From the Study of Prince William County Police Illegal Immigration Enforcement Policy Interim Report 2009:
“Most of the illegal immigrant arrestees referred to ICE have committed only minor crimes. If the objective of the County’s immigration enforcement effort is to reduce serious crime, then the current policy does not provide a very efficient means of achieving it. If the objective is to remove illegal immigrants, then ICE does not have sufficient resources to handle the large numbers of referrals that would result. ICE currently tries to limit the types of offenses for which it will pick up illegal immigrants to more serious crimes in jurisdictions other than Prince William County.”
It is clear to me that this one, brief but succinct paragraph, just about sums up why I feel like this county’s policy has no real direction. What is this policy suppose to do? Because from this interim UVA report, both objectives are failing.
Although the supervisors were unanimous in their vote for the immigration-related law enforcement policy in July and October 2007, they were divided in their thoughts about what the policy should do.
When we spoke with them in summer 2008, the supervisors listed their own motivations for supporting the policy. Of the five supervisors we spoke with, four had participated in the initial unanimous vote in October 2007 (the fifth was elected in November 2007 on a platform opposing the policy). Among them, two indicated that the policy, which they supported and thought would improve public safety, was directed only toward criminal illegal immigrants. A third supervisor said that the initial motivation was to try to reduce such neighborhood conditions as overcrowding in homes, cars parked on lawns and crowded emergency departments in the local hospitals. The fourth supervisor reported that the policy was intended to remove all illegal immigrants from the county. Members of the Board of Supervisors also thought that the policy could reduce costs and save the public money, as indicated in the framing of the resolution.
How can we accurately determine whether the policy is reaching its intended goals if our Supervisors don’t agree on what the policy is suppose to achieve.
“Well, we can’t deport banking executives.”
Yeah, that’s too bad because some of them are the ones who should go! We’ll suffer their follie for quite a few more years to come.
Food For Thought, thanks for posting your comment a second time. I am glad to hear that the 14,000,000 is not neccessarily going to be spent. If it turns out that all of these studies continue to show that there has been no results to show for our first two years of investment, then yes I would support reconsidering whether to spend the rest.
But what do you think? You seem to know more about the policy than most people here.
For me, the most important thing is that law enforcement experts make the law enforcement policies. Politicians just screw things up. Especially when they think the issue will carry them to higher office.
If Chief Deane wants to keep the policy then I trust him. If it’s Corey Stewart just trying to cover his behind and blow smoke with his fellow Supervisors letting him play politics on the county dime, then I’m against it.
“Well, we can’t deport banking executives.”
Don’t forget the Congressmen and Senators they’re in bed with.
“And, once again, I contend the poor economy has had as much,
if not more impact, than the Resolution on immigration in PWC.”
I believe the doomsayers rhetoric (Nancy Lyall, MSF, etc.) had more impact then both the economy and the resolution combined.
The BOCS directed the study as part of the resolution (I guess not all the resolution was “bad,” huh?). What the Board received was an interim report and the final report is due by mid 2010. So, yes, Pinko, the report will be done again.
As to Moon’s point re: It’s the HOW not the WHAT, it’s a fair point. But ShellyB says, “we wasted $14 million.” This is a “WHAT” issue. If she is upset about the “HOW,” that’s fine. My only point is, go ahead and complain about the politics, the rhetoric, the BS–the “HOW.” But saying the county “wasted $14 million” is not accurate because 1) it is money spent on the CAU and 287g at the jail–the WHAT and 2 items that most people on this blog seem to support. That’s why I have been trying to get an answer from ShellyB as to whether she supports these items or not. If she doesn’t, that’s fine. But all she has seemed to say so far is that she’s upset about the “HOW” and the “HOW” wasted $14 million. This is inacurate. The “WHAT” costs $14 million. Reasonable people can debate whether this “WHAT” is a waste or not. But you can’t be upset about the “HOW” and then lump the costs of the “WHAT” into your arguments if you want to make a consistent argument.
HOW now brown cow. (just wanted to throw that in there.
ShellyB, thanks for responding. Based on your answer, it seems you are upset about Corey Stewart’s actions more than anything else. (The How). I don’t know what Corey’s or the Chief’s real motivations are–I don’t know them. But as an outside observer, it seems everyone seems to be comfortable with where things are, whether for good politics or good policy. As such, I’m fine with the way things are today….
@food for thought
Don’t say “brown.” It’s racist.
I am SOOO kidding! Had to throw that in there 🙂
There will be more threads on this report. This is simply the main crux of what I found to sum up the foundation of their research. It is also interesting to me that several times, the change in the original resolution, from “probable cause” to post arrest check, had a clear impact on how the policy was implemented. More than once the report referenced its inablity to draw any strong reliable or valid conclusions because so little research has been done prior to the resolution implementation.
THIS is what I do know, this county was torn apart over a resolution. 287 G had been implemented in the jails long before Greg et al worked their fear tactics on an entire community. Now, we are back to 287 G, and what have we lost in the mean time? There was a better way to deal with community tension, another aspect that the report clearly recognizes as the main instigator for the resolution. Crime HAD not increased with the influx of immigrants, in fact, crime had steadily been decreasing over the past several years. I would strongly urge everyone to take the time to read the report in its entirety. Like Moon-howler said, there are parts we can use to bolster our own arguments, but in the end, I don’t think it was worth it. Somehow places like Fairfax have survived the diverse nature of their county, why couldn’t we?
@food for thought
“The BOCS directed the study as part of the resolution”
Wasn’t that after they already decided to adopt it? Recall the Human Rights Commission who said the resolution was based on anecdotal evidence. Basically, the BOCS did this backwards. You don’t adopt a major policy and then say, “Oh. Maybe we should study the issue, first.”
Pinko-
I’m pretty sure the resolution itself directed the police to commission an outside study. Doesn’t someone on here have a copy??? Oh, and by the way, you shouldn’t call yourself “pink” its…nevermind.
Food,
The point Pinko is making is that there was NO research done prior to the implementation of the resolution. I remember when John Stirrup wanted to pass an energy resolution. It FAILED! Do you know why? Because no one knew how much it would cost to implement! The only probem, is that John had not suggested ANY change to our energy consumption on a government level. He simply had wanted to allow a FREE analysis to be conducted by a professional energy conservation company to advise the board on how we COULD save money and be more green. THAT resolution fails, but THIS immigration resolution passes? Does that make sense to you? The human rights commission asked for the evidence, Corey and John had NONE, zippo, nada.
“THIS is what I do know, this county was torn apart over a resolution”
Actually, we were torn apart over illegal immigration.
“Somehow places like Fairfax have survived the diverse nature of their county, why couldn’t we?”
You must not live in PWC. We are and have been very diverse. Everyone seems to be getting along just fine.
“THIS is what I do know, this county was torn apart over a resolution.”
BS. You and your compatriots were torn apart over a resolution. The COUNTY voted for a resolution.
YOU wanted disharmony. YOU wanted tension. YOU wanted this to be a race issue.
The COUNTY wanted the illegal alien issue dealt with.
This corrupt government run by elitist cronies has you so convinced that illegal immigration is a way of life and an inevitable fact of life. that you can’t envision a future without it, and so claim that the resolution to follow law is the thing tearing us apart.
It’s actually the presence of so many people here illegally, and the continual rewarding and coddling of them, and the selling by banks to them of homes in our communities, and the inability of the county to enforce zoning laws, that tore us apart. The resolution has – the report shows clearly – brought us to a better place.
@food for thought
“Oh, and by the way, you shouldn’t call yourself “pink” its…nevermind.”
Hee hee! I call myself Pinko because GL and the gang started calling me a whacko socialist. I figured if they wanted to give me a tag-line, I should just go with it 🙂
You know, they can be extremists AND you can be a bit wacked out. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I so agree with Mando’s last few posts.
@Rick Bentley
I prefer “atypical” or “non-conformist.” 🙂
[ED Comment: Harry, I took your comments directed at Pinko down. We cannot allow personal attacks towards our regular contributors. You have personal issues, obviously, with this individual. They need to be dealt with in a different forum. This is just not the place.
Debate issues all you want. No personal attacks.
You may contact me at [email protected] if you need further clarification. ]
Sorry I messed up the quoting above – hopefully it makes sense –
Food, I supported 287G because it was a fallback to what we had before the Immigration Resolution war. I saw it as a return to normalcy. But if it becomes obvious over time that even this was a poor use of resources, then I would say get rid of that too. Things are changing with regard to the federal issue. Also our bottom line financially in PWC is not what we thought it was when we said 14,000,000 over five years was worth it.
And thanks as always for sharing your expertise.
@Rick
I am not sure that the Resolution impacted any of these things. People are still here illegally. Zoning laws are still not enforced. School demographics have not changed significantly.
I think the economy impacted the area. I am not sure how much of any of the change has been generated by the resolution. I am not sure that impact is even quatifiable.
Food for thought, yes, thank you for your input. I need to go back and reread about the $14 million again.
Harry,
These comments reflect but a few of the anti hispanic hysteria that was given life during the resolution debate. It wasn’t brought on by me,pinko, Alanna or the people who had the courage to speak out against it. It was brought on by fear. The issues you describe Harry are not an illegal phenomenon, but an economic issue. The County did a poor job, to say the least, of dealing with these specific neighborhood concerns. Had they been more pro-active as opposed to reactive, we all could have been saved the trauma of what happended in our county.
Your anger and vindictiveness towards Pinko simply makes you appear unreasonable and nullifies your arguments.
Rick,
I think I have suggested this before, do a little research on all the groups that have been villifed as new immigrants. The talking points are ALWAYS repetitive. Is there and immigration debate that we need to have, sure, but no this way and not with these disgusting prejudicial generalities about one group of people.
1. Principi Loves Illegals said on 25 Apr 2008 at 12:58 pm:
It’s no wonder that Principi wants to rescind the Rule of Law Resolution when the parents of his Peruvian wife are illegal aliens living in Fairfax County. Too bad voters in Woodbridge weren’t told about this before they elected this disaster onto the board of supervisors…
More Calls To Remove “Good Time Charlie”
By Greg L | 1 May 2008 | Crime, Prince William County | 90 Comments
Riley over at Virginia Virtucon is calling for chief Deane to be fired:
PWC Police Chief “Good Time” Charlie Deane is at it again. This rogue cop who does as he pleases without regard to the intent of the Board of County Supervisors has finally gone too far.
Although his poor performance, insubordination, and coddling of lawbreakers are all good reasons to demand Chief Deane be replaced, it’s going to take a scandal to remove someone this firmly entrenched in county government. It’ll probably take another week or two for that to come out, though, at which point his demands will stand a much better chance of being honored.
1. The Dude said on 1 May 2008 at 2:47 pm:
I detest Chief Deane like a sickness. Stewart better stay on his case. If Chief Deane restricts in any way an officers ability to assist in detecting illegal aliens I say we call the feds on him for breaking federal law.
To Chief Deane: I hope you get run over by a drunk illegal alien.
1. Anonymous said on 29 Oct 2007 at 10:04 am:
I found “Turn PW Blue’s” comment at 9:24 particularly elucidating. Up until now I could not understand why the “educational” community was not entirely behind our efforts to repel this invasion of parasites. Now it’s clear. For each parasite, the school gets some chump change to use as it sees fit. For a classroom of 20 ESOL studs, they get $60K (for your dimocrats, that’s 20 X $3000). They hire an ESOL teacher at $40K, and that leaves them $20 K to play with. They think they’re making money on them.
1. “Dave in PWC said on 26 Mar 2008 at 9:27 am:
CoM,
I drive that way every day to work and back home, I know there are police there a couple mornings/evenings every week. I’m glad they are there, I’ve seen a few drag races on that road in the past when I get off work late at night. Usually souped up Hondas with wings added on. Go figure.
I’m thinking that maybe this raid is having another effect. This morning instead of the usual 25-30 kids waiting at the K-6 bus stop, there were only around 8 kids this morning, the “usual suspects” were missing. Not a brown face at the stop. So the grass didn’t get watered either… Hope we get a little rain today to make up for it.”
21. anono said on 14 Jul 2008 at 10:45 am: “I defy them to name ONE technological or scientific advance originating from Mexico or El Salvador. They can’t do it.”
Sure they can. They’ll just make up something.
5. Poor Richard said on 12 Mar 2008 at 1:11 pm:
“A more restrictive immigration law was tabled by House Speaker
Cannon. It was stopped, either directly or indirectly,
by the great corporations and labor contractors – the lower
in the scale of men these animals are, the more desirable
they are to contractors. You do not find in construction gangs
and sweat shops the thrifty German, the splendid Englishman or the
patriotic Irishmen, but the vile Italians.”
Baltimore News (Nov. 7, 1906)
Notes-
– Records show that the Irish got the same treatment
fifty years earlier.
Harpy Harry, you must adhere to the DportM school of spilling personal info. Shame on you.
Like they were taking good care of them before?
You should have been going from flop house to flop house giving tips and lessons on how to take good care of your home. You could have even published your own magazine – Better Flop Homes and Gardens.
You could have prevented all this.
Harry, I believe we have had this discussion before. Knock it off.
Stick to issues. We try not to allow open hostility to go on like that. I am in not mood to play referee this afternoon.
Thanks,
The Management
The majority of the anti-Hispanic hysteria comes/came from Elena and her gang. That was the biggest factor in the exodus. YOUR anti-Hispanic hysteria.
I mean, ALL you do is race bait. You’re a one trick pony. What else do you contribute? NADA. ZIPPY. ZILCH.
It’s just hilarious that someone so quick to cry RACIST can stand herself living in a segregated community.
Lest there be any confusion, my last post was directed at Elena.
Mando, where have you been hiding for the last couple years? Didn’t the big BOCS meeting concentrate on immigration status? Who lead the white brigade? Wasn’t it Greg and his minions? Please don’t rewrite history.
Elena, while we’re talking about racial prejudice : I wonder how many of the pro-illegal activists just flat-out prefer Hispanic people to other people? I wonder how many employers out there just plain-out feel that these people are harder workers than Americans, and deserve de facto citizenship, laws and regulations be damned. I’ve seen a few Youtube videos where subcontractors got busted on film picking up day laborers and eventually got angry enough to say it out loud : these people work harder than citizens, they’re better people, I prefer to hire them, etc. etc.
To quote Hussein Obama: “Let me be clear”…..this county was NOT torn apart by the resolution….far from it. The county, it seems, is doing just fine. The far left is torn up, but that is what they should be…it’s simply homeostasis. If folks, hispanic or otherwise, were here legally and moved away because of the resolution…cool! This county is stronger and safer because of the resolution…and unlike other jurisdictions and levels of government, we had the guts to do something about it. We didn’t sit around on our butts and say “it’s somebody else’s problem”. Yes, the left went batshit crazy, but again, that’s quite normal.
“pro illegal activists” prefer Hispanic people? Ummm, I just refuse to allow people to call children parasites or suggest that we can and will blame all our problems on the most vulnerable in our society.
“Didn’t the big BOCS meeting concentrate on immigration status?”
What does that have to do with race?
You can’t tell me the majority of people who support the resolution are racists. Constant race baiting is counter-productive and is just going to piss alot of people off.
Not all our problems … just some. These people are not parasites, but they are pawns in the sick game of keeping the rich rich.
@Mando
What I meant was, if people are here, take care of their houses and don’t commit crimes, then leave them alone while the immigration mess is worked out. The problems that drove people insane were neighborhood problems. YES there is a problem with illegal immigration and I don’t think being here illegally is a good thing. It does indeed need to be fixed. But not at the local level.
Elena, thanks for responding to Happy Harry who is apparently unhappy.
“I just refuse to allow people to call children parasites or suggest that we can and will blame all our problems on the most vulnerable in our society.”
Wow. Mighty self righteous of you.
“What I meant was, if people are here, take care of their houses and don’t commit crimes, then leave them alone while the immigration mess is worked out.”
That’s exactly what is happening now. You think all the illegal aliens are gone?
Actually I think not calling children parasites falls under decency rather than self-righteousness.
@Mando
So Mando, are you saying here
1. The problems were neighborhood problems and that if you had good neighbors, you wouldn’t have questioned their legal status?
2. The resolution didn’t work because there are still undocumented immigrants here?
“You can’t tell me the majority of people who support the resolution are racists.”
Mando, I’d say xenophobes rather than racists and many, not all. Some had very legitimate neighborhood complaints that should have been handled by NS which I think has dropped the ball in recent years in PWC. The woman at the meeting who said her mother was scared of Hispanics…well, I think that speaks for itself.
Drive down Morningside Drive and tell me which house is the pigpen with cars parked all over the grass and vending machines in the front yard. Clue! It’s not owned by Hispanics and your resolution hasn’t solved the problem.
Xenophobes…….good God. Well, as long as you kiddies have a name to call people, I suppose all is right with the world.
Slowpoke, not to be nosy, but do you live in one of the impacted areas like Rick and GR do or elsewhere?
I am finding that a person’s zealotry on this issue is directly proportional to the degree their neighborhood has been impacted.
I live in Prince William County, but I don’t have a flop-house next to me. We do seem to have black bears in the area, but they speak English.
Slowpoke, you can dance around the issue of xenophobia all you like but it doesn’t change the fact that too many people got up at the marathon BOCS meeting and told of their fear of “illegals”. Since it’s obvious that they couldn’t tell that people were illegally here by looking at them and that the majority of people who showed up at the meeting were Hispanic, I think one can safely conclude that they were fearful of Hispanics. Xenophobia is simply fear of the foreign.
Hee hee, laughing at the touch of “kiddies” name-calling…
How purrfectly GRRRRReat! Don’t make eye contact with it!
I have a nice flop house next to me. My only objection is I never quite know who my neighbors are.
How about possoms? Got any of those?
I”ll take that as a compliment Mando. If someone called my children parasites, I would be horrifed, sorry you don’t feel the same way.@Mando
🙂@Posting As Pinko
Ok, all else aside, what should happen if flop houses start up again? Quickly now, since everyone swears the Resolution isn’t the answer. I need to have the solution in hand so it can be presented in place of another resolution should action be necessary.
What is the required M.O. of a flop house? I am not being sarcastic SA. Because as a young single person, I always had at least three, sometimes four roommates in a townhome. None of use related, and sometimes the basement, not exactly a bedroom, was used as a seperate room to make the 4th “bedroom”. I agree, a noisy house with multiple unrelated people is an issue. There should be a way to deal with that problem, but the solution has to be well thought out and not result in unintended consequences.
Second Alamo, I think that is a question for your supervisor. I think they havent gone away. In fairness, the one next to me is just room rental. I wouldn’t call it a flop house and he is very careful about who he rents to, from all surface appearance.
I think it is always a good idea, when possible, to make sure you know the landlord. Most people don’t want trouble around their property. Most people also don’t usually want their property torn up. It is expensive to fix, even if they don’t give a damn about the neighborhood. You can usually find that information on land rover or at the county complex as well as how to get in touch with them. Usually.
Even on this blog the anti-immigrant side is so easily exposed as being based on prejudice. It was even more exposed back in 2007. I don’t know what point some of you see in revising history. Saying this blog caused racial division in the county is like saying a boat caused the lake to be wet.
True, only a few of the citizens who were part of the Letiecq, Stirrup, and Stewart ambush were driven by hatred. Many probably did not know they were being manipulated. Most were just afraid of two kinds of changes they did not like. One was a more diverse society where there were many Latinos. The other was a more progressive society where both Virgina Senators could be Democrats and where an African American could become President.
These people felt like they were fighting for the existence of the world as they knew it. They were usually older than 60 and from a more segregationist era. They were easily frightened and manipulated by racially strategic propaganda. But this makes them victims in a lot of ways.
As many have pointed out, their entire argument was based on the ASS-sumption that anyone who the saw who was Latino was undocumented. But Greg assured them their fear was founded. And so a policy that hurt everyone in the county was driven by a few frightened people being manipulated by a few liars with political motivations.