Many people have indicated they have something to say about the state of the world. Too much is happening in the world for me to keep up with it. Here is everyone’s opportunity to discuss whatever. Enjoy.
76 Thoughts to “Open Thread, as promised”
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All contents copyright Moonhowlings.net
Blogroll
- 9500Liberty
- Bacons' Rebellion Blogspot
- Bearing Drift
- Blue Virginia
- Citizen Tom
- Counts of Monte Cristo. The
- Derecho, The
- Dixie Pig, The
- My Side of the Fence
- My Star Journey
- NARAL Pro-Choice VA Blog
- New Dominion Project
- Nova Common Sense
- NovaTownHall Blog
- One Libertarians's Point of View by Al Alborn
- Pete Candland's Blog
- Potomac Local
- Prince William Muckraker
- PW Conservation Alliance
- PWC Moms
- PWCPolitics.com
- PWCPolitics.com
- Red NoVA
- Shad Plank, The
- She the People
- State of NoVA, the
- The Jeffersoniad
- Townhall
- VEA Daily Reports
- VivianPaige
- WDGolden.com
- You, Me and the Lamp Post
Moon-howler, the drafting of NAFTA WAS bipartisan. But Clinton pushed hard for NAFTA, signed it, and he owns it. NAFTA was a huge bone of contention in early 2008 between candidates Obama and Clinton. Ironically, candidate Obama said about NAFTA that any attempt to repeal it “would actually result in more job loss … than job gains.”
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=4336481
Obama himself tagged a fellow Democrat with NAFTA. And it was politically expedient for Obama to make that statement to try to embarrass Hillary Clinton. Now history is repeating itself. Watch the jobs dry up.
From the horse’s (Obama’s) mouth:
And at the time Clinton took pride in the fact he was trying to advance what Bush I had done. I would prefer to go on what I actually remember has having happened rather than what the politicians are reinventing.
I was opposed to NAFTA when Bush was pushing it and was disappointed that Clinton didn’t kill it off. I don’t even remember why I was opposed to it.
The bottom line is, both parties pushed it in one form or another. I don’t care what Obama or Hillary say about something that happened 15+ years ago.
Cap and Trade sounds good on paper. It might be first cousins to No Child Left Behind. No one wants to leave children behind but it is horribly flawed legislation that has cost school systems fortunes and burned out many a teacher and many a child.
FYI – John Foster Dillon, in an 1873 Opinion of the Iowa Supreme
Court, issued a judicial rule used by Virginia Courts to
construe strictly any ambiguities in enabling authority
against local governments.
Dillon Rule – (Virginia)Localities may do only those things which are
expressly authorized are necessarily implied in an affirmative
or specific grant of power by the Virginia General Assembly.
Home Rule -(Majority of States)Localities may do all things
which they are not forbidden to do by state governing body
or the law.
In presenting his ruling Justice Dillon noted “Those best
fitted by their intelligence, business capacity and moral
character usually do not hold local office and that the
conduct of local affairs are generally unwise and extrvagant”.
Nice guy.
Perhaps Justice Dillon had special vision that looked into the future and saw who was sitting on the Board of Supervisors in Prince William County.
Clinton was an active proponent for NAFTA, and he signed the bill with the backing of a majority of Democrats. It sticks to him–and them– along with the tremendous number of job losses that followed. So what if the US budget was in surplus when he left office–our national security and military staffing had been decimated, terrorists attacks went largely unchallenged, and job losses due to NAFTA continue today. What a hero.
I’m not sure how good cap and trade sounds on over 1,200 sheets of paper plus another 300 pages of amendments that no one had time to read before it was rushed to a vote last night. That seems to be the new M.O. of the Democrats–ramrod legislation in constant “crisis” mode. 300 pages worth of bribes to buy votes for this monstrosity.
Just out of curiosity, how active can you be when you aren’t in office?
I keep hearing that our military was decimated…but that’s all I hear…words. No proof. It sure seems like it got back up to snuff to go to war on 2 fronts in rapid order.
I think Clinton overall was a good president. You obviously don’t. I got real sick of the anti Clinton people back when he was president and my position hasn’t changed. I tried to make sure I didn’t sit around and do the same thing about Bush…out loud at least.
NAFTA actually started under Reagan. Bush carried it through and handed it off to Clinton. It only sticks to Clinton in the minds of those who want yet another thing to bitch about Clinton about and who don’t know much about the history of the trade agreement.
Story of Metro driver’s funeral brought tears to my eyes.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/26/dc.train.driver/index.html
Indeed, that might be an apt analogy about unintended consequences of no child left behind and this cap and trade legislation. Although, I don’t know that no child left behind had so many pages of stuff tacked on at the last minute. Will be interesting to see what the Senate does with the thing.
And of course, while MH hasn’t taken shots at Bush on this blog, I can’t count the number of times other posters have done so since leaving office. Not that I’m defending him, I’m just saying.
Clinton removed nearly half a million employees from the federal payroll, 90 percent of which were military personnel, and cut over $12 billion from the defense budget. Bush was well into his second term by the time the military and intelligence forces were built up again. So anyone who cries about why the intelligence services didn’t see 9/11 coming need only to look at how few were available to keep watch in the first place. And all of those who whine about Bush’s war on terror might want to recall that Clinton had no problem misusing troops by sending them to hell-hole lost causes like Somalia.
Yeah…I bet that’s it…
Somehow my quote of Slowpoke’s post didn’t work right – I meant for my sentence to go underneath his, which is how I did it, I have no idea how it inserted itself above his inside the quote. Oh well.
And which president sent troops into Somalia? Hmmmmm….could it be George Herbert Walker Bush? Clinton inherited that one too, for better or worse.
Emma, I have never seen those stats before. From what government source did you get them?
I don’t think we need to blame anyone for 9-11 other than those who planned and executed it. To do otherwise is simply counterproductive and purely conjecture.
Getting back to cap and trade legislation – the Wall Street Journal had an interesting article on it in Thursday’s edition. The it will cost the Congressional Budget Office claims it will cost the average household only $175 a year by 2020. However, the method of analysis they used was very conservative, and included many assumptions that stand almost no chance of holding up over time.
More interestingly, the Democrats did not allow 3 amendments that House Republicans were pushing:
1. Suspend the program if gas hits $5/gallon.
2. Suspend the program if electricity costs rise 10% over 2009’s cost.
3. Suspend the program if unemployment hits 15%.
It begs to ask the question: why did they not allow these provisions?
Finally, the article says there is no better way to see the effects than to look at what has happened in England where similar laws have been put into effect. Britain’s Taxpayer Alliance estimates the average family there is paying nearly $1300 a year in green taxes for carbon-cutting programs that have only been in place a few years.
And when the Bush administration (of whom I am no fan, believe me) is criticized over the inability to locate weapons of mass destruction, the critics may wish to look to Clinton’s warning to Congress in his State of the Union address in 1998:
Can you imagine he actually had the nerve to use the word “terrorists,” being a good Democrat and all? And all this time we thought Cheney and Rumsfeld were making all this up.
Emma, you seem to be delving into the politics of criticism. Rather than pick pick pick at everything Democrats do, why not point out some positive things your Republicans have done?
You appear to want to just go through like Sherman’s march to the sea and bash anything to see that is Democratic, starting with Bill Clinton. How about telling us why Cap and Trade is so bad. Gainesville has gotten us off on the right foot. I am actually not real interested in re-hashing ancient partisan politics.
Gainesville, those provisions should have been allowed to go through. I am all in favor of safety nets. Thanks for bringing in some info on that bill, especially from a more neutral source.
Poor Richard,
What would it take to get rid of the Dillon Law in Virginia? I thought most Virginians were opposed to government thinking they knew better than individuals?
Indeed, in terms of safety nets – one hopes they would never actually come into use, that is that the triggers for them would never happen. Obviously, if we get to $5/gallon gas, or 15% unemployment (!!) we’re going to be in a world of hurt. One would think that would be a no-brainer to put those things in the bill – thinking that HOPEFULLY they won’t ever come to pass. Although $5/gallon gas I suspect is going to happen sooner or later – since we hit $4 last summer I don’t think it is hard to believe in a few years in the summer $5/gallon is not unlikely. 15% unemployment – let’s hope that never ever happens.
M-H, there is little support in the GA to change Virginia from a
Dillon Rule to a Home Rule state because it would take power
from the GA members. (Always seemed odd that Virginia, with
a long history of advocating for State’s Rights, refuses
to allow its on local jurisdictions the same governing rights
as the vast majority of other communities across America).
One of the great negatives is that “lobby rats” can push through
legislation in Richmond, that counters the actions of
local governments. The slum lords couldn’t stop the Manassas City
Council from enacting a strong rental inspection program, but
they were able to have it greatly weakened in Richmond with the help
of rural legislators with no dog in the fight, but campaign
contribution “needs”.
Sure!…….the Dems can go first!!
All of what you are saying is just sort of amazing and Un-Virginian. Perhaps that needs to start being a condition for election to the house of Delegates.
Speaking of the City of Manassas–I see that Mr. Letiecq is now singing the praises of those who clean up grafitti, etc in the Wellington area. I sure wish that same group would go works some magic in Point of Woods.
Slow, I am not the one picking at everything. (well other than Point of Woods)Also, I don’t consider myself a democrat, although I generally vote that way…operative word, generally.
Moon-howler, I clearly articulated my major concern about cap-and-trade in the other thread. The loss of jobs will happen very quickly in coal-dependent industries. I compared the job losses to those resulting from Clinton’s NAFTA, and you rushed in to reflexively defend Clinton rather than the possibility of more job and production losses during a recession and record unemployment.
I’m with Slowpoke–I’ll start dishing out praise for Democrats when I start hearing them do the same for Republicans. And especially when the current President stops running against Bush and starts owning his own decisions–and the fallout that may come from them.
Would point out that the quick action and arrest of two suspects
in Wellington came from alert citizens quickly phoning the MCPD
with information. Each of us must do our part to fight crime.
Emma, I didn’t defend Clinton. I said that NAFTA started out under Reagan and was an agreement between the three countries under Bush I. That isn’t defending Clinton but striving for accuracy. Clinton did sign it into law. It appeared to me to be a bi-partisan effort. You obviously want to argue. Afraid it is going to be a solo go round over there because it isn’t a discussion any more. Poke away.
I never asked you to praise the Democrats. I said to tell us something positive that you feel Republicans have done.
You are too smart not to play well with others.
Poor Richard, and that is where most arrests come from–citizens who are alert and aware of their surroundings. Keeping that watchful eye out. I am glad those kids were caught.
Point of Woods is an easy target to pick on! The graffiti there (when I lived there) never gets cleaned up – I called the city about it a number of times. One time it was on the side of one townhouse – an end unit, and was that way for a month. I even contacted the useless HOA about it. It’s great they cleaned up Wellington though, maybe it’s a sign the city is taking it more seriously. I didn’t know about the Wellington incident. I’m glad they apparently caught the perpretators though. About time that some of these people get caught. Yes, bvbl should hang out in Point of Woods if they want to do some good – while I haven’t been there since January, I imagine there’s plenty of graffiti, garbage, etc. that needs cleaning up – unless things have magically changed somehow – which I highly doubt. I’ve heard reports actually that it hasn’t changed, since the last time I checked on my townhouse right before my tenant moved in.
I guess I misunderstood the meaning of “open thread,” Moon-howler. By “play well with others,” do you mean the false high dander people are using to harass Second Alamo on another thread here? They know darned well what he is talking about, but are just choosing to pick, pick, pick.
And Emma, what have *I* said to Second Alamo? Perhaps I misunderstood my own words. I thought I defended him.
What is annoying me is every time I answered you, you switched subjects, ever so slightly, and came back with with something else.
I was just asking if your definition of “playing well” means you want me to converse in the same vein as those folks attacking SA–no one seems to be having a problem with that kind of nonsense. And I think my responses to you are on target. It’s an evolving dialogue on an open thread. It seems you are frustrated by facts that you happen to disagree with.
Gainesville, parts of POW look better now, but other parts still have have a run-down, third-world look about them. The City of Manassas turns a blind eye to the commercial vehicles and junkers parked every which way. What used to be a nicely treed area with affordable homes now looks no better than Georgetown South in some places. My own former street looks like trash, and it’s sad because that’s where my older kids essentially grew up.
My frustration comes from the fact you seem to want to bounce from topic to topic, Emma. I also feel that rather than addressing an issue, you just want to gouge democrats with a stick. Why bother.
If we are going to discuss cap and trade, there are all sorts of issues and it doesn’t matter what happened with NAFTA or NCLB. Gainesville actually brought up some points that I think we might find common ground on.
We obviously have some impact issues on the earth. How serious are they? Depends on who you talk to. We can control what we do but not what China does, for example. Whatever we do is going to cost us money. Whatever we do, people are going to look to us for leadership.
Can we agree on all of the above as a starting point?
Emma, I just find oppositional politics horribly counter-productive. Perhaps it is because I am a moderate. I find landing in any camp or most bi-partisan politics just not where I want to be.
You may not like bipartisan politics, but that is what is ruling the country right now. Obama has made a pretense of “bipartisanship,” which basically means “vote yes with no compromise; we won, so shut up.” That is why legislation gets rammed through without an opportunity to even read it. That is why every problem is now blamed on Republicans–Democrats NEVER make bad decisions or create disastrous legislation, they just inherit it from Republicans. That is essentially what you were saying about Clinton, that anything that went wrong was because of his predecessor, and that is the constant media drumbeat about Obama. For once I would like to see this new President step up and take ownership, and stop campaigning against Bush once and for all. When our coal-dependent jobs go away, it will be interesting to see how Obama spins it to somehow blame the Republicans and Bush. Apparently, he only sees himself as cleanup crew, and not the foreman.
excuse me, I meant “oppositional politics” in the first sentence.
No, that isn’t what I was saying. I never said NAFTA was good or bad. I said I opposed it at the time. I wasn’t blaming anyone. I said, and continue to say, that it was a joint effort going from Reagan to Bush to Clinton.
I don’t like partisan politics but that is what you get in a 2 party system. I think more of our legislators need to attempt to find common ground.
No one here is blaming everything on Republicans or saying the Democrats never make mistakes. Republicans had the past 8 years. During part of that time, they held the presidency, congress and the senate. Now the Democrats are trying to ram everything through. I hate how both parties behave.
However, being an independent moderate isn’t a safe place to be. Then everyone from both sides gets to pick and slam. Everyone gets to take a shot.
Emma, you dislike Clinton, Obama, don’t think much of either Bush, say you aren’t a Republican but defend them with your last breath. I am tired of listening to all the Republican crap about Obama.
I had a very difficult time coming over to the Obama camp myself. I am going to sit back and give the guy a chance, pretty much like I did Bush II. You will only make yourself miserable if you don’t back off some. I am sure Obama has done something you like.
Well, no, actually he hasn’t. And more people are going to be losing jobs, and the finest healthcare system in the world is going to be destroyed. Rather than provide some kind of safety net for the 20 percent or so uninsured, and limiting malpractice payouts, we’re going to punish the 80 percent or so who are insured by forcing them into some bureaucratic nightmare of a healthcare plan. And we all know how efficiently the government handles Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, don’t we?
And I’ve said this before: I’ll give as much consideration and support to Obama as the vast majority of Democrats gave to President Bush once they decided that support for the war effort was no longer politically expedient for them. That’s not to say the Republicans don’t have their own brand of corruption. That is simply to say that many of the newly smug, self-righteous Democrats out there are no different. That’s really the whole point. Watch Al Gore fly victory laps in his private plane to celebrate if this energy bill makes its way through the Senate. Listen as Obama tells an ABC News reporter that if one of his loved ones were sick, he would only want the very best care for him. Watch as Congress reserves for itself the very best healthcare plan (as it has now), while taxpayers get second-rate rationed care. Watch the hypocrisy while Obama spends trillions of dollars during recession and record unemployment to unfold his entire liberal agenda in his first year.
The Democrats really cannot do a lot of this alone.
I would argue about this being the best health care in the world. It isn’t for people who cannot access it. 80% of the people in the United States aren’t thrilled about it. Quick math tells me that. I expect the people who are thrilled about it might be those who have super plans and who live in areas where there are plenty of doctors who speak their language.
There are a whole bunch of rural people who cannot access doctors because there aren’t any out in the boonies. There are also a lot of unemployed people who not only have no job, they have no health care because they can’t afford it. There are a whole bunch of people out there who are employed but their employer doesn’t provide benefits.
There are lots of senior citizens who cannot afford the bridge policy or the rx policy. Many pay upwards of 300 a month. If they are living on social security, that’s a pretty big bite. Many doctors will not take new social security patients. That’s not the fault of social security.
People who do have health care find themselves paying more and more for rx, and for co-pay. Many people pay out of pocket. Mine is just under $500 a month.
Obviously something needs fixing. My friends in UK love theirs but they get taxed to death on gasoline. Americans do too much driving to support 6-7 bucks a gal for gasoline to sup0port health care.
I don’t like what is being proposed now and I am not sure what I would like. If I were king, I would probably put a horrible sin tax on alcohol and tobacco products. I am still not sure how I would force people to paying in, just a little.
The bottom line is that the have-no-benefits are costing the have-benefits out of existence. That has to change without bankrupting the country.
I am sorry, Emma, that you can’t find a single thing to like about Obama. You are going to have a miserable 4 plus years. I saw a lot of people torture themselves over Bush like that also.
It’s not the short-term 4 years I am worried about. It is the long-term future for my children, because everything Obama wants is an immediate “crisis” that has to be fixed now, the recession and record unemployment be d@mned, and no matter how many trillions it costs or how little consideration and debate is allowed before the majority party ramrods legislation through.
And there is one thing I actually like about Obama: Cute dog.
I feel certain my parents worried about the world I was going to grow up in.
I am not sure that the recession can be fixed. I think it can be made not as severe, but it is a natural part of the money cycle exacerbated horribly by the housing crash.
Unemployment can’t be fixed until the recession recovers. All of this was predicted back in the fall. I don’t like it but I understand it is part of process. And yes the government needs to do all it can do to help heal things. There is a lot I don’t like. I am just not thinking conspiracy theory.
How about a happy medium between nothing getting done except a war and major legislation whirring through the Capitol like a white tornado?
Interesting conversation last week with a young man doing
a graduate paper on the differing reactions of the City of Manassas
and Takoma Park to undocumented immigration. They are
a “Sanctuary City” and, well, we aren’t (although, of course,
Manassas is a Tree City and a Bird Sanctuary, and many other
good things).
Noted on the Takoma Park website that they too have a graffiti
problem – “No Nukes, Use Solar!” written with chalk keeps
showing up on sidewalks in downtown Takoma Park.
Also saw they have a strong Property Maintenance Code
(strong = with teeth, not just pretty pleases) that “requires
all residential rental property to be licensed and inspected
and a Rental Housing Inspections Landlord Certification be
obtained”. This would have been gutted long ago by the
property rights huff-puff GA if TP was in Virginia.
The point I shared with the young is I wasn’t sure
comparing TP and MC was really “apples to apples”. First,
I don’t know TP’s current demographics or how rapidly it
has changed in the last five years. I did observe that their
children attend Montgomery County Schools and they have a tough
Property Maintainence Code which, in different ways, help
mitigate the negative impact of immigration. Protect
public education and neigborhoods and keep the original
citizens from feeling under assault – not a bad concept.
Have to say I enjoy the point counterpoint between Emma and MH. Regardless of my opinion I enjoy and even pick up a thing or two. Keep it civil (as you do) and you just might teach a few folks a thing or two.
Poor Richard, great concept! Thanks for sharing. Did you happen to find out what kind of teeth their property maintenence code had? Would it survive in a dillon rule state?
Chalk sure is a lot easier to clean up than spray paint.
So who were the spray paint perps? They sure don’t seem like typical gang members to me. They didn’t even live in the same jurisdictions.
Even after being beefed up in recent years, the current military is still about 35% smaller than it was during Gulf War I. The cuts were largely bipartisan with Clinton trying to extract a “peace dividend” and Bush (actually Rumsfeld) trying to create leaner, high-tech military. Unfortunately, our current wars have proven that there is no substitute for smart, well-trained “boots on the ground.”
It takes much less time for new threats to emerge than it does to produce military personnel needed to defend against such threats. It takes years of investment and training to produce the field grade officers/mid-level enlisted that have performed so well in Iraq and Afghanistan, but only a single act of Congress is required to get rid of them.
I too understood that the Army needed to undergo massive restructuring to change their approach to dealing with the situations in Iraq, Iran…
Marching across continents is not the way to go. Although I consider myself a moderate Democrat and stereotypically anti I don’t know what anymore — I do not understand why Congress continues to try to do other peoples jobs for them. What happened to Patreaus was horrendous. I was horrified for him and because of what it meant FOR me.
We have left out the fact that there are many mercenaries serving in a military capacity. (often mercenaries trained by our military) Do we blame Clinton? How about those mercenaries who were involved in Southeast Asia in the early 60?
How about applying some foresight as Juturna implies.
It all depends on who you talk to about building up a military. Many officers I know who left the military recently did so out of disgust with how things were happening. Can’t prove it by me whether their gripes were legit or not.
I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to, MH. I suspect you are using the term ‘mercenary’ very loosely, but you will have to be more specific for me to understand what you are saying.