From the Manassas News and Messenger:
Published: August 14, 2009
The American Civil Liberties Union on Friday filed a motion to dismiss charges against four Hispanic men arrested for loitering near the Coverstone apartment complex in Manassas earlier this year.
In the papers, filed in Prince William General District Court, the ACLU challenges Prince William County’s loitering ordinance, saying the law is “unconstitutionally vague,” and allows police to target “disfavored groups.”
According to the court documents filed by the ACLU, Alberto Miguel Arias, 35, Juan Canseco-Rodriguez, 51, Jesus Velasquez Lopez, 43, and Isreal Lopez Amador, 36, were arrested for loitering on May 5.
According to the ACLU, the men were part of a larger group of men standing on the sidewalk near a bus stop outside Coverstone Apartments, where they lived, when police officers approached them on May 5.
The police officers asked each of the men for identification. The men who were unable to prove they lived in the apartment complex were charged with trespassing and the men who could prove they were apartment complex residents were charged with loitering, according to the ACLU.
Prince William County police late Friday said they had no information available about the case.
According to online court documents, Arias, Canseco-Rodriguez, Lopez, and Amador were all charged with loitering.
According to the Prince William County code, loitering is a Class1 misdemeanor, punishable by up to 12 months in jail and/or a fine of up to $2,500.
Nancy Lyall of Mexicans Without Borders said the four men charged with loitering contacted the group shortly after their arrests.
Nancy Lyall of Mexicans Without Borders said the four men charged with loitering contacted the group shortly after their arrests.
“We don’t understand the reason for the arrests,” she said. “They were standing in a public area.”
Lyall said the group received several complaints of police arresting day laborers in the Coverstone area this spring, but hadn’t heard of any recent arrests under the county’s loitering ordinance.
“We believe these individuals were targeted because of their ethnicity,” stated ACLU of Virginia Legal Director Rebecca Glenberg in a statement.
The four men are due in Prince William General District Court on Sept. 1 for a hearing on the loitering charges.
I decided this one couldn’t be summarized. Was this predictable or what?
Does anyone else wonder who else was involved in this case? I drive in that area frequently. I always see Hispanic men. I never see cops or people being arrested.
Stay tuned. This case should bring out the hounds of Hell and some lively red circles beating the war drums.
Meanwhile, who pays for this? Just askin’. I know who I would like to send the bill to.
GR, the City of Manassas came under scrutiny because its definition of family (zoning ordinance) had a disparate impact on a protected group. In considering whether the impact was intended or unintended, they considered that public officials who talked to the media tied overcrowding to illegal immigration.
I suppose the lesson to learn is to address the behavior and not the ethnicity or race of the people involved. Address the noise, cars,zoning ordinances.
On a lighter note regarding lack of (constitutionally unrequired) ID in a public place, did anyone see the story about Bob Dylan being stopped this weekend by some New Jersey policewoman who wanted to know why he was wandering around a minority neighborhood looking at houses. He had no ID on him, and according to the initial AP account anyway, the officers had no idea who he was after he told her.
Other accounts I read tries to soften the cultural illiteracy angle and say the young officer just didn’t believe it was the real Bob Dylan, but that sounds fishy considering how he looks and how he rasps. Anyway, without ID he had to be escorted by the cops back to his tour to find someone to vouch for him!
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iy8jnlcZu7jfNUS3KQ5phFhctnBQD9A2UAHO1
and many many more.
I saw that and laughed. The cops probably thought he was some old bum. I know my parents did and that was years ago. Bob probably liked the privacy of anonymity.
Leila,
Just wanted to say thanks for providing thoughtful discussion backed up with factual “spices” to go along with the very complicated notion of what constitues “illegal” loitering.
For me, the real issue here, is do we believe that Latino’s may have been unfairly targeted, either by citizen complaint or other means. There has been much discussion by many organizations, including police associations, regarding the leap from undocumented persons to “criminals”. As SA clearly describes his usual ASSumptions that latino equals mexican, I think the we can more easily understand the common theory by many people.
So here it goes…….our focus as a nation on illegal immigration control is our southern border, every discussion I hear ALWAYS entails controling our southern border,like there aren’t other areas of improper immigration.
“Mexicans” cross illegally into American, since many people ASSume that all Latino’s are Mexican, now follow me here guys, then ALL latino’s are from Mexico. Now although crossing the border without documentation is ony a misdemeanor (like speeding…raise your hands kids if you’ve ever been convicted of speeding, you are now a CRIMINAL, by many in the red cicle club), most people who are hysterical about illegal immigration call people without proper documentation criminals. Now, what is the connation of a criminal, someone who is….anyone….anyone….anyone, O.K., I’ll help you out, they are DANGEROUS. So, here is the simple equation:
latino=hispanic
hispanic=criminal
criminal=dangerous
latino=dangerous
Your math skills are excellent!
Transitive property of equality jumped right out at me also.
Thanks SA 😉
*I* am impressed that you used math properties.
Most of the time I find the actions of the ACLU to be a royal pain in the gluteal. But I was impressed several years ago when the ACLU defended Rush Limbaugh against the Palm Beach police and district attorney when they wanted access to Limbaugh’s medical records. The ACLU put principle ahead of politics in defending Limbaugh, so I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.
I think most of the time the ACLU is a royal pain. However, they do take the cases no one else wants to touch about the people that are usually exceptions to the majority. We hate their clients therefore, they get hated.
No fan of Rush Limbaugh here but he is entitled to privacy, even when he calls for others to have theirs exposed. I always get angry when I am put in the position of defending those I dislike. 😉
@Censored bybvbl
They were standing at a bus stop, my knowing source explained. Cops came up, asked them for ID and arrested them when they couldn’t show ID.
The cops can do this to anyone. Stand too long in one place, you can get asked for ID. Don’t have it on you? You might be taking a trip to the magistrate’s. That’s why this law in unconstitutional. Will it happen more often if you are a Latino man? Who knows anymore with the way PWC has become.
I’ll tell you what–if I were standing at a bus stop too long and someone just walked up and asked me for ID, I would be pissed! And to get arrested before anyone asks you to leave? Sorry. That’s too much of a police state for my liking.
And remember I’m the one who doesn’t care if the Feds want to tap my phone for reasons of national security. It’s pretty bad when something like this can piss me off.
It is reported the men were standing NEAR a bus stop, not at the bus stop. See how small details can make a big difference. Just how many were in the original group? This is probably what caught the police’s attention initially. I’m sure you’d be curious what was going on if you came upon 15 or 20 grown men standing together for no apparent reason. It’s not something you see every day, but unfortunately it is becoming a more common occurrence every day. If the ACLU is successful there’ll be no end to the numbers and sizes of the groups hanging around. Heck, one may be coming to a corner near you, then won’t you be trilled!
trilled? It’s Spanish for thrilled!
I would like to know who called the police and on what grounds. Ever since Greg Letiecq and Corey Stewart decided to demagouge immigration for their doomed political strategy for higher office, the police department had been forced to deal with a large volume service calls that had more to do with skin color than crime prevention. I do not blame the police man for this. It was the person who needlessly made the service call who created this mess. I hope that the judge understands this, so we the taxpayers are only saddled with defense costs but not punitive damages.
Hey Shelly, how about 15 men park their butts outside your home and then we’ll see who calls the police!
It used to be that if you broke the law it was you that was attacked, now it’s the law that is attacked. You see it with every case it seems. The usual suspects are the police, the victim, or the law!
But is that what happened? I am concerned that we are all drawing conclusions based on what we think happened rather than the facts.
I can understand not wanting a bunch of strangers parked outside your house for sure. But is that really what was happening? I am not aware of any private housing over in the area where this incident took place.
I am reserving judgement, again, until I find out some facts. Right now, the only thing I know is out of the News and Messenger and it is apparently taken from a press release. That is going to be slanted.
I also have the opinion that the Prince William County Police Dept is very professional and they have been under a great deal of pressure to ‘do something’ about the day laborer sites.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WPoc8eALz8
Shellyb, you ask a good question. Who called the police. Perhaps we can get that information.
MH,
I watched the video you linked to in #68, and found it interesting that the camera seemed to focus on only Corey and Greg, even when Greg wasn’t speaking. It seems the videographer was attempting to change the focus of the meeting to them and disregard the others present. Biased in some respect for sure. Almost as if an Anti person was behind the camera.
Now 2nd Alamo, I saw Maureen Caddigan in that film also. I also think the ‘bias’ you see is called point of view.
I would say the camera man was focusing in on Greg’s ramblings and Corey’s reaction, facial expressions, etc., oh yes, and the writing as the two men leave the room.
You’ve heard of near-beer. Well, in the near-words of Clement Moore:
If they were even standing NEAR a bus stop, how can anyone know whether or not they were waiting for the bus? And yes…who called? And why wouldn’t the cops ask them to leave before asking for ID and arresting them?
I’m usually one of the first to support the cops, but I can’t support this, no matter where these guys were standing. If they were just standing there doing nothing bad and no one knew why they were standing there and no one bothered to ask them to leave, I think this is just over the top.
That said, I am confident Chief Deane will sort it out the best way he knows how.
In the meantime, don’t stand still too long. You could get arrested.
@Moon-howler
“I also have the opinion that the Prince William County Police Dept is very professional and they have been under a great deal of pressure to ‘do something’ about the day laborer sites.”
That is true, and I respect that. However, our police aren’t under any obligation to appease ANYONE. They are there to enforce the law and protect. This group wasn’t doing anything but standing there!
Prevention is the best medicine, and taking conservative action before aggressive action is also best. I’m not saying the cops had bad intentions. I am saying this is a mess caused by people who continue to demand the county bow to their whims and the cops fear these people, which is scary.
If these “callers” are so concerned about crowds at a bus stop, then the should have had the balls to go ask them to leave before calling the cops. If they are too scared, they ought to walk out there with the cops or send out the building manager or something else. But the fact is, they want our police doing their bidding and using aggressive tactics that can be avoided. Cowards.
The cowards are the callers, btw. Not the cops.
Alamo, if I’m not mistaken, many of the guys lived at the apartment building on whose front lawn they were standing. If I lived in that apartment building, I would not have been offended if some of my neighbors were standing out front. They would have as much right to that lawn as I would have. I can be intimidated by large groups of men. Especially at night. But their skin color is of no matter to me. However, I cannot imagine anyone calling the police because 8 or 10 white men were hanging out together in public.
Race is an issue in this. That is why we are worried about our police department’s reputation and our county’s tax dollars.
But as I said above, this has more to do with a warped perception that any dark skin person is “illegal” and therefore I call the cops. The police cannot refuse to go to a scene when someone calls. So our police department is under a lot of pressure. There has been a steep increase in calls from paranoid citizens that are not about public safety but instead “I see brown people.”
Check out the UVA report. M-H, can you throw the link up for me?
@ShellyB
Shelly, I am not sure I would agree about color here. Some people might call if white people or black people or Asian people were hanging around. But near a bus stop? Come on.
That said, the “illegal” hysteria has caused Hispanics to become targets. But since we don’t know who called or what the motive was, we can’t assume the person is prejudiced against Hispanics. The point is, the law is unconstitutional and arresting people for standing near a bus stop is absurd.
I’ve called the police on non-English speaking neighbors, for noise compliants, several times 2-3 years ago. And I’ve called in complaints about the day laborers hanging out for hours in places where I know the owner doesn’t want them there, and has posted signs. So ShellyB and PAP, you’re talking very much about me and accusing me of racism. I don’t appreciate it.
Would I call the cops if my neighbors 2-3 years ago had been non-Latino, or had spoken English? Under the same circumstances, which involved speaking personally to them repeatedly, and involved one guy trying to harass me with noise only when his housemates were all gone from the house, and my wife being stressed out about the noise, definitely yes. Skin color and legal standing didn’t enter into it.
Would I call the cops if a bunch of non-Latinos or people who speak English or people who are legal to work in the US were loitering outside the Coverdale 7-11 and flagrantly disobeying the law? Well, I wouldn’t need to. The police have shooed away homeless people or anyone else who loiters all day at a business and scares the business’s customers away, for many years. This behavior is only allowed and deemed societally proper if the people are day laborers, signaled by the fact that they’re all Latino men. Then there’s supposed to be some presumption of goodness and the law is to be ignored.
Do you honestly think that if a group of let’s say black teenagers or white teenagers started hanging out at a 7-11 all day each day that the police would not shoo them away when the owner complained, and eventually arrest some for loitering if they would not stop it? Are you honestly making that arguement?
Your logic is beyond childish.
“Near a bus stop”. They play cat-and-mouse all day long. They make a mockery of our laws. They come here illegally, reduce US wages, and play cat-and-mouse with police trying not to be arrested. They need to be deported en masse.
And the real villian/idiot in all this is the lilly-livered wimps who encourage them to stay here when they’re not wanted and don’t belong, who can’t accept the will of their fellow Americans but rather cheer for the ACLU to legalize “loitering” if it will help the poor downtrodden illegal immigrants. You can teach them to move place-to-place (“near bus stops”) and make it harder for police to apprehend them. And you can encourage them not to self-deport. You can help barack O and the democratic party present the illusion that a “comprehensive reform” is going to make them legal here. But it will not happen. You’re feeding these people a lie.
They’re never going to be citizens, they’re going to live “in the shadows” or leave, and quite frankly things will never be better for them than they are right now. Some of you and the ACLU can fight your fight for as long as you want, but the American people are hardening our opinion, not softening it. These people will be gone. Crime will not pay. At the end of the day, loitering is loitering and the ACLU will not be able to change that.
@Rick Bentley
Rick, please read what I wrote: “But since we don’t know who called or what the motive was, we can’t assume the person is prejudiced against Hispanics. The point is, the law is unconstitutional and arresting people for standing near a bus stop is absurd.”
And I am outraged at the mentality some here have. I will redouble my efforts to not let this status quo stand.
Illegal immigrants should not have their kids in our schools, should not ahve Spanish translators available to them, should not be checking out library books or swimming in pools. Or attending loud drunken baptism parties. They should be packing up their stuff. There’s no place for them here. If you think otherwise, you just keep waiting for that big pro-Amnesty vote that gets less and less votes every time Congress puts it up to a vote, and is too afraid to touch until who knows when. The fight is over. We will as a people acheive consensus on this issue ONLY WHEN we create an America where those who break rules don’t profit from it.
Rick, you also said cops would “shoo away” teens or others hanging around. So they should have “shooed away” these guys as well.
“Near a bus stop” YOU ARE AN IDIOT. Can I go loiter at a bus stop all day long if I’m not planning to ride the bus?
If there were public property or private property near Coverstone where these guys were welcome, they wouldn’t ahve been arrested. There’s not. So they should GET LOST.
http://www.pwcgov.org/docLibrary/PDF/10636.pdf
Shellyb, there is the link.
I think we all need to wait until we see actual facts before forming a conclusion. The ACLU wasn’t there, I wasn’t there, you weren’t there. We actually don’t know what happened.
Rick and I would handle things differently. I probably would just go to a different convenience store that doesn’t allow people hanging out for whatever reason. I am not saying right/wrong, just differently.
PAP once again you make asinine posting. YOU DON’T THINK THE POLICE HAD TRIED TO GET THESE GUYS TO MOVE BEFORE? You really believe they went straight to arrests? Are you playing dumb, or are you really this dumb?
I drive by the 10 guys who still hang out over at the side of raceway every day over there and I mouth a “**** you” to them. That’s how I feel about them, about people like you who encourage them, and about illegal immigrants and the people who coddle them.
The law IS APPARENTLY NOT a joke, unless the ACLU manages to make it into one.
“I probably would just go to a different convenience store that doesn’t allow people hanging out for whatever reason.”
The 711 owner DOESN’T WANT THEM THERE. He welcomes organized efforts to call the police and try to get them away from his store. Ditto for all the other property owners who have shooed these guys away and posted signs. You just want to walk away and cede territory?
Well it’s all a question of degree. Like many legal residents where I live I’ve started shopping a few miles further out in Gainsville for groceries, because I’m frustrated to see the percentage of shoppers in my area who are illegal. I’d rather not shop with them, go to movies with them, etc. etc. because they don’t belong here, and I resent their continued presence. I’d rather not be confronted with it when I’m trying to grab a few groceries.
But I’m willing to call the police and see for myself if US law is worth a damn.
Moon-howler if the &-11 wanted to let those guys hang there, I’d approach it just as you suggest. But it’s important to note that THAT’S NOT THE CASE.
He’s just STUCK with them there more or less.
Some of you are either anarchists, or have lost touch with reality.
The ACLU is saying that loitering laws – used to keep people from camping out on private or public property – are unconstitutional because police can choose to apply them in a biased way.
They’re not aguing that the biased application is against the law. That’s a given.
They are arguing that the law itself can’t stand in this case.
You have to be an anarchist or a complete buffoon to believe that or to cheer for that.
This thing’s a temptest in a teapot anyway. The ACLU has as much chance of accomplishing anything here as that family of liars on lafayette Avenue does of getting a cash settlement.
It’s just an attempt to intimidate the people of PWC on the cheap.
Some of you are such ABJECT WIMPS that you actually respond to it, or pretend to. God save you, you either are or pretend to be such gutless individuals.
There is a new post/thread up on general loitering. Lets keep this thread for the specific ACLU case and general loitering comments on the new thread. Rick, I think you are making some good points that have nothing to do with this case. You have also made some snurly ones. Who are the wimps here and why do you think they are whimps?
Rick, how we would handle it differently probably has to do with gender. If I owned a store and people were hanging out there, I would call the cops daily. Kids, day laborers, slackers, drinkers, I wouldn’t care.
However, I don’t think that this ACLU incident happened at 7-11 or the adjoining property.
Here are some things we do NOT know:
Were those arrested warned? Were they blocking the sidewalk? Were they annoying passersby with remarks or in other ways? Was the caller someone who felt they shouldn’t be there or someone who had been wronged? Were they a set up? Had they colluded to go out and draw an arrest? Were the cops rookies? Were those arrested cooperative? Were they jailed? Does this impact 287G?
There are probably 20 more questions I haven’t thought of. All of these questions are critical to how I feel about this case. I will have to wait for the answers. I was not there, I do not know. Speculation is dangerous in this case.
I drive through that street every morning and evening. I’ll look for the bus stop tonight. I assume it’s close to the 7-11 and the other property these guys have been run off of.
They currently hang out at the side of Raceway gas. They maybe have found a small strip of land that no one’s quite sure who owns it.
On hot or cold days I feel sorry for those guys. I don’t know why some people here want to encourage them to keep with this lifestyle. It’s not going to get better.
Here is the case that was filed:
http://www.acluva.org/newsreleases2009/motiondismissloiteringpwc.pdf
Rick, I think it is done because no matter how cold or hot it is out there, they have a better life than where they came from.
People wanting to work has always been an American ideal. We, as a people, value those attributes in a person or group. We value people who want to better themselves. The old ‘pull yourself up by the bootstraps’ just doesn’t seem to be applied here.
Strike that law down and you may see a few citizens enact their own rules with baseball bats.
Rick, I hardly think if the cops asked these guys to move, they would have refused. If that happened, well then they deserved to be arrested. However, I don’t believe this is the case, and I hope the truth is told all around. The only way we are going to find a solution for this stuff is by looking at the truth.
“they have a better life than where they came from. ”
Yes, and we need to collectively work to change that. Let’s make them understand that they are, in fact, unwelcome.
“People wanting to work has always been an American ideal. ”
And another big part of our hostory is the fighting and bloodshed that men undertook to get unions going. It’s a pretty American phenomenon to physically attack a man who is taking your job for less money, and not playing by rules.
The truth is this inane dance with these guys has lietrally been going on for years. At least now the problem is much less than before. 2 years ago every day looked like a Cinco de Mayo party on Coverstone.
Rick, if they were illegal immigrants wouldn’t they be in jail now because of the resolution? I don’t think it has been established that they were illegal immigrants.
And there is where my problem with all of this lies. Assumptions. Pinko assumes they would move if asked. Maybe, maybe not. I can think of several reasons why they would not.
Rick assumes they were illegal immigrants. There are enough people out of work around here that they could be quite legal. I just do not know. Day laborer does not necessarily equal illegal alien–especially in the summer time. Before there were many Hispanics in PWC, other ethnicities hung out there and at the Irongate 7-11.
I have to agree with Rick on this point, that if the individuals were black or white males constantly hanging around some location or business, the police would consistently move them on.
The PWCPD’s history shows this to be so…Center Plaza in Dale City in the early 80’s, Manaport and Marumsco plazas before that were rife with teens hanging out and the police telling them to leave. The Coverstone 7/11 when it was all white male teens, the Featherstone High’s Store when it was predominately white teens, the corners in Williamstown which were mostly black teens. The police moved them on. Nobody from the ACLU complained, no organizations leaped to their defense.
The facts are that because the individuals are day laborers, it adds another wrinkle, the fact that they are Latino is politically charged. Remember what happened two years ago when 15 Day laborers were arrested for trespassing? They were warned to leave but did not. The protest groups came out complaining they were being picked on. So does this group get to stay because its “politically correct” to let them?
@Lucky Duck
Lucky, when the day laborers were arrested, did they have permission to be where they were? Some of the 7-11 owners don’t care.
MH, I am not sure why these guys wouldn’t move if asked to unless they didn’t understand why they were being asked to move. I also wonder if there was a “no loitering” sign present. I also wonder if they were obstructing passage or business, as the loitering law stipulates in its criteria.
No, they did not have permission to be there. If they did, then they could not have been arrested for trespassing – the elements of that crime means you are on someone else’s property without permission.