How sad for all concerned. Given: One of the poorest communities in Rhode Island and the rigors of No Child Left Behind (which is what is behind all this educational crisis.) Depending on who you talk to, there are lots of fingers being pointed. Faulty statistics are being bandied about. Administration is drawing its line in the sand. Teachers have refused to take on extra burdens without compensation. The teachers’ union doesn’t seem to be supporting the teachers. Somewhere out there, there is the truth. I expect it is in the middle.

The one missing part of the puzzle seems to be what the students are doing. What is the community doing? How fast can attitudes in poor, immigrant communities be turned around? Should teachers of students in low achieving communities be compared to teachers in wealthier areas?

Who will be willing to go in and replace all those teachers? The nation will need a million new teachers by 2014. Where will they all come from? When will communities, parents and students start to assume responsibility for their own learning? You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. After all, its all about accountability.

The Rhode Island teachers will have the last laugh, in all probability. The data-driven replacement crowd will come in all full of themselves and will soon find out that perhaps the job isn’t so easy. The newcomers will probably not do much better, they will burn out and move on. And one day very soon, there will be no one to teach the children. Younger people simply will not want to put up with the insult and there are lots of easier ways to earn $75,000. (that amount was NOT starting pay, btw)

53 Thoughts to “R.I. Community in Crisis When all Teachers Fired”

  1. Lucky Duck

    If a student’s parents or sibilings do not reinforce what was presented in class and ensures that thestudent does their homework or become involved, at least in a minimal way, in their child’s education, chances are that child will fail.

    This school has a huge percentage of students that are in poverty and where English is their second language. Two strikes against student success before they even walk in the door of the school.

    Its not the teachers, you could put Nobel Prize winners in front of those classes and the kids will still fail. The community issues need to be addressed in conjunction with the education the students are receiving. Yes, some students will pass no matter the odds. But most will fail with these odds against them, regardless of what the teachers do in class.

    These teachers are scapegoats.

  2. I totally agree, Lucky Duck. Thanks for your input.

    And that is one of the major failings with NCLB. It falsely assumes all kids are motivated the same and that all kids learn at the same rate.

  3. El Guapo

    The teachers haven’t been fired YET. They have been fired on paper only to take effect at the end of the school year. In addition, the option is open for individuals to be rehired. It seems more like a tactic employed in negotiations with the union than anything else.

    We’ll see how it plays out.

  4. I believe I heard that half could be hired back. It is still a very demoralizing thing to do to people who already don’t feel like they can meet objectives.

    There are lots of people at the top who simply cannot bring themselves to tell the truth.

  5. Wolverine

    Did I not hear President Obama recently put out a new proposal for Federal aid to failing schools? As best I can recall, he stated that a quid pro quo for Federal aid might be the firing of the administrators and many of the teachers at a school perceived to be in deep trouble. Given that a place like the Los Angeles Unified School District has a drop-our rate of 60 percent or so (unlike Massachusetts, which recently announced only a 3 to 4 percent drop-out rate), such a policy could make Los Angeles look like a scholastic desert. I go along with Lucky Duck on this one. A major problem which must be addressed is the community which is feeding those students into the failing schools. Otherwise you may just be flailing at air.

  6. I do not agree with President Obama’s stand on this one. The community and the parents and the students need to come to school ready to learn for starters. The community and parents must put a value on education. Until that happens, as Lucky Duck stated, you could send in Nobel Prize winners and affect very little change.

  7. Happy Harry

    As a teacher, I’m torn on this one. The graduation rate for this school was 48%. That’s unacceptable, regardless of the community. And, to set the record straight (one of my friends lives near this area), it’s not an “immigrant” community, it’s a drug infested community with families that don’t give a s**t

    The teacher’s union screwed the teachers big time. The school board proposed that the teachers work an additional 30 minutes to provide instruction IN EXCHANGE for 90 minutes of planning – meaning that while 30 minutes would be added to the day, but they would be guaranteed 90 minutes of protected planning time. The school board even would compensate the teachers at $30 an hour for any tutoring they did above and beyond the school day. The union fought back and wanted $90 an hour (which is unreasonable), at which the school board balked. And I don’t blamed them for rejecting it – if the community is as poor as reported, that money could better be spent on materials, instructional supplies, additional staff, etc than paying $90 for tutoring. Not even places like Sylvan and Huntington Learning Center charge $90 an hour, nor do any private tutors that I know of.

    The teacher’s also hold some blame in this. It goes both ways – and as a teacher, I’m tired of teachers arguing that it’s the families fault. To some extent, it is. But, as a teacher, your job is to make sure that the students are understanding what you are teaching. Under NCLB, the state can only step in after 3 years of a school failing, meaning that this school has been failing for a long time. The school board tried to work with the teachers and instead of working together, the union got pitted against the school board and the teachers lost.

    If this were a business that was only functioning at 48%, or only producing 48% of a product instead of, say, 85%, wouldn’t it be reasonable to fire those who were underperforming?

    I probably have an unpopular stance on this, but as someone who has dedicated their life to education, there needs to be more accountability on both sides of the fence.

  8. Captain Idiot-Face

    The federal government has no Constitutional business in Education. It breeds inefficiency.

  9. Wolverine

    Happy Harry — Mrs. Wolverine is in the teaching business. She tells me often how remarkable it has been to see the teaching versus class discipline ratio change so radically at the high school level over the past few decades. Her take is that the teachers, no matter how competent and dedicated, are too frequently spending time on discipine and consequently suffering a big loss of actual teaching time. That has to be in large part a function of family failure. Boy, I may be an old geezer now; but, if I had done some of the things in school which she has described to me, my Old Man would have been waiting for me at the door to our house with razor strop in hand, teenager or no teenager.

  10. marinm

    Harry,

    Not at all. At least I agree with you.

    “Half the student body is failing every subject, with 55 percent meeting requirements in reading and only 7 percent in math.” – CNN. Think about this. 7% of the student body is meeting requirements in math at the high school level – what were they doing in middle school or elementary schools? Why did those teachers pass those students?

    It’s almost as if instead of failing a student to get them another year of schooling at the appropriate level for them that the simple answer is to just check the box and get them to the next level to maintain passing rates. This idea that by doing so that the next teacher will catch them up or somehow this is providing for deferred success…non-sense. How is a high school diploma worth anything if the recipient can’t read, write or manipulate numbers?

    That the dispute also centers around the Union’s insistance on a very high pay rate for it’s teachers — when it knows the area is financially troubled to begin with – also shows the priority of the teachers union and any teacher that agrees with the union position.

    Bless Virginia for being a right-to-work state without collective bargaining for public service employees.

  11. Wolverine, my parents would have too. re razor strap.
    Back in the day, how you behaved in school was very much a reflection on your parents. Only low class people allowed their children to act like jerks in school.

  12. PWC Taxpayer

    Does Rhode Island have an alternative school/private school voucher program or are these students and the community locked into this very bad situation — one that some will argue just needs more money thrown at it – as if that has been the solution in DC.

    Now I know there are a lot of folks out there that want to blame the parents and the community at large – the old “it takes a village” scam. But some strong medicince here may protect these kids and others in other locations. Once closed, don’t just re-hire, the school should be reopened as a private endevor. Good teachers, committed teaching professionals will flock to well run schools.

  13. HH, Central Falls is immigrant and poor. About 47% is Latino, 5% black, and the median household income is something like $22,000 per year. Poverty begets poverty. Rough figures. Its the smallest but most densely populated city in Rhode Island.

    I believe it was American Federation of Teachers who really let the teachers down here. Its easy to sit here in PWC where the median household income is $80k and make pronouncements about the quality of the teaching staff at Central Falls HS. NCLB sanctions are rough at best. None of the 4 restructuring options are for sissies. The best thing for education is just do away with NCLB. It is leaving a nation behind.

    I want to see where that superintendent finds 90 people stupid enough to go in and replace those poor beleaguered teachers who are fired at the end of the year.

  14. Taxpayer, you are truly making me want to laugh. I expect committed teaching professionals made up 90% of who just got fired. You have a one size fits all law (NCLB) doing a restructure on a crumbling school with a weak community structure.

    I have an idea…let’s let the custodians teach the kids. That will show them thar techers.

    The smaller the school system the less wiggle room to spread problems out and/or fix them. Compare Manassas City to PWC for starters. The one high school vs 11 high schools.

    You put that same school down in the middle of a county where there are several high schools and start moving some things round and you would see some different results on paper. The same problems would be there, probably unsolved, but they just wouldn’t look as glaring.

  15. Happy Harry

    I’m not arguing that the community needs to be involved. FTR, the person who I am friends with lives near this community and has said that the school has been going down hill for years – that while there is no parent involvement, the teachers are also very hesitant to change. “Stick with the status quo” set in a long time ago.

    I take issue with the fact that you say it’s easy to sit in PWC and make judgment on the teachers. If this were in PWC, would you be as quick to defend the teachers? If your local school or the school your child/grandchild attends had a 7% pass rate in math and a 48% graduation rate, I’d be screaming for heads to roll.

    There are communities within VA that have the same issues – I student taught in one. Charlotte County – one high school, one middle school, two elementary schools. A majority of the population was on free lunch, high levels of unemployment, most of the working adults worked at the local factory (which I think was a pillow making factory). And you know what? They had close to a 100% graduation rate. They were also named a school of the year by Time Magazine. There was also little parental involvement. Many of the parents worked 2 and 3 jobs to keep food on the table. When it was harvesting time, many students were absent to help out on the family farm. Those teachers would work around the clock to meet the needs of their students – without pay.

    I completely agree that AFT screwed the teachers. Big time.

  16. marinm

    I’m curious (I just don’t know) – what is the objection to NCLB? I mean, I can see an objection to it from the POV that the federales shouldn’t be telling schools what to do and DOEd should be liquidated and the proceeds of which should be given back to taxpayers but… what is your objection to it?

  17. Happy Harry

    @Wolverine

    Totally agree with you. I am in and out of 10 different high schools and middle schools each week. The behavior of the students is reprehensible.

    I went to the same high school that my father taught in. I was taught early on to toe the line and behave. I think there was only one time that I cut class in four years for fear of embarrassing my father.

    A majority of an administrator’s time is spent dealing with behavior. I had to do an administrative internship a few years ago at a PWC high school (which shall remain nameless). I was assigned 2 hours a day to work under an assistant principal. A majority of those 2 hours were dealt with following up on discipline referrals, “counseling” students regarding said referrals, assigning detention and contacting parents re: discipline problems.

    I can’t tell you the number of times that I had a parent say that they couldn’t do anything about their child’s behavior. Really? How about taking away their car for starters? Taking cell phones/PS3/Wii/XBOX away? Only allowing them to leave the house for school?

    My favorite story (at another PWC high school I worked at):
    I was in the assistant principal’s office to talk about something and she got a phone call from a parent while we were meeting. The parent was calling because her daughter had gotten a referral for violating the dress code and the parent had been called to come bring her daughter a change of clothes. The mother’s response to the assistant principal?

    “If my daughter’s got it, she’s going to flaunt it”

    Nice, huh?

  18. PWC Taxpayer

    Moon, are you really that naive? This school has failed its students and its community. Change – dramatic change is needed and right on cue all you want is exactly what the unions asked for/demanded — more of the same and more public money.

  19. Happy Harry

    PWC Taxpayer :
    Good teachers, committed teaching professionals will flock to well run schools.

    Totally agree. Those schools that are the strongest are the ones that have a strong administration to back both the students and the teachers.

  20. Taxpayer, I have forgotten more about education than you have ever learned. You might want to read between the lines on that one.

  21. PWC Taxpayer

    Call Moon, lets see what you got.

  22. Virginia only has a 75% graduation rate.

    According to Virginia.gov:

    The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) uses a different formula to estimate graduation rates among the states. (See Data Definitions and Sources.) According to the NCES, Virginia’s high school graduation rate in 2007 (most current year available) was 75.5 percent, the 29th highest in the country. Virginia’s graduation rate has consistently been above the national average, which in 2007 was 73.9 percent. Virginia had a higher graduation rate than Tennessee (72.6%) and North Carolina (68.6%), but a lower rate than Maryland (80.0%). The leading state, Vermont, had an 88.6 percent graduation rate.

  23. HH, what if donkeys flew? No, and my children did go to PWC schools. I wouldn’t be after the teachers, I would be thinking it was time for some new real estate.

    Furthermore, has your friend been in that school? Unless you have been in the school and witnessed how those teachers relate to their jobs, it is rather unfair to say they don’t accept change. If that is the case, I would be giving the superintendent the boot since she only has one freaking high school to oversee. I looked at about 20 videos before selecting the one that is up in addition to following the story on TV for the past week or so. Those weren’t all old moss back teachers at that school. There were some young folks teaching there.

    Administration is going to have to take on some drastic measures to create change there…radical change to get the students to buy into the program and break chronic acceptance of ignorance and poverty. Teacher training might include courses in Ruby Payne School Improvement Plan that address the poverty. http://www.ahaprocess.com/

    In schools where education of females is not valued and boys often leave school early to become bread winners or to help out the family, poverty is a hard cycle to break. A 50% graduation rate is not all that bad.

  24. Teachers working in low income and troubled schools are under the gun from all sides. How well does Jane learn when Dad went to jail last weekend? How well can Johnny learn when his family can’t afford eye glasses for him? How is a teacher supposed to make up for the fact that Timmy was up all night watching television because Mom had to work and big brother was passed out on the couch? Teachers cannot do it alone. And neither can parents. Everyone needs support from a variety of sources.

    Every teacher who has ever worked with my children has been committed. They might not be perfect, but they have done the best they could to ensure all students have a shot at success. And yes, I am talking about PWC schools. But I am not talking about troubled schools.

    My high school was a mess, and the teachers just did the best they could. Some of the teachers couldn’t cope. But they cared. What would have happened if the school assumed these teachers didn’t care or weren’t performing? Would they have fired those teachers? Suppose they did. Then what would happen? They would have hired a bunch of newbies who, under NCLB, would have to be fired too.

    Support your teachers, train your teachers and teach your kids to have respect. Get support for teachers, parents and kids. That’s how we make schools more successful.

  25. Happy Harry

    Moon-howler :
    A 50% graduation rate is not all that bad.

    You can’t be serious. 50% graduation rate is NOT BAD?

    Sorry, but we disagree on this one. I’m done trying to get my point across. Let’s just hire the teachers back and continue the cycle of failure. Great for our future.

  26. Happy Harry

    And a 75% graduation rate is nothing to crow about, either.

  27. Happy Harry

    This digs under my skin. 50% is failure – if you get a 50 on a term paper, test, essay, whatever – that’s an F.

    If a doctor does an operation 50% correctly, are you okay with that? If my car mechanic only fixes my brakes 50%, is that good enough? If the fire department only puts out 50% of the fire raging at my house, I should just shrug it off?

    Research has shown (and continues to show) that if you have high expectations, you get them.

    And where did you get the information that females in the school weren’t valued? Or are you reaching?

  28. Happy Harry

    Posting As Pinko :
    My high school was a mess, and the teachers just did the best they could. Some of the teachers couldn’t cope.

    If a teacher can’t do their job, then they need to be fired or quit. Period. When will people understand that teachers spend more time with a child during the day than any other adult? You can’t just say “good enough for today” and pray that it works. You have to actually WORK at it. Anyone who has been in education knows this – you have to be dedicated and analytic about your instruction. You have to push students.

    You can’t do anything about what happens after school. You can’t. If Johnny doesn’t have glasses, then the teacher needs to talk to the school social worker and get him glasses (there are programs that the Lions run that give free glasses and eye exams to children on free lunch). If Dad just went to jail, then Jane is probably in a better home situation than she was before – considering that he might have been a drunk, abusive, drug using, stealing, etc, etc. If Timmy’s brother is cutting it, then call social services and get it taken care of.

    I’m sick and f**king tired of the continual excuses made for teachers – and this is the main reason that teachers aren’t seen as professionals. Because those who are “teachers” (or claim to be) give excuse after excuse for poor teaching. And that’s what it is – poor teaching.

    If teachers want to be seen as professionals, then they need to start acting like it. They need to start being responsible for instruction, improving graduation rates and helping our students get ready to compete in a global economy. We are failing miserably at this.

  29. 50% graduation rate for that school in that little town is probably good. Would it be good for Stonewall Jackson High School or Osbourn Park? Absolutely not.

    In many cultures it is not as important for females to have an education as it is for a male. Reaching? No. It is a given. Kicked around the block a time or 2. It isn’t uncommon for Latino girls to be kept home from school to help care for little ones if someone gets work 2 days a week.

    Actually, its a pretty simple concept with immigrants from most places who do unskilled or semi skilled labor. For people who come to this country to make a better living, their ability to work long, hard hours is what is valuable to them and what puts food on the table. Often that value is passed on to the kids, especially with first generation families.

    The longer the family is in the states, the more valuable education becomes. 2nd and 3rd generations become more educated.

    One major flaw inherent in teachers is their inability to understand what it means to grow up NOT being middle class. That’s the reason that training programs like that provided by Ruby Payne is invaluable to those teaching in low income schools where there is generational poverty.

  30. And I am assuming that you are home sick today, Harry?

    You are a little rough on your colleagues. What would be their opinion of you? [raising an eyebrow]

  31. HH, how can you tell any child s/he is better off with their parent in jail?

    I also wonder where your personal rage is coming from.

  32. Happy Harry

    Actually, yes – I’m home on a personal day today (work being done in the house).

    I’m done. If 50% is okay for you, then fine. I would hope that the school I send my children to have higher aspirations than a 50% graduation rate.

    I have a good relationship with the teachers that I work with, thank you very much. But that’s probably because the teachers that I work with are dedicated to their profession, want children to succeed and are willing to put in the time to see that it happens. How did your colleagues see you?

    How many years have you spent in education? Why is it that when teachers demand more from their colleagues, it’s assumed that they are bitches or a$$holes? Why is it that when an administrator demands professionalism, they are criticized by teachers? Because teaching has, and will continue to be, seen as a joke. You know, “those who can’t, teach” kind of BS. And I’m tired of it. And teachers such as yourself and Pinko continue to push that image. “It’s not our fault! It’s an immigrant community to blame. It’s parents that are absent to blame! It’s poverty to blame!” As I’ve said, it’s got to be a GLOBAL EFFORT, not just

    Obviously, you feel that it’s okay to have teachers that are ineffective in classrooms and to make excuses. I pray that my child has teachers that are more effectual than that.

  33. Happy Harry

    Let’s see Pinko –

    I work in a profession that is seen as a joke, for reasons such as this. And yet, as I stated above, when you push others to do better, you get criticized by others in your profession because they want an easy job.

    Teaching isn’t easy – and it shouldn’t be. You are working with children, day in and day out. You are forming their education and the attitude of “eh, I tried” doesn’t cut it.

    And if that parent is abusive, drunk, using drugs, then I would say that the child is better off and in a safer environment than she/he was while the parent was in the home.

    Bah – it’s hard to talk educational issues to those that have no or minimal experience. I don’t have “personal rage”, I’m passionate about my career and profession – which means weeding out those that took a job in teaching to get easy work hours or to get summers off.

  34. Captain Idiot-Face

    If you ask me (and I totally understand nobody asked me), it all goes back to parenting. I’m much less concerned with whatever liberal hogwash most (NOT ALL) teachers will try to mislead my kids with as I am with my keeping track of what is going on and being involved in my kids’ education. Secondary concerns….teacher’s unions need to be crushed, humiliated, and otherwise burned to the ground…….third, inject a little more free market into Education, and you’ll see some awesome stuff! And I know, “what about the poor kids whose parents are in jail?” “How could you be so mean to them, you racist, homophobe, meany?” You can’t fix that kind of crap with entitlements, and I don’t want to pay for it. Tough.

  35. Wolverine

    Happy Harry’s comments about those schools in Charlotte County really does cut to the chase. My background is blue collar all the way. Neither Dad nor Mom were much involved in our schools at a personal level except to attend athletic events in which their sons participated. They both worked hard to put food on the table. Their influence on the importance of personal discipline, good behavior, and getting education came not from involvement with the school system but around the dinner table and virtually everwhere else in our family life. Dad and his friends were factory workers, but they had mucho pride of family. You knew you had better not cross old Dad by behaving badly outside the home or it would be a long time before you saw the keys to the family car again. On top of that, my old Granddad was reinforcement. He only got through the fourth grade and was a celery farmer in the creek-side muck for most of his life, but if you messed up out there at school and he heard about it, well……

  36. marinm

    Wolverine,

    My dad is blue collar all the way. Had 3 jobs while I was an infant and he and my mom raised me and my 3 latino siblings very well. We grew up knowing that our ‘job’ was to goto school and learn (we’re 1st generation btw). Sure we’d help out around the house and do the activities that our parents wanted us to do but priority #1 was our studies.

    We weren’t always the best of students (I started to really slack in school as I learned to love playing on my computer) but we all graduated. My sister went to college and graduated from GMU (1st in our family – ever) and I went into the computer field – now I’m a security analyst for a defense contractor. Make a very good living for not having college credentials. But, I read anything I can get my hands on.

    It obviously starts at home. If the parents aren’t motivating or reinforcing what’s being taught at school – we’re just throwing good money out the window.

    I’m surprised anyone would be content with a 50% graduation rate. But, maybe that’s the best the public school system can do? Or, maybe its the best those students can do? After all, not every kid grows up to be an astronaut. I do need people to flip my hamburgers and pump my gas.

  37. HH, you are assuming a great deal. I never said how I earned a living. Pretty much rules of your job fit elsewhere. I hate hearing someone cutting down people they don’t know. Don’t you find it strange that everyone you work with is a dedicated professional and all those at Central Falls are lazy sloths who resist change and don’t do anything to motivate kids?

    Furthermore, you need to read carefully. I did not say 50% is acceptable. I said it is not bad for a school the all the issues that Central Falls has.
    Half the kids who start off graduate. We also have no idea how many are transient and how many have come in from other areas. You are dealing with a culture that doesn’t prioritize education and extreme poverty.

    School districts also do not have vocational training like they should in schools where kids need to learn how to make a living right out of school. This is an area I find sorely neglected in American education. NCLB has made this lack of training even worse. Not every kid needs to go to college.

    Wolverine, I am sure Mrs. Wolverine has set you straight about how much things have changed since you were a kid. You can’t even compare.

    Lasty, HH, you do yourself no favors when you make sweeping generalizations criticizing teachers. Everyone knows there are some rotten apples. However, you know what they say about rotten apples. When you make broad generalizations people read it, take it to heart, walk away thinking teachers are crap and then vote call their school board and tell them not to give YOU a raise.

    When you see one of your fellow teachers struggling or looking like they are doing a lousy job, do you offer to help them? Share materials with them? Offer to house a disruptive student for them? give them some pointers? Role play with them? Just listen? It might not make a lousy teacher any good but it just might provide some sort of turn around that changes that person’s outlook and thus their job performance.

  38. It’s true that there is too much of the “not MY kid” attitude out there. Conversely, parents can teach their kids the best they can, just as teachers can, but ultimately, the kid will do what the kid will do. I would say it’s a shared responsibility. “It takes a village.” It takes cooperation. It takes hard work. And above all, it takes positive reinforcement.

    Kids KNOW when adults are being negative about them, the school, the system, the family, etc.

    No apples have ever grown on a tree watered with poison.

  39. And Marin, I wish everyone could tell your story. Good for you and your siblings and parents. Too many parents nowadays don’t seem to have those values.

    I don’t know any other way to say that 50% isn’t what I consider acceptable. 100% is acceptable. However, reality is that 50% for a small town that is 50% immigrant and the median HOUSEHOLD income is $22k, …well its predictable and could be a lot worse. Most school curriculums are not particularly relevant to those not planning on attending college.

    I am feeling like there is an experience and age gap here. Many parents can’t help their kids. They don’t have the skills. Many are working 2-3 jobs. There are no simple answers to complex problems.

    Marin, did you grow up in this area?

  40. Captain Idiot-Face

    @Posting As Pinko

    You know, I’ll actually agree with you a little bit here. I’ll grant that sometimes parents can do everything right, and it still doesn’t work. I still think it’s MOSTLY parenting, but I’ll grant that even the kid with the best parents on Earth can still run afoul.

  41. Happy Harry

    My job consists of working with teachers – in the manners that you suggest. I’m in the classrooms, dealing with problem behaviors, providing staff with materials, co-teaching with staff, consulting with admin on the best practices for students and staff.

    And the county I work for didn’t get a raise last year and won’t get a raise next year. As vocational schools, you are correct. Not every kid is going to college or WANTS to go to college. At least FCPS still has the academies to teach vocational skills (although not as wide spread as before).

    Some parents can’t help their children, MH – you are correct about this. Their educational level or job demands prohibit this. Again, the schools need to step in and help out. Provide afterschool tutoring for free, educate the parents, provide education to the parents to help them get a leg up.

    Sorry if I came off harsh – it’s been a pretty crappy day all around and I’m tired of talking about this subject in RI (several of my friends ask about it). I just wish that teachers would act as professionals.

    The whole Nature vs. Nuture – I don’t have time to go into. I know (as a behaviorist) that children are impacted by what they see and hear growing up, unless they have neurological issues.

    If there is negativity in the school about a child’s family, attitude, behavior, whatever – then it is up to the admin to stamp it out and set it straight.

  42. Diversity Gal

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-ravitch/first-lets-fire-all-the-t_b_483074.html

    …A viewpoint from Diane Ravitch, former United States assistant Secretary of Education (who served under both George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton. She is quite well-respected in her field.

  43. Diversity Gal

    http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/5/protests

    This is a great interview transcript with Diane Ravitch. She used to be a big supporter of No Child Left Behind, and she has now reversed her views. It is worth reading what she has to say about the problems with NCLB and charter schools/the privatization of education. She offers a compelling argument…

  44. DG, both of those were excellent and dead on target. For those who still want to fire the teachers, watch the video and read the article by Diane Ravitch.

    She tells what is wrong with NCLB and why it will become the ruination of the US educational system.

    It is a perfect example of what happens when education and politics merge and what happens when local matters leave the locality.

  45. marinm

    I grew up in Falls Church (2 bedroom appt for the 6 of us). We later moved to PWC when I hit the 8th grade. So, I was in 5 schools in 5 different years (Beachtree Elem, Glasgow Intermediate, Woodbridge Middle, Osborn Park and then finally Hylton HS).

    So far I don’t see an issue with NCLB. At least I haven’t been able to find any rationale against it that doesn’t seem to come from the Union. But, I’ll leave it at that because thats not really the topic being discussed.

    I will add that I emphatically agree that vocational education should be a priority major focus in 9-12 education. Our education system is geared towards pushing students to higher education (college) but not everyone wants or is able to go towards that level of education…and thats OK! Let’s not try to cram down Algebra or Geometry on someone that’s life aspiration is to work at Dairy Queen.

    Let’s reclaim those resources and put it into the kids that want to go further instead of wasting it on those kids that won’t do anything with it anyways. Now, I’m not saying we short-change kids but I think its easy to figure out who wants to go to college and who wants to finish high school and just do something. The world needs both types and I think a major problem we have in the US is that we pump out too many college students and not enough worker bees.

  46. PWC Taxpayer

    HH, good for you — for all the fussing here about rights and job protection and the blame game, you are the kind of teacher I want to see in the system. And let me add one more thing. When I went to school, I was afraid of and yet respected several teachers – who threw things, slammed kids up agaisnt the wall for talking or for not paying attention and yes, I too got to sign the proverbial paddle (was not my fault!!). Its called discipline and I guess the only place its still legal is in the military. Why do you suppose that is? That you still enjoy the job HH and are successful in it with all the restrictions and political correctness that exists today — hey, its a tough job. We need to clean out the bad apples in order to resurrect the reputation of the profession – and that means meaningful standards.

    OK, one more line.. My mother who is in her 90s and has a PHD from NYU in secondary education and Guidance, once said that education began to fall apart when men started to enter the field. Why, because it was not – generally – their profession of choice – whereas women did not have that choice/expectation. There were exceptions then and now and even as a kid – without any understanding of performance metrics – you could tell the difference. Its still true today.

  47. PWC, interesting assessment of education put forth by your mother.

    I do hope you were kidding about corporal punishment being okay in school, however.

  48. PWC Taxpayer

    It was ok and I (we) saw it every day. Did it get out of hand, probably/occasionally and the principle and the family reviewed the situation together. But we understood the rules. Should it be ok today. I think that bus has left the dock. Have we lost something because we have gone to the other extreme of political correctness – I think so. They know the rules. Discipline is not the the equivelent of abuse. Finally, the adjustment from high school to the military was jarring, but it really has to be worse today. I guess its a good thing its all volunteer.

  49. marinm

    I remember growing up that my parents had given standing permission to any adult they trusted or even a few teachers to beat the crap out of me if I ever got out of line.

    Aside from the twitching every once in awhile, I grew up to be well adjusted.

    Discipline is a major issue in our public education system.

  50. marin, you probably behaved yourself because of that standing permission.

    Now here comes the caveat: I expect there is a 30 year difference in your age and Tax’s. Would both of you all give an age range for yourselves…like what decade you graduated from high school.

    The discipline situation is a huge problem in schools today. I am not sure being able to beat the crap out of kids is a good idea. I have seen it abused. I think a good swat at the elementary level by the principal with a witness sends a good message. It gets one’s attention.

    Marin, the reason I asked is because someone educated in NoVa is going to have a different perspective than someone who was educated say in Texas. (or elsewhere)

    Actually NCLB is the engine driving the train behind this entire thread, so Tax, it is very much on topic. Watch both the film that Diversity gal left. Vry enlightening. It is also from someone who crossed over to the dark side.

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