The criticism about volunteering for Candidate Obama and Senator Webb seems rather bogus to me. What person in any grassroots movement hasn’t been involved with other campaigns. I would expect most people from the ‘other hot beverage’ group worked for their candidate. Just recently, in fact, some TPP in Massachusetts claimed credit for sending Senator Scott Brown to Washington.
I don’t see how nearly 100,000 people on face book can be considered a top down movement. It sounds to me like people are finding their regional niche and going for it. Hopefully out of all of this, people in various locations will meet other people who are willing to run for local office. Throwing the bums out starts at home.
Good for those who are making their voices heard. The political parties need to listen carefully to the constituents. Meanwhile, Annabel, you sounded great! Keep up the good work.
yes, me too. I kept saying I was going to sleep early tonight………………..Aren’t you expecting an addition to your clan soon?
I noticed in the blog that some comments championed the Tea Party as “grass roots” vs the
“Obama administration supported Coffee Party.
Just to set the record straight: The Tea Party is not a “grass roots” movement, it is a cleverly
organized group supported by Dick Armey and his Freedom Works Lobbying Firm that was established to disrupt Town Meetings so there could be no honest discourse on the Health Care Issue. There may in fact be many in the Tea Party who are looking fo honest change but they are “Overshadowed” by the professional disruptors!
You’re a good little soldier, you covered everything Nancy Pelosi wanted you to say! You DID miss using the word astroturf, though. Next time you put together a string of talking points, try not to forget the word “astroturf”. So are these also the folks that bombed the Pentagon with a cruise missile? Those “wascally disruptors”!
Slow, he didn’t personalize that message at you. Today is going to be NOT a day for ad hominem attacks. Feel free to disagree with contributors ideas but the you, you, you statements are getting a little too personal.
This is not the dark screen. Logging on this blog should not be a battle ground.
Captain,
The fact that other people have said it before does not make it false. If you have anything substantive to refute my assertions,I would like to hear them.ASTROTURF
Bearly opinions, assertions, distortions, exaggerations, political spinning — good job Brownie! The Captain has this pegged. That like minded politicans are present or lending professional support does nothing to diminish the grass roots nature of the effort, which I am still thinking could end up a Third Party effort if the Republicans do not get involved in.
To be fair, Bush was hounded from the minute he took office too. I’m kind of confused about the suggestion he was treated differently. OK, for a very brief moment in time the country united around him after 9-11. I submit that would have happened to any president no matter how unpopular they were. And, there’s a big difference between 6000+ lives being taken in one day and the current economic crisis. You can’t compare the two. While you can say lives are affected and maybe lost in this crisis – it didn’t happen in one day – and being the first attack of its kind in the USA where three targets were hit within minutes of each other – I just find that a very unfair comparison. It is interesting how people want to rewrite history and forget the “Bush is a dictator, Bush stole the election” chanters at his innauguration, for example – or forget how one of those lunatics threw an egg at the presidential limo. Some of that behavior is just as bad as the “tea party” behavior – but some of those who blast the “tea party” want to rewrite history and suggest this is the first time there has been bad behavior like that in recent years!
The real Tea Party people are all around you. They are not much for calling names or even engaging in noisy arguments on the blogs. They are the ones, however, who vote almost every time. They are not at all happy right now. Witness that 18% approval rating for the U.S. Congress. Lowest ever, I would think.
Don’t make the mistake of overemphasizing the noisemakers on whom the media will always zero in for ratings purposes — or political purposes, as the case may be. You are paying far too much attention to the skirmishers. The main army is lying just over the crest of that hill, biding their time, nursing their discontent, waiting to exercise their constitutional rights in a peaceful and respectful but definitive way. Obama appears to be getting it. Everything seems to be in a critical, do-it-now mode, before the storm hits in November. And more and more you see some of Obama’s allies in the Congress heading for the hills before the storm comes.
I can go way back in time. Obama and Bush don’t own abuse from those who oppose them. Probably the worst I have ever seen is LBJ. After him comes Clinton. Clinton was hounded before he even took office.
If history repeats itsself, the opposition side will pick up lots of seats in the mid-term election and then will desperately try to hold on to them. There will be another election and the economy will determine who wins congressional seats and the presidency.
Meanwhile both the Conservatives and the Liberals are puffing up their feathers like birds, trying to stare down the other. Moderates are watching the show.l Republicans and Democrats are pandering. In the end, after all the puffing and ruffling of feathers, we will be right back to democrats and republicans and the stand off.
GR, I agree with some of what you have said. What I fail to grasp however, is how the TTP can claim the high road and act all offended while so many of their members are out parading around that Obama is not an American citizen, pictures of his ‘Joker’ image, and some of the truly horrible rhetoric I have heard.
Secondly, if one doesn’t want to be called a ‘teabagger’ then one shouldn’t wear tea bags on their attire. That is just common sense. Looking at any picture of their rallies and demonstrations, as far as the eye can see, there is unacceptable languge on signs about the president or some other public official. They can’t have it both ways.
Explain why I should not say ‘tea bagger’ when some one in buffoon clothing with tea bags stapled to clothing and hat is calling Obama or McCain a socialist? I honestly don’t get it. Isn’t respect one of thost bi-conditional sort of things?
Wolverine,
You and I will just have to agree to disagree. The TEA party was up and running within 2 months of Obama’s inaugeration. They hated him before he even made it into office. Where was the TEA party when the Bush appointee silenced the actuary for Medicare by threatening his job if he told members of the congress the REAL cost of the plan? Where was the TEA party when BILLIONS were being lost on defense contracts, and when I mean lost, I mean, where the heck is that money that came out of our tax dollars. Seriously, two months AFTER Obama takes office, suddenly Glenn Beck is “terrified” for the future of our country? That just feel pretty disingenous to me. What I saw at Town Hall meetings were outrageous. The incivility and rudeness and down right lies about health care would NOT have happened had it been Bush pushing this agenda. Like I said, where were the cries of “death panels” when the Medicare Prescription Drug Plan was being passed? Where was the outrage at Senators being “bought” in the halls of Congress? Where was the outrage over passing tax cuts through reconciliation?
The conservatives, many from Fox News, were stroking the fires of panic leading up to the election and afterwards, well, the panic train about Obama had already left the station.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200802130016?f=h_latest
http://mediamatters.org/research/200804030010
http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/video/youtube_barney_frank_confronts_woman_at_townhall/
The examples are endless and I will post them all later, my interent connection is incredibly slow right now. Between Hannity, Beck, Coulter, Rush, and many other, they were all laying the groundwork for the ensuing hysteria like I have never seen.
typing way to fast, please excuse the many spelling errors!
Media Matters…….uh-huh.
You know, I just KNEW you would say something CIF. I was going to wait until my connection was better and find the direct link, but decided the video would speak for itself. Seriously, are you going to debate the reality that we have all seen. Palin was practically calling Obama a terrorist during the campaign. Even McCain found himself having to defend Obama! How about this, you prove me wrong. Show me where Hannity did not interview a known Nazi sympathizer, show me where Coulter did not compare Obama to Hitler……….
You’re still looking at the surface, Elena. In the time frame to which you refer, most of these people were going about their own business and not paying all that much attention to politics and government beyond the usual runups to election time. Over the past year, they have awakened. To use the currently popular vernacular, Obama and the Democrats in Congress have growed ’em.
@Wolverine
“They” have awakened because “they” are no longer in power. The rule of one party republicans has been replaced. It wasn’t until “they” no longer had absolute control that you saw widespread panic. I’m sorry, the premise that “they are taking their country back” is very troubling to me. From whom are they taking it back? Me, their fellow American? From Obama, their President? I had serious disagreements with much of the Bush policy agenda, but I never marched with a large group, expressing my concern over legislation that had not passed? How can you march against something that hasn’t even been formed into legislative bill? This fear was fueled by certain organizations, of that there really is no debate in my mind.
I want to be able to help these people see that there is no reason to fear me, no reason to fear their President. It is possible to have a real honest to goodness discussion about their concerns. What I hope does NOT happen, is what I saw happen to those people who voiced concern about the Iraq invasion. I believe it was Max Cleland, having lost THREE of his limbs, that was accused of being a terrorist sympathizer by his republican opponent. I was never more disgusted with politics than at that point. WHERE was the outrage from the right? Where, I’ll tell you, it was no where.
I don’t know the best answer for insurance reform, I really don’t, but I do know this, we won’t find it by scare tactics and paranoia. You have insurance, I have insurance, but millions of people don’t or what they do have is substandard. I do not believe that people should die because they can’t afford health care. As an economic reality, health care costs are skyrocketing and small businesses can’t afford them.
I will share my story with you. I had an employer who was kind enough to put me on the group plan for the business even though I was part time, of course I paid for my insurance, but I was a part of the group. I am sure, when I was added, my premium was very low. I was 26, great health, worked out, etc etc. Well, within 7 months of my being insured, I was diagnosed with MS. Thank G-d I had health care is all I can say! However, three years later, still working part time, free lancing as a make up artist, working on my masters in counseling, my employer asks me to please look into finding alternative health care. The group is too small and I am raising everyones premium substantially. Imagine the guilt I felt. I looked into finding insurance on my own. Sure, I could get insured, for 500 dollars a month! That was 12 years ago, imagine what it would cost now. Do you know what one of the insurance agents told me? Her suggestion was that I go without insurance and just save my money and hope I did not have a relapse. THAT is the state of our health care system in one of the richest countries in the world. THAT is pathetic.
BTW, did you all like that pro-health care reform protest in D.C. yesterday? Reminded me of the old days. Protesters carrying phony “arrest warrants” for insurance company execs. Calling fellow Americans “criminals.” Union leaders up there urging the crowd to storm the Ritz-Carleton and “arrest” those execs. The cops being smart enough to turn them away without actually making the arrests that the protesters sought for themselves. Threatening to confront those Dems who do not support the current version of the health bill. Why, it looked almost like a “tea party” out there. Wink, wink.
I find it strange that other events in politics haven’t growed em also. It makes me wonder why. Are these the same people who think that Obama was president back in 2008?
I do not like what I see.
Elena, the “they” are not all Republicans — as you saw in Virginia, New Jersey, and Massachusetts. What I am sensing is a revulsion toward the current scene in Washington in toto. That falls in the laps of Democrats and Republicans alike. Obama has to take his lumps right along with the rest of them. No one drafted him into this job. He sought it out and paid a lot of cold cash to get the votes. As for marching against something before it is a done deal? It’s a bit easier in this country to stop something before it happens than it is to get rid of it after the fact — especially when it involves a program of the Federal Government. Those things take on lives of their own.
Actually it did look like a tea party. Shame on both groups.
I deplore extremists. I don’t care what kind of extremists they are.
Elena, I think your very personal story falls on deaf ears. Too many people have employer insurance and simply do not have the foresight to see what might happen if they lose their job or want to change jobs and have pre-existing conditions.
What can I say……at least I know now that it doesn’t always happen in the woods….sometimes it happens on Weblogs.
Wolverine, are you saying that Obama bought votes? Proof por favor.
Actually he was drafted so to speak. He was at least groomed for the job. That was obvious at the 2004
I guess you are saying regardless of what the bill said regarding health care, there was a group out there who wanted to kill it. Makes sense to me. Content is irrelevant. I find that bothersome also.
you know that old saying “walk in someone elses shoes for a day”@Moon-howler
What did I say that was not clear Wolverine? I said I don’t know the answer and that the best result will come from people talking and debating facts, not hyperboles or talking point rhetoric. When people yell they can’t hear one another, I have said that over and over, and I don’t exuse anyone, no matter who they are, for taking that tact. It’s o.k. to let our emotions run high sometimes, but then we have to calm down and do the hard work of finding solutions together.
Moon, I never meant any such thing. Candidates collect money so they can advertise, travel, campaign, and attract votes. That’s tough work. To do all that you have to want the job. No more than that was meant. Excuse the shorthand in that post.
As for those deaf ears, not so sure about that. One of my kids had a situation similar to that described by Elena. I think many people have encountered that, even though they may be protected themselves. The solution in my book is to find a way to help the Elena’s of this country without damaging the health care situations of those who are adequately protected. We also have to do it without totally screwing up the fiscal status of this country. We as a nation are, quite frankly, between a rock and a hard place right now from a fiscal and monetary standpoint, the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime (wasn’t here during the Great Depression). But there has to be a way out of this that will not leave a huge part of the country as angry as Hell at the rest of it.
Elena is right. The yelling and deprecations have to stop; but that goes for both sides and includes a whole lot of people on the Hill and in the Oval Office. The simplest solution, in my opinion, is to go back to square one and work together to find a common ground that works. For some reason, however, Obama refuses to do that. In my view, he could boost his own standing immensely by just such an action, especially with regard to bipartisanship. Given the divided mindset of the nation now, that action would say strongly both “peacemaker” and “statesman.”
I misread what you said. Thanks for the clarification, Wolverine.
I don’t know the answer to health care either. I do know that a lot of misinformation has been put out there to confuse and scare people and I resent that.
It is congress who would have to turn back. All Obama has to do is sign or veto the bill. I think what has happened in this country is horrible. I just like things cleaner than this. I know, I know, it isn’t going to happen.
I am the point now, I just don’t want to hear about the health care bill. So many distortions.
I think this summarizes it quite well. I also think the media likes to focus in on the most noisy and unruly Tea Party members – in attempts to portray everyone in the Tea Party as a bunch of raving lunatics. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of people out there that believe everything the media spoon feeds them.
Indeed, this is why I laugh every time someone talks about the Tea Party like they are the only people who behave this way. The other side is just as guilty of bad behavior. Back at Bush’s first inauguration there were some outstanding examples of “civilized protest” as I remember! Anyone from outside the USA watching some of those people on TV with their crazy signs saying very demeaning things about a sitting US president – must have thought – this President hasn’t even officially taken office yet but they are already out there with the nutty signs and saying very demeaning and shameful things!
My point is, it seems many Democrats would have you believe they’ve never ever behaved like the Tea Party members. I say, the Tea Party behavior is nothing new, and both sides are just as guilty. I kind of think the Democrats “outrage” over the Tea Party behavior is undeserved. And, the Democratic press would like you to believe the Tea Party folks are the only ones who’ve ever behaved like this! That’s pretty funny, actually – the scary part is a lot of people seem to be buying that story. I’m not sure what that says – but I find it scary.
Indeed, it wasn’t just Republicans that elected a Republican Senator in Massachusetts!
My problem with the whole healthcare thing IS that BOTH SIDES are putting out very distorting information.
Also, i think a more measured approach would be better. Not this “do the whole thing at once”. However, Obama wants to push this massive thing through – that no one can honestly predict what the consequences are. I don’t think any economist, medical expert, etc. can really say whether such a huge plan will be succesful or not. A much better approach would be to not try and bite off the whole thing at one time. This year, make a start, next year, do some more, etc. Then at least we’d have a chance at seeing if this really will work. I don’t buy a lot of the projections that they are making about how successful it will be – as to lowering costs, etc. I think they are over optimistic, and the math doesn’t even support some of it – as best as I can tell.
However, it appears Obama and others are hell bent on ramming it through – so I think we’ll just have to see how it works. I hope it does work, but I remain very very skeptical.
And, if my very excellent health plan provided by my employer disappears as a result of this, you better believe I’ll be very angry. I think there’s at least a 50/50 chance it will. Last year, I paid $0 out of pocket even though I was getting prescription meds all year long. I’m not kidding – I paid ZERO DOLLARS out of pocket last year, and my payroll deductions for my premium were not that high (I don’t think I’m paying any more than other people in my siutation – married without children).
But you are aware that not everyone has that kind of plan, aren’t you, GR? And for everyone who doesn’t have that kind of plan, there is a cost that is killing our country financially.
And i have no idea what the real health care plan that is on the table says. Clueless. Mainly because when it was in its initial phases, all the big mouths were out there screeching about death panels and all sorts of other things I don’t think will happen.
There was so much shrieking and misinformation flapping about I couldn’t tell you anyting about it if you held a gun to my head.
Moon,
Welcome to Congress. They, too, have no idea what’s in the plan…..
I just find it suspicious that Congress wants to ram this through so quickly, especially in the beginning before people had a chance to learn about it. Now, Congress is talking about passing it without a vote, using tricks.
When a salesman says, “Trust me.” its time to look elsewhere.
And about those Tea Partiers,….They save their worst vitriol for REPUBLICANS! The most popular chant is VOTE THEM ALL OUT.
Come on down on April 15th to Richmond. You’ll see one first hand.
My fear about the govt health plans are that centralized control over that industry WILL be politicized. The plans to mandate purchases of health care, to mandate automatic approval for all applications, the mandates to the companies to match gov’t requirements to fit into the “exchange”, the requirement for everyone to get insurance from that exchange even if your insurance changes at all, the “death panels” or as they were actually, cost/benefit analysis panels for treatment, all this is dangerous. Because once the government is in total control, there will be no alternatives if they screw it up and damage the medical industry.
If you want to see the future of American medicine under government control, look at the NHS in England. Their policies are a progressive’s dream.
If we want reform, we need Congress to stay out of it except as referees between the parties involved: the insurance companies, medical industries, doctors, patients, patient advocates. THEN get the lawyers and Congress involved. We do need a safety net. Revamp medicaid and medicare.
As it its, those programs are going broke, actually ARE broke. If Congress can’t fix those limited programs, how can they run the whole thing.
Obama keeps talking about how medical costs are going to break the government. He keeps talking about how medical costs keep going up for the government. Well, picking up MORE medical programs will not fix his costs. And our costs are not included in his unless we already use those programs. A lot of the current efforts are pay backs for the unions. If medical care ends up under government control, they can fob off their pension costs. Big business can too. If insurance companies are forced to take all comers without increases in price, they WILL go out of business. I’ve seen how the VA is funded. Political will. The VA will just get folded into whatever crappy system comes out of this mess.
And I can forsee how some questions might get asked in the future, “Sir, are your union dues up to date? I’m sorry, we can’t seem to find a date for your operation. By the way, you ARE a Democrat, right?”
Or if you like, “you are a Republican, right?”
I am interested in seeing what the Coffee Party suggests that is different from the status quo.
I don’t know what is worse, govt or insurance companies running something. Both are miserable in my mind. Its all in what someone else deems important. I would have better feelings if all the lobbying weren’t going on. Between AMA, the Pharmaceuticals, and the insurance industry and congress, I feel screwed.