Within the past 24 hours horrific violence has been committed in both Kansas and in Arkansas. Yesterday, Dr. George Tiller, an abortion provider, was gunned down in his church while his wife sang in the choir. This was not his first brush with violence. In 1993 Dr. Tiller was shot in both arms.
This morning one army recruiter was killed and another seriously wounded. The reason is not yet known. Information is sketchy.
Regardless of how one feels about the military, war, abortion or any other issue that somehow lands in the political arena, there is NO excuse or reason for violence. None whatsoever. Reading some of the blogs and newspaper reader comments sickens me. Some people are justifying the violence. They fail to see how their rhetoric can lead to unspeakable, horrifying actions.
Going into an army recruiting office or a church to harrass, wound or kill makes those who do so no better than the killers of Daniel Pearl. There can be no equivocation.
Moon-Howler
You are right that there is NO excuse for violence. Have you read or heard what exactly happens during a late-term abortion? It’s really nasty violent!! I’m pretty neutral on the abortion issue (mainly because I don’t feel it’s my business, not having a uterus and all), but those late-term jobs are pretty rough.
And….have y’all noticed that the crazies are showing up in churches in inordinate numbers these days??? What’s up with that!!
Perhaps in the future, we can agree that Homeland Security should be allowed to protects us from ALL killers and ALL terrorists, even if some would agree with the political aim of their terror? Just a thought. But a murder is a murder, even if you are pro “life”. DHS should never apologize for protecting us from terror.
On the flip side, there are extremist commentators who have created the climate where such an act of terror, in a church, could be sanctioned by a certain echo chamber within American society.
What I find disturbing is that in much of today’s commentary, Christians and pro-lifers in general are being blamed for the actions of one lunatic gunman. That sort of blame is no more logical than blaming all Muslims for the violence of September 11.
I in no way feel that this sort of vigilante justice is in any way acceptable. That is not the kind of society I want to live in. But I have to agree with Slow that late-term abortion is an horrific act. There are some who are hailing Dr. Tiller as some kind of heroic pioneer. How heroic do you have to be to perform the same simple procedure over and over, and to take women’s money to do it? How is it possible for so many to believe that killing a fully viable baby with all of its parts is no different than taking a morning-after pill?
This actually reminds me of when Muslim Americans ask not to be thrown into the same boat with Muslim extremists who commit terrorist acts. This is a fair request. If anyone is saying that about anti-choice people, then this is wrong. The only fingerpointing I have seen is talking about “news” outlets that over the years have called for acts of terrorism such as this. How do we protect Americans who are targeted by these “news” shows and their commentators?
There were a half dozen acts of terrorism against abortion providers during the Clinton years. And here we go again.
It doesn’t help the pro-life cause in any way, to be sure, even though the numbers of these occurrences are small and are perpetrated by individuals. I don’t personally know anyone in the pro-life movement who would advocate violence, but rather engage in peaceful protest and advocacy to help mothers in need. You won’t hear about those people anytime soon after this incident.
Shellyb, you are right.
I find it odd that no one spoke to the issue of someone killing a recruiter in the army recruiting office and wounding another.
Obviously, the closer to term one gets the more repugnant abortion becomes. However, one quote I remember reading from Dr. Tiller had to do with pre-natal testing. He was quoted as saying “Prenatal testing without prenatal choices is medical fraud.”
This discussion really should not be about how we feel about abortion, or late term abortion, or abortion because of fetal anomoly, or mother’s health. Americans disagree over this issue. I did not realize that America felt we could justify murdering someone in his house of worship.
Emma, you and I must have been watching the opposite shows. I watched Fox which enraged me (for equivocating), CNN and read the comments under the 3 major DC papers. I do think extreme rhetoric can off the crazies, whether we are calling soldiers or doctors ‘baby killers.’
Emma, apparently you have never met Randall Terry. Now there is a non-Christian in Christian clothes for you. His statement after Dr. Tiller was killed would outrage most anyone.
Slowpoke, you bring up an interesting point. Why do all the crazies flock to churches when they want to kill? What ever happened to the word ‘sanctuary?’
Randall Terry bears no resemblance to anyone I know who is a pro-life activist.
M-H, I am greatly disturbed by both the murders that happened today. I think that both should be treated the same. I am disappointed that news coverage of the assassination of Dr. Tiller has been more sensationalized, and has been more focused on what the victim has done to “deserve” the three violent attacks has suffered, two of which he survived. I don’t know if this is because this is what some pro-life spokesperson has been saying, but such comments appear on this thread as well, which is an indication that many people see justification in this act of domestic terrorism. I do not.
When an act terrorism is committed, it is no longer relevant whether we can sympathize with the motive. We shouldn’t be talking like that, certainly not the day after the murder. It gives the terrorist what they wanted, a platform for his ideas. After 9/11, no one wanted to hear about why the Muslim world resents America, Palestine, American forces in Saudi Arabia, etc. I think we all can understand why. Can’t we?
Why then are we talking about what may have motivated or justified this act?
There are millions of women who have doctors appointments tomorrow who are now afraid to seek the health care they need. Doctors, nurses, and office workers are afraid to go to work. This is terrorism and it should not be a platform for discussion of the abortion issue. There are other occasions for such discussions.
I agree it is terrorism whether the victims are doctors or soldiers.
Strange how DHS Secretary Napolitano’s warning is coming to pass, I am very sad to say.
Witness, you are right, the killing of the soldier and wounding of another got more or less swept under the rug because of so much jawing about what might have motivated a killer, which to me is equivocation and totally unacceptable. I still don’t even know what happened at that recruiting station because of all the Tiller speculation.
Emma, I have heard a more than a few things just today that I find unacceptable. (things like well someone finally killed Tiller the Killer) I will admit though that none are as disgusting as what Randall Terry said.
I am not sure that pro choice and pro life people will ever find common ground or even understand one another.
NY Times
Both privates were from Arkansas. How sad. These guys just went to work…that’s all.
This behavior is also completely unacceptable. There is no excuse. NO equivocation. I don’t care how anyone feels about the war. Violence towards others is simply NOT a viable option.
I condemn both acts of terrorism without consideration for my position on abortion or the invasion of Iraq. I hope this is enough to cause those who are working to foster such an acrimonious political climate to reconsider their tactics, if not their motives.
Was someone on this thread attempting to justifyDr. Tiller’s murder? I didn’t pick up on that.
I do object to Tiller being characterized as some kind of hero in some forums, however.
I saw no one attempting to justify killing Dr. Tiller on this blog. However I saw lots of it as I traveled the blogosphere.
My position is that both are acts of terrorism. I don’t believe the blog takes a position, however.
There are people who see Tiller as a hero because he did what he believed was right despite repeated threats to his family and himself. It all depends on one’s point of view. There will be people who see the 2 soldiers cut down in the prime of life as heroes because they were killed in the line of duty.
I have heard testimony from women who underwent this procedure, they were heartbroken, they had WANTED their children and then they were faced with incomprehensible news about the lives of their unborn babies.
I urge EVERYONE, please read this letter by a mom, faced with such a horrible “choice”. It brought me to tears.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/01/25/my_late_term_abortion/
@Elena
Thank you for sharing that – it is horrible choice to have to make, but she looked at the quality of life her child would have had versus terminating the pregnancy. I would never, ever want to be in her shoes and have to make that choice.
I, also, know that a majority of late term abortions aren’t because the parents changed their minds, but because something went wrong with the pregnancy and the baby’s health or their health was in grave risk.
“walk a mile in my shoes” isn’t that the old saying You Wish. This song by Everlast says it all, one of my favorites of all time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vWhdz5svvQ
That is one of many stories. Thank you Elena for posting it.
Abortion is expensive, painful, and horribly sad. Most people having abortions post first trimester have some serious health issues or health issues with the fetus.
Women of means will always be able to get this type of abortion if needed, regardless of what laws are passed. Women with means or a large credit card will just leave the country. Sadly, those with limited means will be at the mercy of the good ole boys and the tent revival crew mentioned in the story the Elena linked to.
Google Miss Sherri of Romper Room. I made up my mind on this issue when I was a child. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherri_Finkbine
How do you decide which lives are worthy and which are not? Are only “perfect” babies worthy of life? I have friends who have a daughter with severe cerebral palsy who brings great joy to their lives. I also know a couple of people who have loving, adorable children with Downs syndrome. Anohter wonderful child I know has a severe developmental disorder and is mentally aged 3 while physically almost 18.
I realize our differences here are probably irreconcilable on this issue, but unless a child is to be born with deformities that are completely incompatible with life, how can we know their life-worthiness? Just a thought that haunts me sometimes.
It would seem to me that the person who owns the problem makes the decision, rather than politicians and people who are strangers.
And I think you ask a thought provoking question, Emma. I ask myself the same question. But fortunately, I never had to face that question in reality, only as an abstraction. I did have a very close friend who did go through at least part of it. Not fun.
The person who has the problematic pregnancy should always be the one who makes the decision in the long run.
Both the killings Sunday and Monday were influenced by both politics and religion.
Emma,
I think what Dr. Tiller said was simple logic. As long as we have prenatal testing, we should have options. That doesn’t mean you or I would make that choice, I did not have prenatal testing, other than an ultrasound, with either of my pregnancies. However, it is not my place to judge why some people decide to bring a child to term that has severe disabilites and why others do not.
There is no guarantee in life, people have healthy children all the time and yet suddenly, either by accident or illness, they are confronted with children who may no longer be “perfect”. There but for the grace of G-d go I and I am unwilling to judge other people.
It’s not about judging other people, it’s about caring for the lives lost. “Dr.” Tiller profited in what can very often be a very cynical exploitation of women for political purposes (on both sides), and not so much out of caring for the woman herself. Ironically, that often becomes the province of pro-life people. For example, Project Rachel reaches out to women who feel remorse after abortion. No judgment there, just help. Wonder how Dr. Tiller responded to women who had remorse after the fact?
How can you say that about Dr. Tiller, Emma? Did you know him? Do you know anything about him? Why he started practicing medicine in Witchita or why he became an abortion provider?
You are judging other people. I do not feel Dr. Tiller was involved in a very cynical exploitation of women at all. No one held a gun to someone’s head and forced them to have an abortion. Do I know abortion providers whose motives I question? Yes I do. Dr. Tiller is not one of them.
And I don’t care if he was the biggest ass in the world, that did not give some religious zealot the right to gun him down, in a house of worship. Pardon my anger. Why are we having this discussion? It seems that Mr. Roeder is allowed to become judge, jury and executioner.
Thank you Moon-Howler, I could not have said it better. I wonder Emma, did you actually READ the letter I posted from a woman faced with such a heart wrenching choice?
Yes, indeed, I read it, and I remember reading it a few years ago. Again, I simply can’t just dismiss the young lives that are eliminated by this brutal procedure, especially those that are killed so close to term as fully sentient human beings. And, again, MH, I in no way think the gunman had any right to do what he did. I stated that from the outset.
The only common ground to be found here is support for prevention of unwanted pregnancy in the first place, and perhaps genetic counseling/evaluation prior to even attempting pregnancy. Otherwise I guess we just agree to disagree here.
We agree that no one has the right to kill doctors or soldiers. I expect we agree on more than that, it just takes a while to discover what we do agree on.
I certainly agree about the prevention of unwanted pregnancy. I wonder if we would agree on method though?
What I suspect we disagree on, to the point of no common ground, is what should be a matter of policy in the United States. What I think is personally appropriate for me and mine might be very different than what is a matter of policy.
Probably one of my biggest issues, especially listening to rhetoric on all sides, is the idea of forcing women to become mothers. I don’t want those not ready for parenthood to become parents. I have seen the down side of that one and it isn’t pretty.
We are a technologically advanced society. We ought to be able to do better than this.
(not US here on this blog, I think we have discussed a very contentious subject very respectfully with each other)
Hi Moon, you said “Strange how DHS Secretary Napolitano’s warning is coming to pass, I am very sad to say.”
I find this somewhat odd considering loons have been doing this since the 80’s. But now the DHS report that came out earlier this year is “coming to pass”?
Also, did the DHS report contain any warnings about Muslim extremist targeting military personnel?
ShellyB, I think you have been watching a little too much government funded ‘news’: “The only finger pointing I have seen is talking about “news” outlets that over the years have called for acts of terrorism such as this. How do we protect Americans who are targeted by these “news” shows and their commentators?”
Can you please provide an example of a ‘news’ show calling for acts of terrorism such as this.
By your own logic if some crazy nutjob attacked certain members of our BOCS or Greg would this site be guilty of “calling for acts of terrorism”?
I don’t think anyone has called for something bad to happen to any of those local people. If that were to appear, it would be taken down by the administrators immediately. I am actually not so sure I think that question is even appropriate. You can disagree with someone without wanting harm to come to them.
As for Janet Napolitano getting criticized for DHS releases, I do know that anti abortion groups were mentioned as were military groups. Did some nut case not open fire on 5 soldiers in Iraq? I am sorry to see these things happen. I don’t think the groups alert was out of line. I would have added some to it.
I don’t know if muslim extremists were mentioned. I thought that distinction was always on the ‘watch out for list.’ If it isn’t, obviously, it should be.
which is why I’m asking for an example from ShellyB of a ‘news’ show asking for something bad to happen to Dr. Tiller. I have never seen it, just people disagreeing with what he did for a living without wanting harm to come to him. Now for some reason those people who disagreed with him “called for acts of terrorism”?
First of all anti abortion nutjobs such as the guy that did this have been doing this since the 80’s. How is it now all of the sudden a shock to people that someone did this, also, which abortion groups were mentioned? None, not a single group was specified in the DHS report from what I can remember. Just anyone who disagrees with any Obama administration policy, and our military vets. Why do you think there was all of the backpedaling and apologizing from Janet?
When it comes to the military groups (of which no groups are ever named) the example you gave was a fragging incident. Something that happens and has happened in every war we have ever been in. It was even in the U.S., it was in Iraq, it has nothing to do with the DHS.
sorry, it wasn’t even in the U.S.
However, I can’t remember a single instance in the DHS report warning of home grown Muslim extremist like that one that shot two (and killed one) Army recruiter. Why not? Why just anyone U.S. citizen against Obama administration policy? So if someone were to harm an illegal immigrant DHS Secretary Napolitano’s warning is coming to pass?
On average a person a day is kidnapped, tortured and/or killed in Phoenix alone. Almost every one of them an illegal immigrant, does that make DHS Secretary Napolitano some sort of Nostradamus? She is an idiot yes man for this administration. I’m surprised that Sonia was nominated to the supreme court instead of DHS Secretary Napolitano.
Hello, I think you are personalizing this too much.
First, I don’t know if home grown jihaddists have been mentioned or not. If not, they should be. I understand that prisons are a real breeding gound for this type of thinking. But that doesn’t make Napolitano an ‘idiot.’ That report was not her personal doing. I wouldn’t expect you to like her. As I recall, you were very much for McCain.
As for anyone being surprised about the shooting of Dr. Tiller. No, I am not surprised. I am shocked and disgusted. While 99% of those who describe themselves as ‘pro-life’ are probably just as shocked and disgusted as I am, there is always the potential of some nut job hiding amongst the sheep. I can think of a few I have met who I expect to see in the news some day.
Are you kidding me Moon!?! “But that doesn’t make Napolitano an ‘idiot.’ That report was not her personal doing.”
You were the one that said “Strange how DHS Secretary Napolitano’s warning is coming to pass, I am very sad to say. ”
So it was “Napolitano’s warning” that came to pass but the “report was not her doing”. Just a little confused here, which one is it?
Voting for McCain has nothing to do with not liking someone who denies Mexican drug cartel violence hasn’t spilled over to the U.S. while a person a day is kidnapped, tortured and/or killed in the state she is the governor of. She is a clueless yes man who has no idea what she is doing or saying, unless she is told what to say.
I’m shocked and disgusted by it as well Moon but to say that “DHS Secretary Napolitano’s warning is coming to pass” is odd since this has been going on for 20 or so years already. Even though according to DHS Secretary Napalitano had nothing to do with the report.
Emma:
The kinds of abortions Tiller did were on fetuses that were NOT sentient or Viable. Anencephaly comes to mind whereby the fetus fails to develop a brain… Then there’s cases of such horrific genetic abnormalities and physical deformaties (heart on outside of body for instance) that life outside the womb will not be possible. Perhaps you should stop reading the so called “pro-life” sites that disregard these facts and deal with reality. Tiller IS a hero because he helped these women out of horrific situations whereby delivering a dead baby would be even worse for them. He is a hero because he went to work every day to help these women, despite such “pro-life” people gunning for him at every chance. I never needed his help, but there are many women who did – and in tehir eyes he IS a hero. And frankly, they’re the only ones to really affirm this.
It is sickening of anti-choicers to think that women in their 7th, 8th or 9th months run into a clinic to get that abortion they always meant to, but never seemed to find time for. It says a lot about how much the anti-choice factions think of women and their desperate situations. YOu don’t walk in anyone else’s shoes except your own, and while you may choose to bring a deformed child into this world, doesn’t mean others have to. As a mother of a special-needs child, I wouldn’t have anyone forced to undergo the challenges and setbacks we have had to endure. Yes, we love our child, but I would in no way expect another to travel our path because people like YOU think it is merely a life of “inconvenience and imperfection” that would guide a decision to abort. You have no idea, and your ignorance shows. Let each and every individual woman choose for herself. For if they had no choice, where would the “pro-life” people be? Certainly not helping those in need – as is glaringly obvious when there are so many disabled children on the adoption rosters without parents.
So much for respectful dialogue over a contentious issue. My information sources are generally medical journals, not “prolife sites, whatever those are. I don’t recall using the word “ignorance” with those who disagreed with me on this thread, but I guess that is just another way in which we differ, Bubba.
Have a pleasant day.
Remember this gem courtesy of the brilliant Ms. Napolitano? http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/story.html?id=1520295
this just in… hello has released his official report! Here are some bullet points to go by:
– watch out for dogs, there is evidence that they may bite someone.
– be on the lookout for babies, they may eat, poop and burp.
– cats are now on the watch list, there is a chance they may sleep all day long and poop outside the litter box.
– there is very strong evidence that some time in the near future clouds will appear above the U.S. and release H2O.
There you have it, now lets see if anything in my report ‘comes to pass’. 🙂
Hello, you know, I try to keep this blog moving by commenting to people who contribute. I misspoke. I should have said, the warning that came to pass in the report from homeland security that so many people were upset with Janet Napolitano over. Sorry about that. I don’t always have as much time as I would like to put the time and thought needed into my responses. I probably won’t get my next pay raise because of that neglect also so bear with me.
No, I am not confused. Just rushed. Want a job here?
No me, Bubba, in fairness to Emma, she has not been stident or shrill over this subject. I thought we were doing pretty well for people who obviously disagree on a subject.
Emma, I understand where NMB is coming from about pro life sites. There is a great deal of misinformation out there put out by people who want to inform but probably haven’t chosen the best or most correct way. I just wouldn’t say you have chosen to do that.
I’m always puzzled by the anti-choice movement’s acceptance of Randall Terry’s leadership. Where’s his dog (err…male member) in this fight? Is there no woman to lead this very personal battle? Is this another “keep the little woman home – barefoot and pregnant” conservative belief? Too much of the present day wingnut conservative movement is wrapped up in hate – whether of immigrants, gays, women, or “the elite”. The hate is savored like a good wine – its scent relished, its nuances(ha!) appreciated, its qualities shared with the like-minded or curious. Then when over-indulged, it’s like a drunk out of control – belligerent, volatile, and itching for a fight… and always right. Dr. Tiller happened to be handy and in the way.
Emma:
What “medical journals” would you be speaking of that state viable, healthy fetuses are being aborted in late pregnancy. I would love to know. For the only sources claming THAT are…well…ANTI-Choice sites/organizations.
And if I sound harsh or bitter, perhaps it is because I lived in Amherst, NY where Barnett Slepian was assasinated 10 years ago in his kitchen by…a “pro-life” activist…emboldened by such organizations as Randall Terry’s, Priests for Life, Life Action League, etc. Their rhetoric is less than peaceful. I watched as the “pro-life” community in Buffalo delayed denouncing the killing, and then when they did it was with a BIG BUT…”we’re sorry that Dr. Slepian has lost his life, but he did do abortions…” It was people in BUffalo and further South who sheltered and shuttled Kopp to the Carolinas…”pro-life” people. It takes a network to hide and protect a criminal, and from what I have seen, looks like there are a lot of bloodthirsty “pro-lifers” You may not be one of them, but your movement leads a lot to be desired. In addition to the small tidbit that ALL pro-life organizations are against contraception (except teh rhythm method). I’m sure you have heard about the “The Pill Kills” protests on June 6th whereby “pro-life” activists stand outside clinics wearing shirts that denounce the pill and other forms of contraception.
Fact is, if you cannot trust women with a choice, how then can you trust them with a child?
It’s not “my movement.” It’s simply my opinion. And, for the nth time, I don’t think Tiller’s killing was in any way justified. How could I possibly make that clearer?
I simply choose to think also of the developing life inside the mother and to express concern and compassion for that life. I simply cannot equate a 28-week abortion to taking a morning-after pill, when so many babies are able to survive at that point.
Not a judgment against the mother. Not a stance against birth control (I thought I was clear about that, too). Just a little consideration for the fact that one of the parties involved doesn’t get a voice.
I guess it’s easier to focus your rage on anyone whom you describe as “anti-choice.” Sorry, but I just don’t see that I fit so neatly into your little “anti-choice” box. You don’t know me, you don’t know anything about my life except for what I may have said on these pages. I’m pretty sure that you don’t go around assuming that all Hispanics are illegal aliens now, do you?
We disagree. You call that “ignorance.” I call it…….whatever.
Not me, Bubba, I agree with much of what you have said. I just do not direct it towards Emma. I think she is an innocent bystander on this one. (And Emma and I both know each of us would come out swinging if need be.)
I personalize some of these incidents also. My uncle was a friend of Dr. Baird Britton who was gunned down by zealot Paul Hill, who has since been executed for his crimes. Uncle Bill and Baird rode across the United States on a motorcycle sometime either right before WWII. When Dr. Britton was gunned down, my uncle was suffering from a stroke in the hospital. I do not know if he realized what had happened to his boyhood friend.
I thought it was just senseless killing. Dr. Gunn, Dr. Slepian, who else? I believe there have been 4.
I just looked at the wikipedia citings of violence directed at clinics and abortion providers. This is just nuts!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#Murders
That Bingingham area is a real hotbed of political movement, isn’t it? Is it the drinking water?
Moon, I was just amazed that you would say this despicable act of murder by some lunatic was “DHS Secretary Napolitano’s warning is coming to pass” and somehow giving credit and legitimacy to such a wide ranging and generalized partisan piece of $hit. The DHS report in question has already been apologized for and the excuses made. DHS secretary Janet is a joke, with this report you could say blank “now comes to pass” for just about anything because it so far reaching and doesn’t specify a single group.
Like my official report, tonight three of the ‘warnings’ came to pass:
– my 5 week old son ate, pooped and burped.
– wouldn’t you know it but my G.D. cat pooped outside the litter box.
– and it is raining outside.
See, I can be DHS secretary too if that’s all it takes. Just make general accusations about something that has been going on for 20 or so years and your in!
Quick unrelated question Moon, just wondering why my comments on the Eli Manning clip are in moderation?
I have no idea why your comment is in moderation. Did it have links attached? That is usually what does it.
I don’t think Janet Napolitano is joke. When the warning came out for those in charge of security to be mindful of certain right wing enclaves, it was nothing new. It listed the same groups who have been known in the past to attract unstable zealots. I am sad to say, some of that warning has already surfaced. I say it without apology. I don’t remember if muslim jihaddists were on the list or not. If not, I hope they will be added also. An extremist is an extremist. I don’t much care about their ideology or what is motivating it.