a result of Corey Stewart and John Stirrup’s grandstanding on the “illegal immigration” issue, the media attention, and the appearance that the police department had been co-opted by the nativist extremist group that supported Stewart and Stirrup’s reelection in Nov. 2007.
As a result, not only has our crime rate gone UP, we also have a higher number of unreported crimes. Unreported crimes lead to more crime in general, because criminals know they can come to PWC, and if they victimize Hispanics, for instance, they are less likely to go to the police.
(This was already a problem long before the immigration hysteria of 2007 … in 2006 Chief Deane implemented his robbery unit in response to this tactic of victimizing Hispanics in robberies … this is one of the major factors why, in the robbery and assault categories, crime had continued to go down in PWC. No, Chief Deane’s Robbery Unit is not part of the Immigration Resolution, so the Immigration Resolution should NOT be credited for those areas were crime has gone down).
So, while it is effective to remind anti-immigrant extremists that American history is a history of illegal immigration, and that the United States is a nation of illegal immigrants … it just doesn’t get you nearly as far as confronting them with present day realities and complexities.
It was these realities and complexities that allowed the more moderate Supervisors on the BOCS, and the silent majority of citizens in PWC, to render the Immigration Resolution all but harmless, by removing the racial profiling element of the police mandate. The damage was done, of course, and that is why we have all the economic damage, and 50% higher taxes as I described below.
Taken together, the economic consequences and the negative effect on our public safety are the TWO biggest reasons why the Immigration Resolution was a failure in Prince William County. The Hispanic population did not grow in 2007 and 2008 as it had in previous years, but it did not significantly shrink either. And now it is growing again.
The Resolution therefore succeeded in only one of its goals, and that was to get John Stirrup and Corey Stewart reelected in 2007. This anti-immigrant exploitation strategy was supposed to be a blueprint for the 2008 Presidential race, but then John McCain was chosen as the nominee, a decent man, and a war hero, who had already learned the lessons I have described on this thread, and is too much of a patriot to inflict such damage on our nation’s economy and our public safety.
Slow, I too, was wondering where the resident racist was hiding. I think maybe now he’s out on bond or work release. With apologizes to Anesthesia, I did enjoy your humor slow.
WHWN, I would like to think that John McCain was chosen as the nominee in ’08 because most of the Republicans who voted are decent and patriotic people, starting with New Hampshire.
The closing statement of your post reminded me of a statement by Defense Secretary Gates saying, imploring all Americans to “rise above parochial interests and consider what is in the best interest of the nation as a whole.” I wonder if this can be done on the immigration issue the way it is now being done on military spending (the subject of Mr. Gates’ quote).
I think there are a lot of people who are more interested in seeing the government help them take some sort of vengeance against people they see as invaders ruining our culture. Blinded as they are, these people are interested in blocking any solution that would be best for the nation as a whole. But as was the case when McCain was picked, the number of people who put parochial interests before the national interest is a very small part of the Republican party, not large enough to defeat McCain, and not large enough to defeat Comprehensive Immigration Reform.
Mackie: thanks for the description of “Border Wars” and “Border”. I get the picture.
Slow: if I ever get to see them, I’ll let you know my impressions. You can let me know what you think of “Sin Nombre”. Everyone I know who has seen it is profoundly moved, but then again, we are like-minded already.
WHWN: brilliant analysis above
Yes, Mackie, thanks for the reviews of Slowpoke’s favorite films. I can certainly see why they would appeal to him based on that. Ugh.
And I just reread it. That WAS a brilliant analysis. Hope you are getting a good response on WaPo.
I thought this was a debate about “illegal” immigrants.
287G targets and locates “illegal” immigrants that have committed crimes, and when it identifies them takes steps to inform ICE so they can do their job, to protect all of the rest of us from having those “crimes” comitted by “illegal” immigrants repeated (some 660 of them in this past year). I guess most of you don’t want these criminals deported do you? That doesn’t seem too smart or even rational to me.
Why do most of you continue to muddy the waters with crime statistics that are un-correllated with “ethnicities” and pretend that they in some way justify your arguments that we should support “legal” immigration because we are also fighting “illegal” immigration? Could it be because most of you have personal relationship reasons focused on supporting just your own minority or ethnicity self-interests? Every time I see people make this an ethnicity issue, I am acutely aware of the self segregation promotion and blatant cultural privilige racism that is at its core.
The nation is turning into a nation of “self-destructive” racial supremacists of the minority kind…
I would think that elimnating the national poverty and illegal behavior of all kinds contributed in large part by 12 million “illegal” immigrants would be in the greatest self interests of the nation. To continue to allow “illegal” immigrants to operate and exist in the nation without permission is to continue to increase poverty and decrease the national GDP, while ignoring law and promoting lawlessness.
Welcome to the new Americanism of “social disorder and divided class-based political structures” and say good-by to what used to be a “democracy” that took care of the majority of people instead of just 12 million “illegal” immigrants.
@ShellyB
[Read Completely Monotone]
Yes, Mackie. Whatever you say, I believe, Mackie. You only speak the unbiased truth, Mackie. Yes. Yes. Everyone is racist. Your rantings could never be anything but pure wisdom Mackie. Yes…..We….Can….
Slowpoke, you are too funny. I never noticed this sense of humor of yours! (Hey, I don’t have time to contribute much here, but I am a frequent reader, or at least skimmer)
You know what, I am a fan of Mackie’s too. I think he speaks the truth in a way that white people don’t want to hear.
Michael, I am in favor of deporting criminals, and I do understand that letting in the world’s poor increases the poverty rate in this country. I believe we do need to work to end the conditions that cause people to risk their lives to sneak into this country, because it’s an awful way to live. But to go on and on about the “illegals” as if they were subhuman? No way. That’s wrong too.
I had no idea that Slowpoke had become a fan of Mackie. Just goes to show that when people share ideas openly, sometimes the close-minded can be opened just a little bit. Mackie, keep at it. There is hope for Slowpoke yet!
Check this BurgerKing Ad out:
http://lauramartinez.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/texicanwhopper.jpg
Check out the little dude….AWESOME!!!
Here’s the video ad…..I’m peeing on myself laughing!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xr1VTuksQc
Michael, you should watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HXm6PyaJa4
I’d like to hear your response. This woman is Caucasian and yet she is concerned about upholding the Constitution, and protecting minorities from unlawful racial profiling. What do you think of her?
Slow, I’m not usually obtuse, but I don’t get it. Is it supposed to be a real commercial?
@Firedancer
Yes, it’s a real commercial for a Burger King product in Europe. It’s in the news right now. Apparently, Mexico isn’t too happy about it. Can’t imagine why!