What’s going on in the City of Manassas with all the loitering, pan-handling and shady goings-on near Harris Pavillion and the convenience stores? I keep hearing as many complaints about these sites as I do about Coverstone 7-11. It is impossbile to go in to the Grant Avenue 7-11 (between Center and Church) without being approached and pestered for ‘change.’ Some of them get aggressive when you ignore them.
The store clerks seem to be afraid of the people that hang out in front of there. The loiters go in and steal from the store then they hang out and intimidate the approaching customers, that is when they aren’t too busy slithering around back to complete their ‘deals.’
This loitering has been an on-going problem for several years. Maybe it is time for the City cops to start making routine stop-bys and run some of these jokers off. For the record, my sources tell me it isn’t Latinos. The people are mainly whites and blacks. There are very few Latinos loitering. I have also been told to advise women, both young and old, to not go near that 7-11, especially at night.
It sounds like it is time for this neighorhood to be cleaned up and for the riff raff to move on. The City of Manassas has a wonderful Old Town section that is being destroyed by this element. The City has great cops also. Perhaps people just move on and don’t complain. However, if you can’t go in a store or to a pavillion because of the loiterers being obnoxious, this hurts the City and it hurts the City’s revenue. There are enough good City people who are part of this blog that I know this matter will get the full attention of those who can and will fix the problem. I have promised my souces this.
Since that area is a business district, Moon, the City police could set up a Business Watch, similar to Neighborhood Watch, if the 7-11 and other business owners/ managers are interested and willing to play an active role. Your source can contact Officer Scott Stallard, 703-257-8179.
A more compassionate solution is to direct people in need to Family Services in the old Piedmont Savings & Loan Building (9324 West Street, but the building actually sits on Grant Ave). Also, Trinity Episcopal Church in Old Town serves a free hot lunch on Mondays (20 people were there this past Monday). First Baptist offers the same on Thursdays.
I didn’t get the impression these were truly needy people. It is more like substance abuse so I suppose that depends on how one defines needy.
Perhaps if City people are aware that it is a huge problem, they will do something. I told the sources they were doing the right thing. It is as important to clean up their neighborhood as it is for people in any neighborhoods in the county. It is just as important for urban people to have safe neighborhoods as it is the more suburban folks.
I doubt that the 7-11 clerks will complain. They are afraid. I doubt that tourists complain when they get approached at the pavillion. The City needs to be pro-active. The problem has been on-going.
The folks who have complained to me probably wouldn’t call the cops on them. Its one of those laws of the jungle things. That is why I am going to bat for them and making the issue public. I have been hearing about it for several years now and I have witnessed it myself, although not recently. I just won’t go in the areas any more than I would go to Coverstone 7-11.
Good on you, Moon. It looks to me like that area needs some serious police attention. It wasn’t too many years ago that we faced a somewhat similar problem here. We were lucky enough to have the sheriff send out a Community Policing Officer (CPO) to focus just on this and the neighborhoods immediately around us. That CPO landed in our neighborhood like a cruise missile out of nowhere. Exit the loiterers really fast. At first they only moved away from ground zero and tried to work the perimeters. Then they got tired of being ambushed no matter where they tried to hang out. After awhile it was, as the CPO told Neighborhood Watch, “getting kind of quiet and boring around here.”
I don’t know if PWC or Manassas have a Community Policing program. If not, they should. I’ve seen it work here. That CPO soon knew everyone and every place in the neighborhood almost as well as Neighborhood Watch did. He treated the place like it was his second home.
MH, where did you get this information: “The store clerks seem to be afraid of the people that hang out in front of there. The loiters go in and steal from the store then they hang out and intimidate the approaching customers, that is when they aren’t too busy slithering around back to complete their ‘deals.’ “
I am not saying where i got the information. I promised anonymity. It was first hand information however. There are probably other sites. I just chose 2.
I don’t doubt MH’s information is true. Loiterers and pan handlers are a big problem in a lot of cities – DC being no exception. Too bad it is happening in Old Town too. Hopefully with a little attention from the local police, the problem can be cleaned up before it gets too much out of hand.
The idea of a Community Policing program is good too. I wish that had been done in Point of Woods and down by Stonewall Park – it could have helped a lot there.
Gotcha.
Anyway, CPO sounds like a good option.
Just talked to Officer Stallard. He said Lt. Trey Lawlor is working with Old Town businesses to get a business watch going.
The City has had community policing for years. All it takes is a phone call to the police department to find out who the officers are who work with your neighborhood. The City has town hall meetings in each of the community policing areas, and the officers who work your neighborhood are there to talk with you.
In addition, you can e-mail the police or even take a satisfaction survey online at the City Web site:
http://www.manassascity.org/index.aspx?nid=17
Here’s the schedule of town hall meetings in neighborhoods for 2010. The next one is Feb. 1 in the Weems area:
http://www.manassascity.org/DocumentView.aspx?DID=320
You can meet your community policing teams at these town hall meetings.
Cindy, per usual, you are a great, reliable source of information!
That is good. And thanks for making that call, Cindy. Right now, I am the contact and I am almost positive the people who talked to me will not go further.
I don’t know how to say this so I will try to muddle. I have not been communicating effectively today. There are people who do not want to have the police come talk to them. It makes them sitting ducks for criminals. There are people who, for whatever reason, insist on maintaining their anonymity.
When this crowd is cleared out, everyone wins. Manassas business wins, City image improves, and tourists should have a more pleasant experience.
That’s my hood and I would say that there are a roughly equal mix of loiterers there. I’m not sure why it matters but there are certainly latinos in that mix. As Cindy points out, we have had CP for years but if nobody reports the problem, it can’t ever be fixed.
For whatever it’s worth, I haven’t felt unsafe there lately but that might be just me. I also don’t go there at night but that’s because I’m a home body. Once I get home at night, that’s it. I ain’t going back out….:)
I thought the city had community policing in place, so that’s not a surprise to me. Well, hopefully the situtation in Old Town will be short lived, as the Old Town area really is a great place.
” It is believed that the general orderliness of the town is largely due
to the practice of the police requiring that all hoboes and other
undesirables found on the streets to spend the night in the lock-up
and being made to get our of town promptly upon being released
in the morning.”
Biennial Report of the Manassas Town Manager, 1929-30.
Ah, the good old days.
It sounds like the good old days need to be revisited.
When I first came to Manassas, the ‘Old Town’ 7-11 was on the other side of the tracks at the corner of Prince William and Grant. You couldn’t go in there for all the loitering. Much of it was kids and bums wanting beer money or for you to buy beer for them because they were under age.
Finally the law laid on them a bit and they found other places to hang out. That needs to happen now.
My sources have been reading this thread. They feel the problem is being denied even on here. They also say that business district or not, many of those buildings in old town have apartments over them. So the area is mixed: business and residential.
A Community Policing Program works in both directions: (1) problems created by people from outside the neighborhood;and (2) problems created by residents within the neighborhood. Our CPO is responsible not only for our neighborhood and the one next to us but also shares the same kind of tasking at a nearby shopping center with the CPO one area over — in effect, a mix of business and residential. A new business watch was also formed at the shopping center, using, inter alia, a legal tactic which allows identified people to be banned from private property at the request of the owner and arrested if they violate that ban, even though they may not be caught committing a specific felony or misdemeanor at that moment. I have watched CPO’s work this thing in business areas. The loiterers get very little peace, eventually have to keep looking over their shoulders, and often just leave the area because of the hassle.
Had to laugh at the term “hoboes” which dates the article! Otherwise, it sounds like a good solution to our present day problem with pan handlers, etc.! Lock them up at night to keep them safe and warm – run them out of town the next morning! They knew how to get things done back then! I can imagine the hue and outcry if that were tried now here or in DC where it is definitely a big problem.
Wolverine, you are in Loudoun or Prince William?
GR and PR, I have been told that some of the old town problem is caused by proximity to the jail. The jail is just a hop, skip and a jump from where the historic district starts.
Maybe those being released should be pointed in the other direction.
Some points to note:
– As Gainesville noted, this is an ongoing problem in many cities,
including Manassas, and it receives regular attention, but,
in public places individuals have rights that they
don’t have at private shopping centers or faux “town centers”.
There are major legal issues in play. This isn’t 1929.
– The Council pays close attention to the OTBA (Old Town
Business Association) and traffic (speeding, pedestrian safety,
parking) tops their list. No doubt the warmer months will turn more
attention to this issue and others – like skate boarding
(even after the City built a SB park – Grrr).
– The Harris Pavilion continues to grow in use and popularity. No
evidence of a large number of people being driven away.
– Suggestions include remove the gazebo, most benches and
the nearby bus stops. And do well intentioned groups offering free meals,
etc. add to the problem in some cases?
– A lot of really good people are
working very hard to support our community – perhaps your friends
might enjoy having a positive role by volunteering at the museum,
visitor center, or the Candy Factory.
I certainly hope the city isn’t reverting back to those days.
I’ve been to the 7-11 at Liberia & Mathis several times over the past two weeks. I’ve noticed more loitering there than I’d seen in years. Yes, I include the loitering back in the day when the city teens had their “strip”. Hell, the pay phones at that location have been turned off at night for almost two decades. If memory serves me correctly that was to do with drug activity at that location.
My daughter can’t stand it when we stop at that 7-11 these days. It’s just too many people hanging out. I was there Monday. I saw a several loitering there, and one had to take a leak on the side of dumpster in broad day light. I didn’t have my phone with me, Otherwise, the City’s finest would’ve definately heard from me.
I was sort of being facetious about the 1929 solution being applied today. I can just imagine the legal issues and lawsuits if such a solution were tried these days… Times were simpler way back when in many ways!
OMG, the strip! Back in the late 80s, my first husband unpacked his childhood walkies-talkies to let our daughter play with them and the when he turned them on, they picked up the CB traffic with chatter from the guys trying to pick up teenage girls on Mathis Avenue as they cruised. You would not believe the language.
These days, no matter what 7-11 you go to – they seem to be a magnet for loiterers. Although, now that I think of it I’ve not noticed loiterers at the 7-11 in Gainesville where I sometimes get gas (because their gas is among the cheapest here). Could be the location makes a difference too – that one not really being near a residential area so not within walking distance of potential loiterers.
I definitely remember the goings on at the shopping center on Mathis Ave. in the late 80’s as that was in my “early years” at Point of Woods. It definitely was a place that got a lot of police attention as I recall.
Makes sense it being in walking distance of the jail! Maybe we need to give the released prisoners a free cab ride out of town!
The people who have talked to me do volunteer work. They do some sort of work with senior citizens. Why must volunteering be part of every solution? Not everyone is in the position to volunteer.
The people complaining have suggestions. More police presence is needed. That’s the place to start. The police are smart people. They will know what to do. However, priorities have to be set. If the store clerks are fearful, smart cops can handle this problem. Perhaps they could even interface with the owners of the store. A store clerk isn’t the owner.
I have seen the panhandlers and the thugs hanging out at the 7-11s all over the city. (county, different day, same story) I am not the only person with sight. Lafayette isn’t the only person with sight. The 7-11 she is complaining about got better for a few years….but things are creeping back now. Everyone is commenting about it behind the scenes.
Is drug use up? Is the economy contributing to the high visibility of loitering? How about joblessness? I don’t know.
GR, I like your suggestion of cab ride out of town. Isn’t ‘using’ on in public illegal? How about panhandling? is that illegal? I know loitering is legally problematic.
Ah, yes — the infamous Mathias Avenue Cruisers!
The MCPD put up road blocks which led to a Cruiser’s Association
promising to sue the City, etc. Much angst for several
years then it went away. The culture of cruising a”strip” looking
for girls and showing off cars slipped into history.
(Was surprised at the time that people drove from miles
around to cruise Mathias Ave. – Culpeper, Fairfax, Herndon etc.
A defacto auto show every Friday and Sat. night at Manassas
Shopping Center).
Speaking of Mathias, has anyone else noticed the Prince William
Islamic Center in the old DMV building next to Battlefied Ford?
The times – they are a changing. Guess they selected Manassas City
because we are so racist and prejudice (Fernandez – Liberty St. sign),
yep. As did, no doubt, the Islamic group holding Friday Prayers at the
Francis Cannon VFW Post on Centreville Rd. — in Manassas City!
Suggest a boycott of any 7-11 store that allows their property to
harbor jerks who panhandle, harass people, and/or who show
signs of being drunk or high. It is a private business – hit them
in the cashbox and they will wake up and smell their nasty coffee.
@Poor Richard
I’ve boycotted all but four in the cities and the county. They do get the message when the deposits aren’t as big. I have noticed more “homeless” around the 7-11’s too. Looks like there’s one more to boycott. Now, I won’t be stopping at any in the CoM. The Liberia & Mathis location was the only one I went to, and I won’t anymore. Especiallly after the public urination there on Monday in broad daylight. Geesh.
Lafayette, the Sheetz down at the end of Mathis does not have the same problems that 7-11 has. I don’t know who is controlling it but I have never seen a loiterer there. No one panhandles and no one annoys women.
Maybe it is because that store is in Manassas Park I am guessing. Maybe it is because the sheetz workers don’t allow it. I am not sure. Boundaries down there are very blurred.
Loudoun. The CPO program is the best thing the sheriff ever did.
M-H,
The City isn’t indifferent to the problem, but it isn’t as simple to
resolve as some might think.
The release policy at the detention center is an issue – would
be nice to release PWC prisoners in PWC – they do tend to mill
around Old Town right now.
I suggest volunteering to help someone be part of a solution.
We have too many people throwing rocks and not enough folks
repairing windows.
Do either the city or the county have a cpo program like the one Wolverine is referencing?
PR, Maybe they could be driven to the county line…the PW prisoners.
Some people are not in the position to do that kind of volunteering. Not everyone has as much spare time as others. People should be mindful about assumiing what a person does and doesn’t do. Many people do things for others that no one knows about. They quietly help a neighbor, a group, a charity, and no one ever knows about it.
Problem with loiterers, huh? Are we happy now that the ACLU is fighting for the right to loiter?
I didn’t get the impression that the loitering was as much of a problem as the breaking and entering, stealing, drug use, drug dealing, and pandhandling was.
Thanks for everyone’s input. I hope the right eyes have seen the concern. Old Town Manassas is too nice of an area to have it ruined by scofflaws.
Hi Andy, sorry I didn’t see you in moderation as a first time contributor. Welcome. Thanks for your input. I agree with you. If it isn’t reported, it won’t be taken care of. But that goes back to the law of the jungle….
Hopefully now a little sunlight is on the problem more attention will be paid to the 7-11 on Grant, on Liberia at Mathis and the Pavillion.
Poor Richard refreshed my memory about Mathis Ave. back then – I was thinking there was some kind of lawsuit related to the crackdown on teens and other people hanging out at the shopping strip! That definitely confirms it. I also remember reading an article in the paper about how people came from all over the DC area to the Mathis Ave. strip – it was apparently the place to hang out.
I did not know about the new use for the old DMV building on Mathis Ave.! How interesting! I have not been down Mathis Ave. in more than a year since I moved out of Point of Woods. Wow, things are changing down there!
The Sheetz establishments all seem to be very clean and well run – it is night and day difference between a Sheetz and a 7-11 in my opinion. I used to get gas at the Sheetz a lot when I lived in Manassas – it was brightly lit at night, and very clean. Can’t say the same about the nearby 7-11 on Liberia & Mathis – which always seemed to have a few undesirable people milling about in front of it, etc and just had a rundown look about it, compared to the Sheetz.
Sheetz is in Manassas Park I think if I remember right. I’m remembering the Italian restaurant that used to be there, which I liked and used to go to from time to time – and I thought their address was Manassas Park with the 20111 zip. It has been awhile though so I might be misremembering.
I kind of like the idea of a free taxi ride to the county line for released prisoners. Maybe throw them a coupon to some Burger King or McDonald’s further down Rt. 28 (the ones down near the airport). That could keep them walking in the right direction – away from the city!
Great idea with the coupons, GR.
You are going to find undesirables a almost any place that is open 24 hours. That includes IHOP and Denny’s. It is not limited to convience stores. It just happens you notice these more because, face it, there is one on almost every cornere nowadays.
Very true, Wendi. Welcome to Anti.
The question then becomes whether to let it get worse and worse or do you bring it to the attention of those who might be able to do some clean up. If things get worse, then soon you might as well close down because your decent businesses close down.
Frankly, I know where there are lots worse convenient stores. LOTS worse. However, they aren’t in the high rent district. The areas I am talking about are very visible to anyone coming to the City of Manassas–not what you want guests to leave with as a first impression. (Sort of the same reason you want the Fernandez sign down and not gracing your city or blowing in the wind in your city.)
How about that head count at the HSM meeting last night? I hear things were a little sparse. Maybe they should try to stir up some more fear. The Latinos are coming! The Latinos are coming!
I think we all know volunteering is a given as a possible solution. However, volunteering is not always the solution. Some of the criminal activity that’s been mentioned needs to be addressed by local law enforcement and not a band of volunteers. It’s also important to remember NOT everyone is willing to risk their personal safety at the risk of being a do-gooder.
There are MANY that volunteer in many different ways that aren’t always reported in the news or on a blog. I think it’s fine to suggest places where one might volunteer or donate is one thing, but to straight out tell someone to volunteer if they want things to change/improve is quite another. There are some that are unable physically and/or fiscally to volunteer/donate. We have many in our community that are struggling with their own family issues, health issues, work issues, etc. and don’t always have the time and/or means to do all that they might like to do. The constant reminders are becoming quite unbecoming at this point.
They still have meetings? You’re kidding, right?
Finally! Alvarez and Fernandez have been fined $1200 for their last venture
into harassing the community with their illegal signs at 9500 Liberty.
Ok, not a huge amount, but hopefully enough to encourage them to obey
the law.
GREAT NEWS, Poor Richard. It might not be a huge $$ amount, but it most definately sends the message to obey the law. Congratulations to the City of Manassas, nice work. If not paid in a timely manner can the fine have interest tacked on?