On August 25, Anti-bvbl had a post on students who had spelled out racial slurs and statements using sod up at Sinclair Elementary School. (See Link) Since that day, the 6 students who were involved in this incident have been long term suspended or expelled for a calendar year. On Wednesday, 4 of these 6 students will appeal the decision of the School Board to have them removed from school for a year.
According to the Washington Post:
Officials said that six boys used pieces of landscaping sod to form a swastika and spell out “KKK” and “white power” in a parking lot at Sinclair Elementary School in the Manassas area. They have been suspended from school since the Aug. 25 incident, said Roach, whose 14- and 16-year-old sons were among the group.
A committee of three school board members is to decide in a closed meeting Wednesday whether to follow the recommendation of another school system panel and expel them for the rest of the year, said Roach, who called that punishment “unjust.”
Four of the students were arrested and charged with vandalism, said Sgt. Kim Chinn, a Prince William police spokeswoman, but she couldn’t say which ones. Roach said she didn’t think any of the six had been charged
At some point, we have to ask ourselves what the point is of a year long expulsion. The students were not on school time. Sure they vandalized a school parking lot. If we look at time, cost and effort to repair their damages, unless the grass was killed, it was an easy fix. We also need to look at the impact of keeping 6 kids out of school for a year.
The words were stupid and inappropriate. Kids do things like that. They also say bad words and spell out countraband on calculators. Some even make Elmo say bad words. Are these things worth losing a year of education? I am not so sure PWC School Board isn’t on overkill on this one.
[UPDATE: 10/29/09 insidenova.com]
Four Stonewall Jackson High School students who admitted to creating racist symbols with sod in the parking lot of a Manassas area middle school (sic) were expelled for at least the rest of this semester after their appeals were heard by the Prince William County School Board Disciplinary Committee on Wednesday.
Correction: The incident took place at Sinclair Elementary School.
.
Thanks, for the clarification, Leila. I thought that was an old story and didn’t look at it. Unfortunately, the sound was not working through the whole video clip. I know one child claims to be remorseful and was upset that they couldn’t attend Homecoming, but on their FaceBook page they use the N-word. When I see that, then I think expulsion is certainly within the realm of possibilities for punishment. Then another one of the guilty parties came along told him “real mean don’t go to Homecoming”. This kind of crap out of their mouths and from their fingertips on the keyboard make me think they did NOT learn a damn thing. sigh
I would not want to be having to rule on expulsion. This is troubling to me because I know a couple of the “players” having had to deal with them personally. I do keep telling myself they are kids, and kids do stupid things. I’m just not sure what category the “Reverse Crop Circles” fall into.
The way things are going in our country right now, I think we should have a zero tolerance for hate speech. Let those kids enroll at another school, but there need to be consequences for using hate to intimidate people. It wasn’t that long ago that murder was a common form of political expression for the KKK. Hate crimes are on the rise again, and many of the perpetrators are teens.
They cannot enroll in another school in the county.
I don’t see it as a hate crime. I see it as kids acting stupid. If they did it during school time on the school’s watch, that is one thing.
I think a lot of community service would be a good thing. i don’t think that being out of school for a year is going to stop the use of the N word. (the real N word)
Here are some tests: what would have happened to the kid if he said the N word at school in front of people? Not much. What would have happened if he had written it on a piece of paper? Not much. Laying it out in sod? a year’s expulsion? Disproportionate!
Justin, we still have free speech in this country, regardless of how hideous that speech is.
The only way any of this becomes the school’s business is because it was done on one of their properties.
For the record, I am not saying these kids don’t need a good arse kicking. they do and it sounds like Mrs. Roach was all over this. Good for her. But a year out of school? We want to educate kids, not deprive them of education unless they have are a safety hazard.
PWCS tolerates some really nasty behavior. This was public so they are going to be Billy Bad Ass over it.
I’m for an expulsion. The act of laying the sod all over the parking lot is out of control. For it to be something this offensive makes the act somewhat more aggressive, makes it a bit worse than if it said ‘school pride” or something.
We have zero tolerance on drugs – if some kid is caught with drugs in school – and for every 1 who is, 1000 aren’t – my stepdaughter told me that Stonewall Jackson High is a pharmacy – they can’t enroll in school in the county and their parents have to find a private school or tutoring, a major headache. I believe a zero tolerance for vandalism on this level is appropriate too.
Expel them. Otherwise, do we want to send the message that anyone can do this kind of thing and get by with a slap on the wrist?
I’ve heard of kids getting expelled for much less than what these kids did.
The kids can do home schooling or go to private school for a year. They won’t lose out on their education.
@Moon-howler
“what would have happened to the kid if he said the N word at school in front of people? Not much. What would have happened if he had written it on a piece of paper? Not much.”
I would think detention. There is a difference here, though, because when you say something like that or write it, only certain people read or hear what you write or say. It does matter that this was a public act.
What would have happened if this had all happened 100 yards further down the road? What if the kids had swiped the neighbor’s sod and done the same thing out in front of the school?
Also, I am not sure the word expulsion is being used right. I don’t know if the kids are facing real expulsion or long term suspension. There is a difference. A student who has been expelled has to reapply for admission. It is not an automatic readmission after a year.
I think that this is much stiffer punishment than usual. I am looking at cost, damage, time to fix, where it happened and that sort of thing. Also, the N word was not used out in front of Sinclair.
I don’t know…expulsion is a stiff penalty. There is no guaranteed readmission.
how else do we teach the youth Personal Responsibility?? What they did was wrong, and a message needs to be sent that we do not tolerate this type of behavior. Do they want us to think that they did not know the symbolism of what they were doing?
All too often when something wrong is done, we look the other way, and want to bend the rules that we have created. Example, in Delaware, you had that kid that brought the boy scout knife/fork/spoon to school, and he was expelled due to a zero tolerance policy, but nobody was happy that he was expelled – why have a zero tolerance policy if it is not enforced -personally, I do not like zero tolerance policies because there are always valid reasons for some actions.
Wonder if there had been problems with these kids before and this was the last straw for the school system. Could be they’d been given detention and punishments prior to this and that figured into their suspensions. Who knows I guess. The reality is though, their gooses were cooked as soon as it became a news story on the t.v. stations. The schools and PWCPD had to do something that would send a strong message that hate speech and vandalism aren’t tolerated. If these young men had spelled out something that had nothing to do with a hate group, they wouldn’t have gotten the media attention and their punishment probably wouldn’t have included suspension. Still would’ve been charged with vandalism though, and rightly so. The moment they invoked the name of a hate group that has a terrible history in our country, they opened themselves up to whatever punishment comes their way, as far as I’m concerned. These kids wanted to create a stir and get some attention, well they sure did, and now they are paying the consequences. Hopefully they’ll learn something from it, but I doubt it if their parents make excuses for them and reinforce the idea that the punishment is too harsh.
Expelled for one year doesn’t always mean they can’t go back to school for one year. The schools can suspend all or part of the punushment. Our neighbor was expelled for one year for multiple fights. The schools kept him out for about a month or two and then temporarily suspended his expulsion for the rest of the year and he went back to school that same year.
The schools told him if he screwed up and got in trouble within that year, he was automatically expelled for the remainder of his one year, like people who get early parole. Unfortunately, he did not take advantage of the his second chance and got into another altercation with a teacher, so the one year suspension went back into effect immediately.
So maybe the schools could do something like that. Expell them for a year, and give them a chance to suspend that expulsion and come back to school. If they screw up, they are out. If they can walk a straight and narrow path, they can stay in school knowing that one year expulsion is hanging over their head. That gives them a chance to prove they have reformed and get their degree while keeping them under constant watch.
PH _ I totally agree on nixing the zero tolerance policies. School principals should be able to use their noggins to determine the difference between little cub scout boy brings his camping utensils with his lunch or girl brings motrin in pocket for cramps as opposed to gang boy brings his switchblade to scare someone on the bus or boys sells doobies on the playground.
What are we saying to principals that we don’t allow them the discretion to make judgement calls? Fairfax county had problems with their zero tolerance policies on marijuana when a boy committed suicide. Although zero tolerance sounds good in principle (we woill not tolerate drugs, bullying or weapons), sometimes life isn’t that black and white. Give the administrators the power to make judgement calls and have faith that they know what they are doing and don’t have to kick a girl out because she had a motrin in her for her cramps.
IWK hit the nail on the head. Were there prior problems and was this the last straw? If yes, then I support expulsion. If these were relatively trouble-free kids, then I thik it is overkill. Do I think they deserve punishment? Yes. I am not suggesting they get off.
Expulsion is the worst punishment a school has. It is reserved for those who bring in drugs, weapons or harm others in the building or on buses. (and there are other reasons also) I think the punishment is disporportionate to the crime, at least from information given.
I don’t care much for absolutes. The incident with the swiss army cub scout knife was stupid also. Zero tolerance creates situations like that…where no common sense comes into play.
Having said that, don’t think for a minute that zero policy exists in PWC. It doesn’t. A high school kid might get expelled for a joint in the bathroom. A middle school kid might…emphasis MIGHT get 10 days out. Both kids would have an expulsion hearing but the outcomes will probably be very different.
sorry I type too fast, punishment not punushment and will not woill
Maybe I should go back to school and get myself re-edu-ma-cated
suspended for a year is way overboard. Send them to visit ADL and the Holocaust Memorial Museum!
Isn’t this what the original post said when this happened:
“On the other hand, hate sentiments, regardless of who places them, cannot just be dismissed as kids playing a prank. ”
Which I agree with, so why all of the sudden is being suspended for the year too much or overboard? For some reason I have a feeling that if all of these kids were Caucasian it would be a just punishment (which by the way I think it is a just punishment). You have to let these kids know that this type of stuff is flat out wrong. Smacking them on the hand won’t send a message to the other students who may have thought it was funny…
Teaching tolerance is not just lip service, it requires being TAUGHT!
hello,
I believe people are saying the punishment should fit the crime, no on is no consequence, just what would be reasonable.
I do agree with you though Elena, part of their punishment should also include a trip to the Holocaust Memorial Museum…
I think a year long suspension fits the crime 100%. How else are you going to send a message to other young people that this type of thing need to be taken very seriously. It’s not just about punishing these idiots, it’s about sending a message to the other kids that this won’t be tolerated, at all. Or you will get suspended for a year (at the least).
Some on the original post were also talking about it being a ‘hate crime’. I think that could be looked at as well…
A Parent of one of the kids came on this blog when the incident had just happened. That parent said she had taken her son to the Holocaust Museum last spring, and planned to have him go again only with a Holocaust survivor the second time. So, I’m not sure a visit would be the answer it MIGHT help some, but I’m not sure it would make any kind of real impact on all six boys.
hello,
All of the kids were not caucasian. One boy is bi-racial. I don’t think the boys went out that night to make there reverse crop circles. I think they were roaming the streets of WG/Sudley in the middle of the night, bored, and nothing better to do(in their minds) and just decided to be “creative”. I do think these six need to be held accountable for their actions. I hope they all have learned a lesson from this incident, but I’m far from convinced of that.
“suspended for a year is way overboard. Send them to visit ADL and the Holocaust Memorial Museum!”
I’m getting visions of Eric Cartman, bored and distratcted, mumbling out “I’m sorry Principal Victoria, what i did was wrong”. I’m also flashing to the South Park episode about the “Death Camp of Tolerance” – http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103981/
I am certainly not saying they need slapping on the wrist. I am saying they should not be expelled unless there are other circumstances. Expulsion in Prince William County means you are being removed permanently from Prince William County Schools. That has other implications as far as the state is concerned.
You can reapply for admission but they do not have to take you and the school board must approve the return. Suspension, long term suspension and other removal from school may look like an expulsion but it does not carry the same impact.
Other punishments that might be considered: Saturday suspension (kids go to school and then come in for 4 hours every Saturday), social probation (going to class only–no dances, sports, clubs after school), community service to the school where the damage was done…etc etc.
Schools must protect students and staff from those who are dangerous or those who continually disrupt instruction and the school day. I am all for expelling those who do those kinds of things.
We know more about this incident than when that first post went up August 25. I am one of those kinds of people who can and does change their mind if new information is learned. Sorry, Hello. I will always keep the option of change open if new information is revealed. I consider that a hallmark of keeping an open mind.
I am impressed that they got the swastika going in the right direction.
I had to haul a truckload of sod by hand onto my front lawn, and can attest that, the act of hauling sod, is punishment enough. So, if they were tasked for hauling the sod back to where it came from, that should suffice.
Breaking news…Teenagers being rebellious. Film at Eleven.
Yes, the kids should be punished but it should be treated as any other case of vandalism of similar damage. No special ‘hate crimes’ punishment for what they wrote. Have you people forgotten what teenagers are like? Singling out certain words for extra special punishment is practically inviting teenagers to engage in that conduct.
It would be another matter if this were done on a black family’s lawn with the clear intention to discriminate or if it was done by an adult, but this was clearly teenagers being hooligans. KKK or a swastika means as much to them as the anarchy symbol. They were looking for a way to show the world how bad-a$# they are and we should be smart enough not to fall for it.
Except that any vandalism of this magnitude and of this public nature would warrant expulsion, especially if the kids had prior history.
In other words, the punishment doesn’t necessarily reflect a hate crime. It’s not an unusual punishment, IMO.
Not really. They moved some sod that had not been planted yet around. They spelled with sod. PWCS didn’t even need to drag out the sand blaster.
If they had prior history, then that is another matter. Then the vandalism should have that thrown in with it. It shouldn’t matter if it is public or not. I don’t think moving sod warrants expulsion. I think I am finding myself more in agreement with anonymous (please choose a name so we can refer to you as something, even if it is anonymous4) than anyone.
Had they directed their swastikas at individuals, a synogogue or kkk at a black family, then it would be a police matter. I think the school system is being heavy handed and I think for the reason stated by Pinko. This was a public act that even made the helicopter news. They want to send a message.
Punishments need to be proportional to the crimes and deeds committed. These kids are getting the same punishment as the kid from Bull Run who brought a rifle to school on the last day. I see no comparison.
From another point of view: The job of schools is to educate kids. Anything else is frufru. If a kid endangers others or disrupts instruction continually I am all about throwing that kid out for the good of all. How does keeping 6 kids from getting an education curtail making racist remarks (or whatever we want to call those words.)? I don’t think it does. I think ignorance leads to the use of those things. So we add to ignorance to eradicate the use of KKK, white supremacy and swastikas? That is just screwed up.
Pinko, expulsion is a very unusual punishment. Check to see how many kids were expelled last year out of 73,000 students, roughly.
Suspension is not. My only hope is that the newspaper was using the wrong terms. Suspension has a start and stop date. Expulsion is forever unless you reapply and the school board lets you back in after x amount of time.
or another point of view – why is the school involved anyway? Yes, the crime was committed on school property (outside of school hours), but does the school’s go after other individuals who commit crimes outside of school? What if they did the same thing at in Lowe’s parking lot, would the school look to punish them then?
Excellent point, Pat. Why are they involved? It seems like a criminal matter to me. Let the cops and the court system handle it.
I wonder what would happen if it had happened at Lowes? Wouldn’t you love to call up someone and ask.
I agree completely, allow the punishment to fit the crime. I would use this as an opportunity to educate the kids about the holocaust and the crimes the KKK committed during its most influential period. Have them do a report, not a two pager, but a ten page report.
IMO this was a hate incident, and many hate incidents escalate into hate crimes.
If I’m reading the FBI’s statistics correctly, in 2007 Prince William County Police Dept dealt with 2 hate crimes. In the same year, Manassas had 6, Loudoun had 13 and the highest was Norfolk with 27. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_13va.htm
Are our statistics low because people are reporting hate incidents and people are getting consequences for them so they don’t escalate into crimes? Don’t know.
The school is involved because it was on school property, but yes, if something happens off property, for example, underage drinking, and the student comes back on school property, that is a school matter.
Here are the definitions of “hate incident” and “hate crime”:
http://www.mpac.org/hate-crime-prevention/what-is/
If they had made crop circles, it wouldn’t have been a hate incident.
Who did they direct it against? There isn’t really a victim here. I would agree if the incident were directed against a person(s) or property. (like a church or synogague)
I don’t know if it is a hate incident or not. I think saying it is, is a stretch. I think the school is asking for a lawsuit.
The school very much gets involved with internet incidents involving their students.
Sure, teenagers will spraypaint things they don’t understand sometimes. Really you have to be an old timer to really understand what the KKK stands for (or a right wing blogger from Manassas).
I don’t know hate crime legislation but I think that using hate speech to intimidate is in there. If not, or even so, the kids could be given a break I guess since it’s hard to prove an intent to intimdate if they don’t really know the history of racist murder and terrorism that the KKK represents.
On the other hand, Gospel Greg tried to scare up old people hysteria over a couple of spraypainted words that were probably done by kids who were equally ignorant of what MS-13 means. So why is widespread hysteria and an anti-immigrant extremist law drummed up in response to one kids graffitti, and yet nothing more than a slap on the wrist is expected for another’s?
What happened to the spray painters over in the city of manassas?
@Moon-howler
I know for a fact that one child has never been in trouble in school. They are recommending expulsion for these kids. I don’t see what good it will do to kick 6 children out of school for a mistake they made. They have done the court appointed community service and written a paper and also some met a survivor at the Halocaust museum. So now they are supposed to get no education? The kids are fully aware of the mistake they made and trust me they hear about it daily. None of what they have done was taken lightly. But we are human and people make mistakes. I’m sure we all have and some worst then this. I just don’t see expulsion as the answer. @ Lafayette- not sure if you have looked on facebook or not but those are not the only children that use the N word….that word is used way too often by most young adults. You shouldn’t just single out these six children. If you have children you should know because when I walk in that school that is all I hear.
They graduated from middle school and went to T.J.
“Zero tolerance” teaches children nothing more than to be appropriately contrite in order to get themselves out of trouble. Throwing everything under the zero-tolerance umbrella and treating everything to an equal extreme is a complete farce. A girl bringing Motrin to school for her PMS, and loaning some to a friend for the same purpose, is a far different story from one who brings in oxycontin and shares it, yet schools are obligated to treat the Motrin just as severely.
I think it’s a stretch to call this a “hate crime.” More likely the kids were just going for the shock value, and maybe need to be given a better understanding of what those symbols really mean.
How about a suspension followed by some community service? How about letting the kids experience a little social stigma at school? A year out of school will likely leave them even more unsupervised and likely to get into more trouble.
I’m still not quite clear why the schools are disciplining them in the first place. This wasn’t done at their own school, during school hours.
Welcome Guest. Feel free to choose a name. I totally agree with you. I don’t know the kids. If there are discipline problems with any of them, then that should be treated different and seperately. But for all 6 to be expelled…ridiculous.
Emma I agree. Zero tolerance isn’t followed in PWC to start with. They just go into zero tolerance as the chicken you-know-what response when they want to look tough.
Punishment isn’t the same at every school and it isn’t the same from level to level.
I wish the term zero tolerance would just go away. It is meaningless and the kids laugh at it.
I don’t think, now I know more details, that this was a hate crime or incident. Back in August, at first post, I believe I took a much more strident stance. Funny what knowing a few facts has done for me. I hope I have reflected my change in this thread.
Kids with a good track record who engage in a stupid but semi-victimless crime should not lose a year’s education. And there are no guarantees, if it is an expulsion, that they will be readmitted to school. That is totally up to the school board.
Ditto!
“Schindler’s List” should be mandatory viewing for high schoolers, I really have come to the point of feeling this b/c of stories like this where the kids don’t get how horrible these symbols are and what they stand for. I fear a whole generation is learning that Hitler is a joke. Case in point those YouTube videos using scenes from “The Bunker” with subtitles where they’ve changed the words to reflect jokes like “Hitler learns Michael Jackson dies”, etc. If this is what they’re seeing online and what culture is reflecting to them, why should they take the KKK and swastika imagery seriously? They have to be taught what horrors these groups represent, and maybe the Holocaust museum and the tragic scenes in movies like “Schindler’s List” might move some of these kids to a better understanding of this part of our world’s history. One can only hope right?
@Guest 101
Of course, I’ve looked at FB. I said in an earlier post one of them has the n-word on their page under things about me. Yes, I look at FB daily, and the word is used by many ignorant kids. I know when I’m at numerous school functions I hear punks throwing the word around left and right, and yet no one seems to be concerned about the use of the word. I really was intentionally singling anyone out, but I’ve only seen the word on of the guilty party’s pages, and I do see the replies these foolish teens make. I have a child that attends SJHS, and I DO see what these kids are writing. I will always try to tell them the errors of their ways with their words.
You are new here. I stated in an earlier thread and you might want to read the original post from August on this topic. My comments were under “Chris” not “Lafayette”, it’s common knoweledge they are one in the same. 🙂 I’ve had to deal with two of the jokers in my home in the middle of the night. They were VERY lucky I was willing to call their parents and not the police. I will tell you early in the morning as the story was breaking, I had two suspects that immediately popped in to my mind. Low and behold, those two were indeed involved. I do feel very strongly that these kids are entitled to an education. Without and education they are doomed for sure.
oops..I left out a word. Stick around long enough you will see this won’t be the last grammatical error on my part. 😉
I really was *NOT* intentionally singling anyone out,…….
Lafayette, there are no grammar police here, thank goodness.
Actually I am surprised that I ended up being the wuss on this topic and everyone else was Captain Cajones (other than Elena).
Kids use all sorts of words that we would not use. I haven’t figured it out yet. Then they get all outraged over some of the things I might say.
The kids are lucky you called the parents for sure.
““Schindler’s List” should be mandatory viewing for high schoolers,”
It’s not a good movie. Not at all. Try “The Pianist” instead.
@Lafayette
Well I’m sorry you have had problems with 2 of the children. I for sure would like to think all of them have learned their lesson but I know for sure one definitely did. Trust me they realize how much they love an miss school once it is taken away from them. I don’t like the n word and never have but apparently it seems to be a figure of speech with the young adults. I will never be able to find a reason for that. Well I guess we shall see what happened last night soon.
@Guest 101
One of them will be returning to school at the end of January. He seems to be very happy about and thankful for a second chance. I also, addressed his comment on his FB page and told him he should change it to something more positive. I looked at his page this morning and he has changed his quotation. His quotation now says “think before you act”. It sounds like it was a mixed bag of results for the boys last night.
I’m totally agreement with n-word. There is no reason to ever use that term.
“I don’t like the n word and never have but apparently it seems to be a figure of speech with the young adults.”
Much of popular music is addled with it.
“I will never be able to find a reason for that.”
African-Americans adopted the word so as to sooth the sting over it being used as an insult insinuating white superiority.
Hey I’m not even black and I don’t use the word much but when I talk to my wife alone I use it sometimes jokingly … such as “you picked the wrong n***** to f*** with”. Ideally we will all stop caring and it won’t be a loaded word, but that’s for black people to decide. Until they do there’ll be a double-standard about using it, who cares, big deal.
“yet no one seems to be concerned about the use of the word”
That is the ideal state, if you ask me.
If they had used thiner sod and written “PWC stop your racism to Hispanics …” what would have happened? Maybe the sod would still be there and Park and Byler would create a web site for it?