Oy, vey. I thought the Tea Parties were a way to revitalize the Republican Party. Apparently, they’ve opted instead to shoot themselves in the foot by inviting the anti-immigrant organization – Federation for American Immigration Reform(FAIR) that has been declared a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center(SPLC). The SPLC is a civil rights organization that was recently in the news after they correctly identified the Holocaust shooter as a white supremacist.
According to the Tea Party website, Jay O’Brien will be the Master of Ceremonies at the Prince William Tea Party. Excuse me, but wasn’t this guy removed from office by voters during the last election cycle? Also, noticeably absent from the agenda are any local politicians. Will Corey Stewart boycott because of the FAIR connection? What about Tito the Builder, who spoke at the last Tea Party? How can individuals accept the Tea Party movement now that they have decided to join forces with this anti-immigrant organization? And how very disappointing that Bob Marshall would agree to speak at an event with FAIR.
I wonder if FAIR’s speaker will explain their position of wanting to curb legal immigration? or will they just ‘focus’ on illegal immigration? If they speak about halting or severely restricting legal immigration then I predict that future tea parties will become increasingly void of any persons of color. How could this be our plan for regaining control at the state or federal level?
[…] Here is an example. A poster at ANTI-BVBL gets carried away, and she starts attacking the Prince William County VA Tea Party. Supposedly, this event will involve a hate group, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). How do we know FAIR is a hate group? Well, a supposedly authoritative nonprofit group, the Southern Law Poverty Center (SLPC) says FAIR is a hate group. The SPLC put out reports (See here for an example. Here FAIR defends itself.). That, dear friends is all it takes to prove something to some people, a few nasty words. Hence it must so, and so anyone associated with the Prince William County VA Tea Party must be hateful too. […]
CitizenTom,
Libelous against whom? You? Marshall & O’Brien? Well, that would be extremely far fetched.
Listen, don’t shoot the messenger. At first, you claim ignorance and now don’t want to be ‘judgmental’. Honestly, without good judgment someone will make poor choices, so judgment is not something to be reserved for God. This is one of those instances where those who agree to speak alongside a group like FAIR should be held accountable for their decision.
To clarify, I’m not suggesting anyone investigate individual attendees but rather a headline speaker and their respective organizations should absolutely be scrutinized. There is a wealth of information available about FAIR, some incredulous things come directly from FAIR’s own website, so there’s not even a need for a third party interpretation. Forget about the ‘hate group’ designation and just take a look at FAIR’s own website.
From FAIR’s website –
They have a video called ‘Immigration Gumballs’ which puts all immigrants and their decedents from 1965 into a chart that classifies them as part of an ‘immigration problem’. Calling second generation legal immigrants a problem runs counter to the America that I believe in.
I’m disappointed that the American Family Association condones this. I visited their website and I couldn’t find any indication that they support restricting legal immigration. I don’t know why this group (FAIR) received an invitation to speak at the event.
Citizen Tom,
You stated, in one post, more than once, that your focus is on our border. I imagine you are alluding to our “southern” border as I haven’t heard public rants about too many Canadians. What this tells me is that you too are focused on one group of people. If I am wrong, please correct me.
It seems to me that you are being defensive as you appear to have emotional investments, i.e. personal relationships, with many of the people organizing the “tea” party. Do you know that half the immigrants here without proper documentation overstay their visa’s? They haven’t “snuck” across any border and are from MANY different countries. I am disappointed that you too, seem to have fallen into the trap of organizations like FAIR. Are there issues with immigration, sure, but from what I can tell, people have been complaining about the scurge of immigrants since Ben Frankin complained about the Dutch Amish.
As far as Alanna being liable….HUH? I have reread this post, several times, exactly where are her words “ill advised” ?
Here are your words that led me to believe you were focused on one group:
“We cannot control the border no matter what we do.”
“Our government has Constitutional authority to regulate immigration and to punish people who cross our border without permission.”
“Illegals sneak across the border, stealing access and trespassing.”
Alanna, what there is is a wealth of accusations. Yours included.
I did not shoot you. I said what you are doing is wrong. You are picking out one group from amongst many and using unproven charges against that group to smear all the people involved in the event. That is not good judgment, and it is not right.
Then you would have me waste my time with needless investigations of a “wealth of information” you have not apparently considered yourself. Why should you bother? It is just a bunch of finger pointing. You can form any conclusion you want.
We are talking about politics. Should I consider giving FAIR money, then I would investigate them. Otherwise, don’t we all have enough to do. Isn’t our time better spent investigating the issues, candidate positions, and the competence of the people we have running for public office?
whoops, Ben FRANKLIN, not Frankin, clearly “freudian slip” given todays news 😉
Citizen Tom is right, Alanna is picking a fight and trying to smear everyone with mud from one group by “association” rather than “facts”.
That is like say Martin Luther King was a terrorist because he spoke at the same rally attended by some Black panthers.
Don’t you get it Alanna?
“One bad apple don’t spoil the whole bunch girl”, in reverence to the recent passing of Michael Jackson.
Hold up. If I’m a speaker at an event, it’s incumbent upon me to know the line-up. Just put aside the ‘hate group’ designation, FAIR very clearly believes legal immigration should be cut by greater than 2/3. That’s one of their principles and a basic motivating factor for them, no accusation, it’s pure fact.
Are you suggesting that primary participants in an organized event shouldn’t consider underlying motivation and beliefs of other primary participants? It’s not like this is some unknown detail about this organization. If these politicians willingly agree to share the stage with this organization then the implication is that they are not opposed to their purpose and principles. It’s really not that complicated, so forget about research and accusations, blah, blah, blah, just focus on what FAIR says about themselves. That’s really all that needs to be examined.
Remember, if you lay down with dogs you’re bound to get fleas. Basically, Marshall should be prepared to accept the consequences if he joins forces with this organization under the ‘Tea Party’ umbrella. Again, I thought it was great that Tito the Builder spoke at the April event! In my mind, that was movement in the right direction. However, the decision to include and partner with FAIR alienates the very people that we should attract.
Those of us who have been politically active know that these are the types of things that can come back to bite you in the butt:
For every “One bad apple” there is a matching “Birds of a feather flock together.”
Additionally, we know that FAIR takes on different ‘tones.’ They can be all sweet. mainstream and stictly concerned over illegal immigration. Then there is the FAIR who questions most immigration as seen below, taken from their own website:
I often agree with Citizen Tom on other issues, but I must admit I am puzzled to see him spending so much energy in an attempt to defend an organization with white supremacist roots, white supremacist members, and white supremacist funding … especially one with a track record as disturbing as F.A.I.R.’s. There are others on this blog that do not surprise me. Citizen Tom surprises me.
In any case, let’s look at the substance of Alanna’s basic assertion: that a politician, or former politician, might be tarred by appearing on the same stage with an organization with white supremacist ties.
Well, that all depends on who they want to impress.
Jay O’Brien has nothing to lose … and, really, nothing he can possibly win unless he carpetbags to another district … so let’s set him aside for a moment. Bob Marshall? On one hand, I can see Alanna’s point. He is up for reelection, and thus may want to reconsider speaking at this event now that F.A.I.R.’s involvement creates the stigma of an anti-immigrant hate rally. However, I think it would be fair to say that Marshall has never gone out of his way to pander to moderates. Now, I do give him credit for keeping his composure and holding his tongue for the most part during TheGregNCorey Show’s Anti-Immigrant Jihad of 2007, but Marshall’s core constituency is to the right of the mainstream. He wins if they come out to vote. He loses if they do not. So, appearing at this rally is not a bad move for him.
Alanna is right in one respect: any politician who was worried about his polling among moderate Republicans, Democrats, and independents might want to think twice before sharing the stage with an anti-immigrant hate group like F.A.I.R. But, any politician who would show up at a “tea party” in the first place is not exactly concerned about moderate Republicans, Democrats, or independents. So, I don’t expect Marshall to pull out of this one. He’d anger those who support him more than he would woo those who doubt him.
Our hosts are bringing attention to a significant political phenomenon: The effort by some anti-2I groups to glom on to the Tea Party movement. I personally feel that this is a bad development for the tax focus of the Tea Party crowd and reflects some degree of desperation by the anti-2Is, at least some of the more voluble and uninhibited ones who have done a lousy job (or who had no inclination in the first place) of hustling out the door some pretty unabashed racists whose real problem with illegal immigration is that they have a very negative, general, undifferentiated view of hispanic human beings. Of course, it’s possible to be very much anti-illegal immigration (I put myself in that camp) (or even anti-immigration) (I don’t put myself in that one) without the slightest racist leanings, but anyone who would deny that racists exist in loud proportion in the anti-2I movement has never followed this issue on the street, in the media or on the blogs. The skinhead/Klan/Aryan Supremacist mindset is very visible, and is virtually never (I’m tempted to say “never” without qualification, but I’m not omniscient) sent packing by the people who have appointed themselves to lead the charge on being anti-illegal immigration, whether it be in Prince William or in other places around the Nation. The folks who demagogue the issue for their own personal advancement have never, to my knowledge, mounted an effective, consistent attack on all the low and nasty elements that are attracted to this issue. They take the ignorance and hatred and harness it up for votes, for mini-fame, for ego-gratification. Once you allow yourself to get paid in that currency, you’re no better than the people whose rabble you’re rousing.
As for Citizen Tom’s point, he’s right that one can make an argument that there’s continuity between the legitimate concerns of the Tea Party movement and economic arguments that are made by some of the anti-2I community (I think that point is embedded in the flurry of things he says in No. 50). My own view after spending a lot of time studying the economic arguments fairly closely is that most of these arguments are palpably and obviously hooey, but I know many folks sincerely believe them. If one believes that lax federal immigration enforcement and spotty border control contribute to economic dislocation and public costs that drive tax increases, this is squarely part of the ethos of the Tea Party movement. The problem noted by the original post, however, is that there are some sectors of the anti2I movement that are so feverish, and so tainted by the company they keep, that the Tea Party organizers should have the basic decency and good sense not to let their movement be compromised either as to its focus, or its good name by getting mushed together with them. From what I’ve seen and heard about F.A.I.R., I would keep my distance from them. If that message isn’t clear at the get-go of the Tea Party movement, it will lose some, if not all of the gains it has made so far, and its enemies will marginalize it by reference to its dilution by these other elements.
An alternative point of view here – Obama for years listened to his minister preach racist idea’s. So by the logic above, that would associate Obama with him, yet I seem to recall many on this blog somehow giving him a pass for that. You can’t have it both ways!
GR, couldn’t we say that the impact of Obama’s relationship to that preacher has been evaluated by the voters and factored into the electoral results of last November? Obama squarely denounced the sentiments expressed by the Rev. Wright. Nonetheless, a number of voters probably voted against Obama because of the association and/or because they felt Obama’s denunciation was not timely or sincere.
A different point is being made here (I think). It is that the Tea Party group is relatively new and is addressing tax issues. This isn’t about whether Tea Party fans go to a church where the minister says wacky, scurrilous things. It’s about whether the TP movement will diminish itself or lose its focus by being associated with a group that has questionable links to certain elements and/or which has done little or nothing to distance itself from some of the more unsavory motivations for anti-2I sentiment.
I’m seeing the buzz here about Tito the Builder and happen to know he will be far from PW County that day. He’ll be speaking in D.C. on July 4th at the Tea Party in front of the Capitol, along with several other great speakers who are focusing on matters other than immigration. Also, Tito spoke at a Tea Party in D.C. last April and did not speak at the one in PW County. Count him among the flea-less.
Here’s a link showing the D.C. event:
http://teapartywdc.ning.com/events/tea-party-fourth-of-july
I just will have to disagree Nova Scout. Those who want to link people who attend or speak at one event for one day and not link Obama, who for 20 years associated himself with this preacher, just aren’t being reasonable. Yes, the voters have voted, but you still can’t have it both ways.
Ben Franken?? Thanks for a good laugh.
“Moral Values: From what I understand, if you cut out all the passages
in the Bible where Jesus talks about the poor and about helping the
least among us, you’d have the perfect container to smuggle
Rush Limbaugh’s drugs in.”
Senator Al Franken
GR, Obama isn’t the issue. I personally had strong reservations about Obama because of his link to the not so right Reverend Wright. Am I totally ok with it now? No. However, President Obama did distance himself from Wright. He not only distanced himself from Wright, he also denounced the rhetoric.
When NoVA Scout talks, I have always listened. What he says makes a great deal of sense, as usual.
The Tea Party Movement has a great chance, given politics in general at the present time, of becoming a major movement. If the riff raff of the anti-immigration movement hangs on to its coattails, that will be a strong detractor from the original intent.
FAIR has a long enough paper trail of questionable beliefs/people/attitude that I would think the Tea Party folks would just stay clear.
NoVA Scout, welcome back. As usual, we are always glad when you share your opinions.
So that I understand your point, could you please elaborate? Because they advocate a reduction in legal immigration and opposed to all illegal immigration, it sounds like a difference of opinion rather than hate or racism. I do not follow the ups and downs of immigration quotas so I can’t really opine on that.
You say to forget all the debate about whether they are a hate group for this discussion and concentrate on their stated position. But that makes it sound like you don’t agree with their positions, therefore they are bad.
I am not sure you mean to say that. So I am a bit confused.
An Ordinary Joe,
I would recommend you do some indepenedent research on FAIR.
I’ll only say about Obama, he didn’t denounce Wright fast enough for my taste, although i will agree he did denounce that kind of rhetoric. But it was only after a fair amount of criticsm about Wright came out, that he finally denounced him. For a long time he was silent, and it still begs the question if you dislike that rhetoric, how could you sit and listen to it for 20 years? I agree though, the voters decided it was a non-issue, but I guess I still think it is a fair comparison to compare speaking or attending an event for one day, to sitting there for 20 years listening to that stuff, and counting that person as a friend or spritual advisor.
Anyway, that’s the point I’m making, and I think I’ve said my piece on it.
I have no interest in going to the “Tea Party” actually, in case somehow my posts made it sound like I was planning to attend it.
IF that’s the case, the ACLU should undoubtedly be branded a hate group by the SPLC. The ACLU and SPLC are too politically aligned for that to happen.
I’m not sure why you keep bringing up the SPLC hate brand. The only people that give them any legitimacy are your faithful. Preaching to the choir? Shouting in the echo chamber?
Admin Note: The Southern Poverty Law Center was recently in the mainstream media for correctly identifying the white supremacist accused of the Holocaust museum shooting. They are used by law enforcement agencies across the country. And the worst accusations against them are they are too liberal or left leaning and that the founder accepts too much money from the organization. These two things don’t seem to discredit them. In my opinion, they offer a valuable resource that isn’t available elsewhere. If you’re tired of hearing about SPLC then perhaps you should read Elena’s link from the Anti-defamation League. Personally, I don’t need either organization to tell me what is so blatantly obvious.
An Ordinary Joe,
In Prince William County for the past year we have been subject to the mantra – ‘illegal is illegal, we have nothing against legal immigrants, we welcome them with open arms, etc…’ Now, politicians are partnering with an organization that very clearly opposes legal immigration. If Marshall & O’Brian want to come alongside an anti-immigrant organization that is their prerogative but the public is entitled to question that allegiance.
HUH Mando? The ACLU defends the right of people to speak their minds, they adovcate “freedom of speech”, even the KKK has the right to preach hate of minorities. However, I wouldn’t not invite the KKK to a “tea party” just because the have the constitutional right to spew division and prejudice.
Also, for those who blame sprawl on illegal immigration, not sure where you have been the past several years, but I have fought sprawl. I can tell you, as I told Dan Stein, it is not the fault of illegal immigrants, that is simply ignorant to suggest that. It is the fault of poor land use planning, expensive land, and people wanting more for less. It’s the big planned communities on land that is cheaper, futher out from the cities, that creates sprawl. NOT the fault of immigration. When people suggest that sprawl is the fault of illegal immigration, that tells me that we have truly gone to an argument, not based on fact, but based on convenient scapegoating. As the former treasurer for Voters to Stop Sprawl Princ William County, never ONCE, did we see, nor did any sister organization see immigration, illegal or otherwise, at the nexus of sprawl!
Alanna, thanks for some clarification. I do not intend to be part of the tea party and I know very little about FAIR. And I certainly not opposed to controlled immigration policies. It would seem to me that if there is a tax connection to illegal immigration then providing an opportunity to address that issue is a valid public discourse. It is what this country is founded on, that people with differning views are not restricted (without a valid governmental interest such as public safety etc).
Because an individual speaks at a rally that has other speakers does not automatically mean that the person agrees with the other point of view. Now if FAIR invited Mr. Marshall to speak at its rally and he did not dispute the positions of FAIR, then I would assume that Mr. Marshall agreed with FAIR. But not just because they are speaking at the same event hosted by another party. Just my opinion.
NoVA Scout – You are advocating political purity? You are uncomfortable about FAIR? That is certainly a specific complaint and a great reason to demand that FAIR be ostracized.
The Tea Party meetings are protests against radical change. To be effective, these protests must involve loosely affiliated coalitions. That is the only way to get anything approaching a majority.
All the Tea Party protesters have in common is that they do not like the radical policies that are currently being pursued by the folks in Washington. Given the variety of beliefs in this country, some members of any coalition will have to agree to disagree. Politics requires that we occasionally form common cause with people with whom we might otherwise not particularly care to associate.
Where do we draw the line? We don’t associate with people we know to be engaged in or in support of immoral activities. Alanna has yet to offer any proof that FAIR is involved in any such thing. All we have is the word of some outfit that has appointed itself to ID hate groups. Given the readiness of some on the Left to ID any who disagree with them as hateful, it is hard to take such an accusation seriously.
All sorts of things have contributed to sprawl in the region – and immigration of any sort, wouldn’t seem to me to be on that list. It is more the way suburbs just keep expanding outwards, and developers keep being encouraged to build more and more housing in what was once undeveloped areas. That statement about illegal immigration creating sprawl really makes no sense.
Actually, the only place I saw sprawl mentioned regarding immigration is in that quote from FAIR, going back rereading things. I don’t think anyone here on the blog has ever tried to make any connection between sprawl and illegal immigration. Somehow it sounded like there had been, but rereading things I don’t think that’s the case.
Some of my friends and relatives have a growing issue with
the “invasion” of their nation from the crazy one directly
south of them and how it is changing their beloved country
— they are Canadians. Today, in case you forgot it
(never knew it,ey?) is Canada Day – or as we old folks still
call it Dominion Day – July 1st.
” In history class, in seventh grade (or as we say in Canada,
grade seven) we learned the story of the American revolution
– from the British perspective. Turns out you were all a
bunch of tax cheats and you weren’t very nice to the Loyalist.”
Malcolm Gladwell
” Canada is like a well-behaved family forced to live over a
biker bar.”
Robin Williams
Indeed, one remembers the Vietnam War draft dodgers – I think nearly 100,000 of whom went to Canada – and initially weren’t exactly welcomed there but then at some point were given legal immigrant status.
Actually, I wonder in recent times how many American citizens have emigrated to Canada?
Old Fashioned Liberal,
As I’ve said repeatedly, if you object to the ‘hate group’ term then just focus on FAIR’s stated position, visit their website – http://www.fairus.org, Dan Stein’s blog today has an anti-immigrant, population growth piece.
Based on my understanding of the American Family Association they are neither population growth control motivated nor anti-immigrant. It appears they have abdicated control over these 1300 Tea Parties to local organizers.
From FAIR’s website –
Again, this isn’t a way to attract LEGAL immigrants & attract them to the Republican Party. In my opinion, it alienates people and will be a detractor that will prevent people from hearing the message. And, so the criteria that politicians should use in determining working relationships with organizations should have nothing to do with their beliefs and principles? but rather whether or not they are ‘immoral’? That doesn’t sound right.
Hi GR,
I think I mentioned sprawl again because there is a tendency to blame illegal immigration on all our ills as a nation.
Mando, the ACLU was right there for Westboro Baptist Church freaks of nature in the latest Supreme Court Decision reaffirming their right to be there causing a ruckus at the funerals of US servicemen. (The God hates fags bunch) That doesn’t sound very SPLC to me, so I don’t think we can say those 2 organizations are in bed together.
GR, I agree with what you said about Obama and Rev Wright. However, given the option of him or You Bettcha Winkathon Palin, I felt there was no choice. So, I am sitting back, waiting, watching, and giving the guy a chance. It is very difficult to cut through all the enemy talk though.
Elena, and I mentioned sprawl because FAIR talked about sprawl. It all goes back to FAIR.
I agree about Obama, but a lot of what he is doing has given me pause – his plan to close Gitmo is not well though out, his health care programs are going to cost those who are already insured money (how much is yet to be determined, whether their existing insurance plan is affected is also a real possibility) and now the talk about a possible 2nd bailout of some companies also concerns me. Just to name a few things, but that is off topic for this thread.
Elena just had me confused when she said the following phrase: “Also, for those who blame sprawl on illegal immigration, not sure where you have been the past several years, but I have fought sprawl.” The way I read it, I got the implication that sprawl and immigration had been discussed on this blog somehow, when I didn’t remember that. Perhaps I just misread what the intended statement was there. Surely FAIR would have no idea of Elena’s membership in any local growth control organization.
When it comes to tea parties I think that they should just concentrate on the absurd spending going on and the massive taxes that will soon be coming to pay for it all. Adding immigration to it just mucks it up.
Wasn’t it Obama who said that NOBODY making less than $250k would pay a cent more in taxes?!? HA! What a joke that was, it’s odd that people that voted for him are still not holding him to that or questioning it.
Also, someone had mentioned bailouts… Does anyone know how GE, which is not a bank, got over $140 billion in bailout money? Easy, they bought two small Utah banks and presto, the Obama administration gives them $140 billion in out tax money essentially buying the white house it’s very own new outlet in NBC and MSNBC (which GE directly owns).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/28/AR2009062802955.html
Also, when all of the banks and car companies got bailout money what happened to all of their execs? They were paraded out and bashed and publicly humiliated by just about every elected official. What did they do to GE’s CEO you ask? Obama rewards him with an appointment to his very own economic advisory team! Just watch, something shady is going on with this administration and GE and nobody is asking about it. Why?
That is that type of crap that is bringing people to tea parties. Ill give it to Obama on one thing, he did bring change to Washington. It went from bad to OMG, what the hell is going on!?!
Alanna – Being against immigration and for zero population growth does not make FAIR a hate group.
Are you sure you are not attacking people just because they do not think like you? It sure looks like it.
Admin Note: Go re-read what I said.
Put the ‘hate-group’ designation aside, just look at their beliefs and principles and that should be sufficient for the organization to be excluded from the American Family Association event. Additionally, we should hold politicians accountable for their willingness to work alongside these groups. Nothing too radical here folks.
Old Fashioned, reminder, Alanna did not designate FAIR as a hate group. SPLC made that designation.
What I find suspicious about ZPG and FAIR is that both organizations are very different and both were started by the same man. On a more extreme level, it would be tantamount to discovering that the same person started the KKK and the ACLU.
Hello, GE has a financial arm. That is one reason that the stock lost so much value.
The SPLC also designates the American Legion as a hate group…
12 million people do not contribute to sprawl? Then where do they live? I guess they aren’t driving cars either because that would be against the law.
GE’s financial arm is a pretty large part of the company actually. It has been a drag on GE’s profits, as MH noted. There is some talk of it perhaps being spun off from GE, actually.
Yes GR but GE’s financial arm didn’t qualify for bailout money. So they bought two small Utah banks to get hundreds of billions of our tax dollars and then their CEO gets appointed to his economic recovery team, that is the point.
How does a CEO who runs a company that needed $140 billion qualify to be given such an honor? Because he just happens to own NBC and MSNBC who can push his agenda, that’s how.
I wonder what it is the American Legion allegedly hates, according to the SPLC. Would be interesting to find out.
hello,
Can you provide a link for that?
Wasn’t hard to find, I just googled SPLC American Legion and here’s what I found:
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2008/10/31/american-legion-attacks-report-and-splc-responds/
Indeed, it is a true statement the SPLC considers the American Legion a hate group!
Interestingly enough, just blundering around their website a few seconds – they define the Jewish Defense League as a hate group too. One can debate at some length about the JDL, but they respond to hatred against Jews, so I’m not sure that makes them automatically a hate group. Once again, some of the groups on their list are a little hard to fathom. I’m not sure I believe everything they say in the link I reference above.