Several people on the previous thread accused the woman who yelled out , ” Heil Hitler” to a Jewish man, of being a “plant”, put their to create a scene. I would suggest to those people to watch and listen to conservative pundits. Rush Limbaugh, the self proclaimed face of the conservative republican party, reinforces the craziness with talk such as this, suggesting that the health care logo represents a Nazi swastika. Hmmm, I am beginning to worry about myself now! I am against animal testing, believe my children and your children should breathe clean air, and believe health care is basic human right. Uh Oh, my Bubbie would be horrified, Rush thinks I’m a Nazi!
Seriously, are people really shocked that nuttiness like this is catching fire. As a Jew I am offended, greatly, that people would compare, very specifically, a debate on health care to Nazism. Glenn Beck, with his diatribe on healthcare reform being reminiscent of Hitlers eugenics, is only one of many. Listen to Anne Coulter, not a credible pundit, but she does have a following, she also compares President Obama to Hitler in this interview.
Hitler used fear, hate, and division to wield his power. His improbable rise to power was because he used those less fortunate, those who were different, those who could be scapegoated. President Obama has shared a message polar opposite of that twisted legacy, he has extolled upon us NOT to be divided by our differences, but to come together, to remember we are ALL Americans.
We can debate policy differences, we can debate ideological differences, but there are NO similarities between President Obama and Hitler.
Why is the WG murder story at the top? This is still a local blog, right?
I think a murderer in our midst is far more important than national crap at this current time.
oops make that isn’t the WG murderer story..
This is stupid and pointless.
It will end when people stop giving it so much face time.
It isn’t there because I did it first. The posts go in in reverse order. Three posts were planted last night since yesterday.
Convince me why I should reposition the Westgate murderer story. How does it help catch a murderer?
Hitler seems to be the most popular guy to compare people to. People did it with Bush. Does anyone remember whether Clinton was compared to Hitler? I don’t remember. But we’ve got psychos on both sides. The conservative wack jobs (Beck, Savage, Cunningham…) and even more mild conservative psychos (Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter…) are better known and get more attention. But you also got your Garafalo who has made some shocking comments. The halls of Congress are not nut-free either.
And we the people are stuck in the middle.
And this is affecting us. They have got Americans taking sides calling other Americans “Nazi” and “big nose” and “Mr. Poopie Pants” and other insults. Some people have even gotten physical. A president has to have lifetime security for protection not just from our enemies but from us.
We all want the same thing. Don’t we? Peace, love and happiness. Where’s Rodney King?
There is something sad about having to look to Rodney King for words of wisdom, but I think you are on to something, El Guapo.
I don’t think Clinton was called Hitler, just Bush and Obama. People were too obsessed with Clinton’s zipper to get above his waste. No nose comments there. 😉
I do challenge your description of (Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter…) as the more mild conservative psychos. I think they are psychos on steroids. Actually they are just mean. They know just what they are doing and have gotten filthy rich off of it.
It seems to be forgotten that I remember seeing some posts by a very small subset of posters on this very blog calling Corey Stewart a Nazi.
Rush is an entertainer. The fact that his “rant” is posted here and we are discussing it demonstrates that he is a good entertainer. When people stop listening to him and giving his rants publicity, he will go away. The fact that he won’t “go away” is a testament to humanity’s bad judgment and the cornerstone of Rush’s success.
If you really disagree with him and would like to see him “go away”, pull down this blog entry and stop talking about him. The fact is you use Rush for the same reason he does outragious things… it generates interest. It’s the cable news business model… keep spinning until a plate or two drops… then add more plates.
I don’t want you to do a thing. It was just my opinion. Sorry
Opinion, it is hard to ignore a person who seems to be influencing that many people. I understand your point and it isn’t my post. I simply do not think someone as infuential as some of these entertainers are can be ignored.
Lafayette, and you are entitled to your opinion. However, moving the position of a post is not just a keystroke. If there is a compelling reason to do it, I would like to hear it. Is there a reason to put the Irongate murderer up first? Do readers and contributors pay more attention to first posts rather than subsequent ones? Feed back please.
Does everyone know about using the little ‘house’ up in the left hand corner? It takes you back to the beginning so you don’t have to scroll through so much.
I don’t want any extra work done. No, it wouldn’t matter…people are far more interested in “provactive” headlines. Again, just my two cents worth. I hate Rush getting in “air time”. The “FLUSH RUSH” bumpersticker were good to see back in the 90’s. I’m done.
“FLUSH RUSH” … I like it!
Let’s not foreget that we have an election coming up in two months. One party is hanging on by it’s finger nails. “Desperate times call for desperate meassures”.They are trying to rally their “low information voters” in hopes of regaining some relevance in the polictical process. Once Healthcare Reform is passed and elections are over, this will all be a bad memory.
John Bell seems like an impressive candidate for the 13th delegate district. My kind of guy.
Flush Rush works for me.
Kinda like when the hard-left compared GW to Hitler?
And do you think that was right, Tell it straight? I don’t think anyone doing that is right. It shows a lack of vocabulary.
We could spend all four years of Obama’s Presidency comparing him to Hitler, and wouldn’t even come close to the number of times Bush was called Hitler. Heck, we wouldn’t even come close to the number of times anti-illegal immigrant folks have been compared to the Nazi party (even though anti-illegals are by-and-large conservative and National Socialism is a far left ideology). Oh, you DO know that person with the Obama-as-Hitler poster was a Lyndon LaRouche Democrat, right? So, as a Jew, are you offended at the number of times Hitler and Nazi gets thrown around willy-nilly on this board as it applies to illegal immigration? Or is it just this time? I had to drop of my PhD program in History in 1994, but I’ve spent more than a little time studying history, and I would NEVER take the throwing around of terms referencing the holocaust lightly, but we’ve had 8 years of “Hitler” and “Nazi” being used as a conjunction in the hate-speech of the left. What do you expect?
Holy cow, the rumors are flying with the red circles. Some poor jerk has Candidate John Bell confused with Larry Bell who used to be in the multicultural office of Prince William County Schools. Somehow poor John Steinbach is thrown in for good measure. The fact that John Bell is a white man living in South Riding and Larry Bell is an African American man is irrelevant.
Poor circles just can’t get it right. I wonder who they will all vote for? Probably Jeannette Rishell’s campaign manager because they have seen her name so often.
“Look at your houses, your parents, your spouses and your children!
Are you prepared to see your dwellings in flames, female chastity
violated and your children and parents withering on pikes?
Look at the Jacobin Jefferson as a ravening wolf preparing to
enter our peaceful fold and glut his deadly appetite on the
vitals of our country!”
Connecticut Courant (9-29-1800)
There have often been strong words used in national debates through
the years, but not via 24-7 news, blogs, etc. Technology
has grown quicker than our ability to understand and reason.
I think this all depends on whose ox is being gored, Slow. I don’t think Bush or Obama bear the slightest resemblance to Hitler in looks or behavior. I think using terms like that show limited vocabulary.
As for what is condoned on this blog, every effort was made to have a non censored blog. As most of you know, that was not possible in all cases. Oh well.
Besides, Rush is the king of Nazi-speak. Femi-nazi, eco-nazi, help me out here…I know there are a lot more -nazisms.
@Moon-howler
Oh hey, I’m not saying that this blog should be censored, oh Lord no! But I am saying for some around here to get high and mighty about what Rush says is….well…..you know.
Great quote, there! But people think we’re so much more intelligent today than those who came before us.
@Moon-howler
Oh hey, I’m not saying that this blog should be censored, oh Lord no! But I am saying for some around here to get high and mighty about what Rush says is….well…..you know.
No, we don’t know….please fill us in!
Love that Rush!
Slowpoke, well, let’s see. Elena posted the Rush Limbaugh thread. I don’t think she has called anyone a Nazi. Rush has been nazi-izing someone or some group since he has been on the air. Who listens.
I am looking at the list of posters on here this thread. I don’t see anyone getting high and mighty nor have any of these people, to my knowledge, called anyone a Nazi. Have I overlooked anyone?
No one admits to liking Rush Limbaugh. Why not just paint a sign saying kick me and tape it to your back?
Moon, that’s such a poor argument (and you know it, and you know why) that I don’t think I can dignify it with a response. Are you being serious here?
Elena, excellent post. Thank you.
Hatred breeds in darkness, grows by masquerading as righteousness, is cultivated in the soil of fear, and thrives by being embraced by the ignorant.
To bring attention to such vileness as Rush Limbaugh’s “Nazi” rant is to bring light to darkness, uncover the masquerade, reject fear-ism, and expose the blatant insanity it really is and permit none to be ignorant of the real truth.
It would be a mistake to think that Rush Limbaugh’s point was about Obama and Democrats actually being “like” the Nazis. It wasn’t. Limbaugh knows it’s an outlandish stretch, and a lie altogether. Limbaugh’s goal was to inject fear in an effort to sabotage certain legislation. The “Nazi” angle was just a means to that end.
The more we recognize the imbalances, the better enabled we will be to achieve balance.
Although comparing Obama to Hitler is certainly in bad taste, the statements of a few commentators (who are unelected and whose job is to create controversy) pales in comparison to the Nazi comparisons of elected Democratic officials. As recently as last week, Nancy Pelosi tried to tar the entire protest against healthcare by referring to protesters as people wearing swastikas. During the Bush years, Senator Robert Byrd said that Bush reminded him of Hermann Goering (and Byrd actually was in the KKK). Al Gore called a computer team assigned to respond to criticism of the Iraq War as brownshirts (Nazi street thugs). And let’s not forget my personal favorite: Dick Durbin referring to treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay as comparable to torture at the hands of Nazis.
The nazi references to Obamacare have been relatively mild by comparison. Much of this resulted from the lowered standards of discourse that emerged during the Bush years. During the dark days of the Iraq War, Bush was routinely referred to as a Nazi by bloggers, leftist groups, and even elected officials.
I would be much more sympathetic if someone on this blog had called out leftist bloggers and pundits for referring to Bush in those terms.
Elena said “I …. believe health care is basic human right.”
You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but the problem is that you and Obama are trying to impose your beliefs on me. There is certainly nothing in the constitution that could be construed as supporting your belief that health care is a basic human right. If you really want a new “right”, I suggest that you work to amend the U.S. constitution.
The reason for ill will and name calling is that Obama tried to force this new “right” down our throats in two weeks before anyone even had a chance to protest or influence the legislation. Instead of governing, he has retained his campaign apparatus (i.e. propaganda machine) to convince voters that he knows what is best for us. When a citizen raises questions about how the health care initiatives will be implemented (i.e. government board to make decisions about what will be covered and what will not, known colloquially as a death board), the administration criticizes the questioner. The techniques employed by the administrtation are meant to stifle dissent and are not generally characteristic of a fair, open, and transparent government.
I think there is a huge difference betwseen Constitutional rights and human rights. Human rights can be anything we declare them to be. They do not have to be codified. Usually things we see has human rights do get codified in some form, however.
The problem with our health care system now is that millions of people are not part of it. Those people not only have inadequate health but they are also placing a huge financial burden on the rest of us.
Many people, even conservative people, feel it is time for reform. The problem is, we can’t all decide just how it should be reformed. What is scaring folks is, the Democrats have the ability to nuke it through. I am not sure that is the best way to do things and why all this shouting and yelling is just dead wrong.
It doesn’t really matter who called who a Nazi. What matters is that too many people are using scare tactics to cut off discourse.
@kelly
This blog has only been operational about a year and a half. Most of the time we were far too busy calling out the local far right over local political ploys to really get too concerned over what was happening with Bush and buddies. By the time we came along, Bush was definitely in his lame duck mode. Sorry, there are only so many vats of tar and feathers to go around on that one.
Actually I am hearing a lot of ‘well you did it first’ out there.
kelly3406:
The Constitution was ordained in order to “establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty…”
Secure the blessings of liberty.
The most fundamental of all liberties is the right to be and remain alive insofar as natural longevity permits. And the blessing of being alive is only so blessed where there is health that makes life worth living. Furthermore, a healthy populous is necessary in order for a society to keep itself secure.
So yes. Health security is a natural right of all human beings, and therefore healthcare is a right that should be secured by government (“secured” not necessarily meaning the same thing as “administered”).
As for your contention that “there is certainly nothing in the constitution that could be construed as supporting your belief that health care is a basic human right“, it is a moot point, as well as one which forgets the fundamentals of the Constitution. I remind you of the Ninth Amendment to the Constitution:
The Constitution’s provisions are not exhaustive. Just because a “right” is not enumerated in the Constitution does not mean that right does not exist and therefore ought not be secured by government.
@R Jay Pearson
Your argument is not valid. The Constitution is meant to limit the powers of the government, not the rights of the individual. There are only certain services that the Constitution requires the government to provide and health care is not one of them.
As a counter example, consider the right to bear arms. While an individual is certainly allowed to possess firearms, the Constitution does not require the government to provide firearms to those who are too poor to exercise that right. One could, with some reason, infer that gun ownership might be necessary to preserve one’s life in certain high-crime urban areas.
While it is certainly reasonable to argue that citizens have the right to pursue health care, there is no basis in the Constitution for the government to compel that health care. And there certainly is no basis for government to deprive others of their property (i.e. income) and privacy in order for select individuals to exercise their right to pursue health care.
kelly3406:
You stated:
Then according to your perspective we should disband the U.S Departments of Health & Human Services, Labor, Housing and Urban Development, Transportation, Energy, and Education. And perhaps even Veterans Affairs, since it exists to “provide excellence in patient care, veterans’ benefits and customer satisfaction.” Certainly not a service required by the Constitution to be performed by the government.
And then this from you:
Actually there is. It’s called the Sixteenth Amendment (the right of the government to collect income taxes). And revenues collected by income taxes are distributed to many various uses that benefit only select individuals. Like the disabled, for example. Or the elderly. All of whom, according to your perspective, shouldn’t receive any assistance (such as Medicare, for example) because the Constitution does not require the government to assist them in any way, shape, or form.
Yes, the Constitution is an instrument of government limitation. But it is also a mandate that we as a society have a duty to “promote the general welfare” of our fellow citizens, and that government is among the foremost means at our disposal to achieve that end.
@R Jay Pearson
Of course I am aware of the 16th Amendment, but money raised through income taxes should be used only for the services required of the federal government by the Constitution.
I do agree that many of the U.S. Departments should be disbanded (or at least significantly downsized; the VA is particularly worthless). It was the establishment of these agencies that allowed bureaucrats to intrude into previously unimaginable aspects of our lives. Roosevelt used the Great Depression to expand the powers of the federal government in a truly breath-taking fashion. Ever since, the government has continued to give itself more power in its unending, unsuccessful quest “to promote the general welfare”. If that clause continues to be accepted as justification for expansion of federal powers, then the Constitution will become meaningless.
And no one is saying that the elderly and poor should not be taken care of. I support SERVE and the poor through my church. But it should not be the job of Big Brother to keep a paternalistic watch over all of us.
How much of that national power do you think has to do with the size of the country, being a super power, the increased technology during the 20th century?
Would it even be possible to keep things simple and confined to communities and states in today’s times? I don’t see how.
You raise a good point, MH. Perhaps the government does require certain national powers. But rather than changing the constitution to enumerate these powers, which requires a strong national consensus, the federal government seizes power through questionable interpretations of the constitution. This has given rise to the fear and distrust that breeds right-wing extremist groups.
I was pleased to see an op-ed in today’s Washington Post that raises strong questions about the constitutionality of the current healthcare reform: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082103033.html
The difference is that Bush brought us into a war that had NOTHING to do with the attack on the twin towers, have I ever called him a Nazi, no, nor would I ever. There are a host of mis-steps the past administration reaped upon this country. FISA violations, torture, executive order after executive order, etc etc etc. A war that was NEVER included in the budget but always paid for in a “suppliment” expenditure. BTW, how much HAS that war cost us, and not just money, but lives? Now, over health care, people go freakin’ bonkers and feel the need to be armed at town hall meetings? HUH? If President Obama took HALF the constitutional liberties that Bush did, I can’t imagine what the response would be?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/19/AR2009081902961.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
Rush is more than an entertainer in my opinion. Didn’t Michael Steele, head of the RNC, recently apologize to Rush.
Local issues are important Lafayette, this was not intended to “upstage” the other threads.
No, but on this blog some other frequent posters called many people Nazis – and at the time there was absolutely no shock, or outcry, over it. The silence spoke volumes to me. There should have been a loud outcry over those people saying that repeatedly. Why were their posts not condemmed like they should have been? That’s probably what I and others would like to know. Now there’s this huge outcry over Obama being compared to Hitler. How is that different than Bush (who was compared to Hitler by some frequent posters on this blog) or Corey Stewart, or any of the other people these posters have labeled as Nazis? Where was the outrcy then?
And I’m not saying it is right to compare Obama to Hitler either. I’m just saying the other times were equally wrong, but there was absolutely NO condemmation of those posts. Yes, the blog isn’t censored – but if people had disagreed with those posts I’m sure there would have been lots of disavowing or condemming of those posts. Instead, there was silence, or some posters actually said they agreed with them. In my opinion, none of these comparisons were valid, and everyone should have been equally upset with all of them – but most shockingly to me, they weren’t.
I don’t think anyone on the blog has compared Obama to Hitler, at least not to my knowledge.
It has to be pretty egregious for me to correct. Yes, I have done it but not over Hitler and Nazis.
Furthermore, what I have said to people behind the scenes is exactly that–behind the scenes. No one wants a blog that has to be baby sat 24/7. Anyone who was offended by statements made on the blog should have spoke to that person right there on the spot. Anyone of the regulars has as much right to tell someone to knock it off as the next guy. In fact, most of you all have.
I make no apologies for not censoring in the past. (nor for censoring in the future if the need arises)
Elena, Steele did apologize to Rush. I was disappointed that he did that.
I hear what you are saying and I don’t fault you on this topic. However, when I spoke out against people on this blog comparing people in the county who were for some form of the resolution (mostly the CURRENT form of the resolution) to Nazis, all I got back was that I was incorrect in complaining about that – and the people who did the comparisons were correct.
When at the top of the thread it is said “As a Jew I am offended, greatly, that people would compare, very specifically, a debate on health care to Nazism”.
Well, I would say the same thing then about how I felt as a Jew when I and others were labeled as Nazis by some subset of posters here (and that was in direct response to my saying I only agreed with the CURRENT form of the resolution). Then, other people here defended those posters and one had the nerve to tell me that I didn’t understand the history of the Holocaust!
That’s not to say there wasn’t some behind the scenes outcry that I wasn’t privy to, but I just find it interesting there’s now this big “not behind the scenes” outcry about the case with Obama. I agree with MH – I haven’t seen anyone on this blog make that comparison.
Anyway, that’s what I was trying to point out, but it’s good to know there was some behind the scenes things said about those posts – as anyone that knows people who have been affected by the Holocaust (as I do know people who have lost relatives in the Holocaust) knows that claiming things going on here in the county is like what the Nazis did, or specific people in the county to Hitler, or Obama to Hitler for that matter – knows it is a night and day comparison. I just think it is funny that at one time that comparison was actually applauded on this blog, by several posters, in addition to the ones that actually made the comparison. That is the main point I was making.
I figure if a thread on this blog is going to condemn comparisons to Hitler – then I can complain about comparisons to Hitler that were made by some posters on this very blog. At the time the point was made in defense of those posts, by several other posters – that we must remember what happened in the Holocaust – because it could happen right here in PWC! What a totally ridiculous, preposterous statement! I would have expected a very loud outcry and condemnation of those posts – but surprisingly there was instead a rather shrill defense of them!
Whatever, it will be interesting to see if in the future there’s no more of these kinds of comparisons to Nazis and Hitler, by people who are comparing apples to oranges. Unless people are being led to their deaths, people have no business making that comparison. The idea that “well, even though it’s not happening now it COULD happen” is beyond preposterous!
Kelly3046, does your statement:
“And no one is saying that the elderly and poor should not be taken care of. I support SERVE and the poor through my church. But it should not be the job of Big Brother to keep a paternalistic watch over all of us.”
mean that you would like to put an end to Medicare and Medicaid and just rely on religious institutions and charities to treat all the millions of elderly and poor without other health insurance? I am just wondering whether that is what you mean by “Big Brother.”
Gainesville,
I did counter that I did not believe anyone in PWC was a Nazi.
Gainesville,
The issue is that during the most hateful times in PWC, when Board members felt they were being bullied, it WAS bad, very bad. Now it seems easy to have amnesia and not remember how awful it was back then, when people were afraid to say they were against the resolution for fear of being villifed on Greg’s blog. We were living in an atmosphere of hate,it was all over Greg’s blog. It was demonstrated through political mailers with pictures of latino’s crawling over border fences. It was demonstrated through Greg’s blog that scapegoated latino’s for MRSA, the housing crisis, etc etc. It has been demonstrated through organizations like the ADL that extreme immigration rhetoric has been accepted as mainstream and we know who is at the recieving end of that hate, yes, you guessed it, latino’s. Don’t beleive me, visit http://www.adl.org and see for yourself.
@Elena
So that gives a certain small group of individuals on the blog permission to call others Nazi’s, racists and bigots? There was plenty of hate on this blog, also. Some comments about a picture of Greg’s children making someone “sick to their stomach” comes to mind.
There are some on this blog that were bulling others just as much as those on the “dark screen” that you obsess so much about. I remember a certain poster telling someone to “crawl back to their scumhole” and was CHEERED ON by other regular posters. If someone disagreed with this little group, they were ganged up on and attacked. The term “Nazi” and “racist” was thrown around so much that it lost all meaning.
You wish, no one gives or gets permission on this blog.
Furthermore, you need to back up your statement with quotes. You could say that I spit on the president it is up to me to prove I didn’t? I don’t think so. If someone says something you take issue with, tell them. I have seen you in action and you are quite capable of taking care of yourself.
Actually I don’t think you will find that many people on this blog who all agree with each other to have groups ganging up and bullying.
However what I have noticed is that you have a particular beef with one of our contributors. It is obvious. If you have specific complaints, feel free to email me at [email protected].