Today, 89 year old John Demjanjuk was deported from the United States and put on a plane for Germany. This deportation has been going on since 1977, when the retired auto worker was accused of being a guard in a Nazi death camp.
According to the AP article:
The deportation came four days after the U.S. Supreme Court refused to consider Demjanjuk’s request to block deportation and about 3 1/2 years after he was last ordered deported.
The Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk (pronounced dem-YAHN’-yuk) is wanted on a Munich arrest warrant that accuses him of 29,000 counts of accessory to murder as a guard at the Sobibor death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland. The legal case spans three decades.
Damjanjuk denies the charges and has maintained all along that he was held as a Soviet prisoner of war by the Germans.
Rabbi Marvin Hier, a founder of the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center, said Demjanjuk deserves to be punished and that this will probably be the last trial of someone accused of Nazi war crimes.
“His work at the Sobibor death camp was to push men, women and children into the gas chamber,” Hier said in a statement. “He had no mercy, no pity and no remorse for the families whose lives he was destroying.”
The center was established to locate and help bring to justice Nazi war criminals.
The deportation capped a day in which Demjanjuk said goodbye to his family and was visited by two priests at his home in Seven Hills, a Cleveland suburb.
He then slipped quietly into an ambulance parked in his driveway, his family members standing at the edge of the garage and holding up a floral-patterned bed sheet to block the view of reporters and photographers across the street.
Apparently Damjanjek’s citizenship was revoked. He is an old man. Should he be punished? Was he ‘just following orders?’ How long should a person’s crimes against humanity follow them? Why did the rabbi say this man is probably the final Nazi who will be prosecuted?
A great deal has been said on this blog about Nazis. What do we do when we find a real Nazi? A part of me thinks this is an old, old man who lived out his life in another time away from the insanity of WWII Germany. Another part of me thinks that the last villain should be hunted down and punished. I think of Alex’s mother, who forgave her son’s murderer and did not want him to receive the death penalty. Would I manifest such compassion? I hardly think so.
No Amnesty for Demjanjuk.
Given that he may have been responsible for ordering roughly 29,000 people to their deaths, he should have been put on trial a long time ago actually. He fought for many years through legal means his deportation to Germany. Yes, he is a frail old man, but does that give him a pass for his possible crimes? I don’t know the answer to that. If he hadn’t fought deportation for so many years (like 20 or more) he would have gone to trial when he was younger, and found out if he was innocent or guilty per jury of his peers in Germany. Yes, if I was related to one of his victims, I would not hold much compassion for him even at his advanced age – especially since again, he fought via lawyers for many years deportation to Germany for trial.
I think what the rabbi said was, there are really no other still living Nazi death camp collaborators that haven’t been caught. All of them have died off, as if you were in early 20’s say in 1941, you would now be in your late 80’s just like he is. So the odds are, no other former Nazis are going to turn up. For awhile there was thought to be one in Brazil, but he never turned up. This one (if he is truly “Ivan the Terrible”) has been known about for many many years actually – I’ll say he has been accused of being that person – and will let court decide if he is or isn’t.
It will be interesting to keep following this story. I remember news stories about him many years ago, I think this has been going on for 20 years if I’m not mistaken.
It is a somewhat controversial case now due to his advanced age and frailty. But again, I think he started fighting this 20 years ago when he was not quite so old nor quite so frail.
It makes one wonder why it takes this long to get to this stage. Gainesville, I also remember reading about him years ago. You make an excellent point. If he hadn’t found being deported all these years, he would not be evoking as much ‘old age’ pity.
It also makes me wonder how such a young man had that much power.
Manassas Ivan here. Demjanjuk probably lived the last 30 years with his family and friends(if he had any) knowing his real identity. Deportation is just the final icing on the cake. We can never foreget what he and his fellow Nazis did.
If my memory of history serves me correctly, the Nazi’s has no pity for the elderly Jewish victums at the camps. In fact, I believe they were eliminated first, along with the frail, the mentally disabled, the weak,the sick, etc., because they were of little value as labor.
History demands that Ivan and those like him deserve his day in court.
That’s funn Ivan – glad you are not “Ivan the Terrible”. Agreed though, he hid his identity for many years – but has been fighting deportation since 1977. Here’s latest update from CNN about his arrival in Germany:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/12/us.demjanjuk/index.html
From what I read there’s good evidence he IS Ivan the Terrible, and should have been held accountable for his crimes back in 1977 but he got good lawyers and successfully fought deportation all the way until now! Back then he wouldnt have been able to play the “old and frail” sympathy card!
I wonder if living was more of a punishment than imprisonment.
Probably not.
Nazis were collective nuts who got their start by following another nut–Hitler, a man who promised suffering people the moon as a means to his end. If you get enough people to believe in your vision and follow along without thought, enough people to go to extremes and even violence, the Holocaust may be what you get.
I have to think what comes around goes around. We return to this world we have created. If we create hell on Earth, we face the consequences one way or another, either directly or through our families.
We reap what we sow.
GR, the original Nazis might have died out, but their legacy of hate lives on in neo-Nazi-like groups. The sorrow lives on through the victims’ families and through concentration camp survivors who may have been children during WWII.
It’s up to us to make sure history never repeats itself. To do that, we must remain vigilant and stop haters before they become leaders.
Opinion – you summed it up nicely – quite right – Nazi’s did not care if you were young, or old and frail. As you say in fact they were less valuable for labor. Upon arrival at concentration camps, incoming prisoners were split into two groups – one group went to death chambers and other group went to become slave labor – often having to bury corpses of dead, or do other ugly jobs (hair from dead people was used as well as skin I think, in some cases turned into soap somehow – very disgusting, and they made the prisoners do that to those who were killed). So you are right, the old and sick were the first ones put to their deaths, in many cases. Either that or used as guinea pigs for medical experimentation. Much horrible stuff there, anyone who wants to know more about it go see Holocaust Museum in DC.
MH – as far as how a young man got so much power – Hitler recruited German youth’s at a young age – his idea of the blond hair/blue eyed “Arian” race of some such thing. No surprise that young German men in their late teens/early 20’s were recruited by Hitler and rapidly rose to power in his regime. Hitler was very charismatic to some people, made lots of promises of a better society, etc. etc.
meant to say “Arian race” OR some such thing in last post. Forget exact term of it, but that is close enough anyway.
This case has been in the courts since around 1987 when OSI (Office of Special Investigations) was formed in the Justice Department to conduct a final review of potential Nazis in the US.
Demjanjuk was first thought to be “Ivan the Terrible” and deported to Israel where he was convicted of being that particular camp guard. However, his conviction was thrown out by the Israeli High Court. Much of the information used by the US and given to Israel was provided by the archives of Russia after the downfall of the Soviet Union.
Demjanjuk, after being freed by Israel, returned to the US and was later found to have lied on his citizenship forms about working in a labor camp. That is what started the second set of proceedings.
While he is an old man, if he participated in labor camp proceedings and lied about it, he needs to be deported. There should be no statute of limitations on such behavior.
GR: An old joke we used to tell (at a whisper) in the cafes of Berlin in the late 1930s was that the archetypical Arian was as manly as Goebbels, as fit as Goering, and as blond as Hitler.
THat’s a good one NovaScout – made me laugh as I know who all 3 of those people are (were). Good deatils on history there Lucky Duck. Agree with your last paragraph.
If Demjanjuk had been able to learn a little Spanish would he have been able to gain Amnesty? for the price of a $5000 fine maybe?
I feel myself conflicted, suprisingly so.
He was freed from Israel on a technicality, not because he conviction did not stand, only because the sentence was commuted from death. The pain and horror this man must have caused is incomprehensible, of that I do not question. However, what do we gain as a society now, to put this pathetic excuse of a man on trial? Should he live out his remaining days in peace? If only I knew he would reflect on the pain and devastation he had reaped, then maybe I would be willing to grant him that opportunity to reflect.
I was a little conflicted too, but really, he has been fighting this for a long time. Would be one thing if they just found him out now that he is 89. So far have not seen him show any remorse, of course does not admit to being Ivan the Terrible. Really, the whole thing with him should have been resolved back in the 70’s. Unfortunately, as is the case here in the USA, case was thrown out on technicality in Israeli court system after his death penalty conviction.
Actually i guess what i said was not exactly right – death penalty was thrown out on technicality and he was released. Still technically convicted of all charges as far as Israeli court system is concerned. I still think he got off easy, and never really answered for the charges or showed any remorse. Unless it can be proven otherwise, I don’t care how old he is, he did not care about his 29,000 victims, that’s for sure.
Someone reminded me of recent KKK case, another old guy getting indicted for past KKK crimes. Are we to treat him the same? Let him go because he is old? Think this guy is in his 70’s, but forget details.
I can understand sympathy for an aging man haunted by an unspeakable past. But let’s remember that justice is not a concept that applies only to one person’s guilt or innocence. It is something that has meaning for everyone, and trials are not just to exact punishment or to decide one person’s guilt or innocence. Trials are to reaffirm that as human beings we are dedicated to the idea of justice. It’s not about the past so much as it is about the future.
And the word is not “deport,” M-H. I believe the word is “extradite.” As such I believe we will one day be extraditing former Vice President Cheney. Even though he is also aging and may or may not be haunted by an unspeakable past.
M-H, sorry. You got the word deport from the article. Teach me to write before reading. I suppose this man was just following orders, which is another mitigating circumstance. There were memos that said the concentration camps were legal. Another mitigating circumstance.
Memos that said the concentration camps were legal, big deal. Following orders? Pushing 29,000 people to their deaths? That is way way beyond “following orders”. One or two people you could argue that. Yet at the very same time you want to prosecute Dick Cheney. Funny stuff. Well not funny really.
GR – I think the case you are thinking of was a church bombing that happened in the 60’s and evidence finally showed who was responsible for it.
“Bobby Frank Cherry and Thomas Edwin Blanton, Jr. Blanton was convicted in 2001 and Cherry in 2002 by state juries of all four murders and both were sentenced to life in prison. Though Cherry publicly denied involvement, relatives and friends testified that he “bragged” about being part of the bombing, and his ex-wife testified, “He said he lit the fuse.”[6] Cherry died in prison in 2004. Blanton is currently incarcerated.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing#Investigation_and_prosecution
I will not equate Dick Cheney to Ivan the Terrible, there is no commonality whatsoever. But, the argument that one was just following orders, clearly, has it limitations. The men and the one woman, sitting in jail, right now, for abusing the prisoners at Abu Gharib claimed they were following orders. The CIA officers were just following orders, ejudicated by the executive office with the Attorney General complicit. Why are some being prosecuted and others are not? where does the responsibility lay? General Karpinski is wondering the same thing!
http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2717
Thanks You Wish, I think you are right that is who I was thinking of in regards to the KKK members.
Elena – you are right, to equate Cheney with Ivan the Terrible is not a credible statement. Indeed, as in the Abu Gharib case, it is hard to tell where the orders originated, or if people were following orders or just took it upon themselves to do smoe of the stuff. Seems to be a very hard matter to sort out, for the military especially. That is somewhat a very separate matter from Gitmo, however. Gitmo, the Justice Department got a reading that said waterboarding was OK. Whether it was or was not, one can debate, obviously. Anyway, I don’t think Dick Cheney belonged in this thread, that’s the main thing I was object to.
My point with the KKK members, they were old men (or at least older men) when they were proscecuted. Would anyone here have any sympathy for them? Probably not. How is that different than Nazi members.
And, I’ll bet the KKK members were “just following orders” too from higher ups in the organization. From their point view, no matter how twisted it is, they were doing what they were probably told to do, I’ll bet.
Actually, Demjanjuk was deported. According to Wiki,
That sort of rules out extradition.
I would cut no slack to the KKK guy. I am not positive about Demjanjek. Why do I feel do definite about Mr. KKK? I have known people like him him my life. Not necessarily killers but people with his thinking. It isn’t totally alien to me. I cannot accept what he did. He is a child killer.
I have never known anyone who was related in any way to the death camps of Nazi Germany. It simply escapes any realm of my understanding. It is just something I cannot wrap my head around.
Thus, the difference. And I do not think any neo-Nazi business is even close to the real McCoy. I don’t really think Mr. D deserves any slack either.
MH –
My grandfather fought in WWII and was at a concentration camp when it was liberated. The faces of the children he helped to liberate haunt him to this day, nearly 60 years later. The 4 girls at Selma was a tragedy, so is what happened at the concentration camps. Even though I will never be able to understand it, since, like you, I haven’t been directly affected by it, but seeing my 88 year old grandfather tear up telling me the story makes it just a little more real.
The activity in neo-Nazi groups is NO WHERE close to what happened. Unless those individuals rise to power and start to exterminate (for lack of a better word) those that they feel are inferior, it will NEVER be the same. To equate skinheads who drink beer and listen to punk rock and shout “White Power” to those in power during Nazi Germany who killed without second thoughts and attempted to purge an entire race is apples and oranges.
You Wish – very interesting about your grandfather in WWII and him helping liberate a concentration camp at end of WWII. Must have been a powerful moment in time for him.
Agreed, neo-Nazi’s, while vile and disgusting in their own rights, cannot be compared to Nazi’s at all – “apples and oranges” are a good way to put it as far as comparing those too. Neo-Nazi’s are “wannabe Nazi’s” if you ask me. While bad, they don’t hold a candle to the real thing.
I might have cut Mr. D. slack if he had just been found out at age 89. But as he has been fighting this since 1977, when he was much younger (and certainly wasn’t on death’s door then since that was 20 years ago), I don’t cut him any slack. Let him go face justice, get tried by a jury of his peers in Germany, and let justice run its course. To Germany’s credit, the entire country basically said after WWII, they would never tolerate such a thing again. Let them seek their justice for perhaps one of the last living Nazi’s that played a major role in killing people (29,000!).
Goodbye and good riddance.
@Moon-howler
MH and GR, you are right that neo-Nazis aren’t the same as “real” Nazis if for the simple fact if they started knocking people off here in the U.S. eventually someone would notice and hopefully put a stop to it.
That said, neo-Nazis have been known to commit hate crimes. They work through intimidation and spreading hatred. They work toward being the real thing. They are white supremacists. This is how the real Nazis started out. It’s frightening and not something most people want in their towns or in government.
As much as I respect the elderly, criminals are criminals, no matter how old. Mr. D. in particular is more than just a criminal. If I believed in the death penalty (which I cannot bring myself to do), I would say he should be one of the first in line.
I think in Nazi Germany, the real true Nazis were a very small portion of the population.
The crucial point is when the Nazis got their hands on the levers of power and dismantled the constitution of the Weimar Republic.
Most people in Germany, like here, just did as they were told. As long as those giving orders have a piece of tin called a badge, or a fancy, spit-polished title…
It’s a mistake to say the Germans went insane. They knew what they were doing. After all, it probably felt great to be German when the Reich gutted France, gobbled up Austria, and drove the Russians all the way to the gates of Moscow.
We’re not all that different. After all, we dropped nuclear weapons on 2 Japanese cities when we knew full well that the Japanese were finished. That’s mass murder isn’t it? Where is our sense of national reflection? Can we ever face the fact that we committed mass murder and got away with it? I think we call the Nazis monsters, as a way of maintaining denial about ourselves.
This guy could have been anyone’s father. Has anyone seen The Music Box with Jessica Lang? I thought it was a very good movie that explores this theme.
Mackie, most people who were alive at the time didn’t feel that dropping the atomic bomb was mass murder. I realize that political correctness has taken over on that topic however…have you discussed it with someone of that generation?
From what I have read, an unconditional surrender could not be obtained. Americans were told that the Japanese citizens would be directed to fight to the death until the last person stood in every village, town and city. It was predicted that a million American soldiers would lose their lives if they had to invade Japan.
You know, I have mixed feelings about Nagasaki and Hiroshima also. However, I have also considered the strong possibility that if the US had not done so, we would not be having this conversation. My father was stationed on the west coast waiting to ship out to Japan in summer of 1945.
The Japanese were completely surrounded and starving. They had no navy and no air force to speak of. We could bomb them at will. It was only a matter of time before they capitulated.
The hypothetical invasion of Japan was completely unnecessary and never would have happened. There was nothing for us to gain by an invasion of the Japanese mainland. However, this hypothetical invasion has intelligently been used as a foil to provide political cover for the nuclear annihilation of 2 Japanese cities.
The image of those mushrooms clouds rising into the sky cemented the USA as the world superpower at the time. No one on earth could challenge us while we were the only ones who had the bomb. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were obliterated for the political clout it could provide us in the post war years.
Apparently you have different history books than I do, Mackie. The only thing that completely surrounded Japan was water.
You know, I am not going to get into a pissing contest over this one. I have said I have mixed emotions about the subject. I seriously don’t think anyone would win the argument based on pity for the nation of Japan (thinking of Pearl Harbor and many nefarious deeds in the rest of Asia). Unleashing the nuclear age and the entire concept of nuclear warfare makes for a better argument against bombing Japan.
Americans probably will never agree on the use of an atomic weapon. I suggest talking to some of the people who lived during that time, while there are still some left to talk to. There is nothing like listening to the perceptions of those who actually lived during the times. Everything else is the hindsight of those who have only read about it.
MH – I think your interpretation of WWII history is correct, Japanese were not willing to surrender. Atomic bomb was extreme and unfortunate, but then again tell that to anyone who was Pearl Harbor victim. Remember, Japanese brought us into WWII with Pearl Harbor. Without it, who’s to say what would have happened, but USA was isolationist (not interested in getting too involved in WWII) before Pearl Harbor. I’ve been to Pearl Harbor memorial many times and highly recommend it to everyone if they are ever in the area (in Hawaii). Must thing to see for anyone who goes to Hawaii (Oahu island more specifically). I can never see it enough times actually. Also right next to it is USS Missouri where Japanese surrendered on the deck of it at end of WWII (month or so after Hiroshima and Nagasaki).
Personally, I think war with Japan would have continued to drag on for some time without bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. For how long, I cannot say obviously. Japanese were relentless where encountered in Pacific, and not sure how defeated they were prior to atomic bombing. I’m not that much of a WWII history expert, mainly know lots of Pearl Harbor history having been there many times, and actually having been on actual Pearl Harbor base (the part the public sees is really outside the base and in the harbor where the boats actually sank).
One last thing, highly recommend the movie “Tora Tora Tora” for good and what I think is highly accurate portrayal of events leading up to Pearl Harbor bombing. It was a jointly made Japanese-American movie – basically two parts filmed independently more or less, with Japanese part filmed with Japanese actors/director and in Japanese with English subtitles. Portrays what was going on with both sides in the events leading up to the attack, and of course portrays actual attack too. Excellent movie. Forget about the movie “Pearl Harbor” that came out a few years ago, typical Hollywood re-invention of what happened, not very accurate, particularly in showing events after Pearl Habor.
I think one important issue with Hiroshima and Nagasaki is not so much that Japan was dangerous (which they were, obviously), but that the bomb was aimed at an entire region, not just military targets.
It’s easier to drop a bomb than it is to look into the eyes of a woman, a child, an elderly person or a disabled person whom you intend to kill. That’s one reason it’s easier for the U.S. to justify wiping out Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I’m not interested in debating this, but tell that to the millions of innocent Chinese civilians the Japanese raped, murdered when they looked into their eyes, as well as thousands of innocents when they took over places like Wake Island, Phillipines, and lots more. The Japanese don’t have much of a leg to stand on in that regard. In particular they raided and looted China, tortured hundreds of thousands if not more of innocent Chinese, etc.
If memory serves me right – one part of Japan/China war in particular in 1937, roughly 250,000 or so Chinese were mass murdered by Japanese troops in the city of Nanjing, which I’m somewhat familiar with in my travels in China. Japan even today – many Japanese refuse to believe that massacre occurred. These were civilians, not military Chinese.
GR, I understand that.
What I am saying is don’t punish the innocent with the guilty.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. All it does is perpetuate more wrongs.
We’ll agree to disagree. The Japanese would have continued their agression in the Pacific if not for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The Japanese were totally finished in august of ’45.
The only thing they had left to do was say ‘uncle’ which they would have done given time. They were no threat to anyone.
You don’t deploy nuclear weapons against an enemy lying crumpled at your feet just to get them to say ‘uncle’.
You only deploy nuclear weapons when the life of your nation is at risk, and only as a last resort.
GR, we agree to disagree a lot, and I so completely respect that about you!
Assuming Mackie is historically accurate, I agree with him (her?)–except that using a nuclear weapon anywhere is self destructive…hence the end of the cold war when we finally figured out that the whole thing is massively counterproductive and stupid.
Mackie and Pinko-
Do me a favor – before either of you stick your feet in your mouth any further, go talk to some WWII vets who served in Japan. Listen to their stories of the atrocities the Japanese soldiers did to their own citizens and US soldiers. Get some real facts instead of painting Japan as some innocent country that the old US decided to bomb.
Japan was not lying crumpled on the floor or anywhere else. I am perfectly willing to debate the use of nuclear weapons against anyone, but to imply that Japan was somehow innocent simply ignores history.
I understand your feelings about civilians, Pinko. However, do you think firebombing is any nicer?
The further in time we get from dropping the bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the more morally ambiguous nuking a country becomes. Those folks of that era felt they would do anything to win that war and to bring ‘our boys’ home. They had little compassion or sympathy for anyone or anything Japanese. We also don’t feel the fear of invasion that those people felt. Recall the outrage of 9/11? Most Americans felt that same type of outrage following Dec. 7, 1941.
At what point do we start asking ourselves if dropping bombs on anyone is appropriate at human beings. Why is it worse to drop nuclear weapons on people rather than incendiaries or conventional bombs? How about daisy cutters? At what point do we determine dead is dead?
That is an excellent point – one of the major reasons WHY the US was drawn into WWII was because of the bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese.
As I said earlier, my grandfather served in WWII. Actually, both of my grandfathers served in the war. My one grandfather did a tour of duty in Japan (along with Germany, Africa and England). The one difference that he noted between the Japanese and the Italians and Germans was that the Italians and Germans followed the conventions of war – the Japanese didn’t. US camps were invaded in the middle of the night and soldiers taken and executed in front of their troops. He describes walking through Japan on marches and being hit by snipers – the Japanese would dig tunnels through the mountains and hills and use sniper fire to take out American troops.
I encourage everyone to go talk to vets about this – our WWII vets are passing away and their oral history is dying out. Before you shake your finger at a generation, talk with them about what was happening at that time.
True enough, the WWII vets are a dying breed unfortunately. First time I was in Pearl Harbor in March 1991 (just 7 months before the 50th anniversary), they had people there who actually were at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked. I talked to this one guy at length, as I had gotten there early in morning since heard there were long lines, and he was there where you would be at the front of the usual morning queue to get in. So had time to talk with him before it opened. He was real interesting to talk to, he worked at the hospital there and witnessed the whole thing first hand. Very interesting. Now when you go to Pearl Harbor as I’ve been there 6 times between 2004 and 2008 (have to somewhat frequently travel to military base on Oahu as part of my job), unfortunately don’t run into any of those types who were “volunteers” who helped out at the visitor center. By now of course they are even older, this gentleman was in his early 70’s back then. So now he would be in his late 80’s if still alive.
Anyway, true enough, we are losing the oral history of WWII, as told by people who served in the military during it, as they die off of old age, unfortunately.
Actually meant to say first time at Pearl Harbor was in March 1991 – 9 months before 50th anniversary. In fact at that time, they were painting the memorial so were not running boats out to it, so did not get to see it except from a distance, during my first trip to Hawaii which was for vacation. Fortunately, years later when I started traveling there because of work, have gotten to go out on boat to memorial and actually see it. Anyone who’s been there will tell you believe it or not, droplets of oil still coming up from sunken ship below – which is “tomb” for thousands of dead Navy men. Hard to believe oil is still bubbling to surface after more than 65 years, but it is! Out there, they refer to those oil droplets as tears of sorrow.