From the Richmond Times Dispatch: (by Jim Nolan)
The Virginia Senate today cleared the way for Virginians to be allowed to carry concealed guns in cars and bars.
In a 22-18 vote, senators approved Senate Bill 334, which would allow people with concealed gun permits to carry their firearms into restaurants that serve alcohol.
Six Democrats joined 16 Republicans to pass the legislation, which had passed the General assembly last year but was vetoed by then-Gov. Timothy M. Kaine.
Senators also passed legislation that would allow Virginians who do not hold concealed gun carry permits to transport their handguns in a locked glove compartment or container in their car. The vote on Senate Bill 408 was 24-16, with six Democrats joining 18 Republicans to support the bill.
Both bills now head to the House of Delegates, which is likely to pass them. If the measures clear the House, Gov. Bob McDonnell is expected to sign the bills into law.
The legislation allowing concealed guns in bars prohibits any concealed gun carrier from drinking alcohol while armed.
Currently gun owners may bring their weapons into restaurants, provided the guns are clearly visible. They can also carry concealed weapons into restaurants that do not serve alcohol. Restaurant owners, however, have the right to exclude guns or weapons of any kind from their establishments.
All of us can think of reasons why drunks and alcohol don’t mix. However, is that what this is really about? What are the compelling reasons for people to carry concealed in a bar? Should those people be forbidden to consume alcohol also?
I would think a rational and constitutionally-consistent case could be made for permitting open carry everywhere but prohibiting concealed carry by anyone other than law enforcement officers when on duty. It would be easier to implement a ban on serving alcohol to persons carrying weapons if you could readily see who had them. I never have fully understood the rationale for concealed carry.
We should affirm the right of citizens to carry weapons in their vehicles, without stipulation of how such weapons are transported; that is the business of the citizen.
The private property rights of the restaurant owner should take precedence over the citizens right to bring a weapon onto your private property, whether or not there shall be liquor served there or not. While the rights of a business who is licensed to serve the public can be abridged, in such cases, such as assuring that all citizens may be served provided their conduct is orderly, each business must retain the right to ban firearms from their own property, just as each of us can ban someone with a weapon from entering our homes.
I think a lot of people will die needlessly from gunshots fired by drunks in bars and restaurants. This is a very bad law.
Said “Starryflights,” the president of the most intellectually advanced anti-gun think-tank, “Virginians Against Guns In North America”.
boy, I am sure glad that the most important thing going on in the Commonwealth – the minority number of people who NEED to carry concealed weapons into bars – is being addressed. Imagine the lawsuits against the state when a drunk idiot blows away an innocent child as the kid walks inside or Red Lobster. Just because you think you should be able to do something does not make it the wise choice.
First of all, Virginia does not have any bars. Only restaurants. So the attempt by starryflights and others to charge up emotions is simply a spurious argument without merit.
If I visit a restaurant that serves alcohol for lunch after taking my noon deposit to the bank (the main reason I have the permit), I must either expose my weapon or leave it in the car where it can be stolen.
This law will make absolutely no difference in restaurant shootings. Guns have always been allowed.
Strangely, if I want a beer or glass of wine with lunch or dinner, I will have to expose my gun to drink.
All this bill does is allow me to keep my gun on my person instead of locking it in my car. It is my belief that that is a more secure solution. While I might feel safe inside a restaurant, it is often the walk from the parking lot to the door and back that is a problem.
But I do not carry a weapon to “feel” secure. I carry it for protection, and believe it or not, the fact that I might be armed also keeps others safe. The criminals never know.
And to those anti-gun nuts that believe it will cause more shootings in restaurants, just how many shots do you think a criminal nut job will be able to get off before another armed patrons ends the spree?
And now that the left wing Obama obsessed nut jobs are taking guns to schools and shooting fellow teachers, you anti-gun lefties might want to rethink your position. I am sure the dead and injured in the U of Alabama shootings would have loved to have had a gun.
I will never start something, but I have the tools to stop it!
And if I live out my days and never need to use the weapon except for target practice, I will be quite happy with that.
Tom, you sound angry. You shouldn’t be. Your boys are rolling on through the General Assembly like Grant took Richmond (sic). I am going to ask you to not do the name calling thing next time you post on here. If you look around rather than breezing on here and posting. all loaded for bear and shotgunning it, you will see that there is very little name-calling on this blog. We aren’t perfect, but we are working on it.
I am aware that there are no pure bars in Virginia. In fact, there is darn little I can’t find out about alcohol laws in the state in a matter of minutes and a phone call. However, definition depends on food revenue. You and I both know that there are times of the day when an establishment is more bar than restaurant.
There are people who don’t want to eat or drink in a wild west atmosphere. They aren’t nut jobs, necessarily. Now the guy who shot up the ducks over at Tim’s Rivershore, he might have been a nut job.
Conceal carriers are prohibited from drinking. Having a weapon concealed in a restaurant also prevents others from 1) getting nervous 2) accosting said gun owner 3) if an incident did occur, open carry people are targets.
Tom said it much better than I can. What he said.
Cargo, I am nervous around guns and alcohol together. I have seen too many people do stupid things while drinking. I am glad concealed carriers are prohibited from drinking. (while concealing) I can live with that.
I would not ever do it. The overpowering urge to shoot drunks might overpower me. (just kidding)
We’re seeing perfect examples of the hard left believing in “better living through legislation.” Of course State’s Attorneys have been exempt from this law for quite some time, so the most dangerous people among us have been able to carry concealed in restaurants for years. Are they a special class of people whose lives are somehow more valuable than the rest of us? In large part, people like myself who do carry concealed are past our “go to bars and get rip-snortin’ drunk” days. I haven’t had a drink in years (makes me feel like crap). I like the “I never felt threatened at a Red Lobster”. I remember the folks who got shot up at McDonals saying “Funny, I never felt threatened at McDonalds, until that dude came in and popped a cap in my ass”. Don’t worry too much folks, there’s still private property, and business owners can still deny service to concealed carry permit holders. Take the Buffalo Wild Wings in Gainesville. They have a sign on their front door that says “no guns”. So now when the criminals get ready to storm into the joint looking to rob it, they’ll see that sign and suddenly be crestfallen: “Oh, dude….what do we do now?”
An armed society is a civil society. Gun laws are interesting… the folks inclined to actually use them in the commission of a crime don’t care about the laws. they laugh at “concealed carry” permits that prevent law abiding citizens from defending themselves while criminals pack whatever they wish. If it’s about reducing deaths, let’s make the speed limit 30 miles an hour, make it illegal to drive a vehicle to any business where alcohol is served, make motorcycles illegal (have you actually looked at the injury and mortality rates?), increase penalties for driving under the influence of anything, etc. etc. etc. I find it ironic that people obsess over gun ownership while ignoring so many much more dangerous behaviors and products that they engage in or use daily.
I am more uncomfortable seeing someone packing heat than I am just thinking maybe someone is. I consider the walk softly and carry a big stick much less controversial. I think people carrying open in restaurants are often trying to prove a point or attract attention. Well, not while I am eating. I have gotten up and left. Too O-K Corral for me. Concealed just doesn’t hit me the same way.
(My experiences with this phenomena have not been in Virginia, for the record)
As a mother of bartenders, I have been told the same thing, Opinion. Pick a bar, any night, and there is a concealed handgun in there. At least one.
As for the driving and alcohol, I want anyone granted an ABC on license to have to provide free, working breathalizers to customers. How does someone know when they are 0.08? So much depends on weight, metabolism etc. If people are to be held accountable for their own behavior then there needs to be a metric device that is easy to use and available for all customers.
@Moon-howler
Absolutely agree with both of your comments. While I’m a fan of the Second Amendment, I consider open carry just a bit over the top. In a civil society, one needs to be… well… civil… and “packing heat” (IMHO) doesn’t qualify.
@Moon-howler
I pretty much open carry everywhere I go (live in PWC). Everyonce in awhile I get odd looks – I’m assuming from transplants to Virginia or visitors from MD or DC. I’ve never been asked to leave a place and I don’t patronize any business that wishes to discriminate against me.
I find that open carry actually makes some people curious and have been approached many times with various questions (do you need a permit to do that? are you law enforcement? what are you carrying? are you carrying hollowpoints? is that a bb gun?? et al)
Actually, one of the best episodes I had was when I went to George Mason University to an ACLU event and was open carrying. I had no negative comments (even though there were many people on the very far left) and I was approached by a few people – mostly women – that were happy that I was carrying. What I find somewhat amusing was that they [the ones that approached me and were happy that I was carrying] didn’t want the other people in attendance knowing that they were happy with me. I guess it’s a schism on the left (as it is on the right – example allowing concealed pistols in K-12 schools). This one lady was a rabbit breeder (she was a vegan and breed them to sell as pets and not for food) and she was telling me about how because she doesn’t have a man around that she has a rifle at home to protect her. Good for her!
I respect that persons with permits that want to conceal have there opinion on how they wish to carry. It’s disheartening that some of them will look down upon open carry because they fear that OC will make people afraid of guns and then impinge upon there permits. But, people like Opinion have a right to their opinion. OC is a personal choice and at least in California could be deadly (detective posted on facebook that he’d prone out an OC’r and shoot him in the back to get two weeks vacation). But, I see no difference in carrying a gun than wearing a peace sign on a shirt or the American flag. All symbols of speech.
Moon, a bartender or employee of a restraunt can carry concealed [in the restraunt] if they have a permit 18.2-308(J3).
Off topic, but wanted to note the article in the metro section (B2)
of today’s WaPo headlined “D.C. area counties rank as healthiest”.
In Virginia, out of 132 jutisdictions: MP #8, Manassas #9, and
PWC #10. (One of the criterias was liquor store density – MP
buys their hooch at the two ABC stores in Manassas – no doubt
that’s why they edged us. As to PWC, surprised Manassas didn’t
come out more ahead.
Not a transplant here. I was born and raised (except for 5 years) in Virginia.
I am curious what you do on school property and on airplanes, Marinm.
I was not aware that guns were permitted on the campus of GMU.
Your stance is far too wild west for my tastes.
Moon – not sure who you think I was calling names, but if you think my non specific references directed at no one (except the Alabama killer) were worse than your threat to shoot drunks, even in jest, then I would say you are in need of a moral compass adjustment.
You sound angry.
What if I were an obnoxious drunk that had been shot in a bar at some point in my life? Have you no pity for MY feelings? Even obnoxious drunks have feelings. As I said, I don’t drink. So I am now simply obnoxiously sober.
And that Grant comment was JUST UNCALLED FOR! Burning everything in sight, shooting, looting. I have tried for years to put that terrible era behind me.
You are a dangerous combination of violence and anger. Do you drink a lot?
I am sanctimoniously indignant and await your apology!!!
Current law allows for concealed carry on school property on the traffic circle. CHP holder cannot leave car while armed (even if kid gets injured on way to car) as they’d instantly be a felon.
For air travel a firearm can be checked (hint, they try not to lose guns in luggage!!)
GMU and VCU are no carry zones under the Administrative Code. Which as far as I understand has no penalty (it’s like a rule not a law). But, since I was at GMU a few years back I don’t know if the GMU addition to the adminstrative code had taken effect or not. Regardless, campus police never said anything about it.
Carry of an open or concealed firearm on the campuses of NOVA, VT, UVA, etc is not illegal. When I went to Monticello this year I was open carrying (a woman from New England didn’t like it and spoke to a guard who spoke to me and we agreed that I’d conceal for the rest of my visit) and had we had enough time we were going to visit UVA so we could look around the campus – OC of course.
So, technically my wife could be a student at NVCC and I could escort her on/off campus while armed – being legal the entire time.
Really though, I’m not the person you need to worry about. There are bad people out there that intend to do harm to people. I only wish to protect myself, my family and others if danger presents itself.
@starryflights
Didn’t that already happen in a Manassas bar? Or was that in the parking lot? And what about the gun toters in Tony’s who walked in just to make a point? That’s legalized intimidation, IMO.
I’m waiting for the number of shootings to go up in restaurants as a result of this law. Also waiting for the numbers to go up as a result of road rage. And I’m waiting for the bars to start getting sued. Mark my words. It’s going to happen.
Tom, your blog reads, “If you’re not right, you’re wrong.”
Why bother discussing any of this, then?
Marinm, I just don’t see why you go through it. You do understand that many people don’t want to be around guns? That is their right also.
It just would seem carrying concealed would protect you, your family and friends and not call attention to the gun thing.
I am trying to think of a nice way to say this. There isn’t a nice way so bear with me… No one thinks they are nuts. I am not saying you are. Please understand that. But no one knows you aren’t Cho or some other person out to blow the world away. It is that element of discomfort that you could avoid others having by just carrying concealed.
That’s as nice about it as I can get. I think I might be saying the moderate’s version of what Cargo said.
Mr. White, my comments to you were not intended to become discussion. You seem like a very literate person. I know you understand the words and phrases I am referring to.
The gun lobby is very powerful, and its headquartererd in Virginia. They own the state Republican party and thus for now our state government. We will be less safe as a result, but not that much less. Probably it’s more dangerous to try to oppose them in today’s climate.
Pinko, there will be no change in road rage because a bill allowing concealed carry in restaurants passed. The sky will not fall and polar bears and koala bears will still be cute but dangerous. Your world will not be rattled off the foundation.
Nor will there be any greater incidents in bars involving legally concealed weapons. As Marinm said, it is not those of us with legally concealed weapons who are the danger. Many, myself included, are Veterans. The government trusted us enough and trained us enough to give us weapons to protect the country. With all this trust and training can we not be trusted to enjoy a meal, have iced tea (un-sweet for me) and catch up on twitter on our Droids AND have a gun in our pocket?
Keep in mind that this bill excludes criminals. Or more precisely, will be ignored by criminals. As it presently is.
As far as my blog slogan, are you saying that if you are wrong you are right? That is illogical. Or do you perhaps imagine some more sinister, political connotation to the slogan?
It is called a Double Entendre, and is a type of humor. Please check out my post on Snowboarding being illegal for another example, or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_entendre
You probably don’t get Dennis Miller either, do you?
You need to lighten up a bit. I discuss things on this and other blogs, and even my own, because it is the best way to hear other opinions. If I did not value opinions from the readers of this blog, I would not visit. Believe it or not, I sometimes find a point of view I may not agree with, but it helps me put a different light on things. And I have often found arguments that have reshaped my own thinking and beliefs.
We can all learn something of value from each other. It is what is so great about being human and alive.
I have a habit sometimes of pushing people for a well reasoned argument instead of regurgitating someone else’ beliefs. Why would I do that? Simple. Because I believe if you reach deep inside your thoughts and think for yourself you will give me something of value that is uniquely you.
And that, my friend, is a treasure. We may agree or disagree, that is of no consequence.
Glad you clarified your position, Tom.
But I will still wage a bet I am right about the shooting increases.
Of course, I can’t wager much on my income : )
Of course people might be uncomfortable about guns but lets say we change that to… Obama t-shirts. Should we ban Obama t-shirts because someone may be offended by them? Of course not. Feelings are rather subjective and we don’t want feelings trumping law.
In terms of open carry, remember until the legislation passes it is the ONLY way for a patron to go into a restraunt with an ABC license and dine. I can’t goto Chipotle’s or Chuck-E-Cheese without open carrying or I’m a criminal. If I goto Pizza Hut or Silver Diner I must open carry. Now the fact that I also do so at Target, Wal-mart, Wegman’s, et al is just my personal preference. I understand the arguements for tactical concealment (and they have some validity to them) but I prefer to be an engaging personality and an open deterent to those that would do harm around me.
Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it! 🙂
Marin, I am not going to get into one of those little what/who kills discussions with this statement, but the Obama tee shirt just isn’t a good comparison. Guns are weapons. Knives and machetes are weapons. They make some people uncomfortable, for a variety of reasons.
I was raised in a home with guns and I am a gun owner. I am not always comfortable when I see people walking around with guns. Why? Because they are strangers. I don’t know if the person is some nut getting ready to blow us all away or what.
I believe that there needs to be balance here.
@Moon-howler
It’s more likely that a nut that’s going to blow you away will hide the firearm rather than carry it openly and plainly on his/her person. As you said earlier, I am a beacon of attention when I’m about so if I were to do something there are already eyes on me and probably a gun trained on me but any of the hundreds of thousand CHP holders in Virginia.
The balance has always been that to lawfully hide a weapon you need state permission. To carry in the open (where people know you are armed) is simply a right.
Open carry allows those less fortunate to still have 2A protections without the undue burden of the $50 cost of a permit.
A comparison of the comfortable vs. uncomfortable argument. I am an avid supporter of personal freedom, but I do draw the line when the discomfort reaches a physical level on the other party. My big pet peeve is smoking. I support anyone’s right to smoke, but when I am forced to breath it or leave, I believe I am the one who has lost a right. Same with loud music and other activities that require I give up a right (to visit a place, or peacefully enjoy a park or beach).
That’s right. I am a right wing nut that favors breathing over smoker’s rights. (I trust it is acceptable to call one’s self a nut?)
But the uncomfortable feeling some have with OC is on a par with being uncomfortable around someone who is gay, or transvestite, or some other behavior. (For the record, I am not uncomfortable with any of these.) Education, understanding and experience with the thing that makes you uncomfortable may help. It is totally illogical to be uncomfortable based on someone else’s behavior, as long as that behavior is no threat to you. I have gay friends that make some of my other friends uncomfortable. But after we sit around, chat a bit, the fear of the unknown, or different, or unusual goes away, and the next step is some level of comfort.
People are people. Sometimes, as is the case with Gays, it is not their thinking that needs adjusting. Sometimes the one who is uncomfortable needs to reset their comfort point. You don’t have to agree or condone the other’s behavior, but if they are doing something that is not illegal and you are uncomfortable with what is simply behavior that does not physically violate your rights, I am afraid I would come in on the side of the rights of open carry person or gay person. And in such situations, if you decide to leave the situation, I don’t believe you have lost a right.
Who here would be uncomfortable with someone openly carrying a gun into Chuck-e-Cheese’s?
We wouldn’t get that lucky.
The controversy is irrelevant. CCP holders have an indication on their licenses. The bill states they cannot drink in possession, it will be very easy due to the carding process already in place. And as a GMU student, I think guns on campus is a great idea, especially for the safety of the resident students.
@Posting As Pinko I guess it’s a question of whether you fear what you can see vs. what is hidden from you. People who go on shooting sprees probably have little regard for gun laws anyway, and will still find weapons to carry out attacks.
It’s the law-abiding who suffer the infringement of their Constitutional rights. The logic never seems to follow that if you take guns away from people that crime will drop; on the contrary, it makes the law-abiding population sitting ducks for the criminals. DC with its strict gun ban still had one of the highest violent crime rates in the nation.
I know what you mean, Emma, but I don’t want my kids seeing guns in a Chuck-e-Cheese. I think it’s intimidating. I wonder how management would view such a thing?
Everything about Chuck-e-Cheese makes me ill at ease. Unfair question.
There really is not comparison to guns. They are what they are. Yes, crazy people can carry concealed as can criminals. Maybe there is a secret handshake for all the open carry folks so they know that they aren’t crazed. However, the rest of us don’t know that. If I see someone strutting around with a weapon, my first thought is, Cho? Call it urban paranoia if you want. I am speaking for many people here.
There are also people I would let in my house with weapons and other people I have made hand me their gun at the door if they want to come in. I knew these people. I don’t know everyone.
Mr. White, I think your right to own a gun is a lot more grounded in reality than your right not to smell or breathe smoke. How do you convince someone not to smoke around you? Do you brandish a weapon during the please don’t smoke around me conversation?
I find it odd and also disconcerting that some far right gun guts and glory types drive moderates on gun ownership into the other camp. I remember seeing the gun rights people at the first anniversary of the Tech massacre. Those folks won no one over. The behavior was insensitive at best.
Guns don’t make me feel safer. This is because I know a handful of people who carry them, and either their tempers or medical conditions concern me. For example, my cousin has a lot of health conditions, ones that sometimes make her doze off or twitch/shake. She also has what can arguably be considered an on again/off again pain medication addiction. She can legally carry a weapon, and does so most of the time. In addition, she is paranoid that something bad is going to happen…every stranger is out to rob or attack her, everything is about fear, etc. It really concerns me that this whole situation is an accident waiting to happen. She is certainly not the only example of a person who probably should not be carrying a gun; there are lots of people like her out there.
Look, I know there are lots of people who have gone through training in order to use their guns, or who practice or hunt regularly. This does not mean that these people have the same mental training as police officers, so that they know what to do in situations such as a robbery or attack in public. When there is a hostage situation, I’m sure there are lots of things that a person with a gun can do to make it worse.
@Posting As Pinko An hour in a Chuck-e-Cheese is enough to make me want to put a gun to my own head. Thank goodness my kids have outgrown all of that.
@Emma
Hee hee. Me too. My kids are out of that stage now, too, thankfully. Once in awhile, though, they get a hankering for the games…
@Moon-howler
>>> Everything about Chuck-e-Cheese makes me ill at ease. Unfair question.
Good call! 🙂
>>> I find it odd and also disconcerting that some far right gun guts [sic] and glory types drive moderates on gun ownership into the other camp.
There are “some” people who think the earth is still flat. I wouldn’t worry a lot about it.
Moderates are perfectly welcomed in the “gun nuts” camp. So are those on the Left. It’s not an ideological issue. Really. Some folks just like shootin’ stuff for the fun of it! 😉
I know many on the Left who are extremely pro-gun.
Ring, I agree.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/117361/recent-shootings-gun-control-support-fading.aspx shows that those favoring gun control are in the minority. Interestingly, as gun control laws have been weakened across the US – violent crime and murder rates have gone down.
But, to each thier own. I respect that many on here may not like guns and may never want to have one. I just ask that you respect my choice to be armed and not take away my ability to carry openly or concealed.
And I think shooting stuff is fine, Ring. I just get put off when ideology overtakes common sense. Example: I have 2 friends who have both had their kids get hold of weapons in the house because they had trained their kids not to do this that and the other….and that was the end of it. Both kids shot holes in the wall and nearly killed a sibling. 2 different families, 2000 miles apart. In both cases, the wives were unhappy with the situation and the husbands/fathers prevailed.
I also don’t think being a vet automatically makes a person exempt from mental illness. In fact, in some cases, it probably brings it to the forefront if statistics are to believed. Some of those vets I am related to either by marriage or blood. Sorry to say but a couple of them are or were nuttier than fruitcakes. Many vets are fine upstanding citizens but I don’t evaluate their sanity in terms of their military service.
The mental stability is a main concern of mine when it comes to gun ownership. I don’t know the answer….I just know that the 2nd amendment isn’t without some limitations.
Case in point: John McCain and Amnesty!
Marin, I guess you are free to do as you want within legal confines. You do understand that some people, not necessarily gun haters, are made ill at ease by the behavior you have described. I will be honest, I would be less ill at ease in a more rural area. In a crowded area like NoVA, the aggitation increases.
On the other hand, I understand hobbies and I understand political issues that people are not willing to compromise on. I have one but this isn’t it.
Actually Slow, I was thinking of Muhammad the sniper. Silly me.
And you know as well as I do that McCain doesn’t want unbridled amnesty.
I don’t think the comfort argument is a good one. Open carry should be mandatory. Covering up the presence of weapons because they bother some people is bad policy. If there are people around who think they need to have instant lethal capability, I want to know who they are and when they are in proximity to me. This will guide my decision as to whether I need to similarly arm myself. It also gives me information about the potential mindset of the person carrying the weapon. If he or she needs to be accompanied by the capability to terminate a life instantly when she goes to the grocery store, I can use that information about whether I want to be there at the same time. As a society we have made a political decision (at least in Virginia, and, to some extent nationally through the Second Amendment) that we will have widespread weapons ownership and availability. Some folks may not like that and some may not like seeing weapons. But if we have them in wide circulation, it is not unreasonable to give the citizens the ability to know when they are in situations where there are a number (or any) weapons. All the crime deterrence arguments will be equally as well fulfilled by mandatory open carriage.