The Texas Textbook Wars have begun and it is truly a clash of cultural warriors vs. mainstream America. So why does anyone care what textbooks Texas purchases? Texas is the 2nd largest purchaser of textbooks in the nation. California is the first. However, California’s financial woes are so bad that they have postponed purchasing textbooks for the time being.
So whats the big fight over? Texas has been known as clearing house for textbooks for several decades. What goes in, what goes, who gets mentioned and who is shunned is often determined ‘deep in the heart of Texas.’ Because California is not buying new textbooks, all the textbook publishers are kowtowing to Texas. According to Myfox in Phoenix:
What happens in Texas – is likely to impact your child’s textbooks, no matter where you live. That’s because the Lone Star state is one of the top textbook buyers in the world, so publishers write to Texas curriculum standards and the books are sold nationwide.
This week, the Texas State Board of Education will be hammering out social studies curriculum and stirring up plenty of controversy.
“The cultural war, has regrettably not ended. And of the biggest, most important fronts now are curriculum battles in Texas and indeed around the country because the next generation of young people need to understand good science, good history, comprehensive sex education.” said Barry Lynn, a church-state separation advocate.
But as 15 elected board members prepare to make those decisions in Texas this week, conservatives say there are organized, liberal groups in these textbook fights who want to sanitize our country’s history.
“Our founders acknowledge the reliance upon divine providence, that we’re endowed by our Creator with these inalienable rights, and this idea that now you remove that as if it does not exist it really goes to the depths of what these groups trying to get at, and that is to expunge any reference to America’s religious heritage.” said Jay Sekulow from the American Center for Law and Justice
Math seems to be fairly protected from politics. However, science and social studies texts are rife with contention. The biggest issue in science has to do with origin of the earth ideas and evolution/Darwinism. Many fundamentalist Christians oppose teaching about anything that is Darwin and words like ‘secular humanist’ are used to describe those who believe the earth is more than 6,000 years old.
Social Studies is also a huge area of controversy because of the foundations of this nation. There is also great dispute over who our national heroes really are and what their role is in history. Terms like revisionist history are thrown about as well as terms like afro-centrism and euro-centrism. Patrick Henry sometimes gives way to Benjamin Banneker. George Patton and Douglas MacArthur might not be included. Colin Powell might be the potential replacement. Conservatives hold dear to their heroes and insist that those who have been revered throughout history stay at the forefront for children to read about and to be standard bearers.
Religion and religious topics continue to be argued as some parents and politicians fight to retain holidays like Christmas and Easter as units of study while others want all reference to Halloween stomped out.
One parent, Vivian Scretchen says “One day my son came home with an assignment for– it was around– it was around Christmas.”
But other parents believe religious discussions aren’t suited to secular classrooms.
“What I’m saying is that public schools don’t need to place this in their curriculum. Because it is– it’s potentially offensive to some. And it– it isn’t what a public school should be teaching.” said Jane Miller, a parent.
The Texas Board has already had showdowns over whether to get rid of mentions of Christmas, the Liberty Bell and Neil Armstrong. Some of the debate continues, but the backlash was so bad when the public got wind of the Christmas issue that the Board quickly voted to save it.
How sad that even textbooks have become political and part of the culture wars. What can parents do to make sure their voice is heard? What impact does this battle front have on language arts? What if your school districts ends up with a very conservative set of text books because nothing else is available? What can schools do? How about the other direction? Are there remedies? Will climate change be as contentious as Darwinism?
A really good history teacher should only used the assigned textbook as a minimalist outline. However, since we have adopted standardized tests, those good teachers are often stuck in a testing rut. Sometimes our very best teachers are kept from doing their best. I can still recall a college undergrad professor I had for American Diplomatic History. He put so much extra into those classes, accompanied by a great sense of humor, that the semesters invariably ended with a standing ovation by the students.
Wolverine, sounds like Norman Graebner of the University of Virginia – I took both semesters of his American Diplomatic History class and he was a terrific lecturer.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm
This topic just surfaced as I debated with a high school friend of mine who has suddenly become enamored with Focus on The Family doctrine. This very subject of our “country was founded on the basis of Christianity” came up in our conversation. I shared with here that everything I knew about Jefferson and Franklin actually pointed more towards a belief in deism. Why does American HAVE to be founded on Jesus Christ? Why is it that this amazing experiment we call Democracy has to have Christian basis. Everything I know about Thomas Jefferson tells us that he was a “naturalist’, believing that we have natural rights, bestowed upon us by our very existence on earth.
“Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, “Question with boldness even the existence of a god.” Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, “You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.”
What I would suggest is have lesson and debate it! Have student research their actual writings and talk about it in class. What a great critcal thinking lesson! How about that idea as an educational tool. It isn’t like this is science or math, these are subjective beliefs. Maybe my perspective is different because I am Jewish, I am not sure. But the idea that Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, Quincy Adams, etc were fundamentalist Christians and designed the government of the United States on Christianity is not borne out, at least through everything I have ever read, to be wholly accurate.
Thanks for visiting Mr. Richardson!
Wow Elena. I sure learned some new stuff from your post. I knew Jefferson was a deist but was never sure what that meant. I knew he wasn’t a fundamentalist Christian though. 🙄
Students for a Smarter State Board of Education are out there in Austin complaining about some members injecting their personal beliefs into this debate. They feel that education has become too politicized. Whatever decisions are made will be around for 10 years. Good for college students taking a stand. They want politically neutral topics and language used. Peter Doocy, Steve’s son, who apparently is now a roving reporter for Fox News, interviewed them. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, btw.
I feel like this textbook battle is a fight over the souls of America’s children. Those college students are right. The topics should be neutral. The ‘Scopes Monkey Trial’ should be mentioned as an important event in American History–not discarded. Most scientists believe the earth is billions, not thousands of years old.
Parents can teach that there kids that the moon is made of green cheese and that the earth is 6 thousand years old. Who cares. It isn’t what people believe. But every kid should at least know what Darwin’s theory (ies) is and that most scientific thought stems from this theory. And no, intelligent design and creationsism should not be taught as science. Those are beliefs, not science.
Another thought…maybe other states ought to team up with each other and reject those textbooks that contain political personal agenda. Virginia should not be held political captive by a textbook company who is catering to Texas. Refuse to buy and get a special dispensation to keep the old textbooks until politically neutral ACADEMIC material can be added to the textbooks. I don’t want liberal or conservative claptrap in textbooks.
Um, actually – this is false. If you look at any of the major textbook publishers (Houghton-Mifflin, Prentice Hall, Pearson, Glencoe, McGraw Hill) – they all have Virginia Editions which are aligned to the Standards of Learning.
They aren’t catering to Texas. Another hue and cry over nothing. If you go to any of their websites and look at ordering textbooks, you can see that different states have different editions which are aligned to each state’s standards.
I worked extensively last year on curriculum development and was in touch with several publishers. Most publishers have divison area offices comprised of individuals who know the curriculum being taught in different states.
Also, most state editions are written by individuals within said state (professors, teachers, curriculum developers).
Anecdote:
When my girls were going to Jr High in California in the early 60s, there was a chapter in their social studies text book titled “Taming of the Red Man”. And nobody, including me, complained. Imagine! (My face gets red when I think of it)
And HH, the VA edition is usually a supplementary workbook that includes cheesy attempts at addressing some SOL objective. The main content of the book doesn’t change just for Virginia.
By the way, I have a bridge for sale….. someone has sold you a bill of goods.
Double edged sword. The same occurs with the largest consumers of cars in the United States – California. Because of the issue of air pollution in CA cars for sale in CA had to be built to CA emissions standards. This proved to be ineffecient for the automakers (each model car made had to be made to that special standard and only sold in 1 state) so the automakers simply did away with making two different models and all cars met the CA emissions standard.
I don’t think the idea of states binding together to reject or seek other textbooks will work as the cost of production for the books and profit margin is already razor thing. So, whatever CA/TX does is where the county will go in terms of school books. Pretty much has worked like that for as long as memory serves.
Politics will always intersect education as long as the govt is involved. And, no one is really ever satisfied with the textbooks released or 1 sentence within 1 textbook that gets approved.. such is life.
I do believe that the Americas were founded for religious purposes but will also buy into an arguement that the colonization of America had a free market underpining. The question then becomes to what level should that be taught – I think a one or two line mention will be sufficient. As a nation we don’t have to ‘hide all the crosses’ – we acknowledge it as a part of the whole and leave the reader to make there own decision. For example; I’m not really ‘in’ to art deco but I understand that the influence of it helped to get where we are in terms of modern art. Doesn’t mean we don’t teach art deco in art class. 😉
Three points as FYIs
(1) PWCS has just launched the social studies textbook review process. Parents will be given an opportunity to review and provide feedback on the textbooks under consideration. I’ll post a note as soon as the dates and locations for the textbooks under consideration are posted.
(2) The NGO, in conjunction with the US Dept of Education, is currently undertaking an effort to draft national “common core” academic standards (through an effort called teh Common Core State Standards Initiative – CCSSI). Thus far 48 states, the District of Columbia, and all US Territories are participating in the effort. The effort requires that states adopt and implement at least 85% of the grade level specific standards drafted by the CCSSI. The CCSSI was supposed to issue the grade level specific standards for English / Langauge Arts and Math on Monday the 8th, that was pushed back to today and thus far nothing has been posted to the site (corestandards.org). The group has announced that they will move on to draft common standards for Science, History, Social Studies, and other topics in the coming months.
So, while the decisions Texas makes could have an impact on PWC and VA students, a far more reaching and controversial potential impact looms as the CCSSI takes up establishing national common core History, Science, and Social Studies standards.
(3) Math is generally free of politics, but not controversy, as we’re all, unfortunately, aware.
Seriously – I give up. I worked closely with Pearson Education last year on science and math curriculum. The texts are not “cheesy” workbooks, but actually separate TEXTS for the state. If you go to a school, pick up a text book, it will most likely say “VIRGINIA EDITION”. The main content can and does change to reflect the different standards.
It’s painfully obvious that you have no interest in researching before posting or even researching AFTER someone has stated they have experience. Figures. Do you know how text books are adopted? The amount of effort that schools and counties put into considering texts? Obviously not.
BTW – Pearson – searched History texts. 9 Separate texts are Virginia editions.
Marin, some colonies were founded for religious purposes and some were not. Virginia was founded for non-religious reasons. Massachusetts was religious. IN fact it was a theocracy for many years. I am all for telling the good, the bad and the ugly as it is.
Non government run schools also have to buy textbooks from somewhere.
Textbooks should not be held captive between 2 ideologies: Texas and California. Usually one would offset the other.
HH, the text changes that makes them special to Virginia usually appear on a page or two or in a workbook, even the non cheesy ones. I didn’t say the workbooks were cheesy, I said the attempts at SOL questions were cheesy.
Actually HH, now you bring it up, I find your experience …self proclaimed.
Now do you honestly think that textbook companies completely print up a Virginia model of a book that may or may not be adopted by the counties or do you think they have some ‘Virginia editions’ that might contain material that includes some SOL related questions?
Think of a modular house. The core house is there but you get to choose marble, granite or formica countertops.
Which content area did you work with?
Science, Math and Social Studies. One book is entitled “United States and Virginia History” – so I guess that can be used in other countries? Or other states?
Would you like me to send you the documents that I worked on? Or the links to those? Or, perhaps, the e-mails with different publishing companies?
GTFU
Meant other “counties”, not “countries”
Let’s think about the textbook market, shall we? The textbook market is suffering, no matter how many books are bought in Texas or Virginia. Unless the county pays out a significant amount of money to have publishers develop a book specific to the SOL’s (which they do with the workbooks), they are not going to adapt a text to the VA standards of learning. It’s simply not cost efficient to do so.
Private colleges have started a trend: they produce their own textbooks specific to their curricula, objectives and programs. Why do they do this? Because large, commercial publishers cannot cut the mustard. They are either too general or too slanted, as the Texas argument shows.
As far as slanting textbook material, my feeling is, put it all in there. What’s so wrong about saying, “Some people believe a God created the Earth”? Saying so is merely acknowledging the truth. It does not inflict a particular belief system on anyone.
@Posting As Pinko
“they are not going to adapt a text to the VA standards of learning.” The “they” there means the commercial publishers.
Happy Harry, you can send me all the documents in the world. It won’t mean you understand what happens nationally as far as textbook publishing goes. I am completely aware of how textbook selection works in Virginia.
To illustrate a point, pick up the same text for New Jersey, Virginia, and Texas. pick a random page and compare. Then pick a topic. Check to see how the topic is handled state to state. The changes would be the supplemental pages which address various SOL objectives. There is no main science book printed up just for Virginia. It is too costly.
Secondly, social studies books that address state studies have to be unique. Naturally Virginia history doesn’t come out of Texas or California. I don’t believe there are as many choices either for those. For other content areas, there is a state approved list. I don’t think that Texas schools have this option, but I am not sure.
Most importantly, when you come into someone else’s house, do you plop down and start putting your feet on the coffee table and start up balls to the wall conversations? Do you tell your host to ‘grow the fuck up?’ Didn’t think so. Don’t do it here. You are Elena and my guest and you are not to talk to us or any other guest that way. That includes the person you come here to fight with.
Pinko, I don’t see where ‘some people think’ really has much relevance in a science book. Do we also include that some people think that the moonlanding was a hoax by NBC? Lots of people think that, I am sorry to say.
I have no problem saying that climate change and other scientific theories have skeptics but I don’t feel we should propagate myths.
Tax-person, let Elena and me worry about the tone on Moonhowlings.net. We set the tone with each thread posting. You are free to agree or disagree with the post.
If you want to take issue with the textbook thread, feel free to do so. It is a topic I have followed for at least 30 years.
Egads. I agree with Pinko (you will not see me say that again as I still believe that the Red Menace exists and that Congress should hold hearings……) that the books should just put it out there and let the kids figure it out.
Its not like they can’t type google.com and find information supporting and opposed to whatever idea they see anyways..
I say – put it out there as a way to compromise and just do so in a way that doesn’t glorify it but rather puts it into a historical context. Don’t dwell on it; just put the notion out there and then move on. Kids won’t care anyways because they’re more interested in the death count of the Revolutionary War or the passionate speeches of our Statesmen and less on which denomination of a religion created or settled what area.
History is just a recordation and re-telling of what happened as well as an analysis of it to make sure we don’t repeat stupid mistakes.
Science on the other hand… Let’s keep it to evidence based science. Which means, tread lightly on anything where the scripture is called OR on the myth of global warming. Let’s concentrate on physics, chemistry, biology, and how you can mix A,B, and C together to make something go boom.
KimS, you are right about math programs. And there are also sub fights….for lack of a better word. Edcators still haven’t settled their own personal fight regarding calculators.
Are you coming from the parent or educator end of the math war?
I think PWC, actually the entire state, should postpone new textbooks for a while–at least until the budget crunch improves.
@marinm
I think you have agreed with me twice now, Marin, in the past two days. Hee hee!
My screen name is a parody. Someone called me a Socialist in the “Commie Pinko” context. I thought it was funny in the absurd sense, so I took on the name.
We have digressed from the topic a little. Let’s go back to Texas. Who should decide who the important figures in American history are? Are the ones we studied as children sufficient? How do these figures change over time?
I could easily skip Patton. He said some real nasty things during and after WWII. Yet do we want to put him out there as a controversial war figure? Do we have to pick and choose? Obviously a junior would have more Americans to learn than a third grader.
How about religion? Should religious thought be part of science? Why or why not?
@Moon-howler
Would be easy to work in the “some people think” in a footnote with further readings. Or, discuss the theory that scientific Christians or Einstein use.
Let’s face it. We might all have theories and beliefs, but we don’t really know for sure. Even Christians will tell you it’s a matter of faith, not science. Faith is based on philosophy. This would make an interesting chapter in a science book, I think. I also believe that anyone who claims to hold the market on truth (about anything) is arrogant or delusional. We’re humans. We only know what we can know.
Finally, I still think a comparative religions class for high schoolers and even junior high schoolers would be fine, not to endorse one religion over another, but to admit other religions and philosophies do indeed exist. We are depriving our children when we don’t teach them what is around them, and that includes teaching them about things we might not like.
MH as to deciding who to study and who not to study, we should be including as many people with as many perspectives as humanly possible. Then we should study more of those in college. It’s impossible to read everything, but we need to be exposed to a range of ideas. This is why I am a huge fan of “survey” classes.
Happy Harry,
If GTFU is what I think it means in e-mail speak, that kind of remark is completely unwelcome here and not appropriate. I hope you would not actually say that to someone during a face to face conversation!
I think we’re pretty close to the topic actually.
Texas and CA get to pick our books because of the number of books they can buy. That’s just free market. If Virginia wanted to challange that (as you suggested) we could align our book purchasing with a few states to try and counter the effect that CA/TX has; but would that really achieve anything? Who would we agree with? The Peoples Republik of Maryland? Hardly. North Carolina? West Virginia? Ohio? Talk about a nightmare trying to get states to agree on what information they want in a textbook with a cycle time of 4-6 years (maybe shorter). It might take that long just for the states to agree. 🙂
If CA is unable to maintain the ‘balance’ in books because of they’re financial situation (CA being on the left and TX being on the right and Pinko’s name makes me think about how this is an example of the fall of the Soviet Union except to say that in Stafford VA they teach that Gorbi won the Cold War with glasnost instead of speaking to the strength of capitalism over communism and how that directly impacted glasnost but …thats off topic) and Texas is our de facto American standard for textbooks… Good on them. It’d suck for me if CA was in the position of power but either was as a Virginian I’m reliant on elected officials in another state making decisions for our educational system here.
I have no issue if the people they want to put front and center in history books change. Different POV’s develop, maybe new historical accounts are brought to bear, or just publishers, educators, and the public want to focus on a different set of characters than before – thats fine. We just debate who the new cast is and move forward when we get agreement.
Personally, I feel religion should be mentioned (notice I didn’t use the word taught) in the context of history and contributions to our history. Science class? Nah, not my cup of tea (or coffee!). I have no problem with a history book saying that Henry King England took on the Holy Roman Catholic Church, created a new church (so he could wench and have a son) scared the crap out of some Englishmen who decided – ok there is some scary change happening and we need to get the heck out – and helped to colonize the Americas.
Mix in the other countries that did it for financial gain, religious freedom, because they were criminals and were sold as slaves, etc. and you get this picture of the mood that existed and how things fell into place to make it happen. Is that overly religious? Nah. Just history. 😉
We may go round and round about this but I have no business telling Texas what to do about it’s education system. That it effects ours because the books we have available for purchase may be more constrained — thats something for our local School Boards to deal with when that decision needs to be made. Overall, I just think this is much ado about nothing.
@Elena
Although I would not ask you to spell out what it means (naive I am), I am not sure what it means exactly but from your response it sounds pretty bad. I can figure out at least one of the words. If it is what I think, I agree entirely with your comment. Anger is one thing but that sounds like it is beyond anger if one can’t control their words (or abbreviations I guess).
Just googled it and I think I know the other words now too.
Funny how alliances can be built on some subjects. I’ll go with Marinm and say that I agree with he and Pinko on this one. The teaching of history is and ought to be as much as possible an objective record of what happened, with personal but evenhanded comments and observations thrown in by the instructor in his/her own role as an “historian.” To take Pinko’s comment of “Some people believe a God created the earth.” a bit further, how could you possibly even teach history without including that statement and a elucidation of it? If, for instance, you teach that the Pilgrims came to America to escape persecution and fail to explain to the students the exact nature of that persecution, you are not giving them the education they need and deserve. You are doing them the same disservice if you do not point out the theocratical warts which grew up in the Puritan system in Massachusetts. I think both sides should back off on this and allow the full spectrum of historical arguments and controversies to be exposed. You do otherwise, and it’s called “propaganda.”
And BTW, given the breadth of the religious spectrum in this country, a comparative religion class taught on a completely neutral basis out to be de rigeur for all our schools, public and private. And the course ought surely to include a very big object lesson: the story of “The Four Chaplains” from World War II. I have never seen greater inter-religious cooperation and comity than that between the chaplains in the military — at least in my own experience.
One of the beefs I have long had with the way history is sometimes taught in our schools is tan over-emphasis on certain socially relevant issues such as the role of women and minorities in our history. I am among the first to agree that these subjects are important and belong in the curriculum. But I found to my distress that I was the one who wound up teaching my kids the details about the American Revolution and the writing of the Constitution — around the dinner table. They even got pop quizzes before dessert. I should not have had to do that. Those kids whose parents are not well versed in our history often do not get that chance to recoup, unfortunately, unless they are self-starters with regard to the library and reading. (The same thing happened with English. Mrs. Wolverine and I wound up teaching proper punctuation because these were no longer deemed as important as “free expression” in our local elementary school.)
I have to agree with this. We can’t include every possible theory just because some segment of the population thinks it is so. Science books have to hopefully have fairly mainstream theories. Many of these small minority opinion theories are really way out there, and I don’t think they belong in science textbooks which should be at least attempting to teach things that most scientists believe in, even if they can’t be 100% conclusively proven. Certainly, climate change is a “mainstream theory” that does have a place in textbooks. But there are other less mainstream theories that don’t belong.
And, you’d be amazed how many people think the moonlanding was a hoax. You’d also be amazed there are a sizeable amount of people who don’t believe the earth is round! Does that belong in a scientific textbook? There’s also a sizeable amount of people who believe the “Face on Mars” is conclusive evidence that there was a civilization on Mars and have taken satellite photos and done all kinds of geometrical analysis of that and its relation to other features on Mars and have found all kinds of interesting mathematical relationships. On the surface it sound great but you can find patterns in any “noise” if you look closely enough -and some of that “noise” is imperfections in camera lenses. I would hope we aren’t going to put all that in a scientific textbook as conclusive proof of life on Mars.
There’s just a lot of wacky scientific theories out there that have no place in a scientific textbook – unless it is a textbook for a science course in non-mainstream theories or something!
@Gainesville Resident
GR, a course on non-mainstream theories would be awesomely fun!
@Moon-howler
I post as Mom and an outspoken opponent of the PWCS elementary Math program.
Another FYI – the county allocates funds each fiscal year for textbook purchases. The funds are placed in a reserve account which can only be used for textbook / instructional materials purchases. That is specifically so that school districts aren’t caught trying to raid the textbook funds when money is tight. So, while our county school district budget may be tight, the funds for replacing textbooks have already been set aside.
As for HH’s comment that the Virginia editions of textbooks are somehow different than the national editions, I beg to differ. There may be some slight changes to a Virginia edition, like a supplemental chapter on Virginia history, but for the most part textbooks meet one core set of standards. For History, Science, and Social Studies those standards tend to come from either Texas or California as those states are the largest purchasers of textbooks. For math the standards tend to come from whatever skills the textbook author’s felt needed to be learned in that grade level, irrespective of the standards present in many states.
A common set of core standards, as will be issued soon by the CCSSI, will simplify textbook publishing because each participating state is required to adopt at least 85% of the common core standards, so a textbook that meets the common core standards will meet at least 85% of the standards in every state (except Texas and Alaska – the only states which are not participating).
When it comes to debates about content and instructional approach, I wish school districts would give parents a say in how their kids are taught various topics and with what materials. I’ve never understood why school districts have to go all out following one approach over another. Take sex education. Why does a state or district have to offer only abstinence or only abstinence plus education? Why can’t they offer both and give parents the right to choose which approach they believe is most appropriate for their child? Same with math and even certain sciences.
@KimS
“I’ve never understood why school districts have to go all out following one approach over another. ”
AMEN.
It’s like when these schools of thought become popular–whole language, phonics…why not both? This “either/or” mentality will be our undoing.
KimS, last question first. Money. School size. (can you form a class that is the right size)
I agree with you about text book editions totally. It is one core set of standards that have supplements added in for the appropriate state. I also believe that Texas selects text books for the entire state rather than a selection the jurisdictions can choose from.
Unfortunately both Texas and California have some real down sides to their respective curriculums. I prefer value neutrality in schools. That is the safest approach and it offends the least number of people. Core beliefs like don’t cheat, don’t steal, respect your elders and others are fine but when we get off into the less mainstream ideas….keep them at home.
I need to find out more about CCSSI.
I certainly don’t have problems with religion being mentioned and I don’t know anyone who does. How does one mention the crusades, or the reformation, colonial America, westward expansion, etc without without acknowledging religion.
I mind teaching religion in schools or implying that we are somehow a theocracy.
I’m hearing that they are essentially letting the leftist wingnuts have a forum to spout their Anti-American doo-doo, then they’ll just publish what they want to publish anyway.
Hey, Slow. Something happen recently? Your posts don’t usually sound so caustic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q7XH8lfGMc
Need I say more. I have marched in D.C. three times in my life, and NEVER have I ever seen mobs like this. I don’t know if the guy was brave or the guy had a death wish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3xE69w6ar4&NR=1
This is why the Coffee Party was formed. To create the platform where discussion based on FACTS is promoted.
@Rez
I agree. Maybe Slow needs to get to bed earlier. How are people concerned about what facts are taught their children “leftist wingnuts”. I thought my suggestion for having an informed debate was an excellent idea. But, the reality, is that the forefathers weren’t Christian fundamentalists. Its not a bad thing or good thing they weren’t, it just IS.
@Elena
But they WERE Christian, and their Christian faith and values permeate every aspect of this nation’s founding. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY likes religious extremists, but you know what we like even less? Atheist extremists and other liberals.
I don’t know…..I’m sorry??
Not looking for an apology, man. It just didn’t sound like you, that’s all. You are welcome to your opinion.
I think, by the way. many of the founding fathers attended the Anglican Church, which became the Episcopal Church. They say that Washington was a deist as well, but he was on the vestry at both Pohick Church and Falls Church and also could have been at Christ’s Church in Alexandria.
You can pick out Jefferson but he was not all the founding fathers.
Church served as a lot more than a once a weekly service back in those days. Also, Christmas was not a major holiday. Being a Deist also did not mean that you never attended church services.
Then there was all the free mason stuff which I will never understand.
They weren’t the pious people that people mistakenly think they were. Washington lusted for someone else’s wife, Ben Franklin had over 20 children who were not the off-spring of Mrs. Franklin, and TJ had quite a little set up for himself.
I don’t stand in judgement. Different times had different mores.
And by the way again, almost any member of a religion is a deist in some form. It is merely the structure under which they honor the deity that changes.