Another article people have to read for themselves appears below, therefore it is posted in its entirety. We are not going to comment from the post. All 3 moderators do not agree on the topic of abortion. Therefore, we will not comment from the post.
UPDATE: Thread titled changed. I just found that too offensive to have sitting there on this blog.
From The Gainesville Times:
Lawmaker: Disabled kids are god’s punishment
February 22, 2010 – 11:27am
RICHMOND – Western Prince William Del. Bob Marshall, R-13th, says disabled children are God’s punishment to women who have aborted their first pregnancy.
He made that statement last Thursday at a press conference to oppose state funding for Planned Parenthood.
“The number of children who are born subsequent to a first abortion with handicaps has increased dramatically. Why? Because when you abort the first born of any, nature takes its vengeance on the subsequent children,” said Marshall, a Republican.
“In the Old Testament, the first born of every being, animal and man, was dedicated to the Lord. There’s a special punishment Christians would suggest.”
Marshall was among more than 20 people, mostly Christian pastors and clergy, who gathered for the press conference in the General Assembly Building.
They called on Virginia officials to eliminate state funding for Planned Parenthood because the organization provides abortions.
“We are gathered this afternoon to draw attention to the unethical, immoral and racist practices of the largest abortion provider in America,” said Dean Nelson, executive director of the Network of Politically Active Christians.
Delegate Brenda Pogge, R-Williamsburg, has joined Marshall in co-sponsoring a budget amendment to eliminate state funding for Planned Parenthood.
“I think that the reason it’s gone on so long is that most people don’t have a clue what’s being paid for by taxpayer dollars,” Pogge said.
The press conference was held by a group called Virginia Christian Action. Its members presented a petition calling on Gov. Bob McDonnell, Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling and Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli to stop funding for Planned Parenthood. All three top officials are Republican.
The petition was signed by a number of prominent Christian leaders, including the Rev. Jonathan Falwell of Lynchburg and the Rev. Pat Robertson of Virginia Beach.
McDonnell has publicly supported calls to cut off funding for Planned Parenthood. His predecessor, Democrat Tim Kaine, supported funding for Planned Parenthood.
“Looking at it from a cultural, historical perspective, this organization should be called ‘Planned Barrenhood’ because they have nothing to do with families, they have nothing to do with responsibility,” Marshall said.
Nelson suggested that the organization be called “Klan Parenthood,” saying that the group’s founder, Margaret Sanger, made racist comments in the 1930s and that the organization has shown a “willingness to take donations from people who are racist.”
According to Marshall, Planned Parenthood receives “about $500,000 a year” from the state.
But Jessica Honke, director of public policy for Planned Parenthood Advocates of Virginia, said the only state funding Planned Parenthood receives is from Medicaid reimbursements. That amount was about $35,000 in the 2009 fiscal year, according to the Department of Medical Assistance Services.
Planned Parenthood provides a wide range of gynecological and other health services, from cancer screening and HIV prevention to birth control for low-income women. Honke pointed out that abortions represent a minority of the group’s services.
At the press conference, the Rev. Joe Ellison, vice president of the Council on Biblical Principles, said that when he was in college, he paid for girlfriends to get abortions. He said he still feels guilty about that today.
Ellison said he was “declaring war against Planned Parenthood.”
“We’re asking pastors to shut them down in the community. We’re asking pastors to pray them out. And we’re asking Planned Parenthood to leave our children alone,” Ellison said.
In 2008, the Senate approved a budget amendment to eliminate funding for Planned Parenthood. However, that proposal was not included in the final state budget.
Copyright 2010 The Gainesville Times. All rights reserved.
http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/sanger_margaret.html
interview from 1957 with Mike Wallace and Margaret Sanger
from Sanger:
“As Sanger worked in New York’s Lower East Side with poor women who were repeatedly suffering due to frequent childbirth and self induced abortions, she began to speak out for the need of women to become knowledgeable about birth control. While she was working on duty as a nurse, Sanger met Sadie Sachs when she was called to her apartment to assist her after she had become extremely ill due to a self-induced abortion. Afterward, Sachs begged the attending doctor to tell her how she could prevent this from happening again, to which the doctor simply gave the advice to remain abstinent.[4] A few months later, Sanger was once again called back to Sach’s apartment, only this time, Sachs was found dead after yet another self-induced abortion.[4] This was a turning point in Sanger’s life. Sachs’ predicament was not at all uncommon during that time period. [6] Sanger came to believe then, more than ever, that she needed to do something to help desperate women before they were driven to pursue dangerous and illegal abortions.[4]”
Best answer yet. 😉
Elena – thanks for the link to the Harry Ransom Center. Lot’s of interesting things there. With the old Mike Wallace interviews and everything else they’ve got on that site I’ll have to avoid the temptation to be there all day rather than work.
Need to Know, I pretty much agree with you on paragraph 1. We will not agree on whether abortion should be legal or not. I think it is important that not all politics becomecome stymied over that issue. I don’t think it should be a political issue.
As for the 3 of us disagreeing-very true and we did not let it get in the way of the business we felt we had to do. I suppose we handled the different feelings like everything else….respect among friends and we steered away from the subject of abortion as a topic. There are other topics that we don’t go out of our way to hash and rehash also.
More @ Need to Know,
I wanted to separate the paragraph of agreement from what I am about to say next:
Now…here comes the big blast. You informed me that I don’t consider a fetus a person. I am speechless that you would tell ME what I think or don’t think.
You don’t know how I feel about it at all. I have said over and over and perhaps you missed it, my personal feelings are not my public policy feelings.
I would venture to say you have talked to very few pro choice people if you make that statement. Let me say the following, and it goes against my grain to reveal this much personal information: I have had 2 pregnancies and 2 children (who resulted from the 2 pregnancies). (I also have step children but they don’t figure in to this conversation) In both cases, they were wanted pregnancies. From the minute I suspected I was pregnant, both of those ‘fetuses’ who grew to become my son and daughter were very much babies to me, even thought they were still pretty much at the multicellular level.
Did they have legal personhood? Nope. And they would not until they were born. It was all my state of mine because I wanted them.
Now I am going to stop and I am going to talk to a very close personal friend who did not have the same experience I had. I will discuss this further next week. Part 2 of this topic is better left until next week for a variety of reasons.
Her first pamphlet read:
“It is a vicious cycle; ignorance breeds poverty and poverty breeds ignorance. There is only one cure for both, and that is to stop breeding these things. Stop bringing to birth children whose inheritance cannot be one of health or intelligence. Stop bringing into the world children whose parents cannot provide for them. Herein lies the key of civilization. For upon the foundation of an enlightened and voluntary motherhood shall a future civilization emerge.[28]”
One must remember the era in which she was living. Which countries are the most wealthy and stable, those countries where education is possible, as is the ability for women to control their child birthing destiny.
Need to Know,
Loved the part with Mike Wallace and his advertisement for smoking!!! Geez, we sure have come along way in the perception of smoking.
@Elena
Elena, the Sadie Sachs story is most compelling… thank you for sharing that.
@Moon-howler
H-h, its a shame that those of us who simply want to offer women the right to chose based upon their personal beliefs are often backed into a corner as “pro-abortion”. I’m anti-abortion in principle; however, I recognize that the strength of our Republic is based upon respecting different points of view. When religious beliefs become public policy in any one area, where does it end?
Isn’t this the issue we are fighting in Afghanistan (Preventing El Quada from implementing an Islamic Caliphate to Govern the world)? Wasn’t this Country founded by people who were seeking freedom from Theocratic Governments and intolerance? I just can’t reconcile a war overseas to prevent this while a group within our borders is promoting it.
I respect everyone’s beliefs and opinions and their right to act on and observe same (as long as they don’t hurt other people)… I just don’t want to live in a theocracy based upon one set of religious principles. Once we start with one issue, where will it end?
Is this what it’s come to? …people so interested in imposing their beliefs on others via public policy that some of our citizens will be forced to leave the Country to pursue their beliefs and personal choices? That is not what the founding fathers had in mind.
Moon, I apologize if I was presumptuous. I did not intend to be. My understanding of the pro-choice position is that personhood begins at birth while the pro-life position is that personhood begins with conception in the womb.
Elena – I agree. Mike Wallace pushing Phillip Morris, the “natural” smoke. Did you see the full menu of interviews they have? I could spend days watching that time capsule.
said “I respect everyone’s beliefs and opinions and their right to act on and observe same (as long as they don’t hurt other people)… I just don’t want to live in a theocracy based upon one set of religious principles.”
I could NOT agree more. Well said.
@Opinion
Marshall’s comments remind me of why I have trouble with many people who consider themselves to be “conservative”, and the social groups and blogs that some of them form. All too often they are demented maniacs, believing they talk to God and implement his will, who really have little regard for human beings or humanity while they live out their weird fantasies.
Rick, sounds like you’ve read bvbl’s thread on the topic. 😉
Demented manics, I like it. Good one.
Need to know, thanks and accepted. You know, I have never heard any of my pro choice friends discuss when personhood begins. I believe that legally, the constitution is the answer but that isn’t what we are really talking about.
The pro choice people I know believe that women are capable of making their own moral decisions and that the government is to butt out. Its more about WHO decides.
As far as fetal rights, I think that there is a great deal of variance on that issue also. Certainly the closer to term one gets, the more repugnant abortion becomes. I am going to speak with 2 friends over the weekend on this topic. I will get back to you after I talk to them. I want to make sure my own perspective isn’t the only one I am putting out here. As you can tell from my reproductive bio, I am lacking some perspective on some fronts.
I think it is good we are discussing this topic. If we all go off in our own corners, not much will ever be solved.
Rick, He’s bbbaaaaaaaaccckkkk!!! Welcome back. I missed your…Hell I don’t know what I missed. My fingers will fall off if I tell you I missed you. (but I did)
Elena, thanks so much for that Margaret Sanger link. What a brave woman.
She has definitely been vilified. I see her as a hero. Before anyone gets on their high horse about eugenics etc, our attitudes about smoking have changed a great deal over the years also. I feel that a thread on who is Margaret Sanger needs to be developed.
Remember Griswold vs. Connecticut wasn’t decided until 1967. That is horrifying.
Mike Wallace’s entire tone with disrespectful to Margaret Sanger who was obviously his senior. Could it be because she was a woman?
He puffs away on his cigarette, is disrespectful to Ms. Sanger, asks insulting questions, and that old codger is 92 years old. I suppose we have to put him in that category of things changing. He sure wouldn’t get by with that crap today.
Link to the video:
http://blog.vcu.edu/cns/2010/02/delegate-disabled-kids-are-gods-punishment.html
Mr. Marshall is trying to “weather the storm” by blaming VCU and the student journalist who reported his comments.
Backpeddling into a ditch:
http://www.wtvr.com/news/wtvr-delegate-marshall-responds,0,7189783.story
More of Marshall blaming the VCU student:
http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/local/va-del-marshall-clarifies-disabled-children-abortion-remarks-022310
The session was recorded. He can’t weasel out of what he said.
Here is the full quote, which Marshall leaves out in his “explanation” which is posted on FOX:
“The number of children who are born subsequent to a first abortion with handicaps has increased dramatically. Why? Because when you abort the first born of any, nature takes its vengeance on the subsequent children,” said Marshall, a Republican.
“In the Old Testament, the first born of every being, animal and man, was dedicated to the Lord. There’s a special punishment Christians would suggest.”
There is no doubt about it–he is “suggesting” women are punished with disabled children. Look at the juxtaposition of the words he used.
Apparently, in his world, God takes his wrath out on children and mothers, whether they have had abortions or not.
Read “Betrayed by Bob Marshall” http://realityblah.blogspot.com/
Where’s Sarah Palin’s angry condemnation of Marshall?
He’s “lashing out” at the VCU student news organization and made a 7-minute speech accusing the news service of “making an unsupported conclusion about his remarks.”
http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=25&sid=1896751
He just doesn’t get it. The news service stands by its report.
Bob Marshall needs to claim ownership of this one rather than finger-pointing at others. He is every bit as bad as one of those frat boys he admonishes. He needs to man up and just take responsibility for his own behavior.
Those of us in the health professions would call this affliction “organic brain syndrome” (OBS).
Since when do Christians hew to the Old Testament? I’m far from a biblical scholar, but I remember Jesus’s disciples were criticized when they sat down to eat without undergoing the proper Levitical washing rituals. Jesus stood up for them by saying that he had come to abolish the old law, and then I think he passed around the Purell.
Unfortunately, when people say stupid things about what they feel are God’s punishments, they undermine whatever other good things they might be doing to benefit their constituents. It becomes a needless and offensive distraction. Take the log out of your own eye, Bobby.
The best fight in town is over on the dark screen Gospel Greg and Pontificating Patty are at it again.
Some poor soul is tearing them up but they are too blinded by the light to see it.
There is also a problem in one of the sandboxes. Big Daddy is having to baby sit. It looks like some bad little boy bloggers got time out.
Agreed, Emma.
Rick, I wouldn’t count on Palin to come out swinging. She sure didn’t swing at Rush when he repeated the word ‘retard.’
Marshall needs to back down. He has embarrassed our state enough.
Ahhhhh… the bible…. always a reliable reference for Government policy… and certainly full of pro-life references that could become law such as these classics:
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
And my personal favorite… But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
And people wonder why we are afraid of folks like Bob Marshall in a position of authority…
@Opinion
LOLOLOL! Oh, that’s rich, Opinion.
It does indeed amaze me when people pick and choose what they want to inflict on others as the word of God.
I am quite sure God is horrified.
Facebook page against Marshall:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=317057881641
(found on Richmond Times Dispatch)
@Opinion “anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.”
Don’t let my teenagers get wind of that one. They won’t do squat on weekends for fear of getting “stoned.”
Okay, I changed my name calling(smacking myself,lol) from nipple head to BOBblehead…. 😉
I have always believed that God has a great sense of humor… my favorite poster (for which I paid more than it is worth) is “The Laughing Jesus”. When the Bible was written, I’m guessing God used some of the same folks who write for Seinfeld and Saturday Night Live (SNL)…
If two Israelite men are fighting and the wife of one tries to rescue her husband by grabbing the testicles of the other man, her hand must be cut off without pity. (Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NLT)
That would make a GREAT SNL skit. I can see God laughing on his throne because people actually believe this stuff…
Emma,
“I’m far from a biblical scholar, but I remember Jesus’s disciples were criticized when they sat down to eat without undergoing the proper Levitical washing rituals. Jesus stood up for them by saying that he had come to abolish the old law, and then I think he passed around the Purell.” LOL!!!! More like Ivory (snow)….I can say this because I believe my God/
Jesus has a sense of humor and it shows…he know I am not mocking him by saying this because he is real and shows me everyday…serious on that! LOL People run from him because they think he is SCARY and it is so not true! ( my belief)
Just so there is no misunderstanding, I was LAUGHING with you Emma on the Purell/Ivory comment ( and went into explanation of why I am laughing, NOT mocking 🙂
It sounds like honor killing, if one were to literally interpret the bible, would be acceptable. Oh, wait, don’t we cringe in horror when we hear of honor killings in the name of Allah. I guess even bob is a cafeteria “catholic”. Not saying he is catholic, but I am saying he clearly would not advocate cutting off people hands or stoning them.
You know, the Qur’an and the Bible are very similar. The Qur’an teaches that Jesus is a messenger of God just like Mohamed; however, it does not recognize his divine nature. Islamic Scholars recognize that many of the Stories in the Qur’an are the same as those found in the Old Testament and use it as a reference.
There are more similarities among the worlds great religions than differences. The roots of Judaism, Islam and Christianity are the same. It’s a shame that we can’t focus on the things we agree on… and instead look for differences.
…except for the stoning and that cutting off hands thing, of course.
Opinion,
Well said, once again.
I think it’s much easier for some to be a “Negative Nelly” than be a “Positive Pete”. We all will never see eye to eye on all matters, and therefore we all must compromise. Unfortunately too many see compromise and/or tolerance as defeat/weakness. Wake up people. We all have some common ground, but some are just not willing to find it. 🙁