Tuesday, December 1 marked the end of smoking in restaurants in Virginia. Governor Tim Kaine has been seen taking his victory laps. The past president of the Medical Society of VA has stated that 1700 people a year die from second hand smoke.
Is this simply a huge political move? If the past president was so concerned about what kills people in bars and restaurants (technically there are no bars in Virginia) he should start with the booze. Surely that drinking and drinking and driving kill more Virginians in a year than 1700. I never believed the second hand people anyway.
No one can justify smoking. However, is that the principle issue here? It would seem to me that the restaurant owner should be the one who determines if a smoking is allowed or not. Those customers who do not want to be around it would simply go to restaurants that are smoke free. Capitalism at its best.
For right now, expect to see the huddled masses outside the doors of establishments, taking a few puffs. Drinking and smoking go hand in hand. The only way around this one is for a smoking section to have its own separate ventilation system and to be pretty much closed off to the food area. Wise owners will make the retrofit if they haven’t already.
The anti smoking crew is much like the anti gun crew. Strident and ever so right, if only in their own minds.
I did not see this – but I am so happy. I can go to a Restaurant and enjoy my meal smoke free. THe issue is that the smoker, no matter how polite they are, annoys me with their smoke – forcing me to leave the Restaurant. Wise owners will not spend the money on the closed rooms – it has been shown before that the business of the smokers do not justify the expense, and that often times, business actually increases in bars and Restaurants when the smoking ban is enforced.
I am not a smoker, but is it really such a big deal to eat a meal without smoking a cancer stick? I sometimes see a smoker at a Restaurant who is not even smoking, just the stick burning. I can see where the smoking habit goes hand in hand with drinking.
I don’t think it is nearly as big of a deal for the diners as it is for the bar crowd, Pat. That is the part of the business it will hurt. Many establishments are right at the 50% cut off with total revenue. In VA no more than 50% of total revenue can come from alcohol.
This new law will really impact the bar type restaurants. It won’t bother those that sell mostly food.
It’ll be intersting to see what happens to a couple of my favorite Manassas City restaurants which serve good food, have a healthy bar scene, and have little room for separate seating. Will the food or booze dominate?
I prefer my restaurant meals without a side order of carcinogens. I never touched tobacco of any kind. I don’t see why people who go to bars can’t limit themselves to one vice at a time, or better yet quit smoking. It’s bad for your health.
Of course its a shallow political move. About 80% of restaurants and bars are non-smoking by their own choice anyway. This is a way for politicians to appease busybodies, and pretend they are solving public health problems, without actually doing anything.
And you’re absolutely right, this attitude should also ban booze as well. There were 365 drink driving deaths in Virginia alone last year, and that doesn’t take into account costs from missed work days, and increased health costs due to alcoholism. We should also ban fatty foods as well, since obesity is far and away the number one health issue in America.
Not to mention all the hookah bars in Northern Virginia are now out of business.
@Witness Too
I don’t like bars that are dark and blast loud music. You know what I do?
Go somewhere else.
My wife will be especially happy about this. Her asthma gets triggered. She actually mentioined this to me after waking up yesterday.
20% of adults are smokers. I have no idea what percent of bar flies are smokers but I know more than 20%.
Witness, nicotine is supposedly more addictive than heroin. It is all well and good to be perfect and to have no addictions. Not everyone is that fortunate.
I am of the opinion to just not go to places if they don’t have air quality to your liking. Matt, I know of almost NO restaurants that are really bars, selling minimum food, that are non-smoking. Perhaps I should say NO successful bar/restaurants.
It should be up to the business owner. That then makes it up to the customers. There is just something about that kind of govt regulation that bothers me a great deal.
When will Virginia decide no one can smoke in a motel room? That has been left up to innkeepers so far.
This isn’t a complete ban on smoking in restaurants, it’s just a ban for all intents and purposes. If a restaurant has a separate smoking section with a separate ventilation system, they can allow smoking. It will depend on the restaurants, but some may be able to seal off their bar area and put in another HVAC unit.
My own personal view is close to Moon-Howler. I detest smoking, but am not a fan of the War on Smoking. If smoking is so horrible, Congress should man-up and ban the sale of cigarettes instead of taking a piece of the action through sin taxes.
Most places that I’ve gone to you weren’t allowed to smoke in the eating area any way, just at the bar. So now you can’t smoke in the bar area as well huh… what’s next, you can’t smoke outside, in your car, in your home?
Since smoking affects everyone around the smoker, I am a fan of the war on smoking. Smoking should be analogous to masturbation – okay to do, but not in public. Do it in your own house or over lunchtime in your car.
oops I’ve said too much
After decades of medical research showing smoking to be
dangerous, those individuals who still crave cancer sticks
know what they are doing to themselves – just don’t
include me in your slow, painful suicide plan. Bad enough
you nasty habit drives up the cost of health insurance for
all of us.
(FYI: Greg L. is a he heavy smoker. Nicotine strikes again.)
@Poor Richard
Should we also ban red meat, soda, and other fatty foods?
Obesity drives the cost of health care up far more than smoking, not to mention the intense emotional pain of watching a loved one die prematurely from heart failure, colon cancer, or diabetes.
Meat requires more resources to produce than vegetables as well, so every time someone selfishly orders a hamburger, they are sending the entire planet towards a “slow, painful suicide”.
I don’t believe we can debate the virtues of smoking. I don’t know how anyone can defend it. It is a horrible, addictive, unsafe habit.
I am going to side with Formerly on this one. I don’t hate cigarette smoke except in hotel rooms. Manning up and simply outlawing it is far too logical. Plus what a hell of a tax base to lose.
Hello brings up an important idea and one that is very likely to happen. Where does the ban stop? Already employees are being told they can’t smoke near doors, on property etc. One of the cruelest bans is up at Prince William Hospital. You aren’t supposed to smoke on the grounds. What if you lock yourself in your own car? I felt badly for the people down at the addiction treatment center. I wonder how many people avoid drug and alcohol treatment because they can’t face going through cig cold turkey at the same time? I have been told they give you a patch.
You know, each and every one of us probably does something or has done something that others of us might think dangerous or risky or expensive to society. Those who do extreme hiking, sky diving or play weekend soccer get more injuries than coach potatoes. The potatoes probably need more exercise and perhaps a better diet.
When we start the smug ‘your habits are worse then mine’ then we run the risk of getting on to a very slippery slope. When do we start telling people they can’t have children with downs syndrome because they will cost too much money educationally and medically? I think all of us would balk at that notion.
I might eat chicken because it isn’t red meat. Someone else might come along and tell me that I shouldn’t be eating chicken because chickens have faces. Tom might eat only fish. Dick might not like that because Tom has more mercury in his system than he should. Harry is opposed to those who eat carbs for whatever reason …glutens from China?
You want to eat greasy fried food – go ahead – I do (not every day). You want to eat red meat, go ahead. You want to smoke – go ahead.
When I go to a Restaurant, I look around, and if I see someone smoking, I leave. What does get to me, is when I look around, see no smokers, order my meal, and then a smoker comes in, and forces me to leave. I cannot tolerate cigarette smoke, I do not know why, I just can’t.
I am happy with a smoking in Restaurants ban – I am also happy that smoking is banned in my work buildings (and medical buildings too!) and airplanes… I was once seated in non-smoking, the problem was that smoking was the ROW behind me (true story).
Pat, if I had a violent reaction to smoke, I would simply not go to restaurants that allowed it. Plenty don’t, even in the bar area. I am very allergic to some perfumes. That is harder to regulate for sure. It is impossible to escape from.
Someone mentioned something earlier about exemptions. I believe outside smoking is still acceptable. It is cheaper for some restaurants to put in a covered porch area and buy some patio propane heaters for their bar crowd. It will be interesting to see what kind of creative arrangements restaurant/bar owners will come up with to circumvent the new law.
“When do we start telling people they can’t have children with downs syndrome because they will cost too much money educationally and medically? I think all of us would balk at that notion. ”
I don’t balk at it. When you think about it, 100 or 200 or 300 years down the line it probably won’t be legal or accepted to give birth to a severely handicapped child.
I misspoke. I should have said many not all. Rick, that is entirely possible.
I am reporting in on 2 bars. Breakers in Herndon will continue to have smoking on its second floor. It complies with all state regs.
City Tavern sealed off its glass area out back near the patio for the evening. I think that was a stop-gap measure. I am not sure what they plan to do permanently. It isn’t on the vent system. My local reporter said it was like an airport smoke room.
I have no problem with people smoking. I only object when they exhale. I wondered why many of my favorite restaurants created outside seating in Old Town Manassas (Okra’s, Little Portugal, that place by the train station). Now I know.
I notice they left out the VFW and American Legion (private clubs). That’s why I don’t go (and probably one of the reasons their membership is dropping so fast). These clubs have turned into smokers clubs for “old farts” (I can say that since I am one). I Can’t think of a single reason why a young, healthy soldier, sailor, airman or marine would join let alone bring his family to a smoke filled club. If you would like to eat lunch there or take your wife to Dinner one evening, be prepared to smell like an ashtray. Not worth it… I feel sorry for the wait staff at these places.
WooHoo! Yorkshire Restaurant, my favorite greasy spoon, with no smoke now! 😉
It has been my experience that the % of smokers with wait staff is greater than the general population.
I expect there will be more private bottle clubs like the ones in the old days before VA has liquor by the drink. This time it will be for smokers.
Big question: Will the restaurant smoking ban financially impact local and state coffers?
Will it hurt the bar business?
There are many bars in other areas (NYC, DC) that have actually seen a rise in business due to a smoking ban. Some say that the ‘upper class’ (wine, expensive) bars fare better than the old man type bar.
Coming home from an establishment where there are smokers, one has to bathe, wash hair and hang clothes out to air out the smell; THAT’S what really bothers me.
Have you seen the glass cages in certain airports where smokers stand and inhale and exhale and the air is sorta skim milk colored? And, of course, the airplanes before smoking ban were absolutely awful.
As for eating unhealthy food – it doesn’t smell up the air and it doesn’t bother me that others do it, but smoke is everywhere.
How about homes with wood fireplaces? Do people have the same reaction?
Pat, how long has the smoking ban been in effect in DC?
Punchak, I have stood in those glass cages. You don’t need a cigarette. Cheapest smoke in the world.
Perhaps it is time for me to come clean. I am a recovering smoker. I also know if I take one puff I will be right back to being a smoker. If I smoke 1 cigarette I would need to race off to 7-11 and buy a carton. I am that addicted. I miss it very much. After 2 years I still crave.
I love second hand smoke. (well not in airport cages) I don’t care if people blow it in my face.
My point in coming clean: It you have never been a smoker, it is easy to be judgemental. As a former smoker, I have all the compassion in the world for those who are still addicted. I will also stress is it a horrible habit and one without any redeeming values at all. It also stinks when it gets on you, in your house and in your car. I know I walk a fragile line and if I let my guard down, I could go right back.
Before I quit, I could tell you the smoking policy of every restaurant in a 20 mile radius. Now I don’t care. The ban really has no impact on me. I truly do not care either way other than as a matter of principle.
Non-smokers should never be forced to breathe in that vile smoke. I admit I’m one of those who gives smokers a dirty look if I am impacted by their smoke (sorry M-H, but congratulations for quitting). I just cannot understand how people can put that stuff into their lungs. Prior to yesterday, if you went into any establishment that caters to young adults, you would be amazed at how many of those 20-somethings smoke. They think they look so sophisticated, but don’t realize actually how stupid they look. My apologies for being so judgmental…
The DC smoking ban went into effect Jan 2007. NYC – 2003.
I can sympathize with a smoker, but you tell me, MH, can a smoker not make it through dinner without lighting up?
@Moon-howler
Kudos to you for fighting it! Stay the hell away from it.
My dad was a smoker. He died a long, agonizing death (sort of like slow drowning without the water) from emphysema. He continued to smoke. That made me a confirmed non-smoker and a bit paranoid about second hand smoke. It also gave me an appreciation regarding the addictive effects of tobacco and just how hard it is to quit. The good news is that the lungs have an amazing capacity to regenerate. I congratulate you, MH, for quitting.
I believe everyone has the right to pursue their personal choices, including smoking, as long as they do no harm to others (the basic Libertarian philosophy). I also believe that the dangers of second hand smoke have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I believe that smokers have no more right to breath smoke into my face than drivers have a right to drive on the sidewalk. Either could kill me. The Government is right to regulate both.
That’s just my opinion.
Some can, some can’t. It depends on how strong their addiction is. @ Pat
No one forces anyone to go into a restaurant. The owner of the restaurant should decide. Establishments with a big bar crowd usually lean towards smokers.
I actually wasn’t going to mention that I was a former smoker until I realized how little those who have never smoked understand about the addiction involved. Oddly enough, I hid that I had quit from most people I know. No announcements. I never wanted accolades.
Think of it this way: Everyone who drinks regularly is not alcoholic. Some are, some aren’t. Nearly everyone who smokes is a smokaholic. They are addicted, regardless of what they say.
The emphasis should ge on getting kids to not smoke in the first place. That is how you eliminate the problem.
Fire, you would be the first person to speak out if someone glared at a person they thought was an illegal alien. I guess that is how I feel about the smokers. They sort of live in the shadows also now. People put that vile stuff in their systems because they are addicts. Smoke, alcohol, drugs, dope — name your poison.
I don’t like being around unruly drunks. Therefore there are bars I wont go to. If I didn’t like the smoke in a bar, I wouldn’t go there either.
Opinion, I am glad you never started. My brothers didn’t either. However, I feel the government is hypocritical. They love the tax from all the poisons they are regulating. Maybe they should man up and address the problem. State and Fed. I think it is up to the owner. Customers will determine where they go and where they won’t.
@Opinion
That’s a really compelling opinion, Opinion. I’m sorry, very sorry you had to see your father pass on in that way. He is in a better place now.
MH, the Government regulates every aspect of Restaurant management from kitchen cleanliness, food sanitation, rodent control, insect management, etc., etc., etc. If I follow your logic, a Restaurant owner should not be encumbered by any of these Government intrusions. Compliance would be, as you say, “up to the owner”. I’m not sure why restaurants should be given a pass on smoking – something that is perhaps an equal or bigger risk to their customers than many of the other things the Government regulates.
For those that still want to smoke, private clubs are exempt from the new regulations. Anyone can become an associate member of the VFW or the American Legion and smoke to their hearts content. These organizations have become de-facto “smoking clubs” (which is why I don’t patronize their clubs and probably one of the reasons both groups are going out of business).
Of course, I absolutely support the right of everyone to do whatever they wish in the privacy of their own home (as long as it doesn’t involve hurting other people or taking their stuff – Libertarian philosophy).
Thank you.
And I understand your point of view, Opinion. I do think that the state has the right to regulate sanitation, food prep, pest control.
Here are my problems:
1.The state is making out like a bandit on cigarette sales because of the taxes.
2.The state is also making money off the tax and sale on booze which is every bit as harmful to people, just in a different way.
3. Smoking, like gun control, has gotten very political.
4. The state needs to relax its rules on bars and allow bars to be separate from restaurants.
5. I guess I don’t like the idea of the state codifying another group to be the pariah. We already have drinkers, gamblers, and those who use drugs as pariahs. No one here seemed to even wince trashing those who smoke. Yet some of those same people would have a fit over trashing any other group of people.
Perhaps the state or the nation needs to get serious about putting some chomp on the tobacco industry rather than using cigarettes as the cash cow. Talk about mixed messages.
When will the public get equally as outraged over the antiquated drunk driving laws? Exactly how is a person supposed to know when they are a 0.08? How about something simple like a working breathalizer in each place that serves alcohol so people could at least be responsible for their own behavior.
MH, People can’t shoot anywhere they want, people can’t drive under the influence of anything, now people can’t create second hand smoke anywhere they want. The U.S. Surgeon General has concluded that breathing even a little secondhand smoke poses a risk to your health. Scientific evidence indicates that there is no risk-free level of exposure to secondhand smoke. Breathing even a little secondhand smoke can be harmful to your health.Smokers die average of 13 to 14 years earlier than non-smokers. Diseases linked to smoking include cancer of the bladder, esophagus, larynx, lung, mouth, throat (to name but a few). Smoking also has been linked to chronic lung disease, chronic heart and cardiovascular disease as well as reproductive problems.
Sorry, I just don’t support discriminating against 80% of the population in favor of smokers (down to around 20% of the population – and dropping.) People… like you… have done the math. The math says don’t smoke and don’t impose the product of your habit on others. If you do smoke, do it somewhere else (but perhaps not around a non-smoking spouse or children).
I guess we’ll just have to disagree on this one. To paraphrase the founding fathers, “Don’t blow smoke on me!”
Having said all that, Opinion, doesn’t that make you have serious concerns that tobacco products are still being sold in the state and the state is taking that tax money? The duplicity on the part of the state bothers me. Meanwhile every evening in a bar somewhere a drunk driver is in the making, headed out for our roads.
My argument was only for bars. It might be time for Virginia to relax that 50/50 rule a little. I go back to my feeling about drunks. I don’t go to bars with drunken patrons. Keep the drunks and the smokers together and provide the drinkers with state mandated breathalizers.
I am going to be bold here and suggest that the second hand smoke red flag is probably one widely accepted theory that has not been put to rigorous scientific test as it should, mainly because it is impossible to separate out other environmental irritants.
I would love to outlaw wearing perfume in public. After that I would outlaw ‘chew.’
We will have to disagree. My argument is coming from the other side of the fence in part. While I don’t disagree with your point of view, I also don’t disagree with mine.
One final note–our tobacco companies are marking out new turf–overseas. They won’t go belly up. Nothing we can do about it.There is something disturbing about that, knowing that somewhere a whole new generation of smokers is being made.
@Moon-howler You know, we would significantly reduce our health care costs while increasing our life span if the Government simply outlawed those things that kill us. Cigarettes, alcohol, “supersize” menus, 13″ dinner plates, cars that go over 55 miles an hour, etc, etc, etc. would all be “gone”. As a Libertarian, I am of course against that kind of intrusion into our life choices (I have two cars that will go 155 mph, for example).
That being said, I have come to the conclusion that the taxes we pay are the price of a civil society and that Government regulation is necessary in some areas to protect us from man’s greed and lack of compassion for his fellow man (in this usage man = man or woman). Prohibition didn’t work. Marihuana prohibitions are dropping all over the Country (something I support – the Attorney General isn’t even prosecuting these days). McDonalds “Supersizes” because we keep “supersizing” (in meals and girth). I fully support the “sin” tax on things that science and logic dictates we shouldn’t do but we elect to do anyway for a number of reasons.
First, it doesn’t limit personal choice or freedom. It just makes you pay for choices that cost society money.
Second, it pays society back for the negative aspects of personal choice. I would love to see Acapulco Gold’s right by the lucky Strikes… with tax stamps on them).
Third, it perhaps reminds people that there is a cost to their choice (both literally and figuratively). When you chose to smoke, for example, you chose to shorten your life, perhaps the lives of people in your company, drives up health care costs for those of us who don’t smoke, etc. etc. etc.
Forth, it occasionally changes a person’s (and perhaps society’s) behavior. There’s a point when cigarettes, for example, become an expensive habit causing a person to reconsider their commitment to the habit.
There’s more reasons; however, this should be enough to demonstrate my thinking.
In a world driven by what’s best for its citizens, “sins” (or scientifically based identified risks) that hurt individuals and society would be illegal (alcohol and tobacco being at the top of the list). In a libertarian world, everything that didn’t involve hurting other people or taking their stuff would be legal and a matter of personal choice. I think making just about everything legal and taxing it to both generate revenue while driving towards science based behavior (known risks, not religious principles) is an acceptable compromise.
I am aware that the tobacco companies are looking for new markets. This (IMHO) just proves my observation about man’s greed and lack of compassion for his fellow man.
That’s just my opinion.
This is just another exmaple of “Liberals love government intervention” even when there is no larger local public purpose to be achieved. Its called paternalism. Good manners are not enough. A business wiling to install more ventalation is not enough. It my sense of my freedom versus your sense of your freedom. The difference is that you who argue for this restrictive legislation are imposing your views on others and on the business while still free to go anywhere you want. Consistently taking it too far is the hallmark of t liberal.
@PWC taxpayer
Hummm… To follow your logic, it’s ok to park my car on your lawn, paste a target on your front door, take a leak in your flower bed, and engage in a bit of target practice.
I’m guessing that you agree some regulations are ok and others are excessive. The question is where to draw the line. I don’t think that people who disagree with my opinion are necessarily wrong (MH certainly articulated a good argument for an alternate point of view). I just think they disagree. Civil discussion is how we find middle ground. It’s a shame that civil discussion is a lost art (with a few exceptions).
Labels are an intellectual short cut to try and categorize complex ideas into simple “boxes”. Most people don’t fit neatly into “boxes”. If labels make you think you understand the conversation, I prefer libertarian (which has nothing to do with Liberals).
Bravo!!! Secondhand smoke increases heart-disease risk 25-30 percent, and lung cancer risk by 20-30 percent (per CDC). If smokers can come up with a creative way to ensure that I do not have to smell or breathe their foul emissions and be put at risk, then then by all means smoke away. But since no such protective bubble exists, sorry, they need to take it home or in their car and keep it there.
This isn’t a liberal vs. conservative issue; it’s a public health issue. My employer has no right to expose me to harmful chemicals and vapors without providing appropriate barriers, and that is mandated by the federal government. No one seems to have any problem with that sort of regulation, because OSHA declares that you have a right to have a clean, safe and healthy workplace. Why do we lose those rights when we go to public areas?
And I’m sorry, but if you give smokers an inch, they will take a mile almost every time. Our company policy is that no one can smoke within 50 feet of the building. Smokers continuously violate that, so that building occupants have to smell the smoke getting drawn in through the hvac system. I speak up, they stop for a time, and then start right back up. And don’t get me started about the numerous breaks they get just because they have a “right” to smoke. Years ago, when I worked in the hospital and smoking was still allowed on campus, I covered HOURS of smokers’ time when they left the nursing unit repeatedly and left all their patients in everyone else’s care.
And how about the fact that when I try to drive with my window rolled down on a nice day, there is invariably a smoker in front of me, daintily dangling their cigarettes outside of their window to keep their own cars smelling fresh, but gagging me in the process. Then they toss their lit butts out into the road. Lovely.
Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I am sick to death of “smokers’ rights.” Do it in your home, in your car, but keep it away from me. You want to eat a lot of fatty food? Be sedentary? Practice voodoo? Have sex with squirrels? Great. I support your right to engage in any activity that does not have a deleterious effect on my own health and well-being.
I honestly don’t want to watch squirrels have sex. The ones in my yard like to do the deed while hanging on to the screens. It is …TMI!!!!!! Plus they look like rats with bushy tails.
I have never smelled smoke from someone else’s car. Not ever. What are you doing there? I hate butt tossing. It starts fires. No smokers car smells fresh regardless of how much you dangle out the window.
Smokers should get the same break everyone else gets. No more no less.
I completely understand someone not wanting to smoke. I don’t understand why people who would jump through hoops for the rights of other groups feel no shame about the distain with which they speak of smokERS. (not smokING)
Emma, you realize that the smoking is a serious addiction, don’t you? Anyone who says they aren’t addicted is, in all probability, lying to themselves and to others.
I would also suggest that cdc statistics on second hand smoke fall into the category of junk science since it is impossible to filter out other environmental agents that might be doing the damage. A person knows if they smoke or not. Who knows what second hand smoke a person is around.
Of course I understand it’s an addiction. But it’s possible to have a food addiction, an alcohol addiction, a sex addiction, what have you, without it adversely impacting your neighbor. It’s not possible to have a smoking addiction without impacting someone else, unless you are a complete hermit.
Would you assert your child’s right to a peanut-butter sandwich if you knew there was a severely nut-allergic child in his or her class?
and I should have said consenting squirrels. Those little guys have rights, too.
You could also argue the same about man-caused climate change.
Not quite as convincingly. I don’t argue man-caused climate change. I don’t have the science skills. Arguing that man has to have some impact on the earth is about as far as I will go.
I don’t mind if people have strong feelings about smoking. I mind the near hatred.
There is probably nothing cuter than a baby squirrel.
I can go both ways with booze also–with equal conviction.
It is possible to smoke without being addicted. I enjoy an occasionally cigarette when I go out to a bar. I probably smoke once a month. I enjoy the buzz, and never felt an urge to go out and buy a pack of cigarettes.
Enjoying an occasional beer with a cigarette is over now. Thanks, lawmakers – how dare I be allowed to have a choice like that.