For weeks now there has been concern that outside agitators have been attending townhall meetings, not to obtain information, but to disrupt and bully the individuals holding the meetings. Other attendees who might want to learn more about healthcare proposals or various other plans being considered for legislation are also bullied and talked over top of and drowned out.
Many folks have argued that this is not happening or have attempted to justify the conduct of various people who have been been captured on film by the media. Randall Terry is a professional outside agitator who showed up at Congressman Jim Moran’s town hall meeting last night.
Congressman Moran had a difficult time even talking with the crowd. He insisted that those from the 8th Congressional district be let in first. That seems fair enough. About 3000 people got inside the meeting hall in Reston. He had invited former DNC chair Howard Dean to his meeting as a special guest. It is doubtful that he got a word in edgewise either.
Chief outside aggitator dissident was Randall Terry making a horse’s rear end out of himself as usual. This guy shows up everywhere to shoot off his big mouth and to make a fool of himself. He has been at the Terry Schivo nursing home, he followed President Obama to Notre Dame, and now he wants to stalk Jim Moran it seems. His main theme still seems to be abortion but I think he chose the wrong venue for protest.
According to politico.com:
[W]hen Dean took the stage, he was met by a deafening din of boos and catcalls, which pushed Moran over the edge.
“I’m sorry but I can’t even hear the governor and I’m sitting next to him. There are hundreds of people in this gymnasium who can’t hear him because of a handful of people,” Moran said. “These folks are not from the 8th District, they don’t really belong here, and I’m going to ask them to leave.”
Protestor Randall Terry, the founder of anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, who had warned local media he planned to make a ruckus, particularly infuriated the congressman with his screaming accusations that Dean was a “baby killer.”
Moran offered Terry five minutes of floor time to ask a question in exchange for quiet, but Terry refused and was muscled out of the meeting, as the crowd chanted, “Kick him out.”
Here is a brief video of the crowd behavior last night.
Finally Congressman Moran was able to hold a 45 minute session where he and Howard Dean tried to brief the crowd:
He also sought to explain what he called “myths” about the bill, including the rumor that the bill would fund death panels encouraging ailing elderly patients to consider assisted suicide.
“Nothing could be further from the truth,” Moran said.
“Liar, liar, liar,” a crowd member screamed.
This is not civilized behavior. How does anyone expect to find out about anything? How many would be comfortable attending a meeting with some of these thugs like Randall Terry?
firedoglake and notlarrysabato both have video of the Moran Townhall meeting.
I have a suggestion: Read the bill, and that goes for the public as well as congress! I read a section on grants for nursing education because a rumor had it that the government would pay for people’s degree. In other words, free. Not so. For one the hospital or nursing organization has to be labor union supported just to qualify for the grant, and it is a grant to be payed back to the government in full by the applicant, not free education. The other interesting point is that the applicants should represent the demographics of the patients. I looked but I didn’t see any fine print that stated this held true for all but white communities, but somehow I get the feeling that is the case! So take the time to investigate those claims for yourself, and the hell with the town hall brawls.
BTW, here’s a quote from your friends at the dark screen: “Then there were the Obama minions handing out a couple thousand pre-printed signs supporting his health care program sponsored by Organizing for America, an Obama political action group.” I’m just mentioning this to show balanced information relative to the ‘outside agitators’ reference in the post. Both sides are guilty!
“We won’t/don’t pay for murder”
But we already do, our tax dollars indirectly murder many different people, in many different ways all over the world. You just don’t notice it until it effects you personally.
In Pakistan last month there was a false rumor that a group of Pakistani Christians had desecrated the Koran and as the rumor spread, riots ensued and Churches were burned. Christian families were killed and burned alive. Voices of reason in the community were drowned out by the mob who preferred a lie over the truth to justify a deep desire to hold someone to blame for all their troubles, to justify killing anyone.
Is it so different here now? Most of this anger seems to spark from false rumors, yet any time someone starts to explain, they are shouted down. How many months of this are we going to go through before the protesters start speaking through their hands? And then what? they’ll accuse the police who stop them of being a Liberal Suppression force? Will you shoot police officers who don’t support your perception of what’s happening?
The problem is that no one can be believed anymore. Those speaking all have an agenda to promote. Politics as usual.
It’s pretty obvious that Randall Terry and his minions don’t live in Moran’s district. It is pretty obvious what Terry’s intent is, especially since we know his tactics and because he announced his intentions ahead of time.
SA, I don’t think that misbehavior is excusable regardless of who starts it. I actually can’t see any point in having townhall meetings if this is what is going to happen.
You probably have the best suggestion–that being read it for yourself. That’s probably the only way one is going to find out anything.
Randall Terry had no business going to that meeting and he had no business disrupting it. I doubt if he would have disrupted Frank Wolf’s town hall meeting.
I just think there is a new brand of politics out there that I feel is contemptible. I just saw a 3-4 minute clip of this meeting on the foxy channel. I believe it was the Washington Times reporter speaking with the foxy host. No mention of Randall Terry.
I don’t see why anyone else should even in there. I don’t know how the audience was screened. The audience should live in the district. The minute you get some sort of ID involved, someone will scream bloody murder about that.
I’m not supporting anyone’s disruption of meetings, but you can’t hand out signs and expect people to just passively hold them up for all to see. It isn’t a campaign debate, although each meeting is pretty one-sided. Stop the yelling, and don’t allow signs. One speaker at a time, and throw out those who break the rules, and maybe we can have some progress. However, every time you try to enforce rules now days everyone starts with the freedom of speech BS that turns every event into a circus!
But it’s ok for Obama to plant his town halls with staffers? Like the one in Arlington not too long ago? I don’t remember seeing a topic on that…
Just pointing out the hypocrisy.
I know someone who went, a very strong conservative opponent of the plan, and she said they had to write down her name and address, but made no mention of being requested for ID, so I assume it didn’t happen. I can ask, but I am pretty sure she would have mentioned it. This is key issue for her and has been one for years. We have been arguing about it long before Obama ran. She was very upset at the bad behavior of many of her fellow opponents. It certainly didn’t do her any good, since she was trying to learn the arguments of a representative she opposes vehemently on this question. She complained about Moran speaking too long, but had good things to say about Dean’s approach to the crowd.
There has to be a way to enforce no shouting and no violent interruptions of other speakers in these meetings by rules of order so that everyone can be heard. I don’t have any problem with mobs of opponents screaming at each other outside, that’s called demonstrators and counterdemonstrators. But free expression for both sides is actually blocked when nobody can hear or respond. I don’t know where the authority comes from or how it would be dispensed. I don’t necessarily want the rigidity of the famous 13-hour, was it?, BOCS meeting in PWC, because there is supposed to be more debate at these things, but somewhere there is a middle ground. We know now that any of these meetings anywhere in the country are going to be disrupted this way for the sake of disruption, period, as a plan to derail this thing. It has nothing to do with making reasoned arguments. This is so disturbing on such a life and death issue.
The requirements of free speech under the First Amendment refer to getting one’s opinion out and having an exchange of ideas. That was precisely what was not happening here for everyone because a minority was making it impossible for both those they agree with (like my friend) and those they disagree with, to conduct the meeting. If there isn’t time to hold a meeting for as many hours as it takes, then maybe there could be a lottery to establish questioners to go first, then fill it out with others as time remains. I mean a real lottery, with no weight given to a side. As for the screamers, let them play in the parking lot.
SA, I agree.
Mando, now do you really think that Obama planted ‘his’ people in there? That seems like a stretch. Who knows who all decides to go in there. Signs? Weren’t there a couple of boxes of signs at the Tea Party/pep rally out at McCoart building on July 4? Sure there were. I don’t think that McCain, Romney, or any of the other heir apparents of the Republican party planted those or the people down there.
Usually someone who is with some grass roots organization brings a box of signs for people to hold if they want to. I don’t think matching signs is much of an indicator.
However, I will back up and agree with SA in comment #7. The meetings would be more productive without signs and without everyone squaring off.
Thanks Leila for the information. I agree that the screaming and yelling must be kept outside. I don’t know how to enforce it either. I find the entire situation regardless of where it takes place just sad…a sad state of affairs that our country has come to this.
I think that is what had me just so filled with remorse yesterday with the passing of Senator Kennedy. I think he might be the last of an era where you could fight like hell on the floor of the senate and then go out for a drink later. That theme kept resounding yesterday. I really don’t think the ‘youngsters’ in politics are able to do that nowadays.
I believe the topic at hand was Randall Terry’s and others behavior that was disruptive. Holding a sign is NOT distruptive, holding a sign does not prevent others from engaging in civil debate. Congress passed an 800 billion dollar prescription drug plan that I saw NO outrage over. Why?
People are making stuff up, that simple. DEBATE THE ISSUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop using mobb tactics!!!!!
Slow shared a great piece of information which I found interesting. Apparently Senator Kennedy had a health care plan written in his committee that would cost half of what the house passed. What was the difference?
Post the rules and throw the assholes out if they break the rules. If it’s good enough for the BOCS, it should be good enough for Congress People.
Remember, we’re not even allowed to clap at BOCS meetings.
Oh well looks like the powers that be will have to debate this comprehensive reform at length enouigh for people to digest the ideas, before it will be accepted, rather than being able to complete a 2-3 week beer hall putsch (sic) and then ram it down America’s throat.
I can live with that.
I’ve had way too much government by the ruling class, for the ruling class.
I think this guy’s a dummy. He’s equivalent to a grown man who believes in Santa Claus.
HOWEVER, as is seen on the video, there are many in America who agree with his point of view, feel that no one in power is representing them, and they should be heard rather than dismissed out of hand. I sympathize.
And so it should be. Before this bill gets passed every American should understand what’s in it.
Too often our so-called leaders pass bills before giving the people a chance to understand them. It’s a deliberate strategy. It bothers me a lot more than the sight of citizens demonstrating/yelling at public meetings does.
Did Terry have a right to be there? As much right as the illegal immigrant residents of PWC had to speak at Citizens’ Time a couple of years ago. They were allowed to say their piece. Every 14 year old who could string three sentences together in English was allowed to get up and lecture the good rednecks of PWC about cultural diversity and tolerance.
Why is that something we should sit through, but this guy’s agenda is not?
Some argue that this guy’s part of a right-wing strategy to stifle debate and discussion. Maybe. I’ll tell you what, I prefer a campaign of standing and shouting at meetings to the 1993 approach of soliciting billions from lobbyists and running inane TV ads.
Pelosi, Obama, and the Democrats were very deliberately planning to vote and sign “comprehensive” reform into law before the rest of us could figure out what they’re doing. I’ll reject that every time.
Health care reform is not implicitly good. Step back, take a deep breath, and prepare to discuss particular measures logically.
A Town Hall where you invite someone else to speak about the importance of health care reform, while you just say “and it’s important” and “we must get this done now” is intellectually bankrupt and deserves to be interrupted.
In the spirit of debate and discussion, let me pass along a few new rumors that I heard.
Supposedly Congress is planning to rewrite portions of the bill in Ted Kennedy’s honor. They are going to allow hospitals to take uninsured patients in need of long term care out on a car ride, submerge the car in a lake, and watch the patient drown. It will be a cost-effective measure; some of the “cash for clunkers” cars will be the ones used. It will be necessary that the health care provider call the police and tell them of the submerged car within 24 hours, and make a statement to the effect “I was dazed and confused but as soon as I realized what had happened, I called the police”.
I also heard that the mistresses of sitting US Senators and State Governors will be able to obtain 100% federally Funded abortions – the Edwards Amendment it’s been called.
I heard that circumcision will be mandated on all adult males under 75 years of age. And castration on all males 75 and over. I also heard that there is a provision to perform female circumcision at taxpayer’s expense on all US girls at age 14.
And finally, I heard that medical screening for tuberculosis will be outlawed in the US as tests conducted so far indicate racial bias on the medical community’s part. Latinos are being diagnosed with tuberculosis disproportionately. Until we can infect enough non-Latinos with tuberculosis – which is a seperate effort described in page 11.317 of the bill – Section 2446.a.29.iii – we need to end this discrimination.
I still hope town hall meetings could be a place for
learning about a complex subject that will impact many of us
and where reasoned and civil discussion and debate might
take place. What we have now, in too many cases, is karaoke
night for loud mouthed crackpots. Years of playing poker
has taught me that anytime another player goes postal and
wants to trash the table – they have a lousy hand.
Rick, the immigrants were invited by Corey Stewart and they came to give their opinion. They behaved inside the chambers.
Randall Terry was there for the purpose of disruption. He said that is why he is there. He also was not invited.
I don’t think there is a way to determine if people agreed with him or disagreed with him. Where are the metrics? Regardless of how they felt, who wants some temper tantrum going on during a meeting. Who were those people chanting ‘throw him out?’
I see a huge difference. Rick, that was too easy.
Good point, Poor Richard.
And good manners should not be a thing of the past. This is all about manners and civilized behavior. I am not seeing either.
On the larger issue of health care reform and Obama and the Democrats :
This is why I regard the whole thing as a corrupt joke.
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obama-lauds-pharmaceutical-deal-2009-06-20.html
As far as I can determine, the main inflated cost in medical care in this country is the price of prescription drugs. Our Congress, in the service of lobbyists, has locked the American consumer into paying ten times more than citizens of other countries – such as Canada – do for the same drugs. We make them here, the American consumer subsidizes development costs – under penalty of law if they try to buy the drugs from Canada or elsewhere – and then the rest of the world, whose governments are not beholden to American pharmaceutical companies by way of government corruption, gets them at a fairer market value.
Totally sick, corrupt situation.
Well, guess who Obama’s in bed with. Which explains why i haven’t heard a peep from anyone during this ruckus about lowering drug prices. http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obama-lauds-pharmaceutical-deal-2009-06-20.html
The pharmaceutical companies, for the price of 80 billion dollars, get to help craft a new “comprehensive” policy which will ensure the continuation of the above, except for senior citizens. And the insurance companies – the heroes of yesteryear in containing costs – are now the “villain” rather suddenly.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. “Comprehensive health care reform” is a joke.
Oppose this corruption by any means necessary, that’s how I feel about it.
We had a bad President for 8 years, and the one we have now isn’t looking so hot to me either.
It looks like some of you all fell for the fake post over on the dark screen. What a joke. The guy watched the same footage as everyone else did and put his own spin on the details. Mr. Horn probably doesn’t exist, excpet in the mind of the Large Red Speck.
How did that Connolly town hall meeting go? I expected a full report on that one also. I feel confident that all democrats hit each other over the head with UPS boxes. Come on Large Red Speck, where is the spin on this one?
Note:
– The term “outside aggitators” has a harsh tone with those of
us who grew up in the South 40-50 years ago. Almost every day
some local or state official would declare “our negroes were fine
until outside aggitators started stirring them up”. Ouch.
– Extremist of the right and left have used the same staged
theatre methods to “advance” their causes, but far right wing nuts
are the current masters. Look up Manassas on U-Tube and you get
the gun loving open-carry gang and the 9500 Liberty Street crowd.
Both groups were seeking self-serving attention and in the process
unfairly damaged the City of Manassas.
Don’t forget MSF and those loony anarchists.
A Duke University professor’s take on HR3200:
http://www.classicalideals.com/HR3200.htm
What was the quote from that one lady to the Supervisors?
Oh, yeah, it was “you all can kiss my …”
Slow, I have to disagree with you on that one also. In fact, I was rather disgusted that at least one supervisor had to act like such a wus over that woman. One woman out of how many speakers said ‘ass.’ BFD.
Is ‘kiss my ass’ poor form in public? yes. Do I think she needs to be drawn, quartered, and stricken from the record? NO.
Overall, nearly all the speakers on both sides were polite and followed the rules. That is sort of amazing considering the citizens’ time lasted 13 hours,.
Poor Richard, yea, it does have that nasty ring to it, doesn’t it? Was I dating myself using that expression?
@Rick Bentley
I agree with Rick regarding the large cost of prescription drugs contributing to the high cost of health care. The drugs become a valuable commodity throughout the world only after they have been put through an FDA test regimen that proves them to be safe and effective. It is therefore not unreasonable to pass legislation to require drug companies to sell prescription drugs to Americans at the same cost as those sold to foreign countries.
“It is therefore not unreasonable to pass legislation to require drug companies to sell prescription drugs to Americans at the same cost as those sold to foreign countries.”
Please. No more regulation. De-regulation is what you want. Regulations are why we CAN’T buy drugs at a the market price.
Kelly, I will agree with you on that.
I can understand cutting extremely poor nations like Africa and some of the AIDs drugs a break. However, the cost can be shared with other countries with normal standards of living.
@Mando
I do not want regulation any more than you do. But when my tax dollars subsidize the development of new drugs, then I expect to pay the same rate for them as non-Americans. I do not favor cost regulation, just regulation to ensure that we get to pay the same rate.
Off topic why is anyone hanging information/solicitation on a US mailbox at someone’s home. It is against the law!! This is what I saw today on a few houses on Woodstock. I did see a lady and child delivering bags over there this morning. I’m really surprised that someone didn’t know the law regarding mailboxes. I’ve had kids deliver information before and they we instructed by me and their group leaders..Do NOT touch the mailbox. The group of out of town kids followed the instuctions exactly.
What about the RULE OF LAW??
Chris, rule of law applies only when it isn’t you.
Kelly, how are we subsidizing new drugs with tax dollars? I thought the pharmacy companies took on that responsibility.
“But when my tax dollars subsidize the development of new drugs, then I expect to pay the same rate for them as non-Americans.”
There’s the beauty. Paying the fair-market price means you’re no longer subsidizing. But as long as politicians and drug companies are in cahoots, that’s not happening.
Seriously, given the profitability of pharmaceuticals, why are we forced to pay for R&D?
“how are we subsidizing new drugs with tax dollars? I thought the pharmacy companies took on that responsibility.”
I think I just answered that, but by paying above the fair market price (paid in other countries). Legislation that has taken away our ability to shop around.
Supposedly some of the rarer drugs cost a fortune to research/develop and often years to accomplish this. It seems to me that is what the stock holders are for.
Once they go outside this country, there should be no price breaks for anyone other than extremely poor nations.
I still don’t see how tax dollars are subsidizing drug development costs.
“I still don’t see how tax dollars are subsidizing drug development costs.”
Tax dollars aren’t. Regulating whom we can buy from is. There’s more then one way to skin a cat.
From the USPS website..
3.1.3 Use for Mail
Except under 3.2.11, Newspaper Receptacle, the receptacles described in 3.1.1 may be used only for matter bearing postage. Other than as permitted by 3.2.10, Delivery of Unstamped Newspapers, or 3.2.11, no part of a mail receptacle may be used to deliver any matter not bearing postage, including items or matter placed upon, supported by, attached to, hung from, or inserted into a mail receptacle. Any mailable matter not bearing postage and found as described above is subject to the same postage as would be paid if it were carried by mail.
http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/508.htm
@Mando
Actually tax dollars ARE subsidizing drug development costs. There are substantial tax deductions and tax credits available to the drug companies for R&D. There are grants made by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) directly to companies. There are also many patents developed by universities and purchased by pharmaceuticals, which were developed based on research grants from the government.
Here is a quote from a linked NY Times article: http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~scotch/gerth.htm
“In a 1997 study commissioned by the National Science Foundation, C.H.I. looked at the most significant scientific research papers cited in medicine patents. It found that half the cited studies were paid for with United States public funds, primarily from government and academia; only medicine patents. It found that half the cited studies were paid for with United States public funds, primarily from government and academia; only 17 percent were paid for by industry. (The rest came from public and private foreign sources.)”
I doubt that much has changed in 10 years regarding university research, except that the researchers want a larger piece of the pie from the pharmaceuticals.
Thanks Chris. Does that mean we should expect to see the US marshalls rolling up in Westgate? Does the PO have its own cops for this type of violation?
Thanks Kelly. I guess that is distant tax money. On the other hand, we don’t get a line item veto on how we want our taxes spent. Think of the people who would have opted out of paying for the Iraq War. If we listen to one group of people, we must listen to everyone.
However, I do think other countries should be paying full price. Just doing that reduced our costs by alot.
Our town meeting is a lot more civilized than the one in Reston and we are probably discussing just as much, if not more, than we did.
@kelly
I stand corrected but not surprised. I tend to look more at the supply/demand side of things. Tax expert I am not.
So they got us coming and going.
One thing most people don’t understand is that drug prices in the US are kept at an (artificially) high rate during the term of drug’s patent, in theory to recoup the cost of the R&D for profitable drugs as well as the R&D for drugs with little profit potential. Once the patent expires, competition in the form of generics arises and sometimes the drug becomes OTC, in either case the price generally becomes more “affordable”. All in all, a pretty fair exchange I guess, given the extraordinary cost of R&D for drugs that work as well as those that don’t. The only time the process really gets bastardized is when those imbeciles on the Hill take suitcases of cash from the drug lobbyists and attorneys to enact “patent term extensions”. Look at the Federal Register and you will generally see several a year, yep, the best government money can buy.
“It is therefore not unreasonable to pass legislation to require drug companies to sell prescription drugs to Americans at the same cost as those sold to foreign countries.”
I want to stress that Obama is in the bag on this one. He took an 80 billion dollar pledge from the pharmaceutical companies in trade for any reimportation provisions. One of his advisors said “we won’t need reimportation” because in fantasy land, the cost savings from the rest of this “comprehensive” plan will save us so much money that we won’t even think of it.
Meanwhile in the real world that 80 billion will be recouped pretty quickly off the backs of working Americans. As it is now we spend 200 billion a year on drugs. It’ll be up to 300 billion in no time. the sky’s the limit, as long as important people’s palms are greased. and it’ll help that nice Mr. Obama be a political success!
So, on this basis, I am strongly against Obama and the Democrats on health care, regard them as dishonorable liars, and am sick to my stomach that after 8 years of one duplicitous lying President, America is stuck with more of the same.
My point is that much of the cost for R&D has already been funded by taxpayers, so the artificially high prices are unjustified. Taxpayers are being gouged twice for the same research.
And it’ll be three times over if Obama gets his way.
Kelly,
Did you express your outrage during the medicare prescription drug care plan debate?