Abusive, derogatory and racist behavior directed at House Democrats by protesters on Saturday shocked lawmakers. Before the President’s speech to House Democrats, thousands of protestors gathered to protest the passage of health care reform. Members of the crowd were shown heckling. Some became abusive and resorted to hurling racial epithets.
The Huffington Post reports:
A staffer for Rep. James Clyburn (D-S.C.) told reporters that Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-Mo.) had been spat on by a protestor. Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.), a hero of the civil rights movement, was called a ‘ni–er.’ And Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) was called a “faggot,” as protestors shouted at him with deliberately lisp-y screams. Frank, approached in the halls after the president’s speech, shrugged off the incident.
But Clyburn was downright incredulous, saying he had not witnessed such treatment since he was leading civil rights protests in South Carolina in the 1960s.
“It was absolutely shocking to me,” Clyburn said, in response to a question from the Huffington Post. “Last Monday, this past Monday, I stayed home to meet on the campus of Claflin University where fifty years ago as of last Monday… I led the first demonstrations in South Carolina, the sit ins… And quite frankly I heard some things today I have not heard since that day. I heard people saying things that I have not heard since March 15, 1960 when I was marching to try and get off the back of the bus.”
“It doesn’t make me nervous as all,” the congressman said, when asked how the mob-like atmosphere made him feel. “In fact, as I said to one heckler, I am the hardest person in the world to intimidate, so they better go somewhere else.”
Asked if he wanted an apology from the group of Republican lawmakers who had addressed the crowd and, in many ways, played on their worst fears of health care legislation, the Democratic Party, and the president, Clyburn replied:
A lot of us have been saying for a long time that much of this, much of this is not about health care a all. And I think a lot of those people today demonstrated that this is not about health care… it is about trying to extend a basic fundamental right to people who are less powerful.”
For many of the members of the CBC, like John Lewis and Emanuel Cleaver who worked in the civil rights movement, and for Mr. Frank who has struggled in the cause of equality, this is not the first time they have been spit on during turbulent times.
This afternoon, the Congressman was walking into the Capitol to vote, when one protester spat on him. The Congressman would like to thank the US Capitol Police officer who quickly escorted the others Members and him into the Capitol, and defused the tense situation with professionalism and care. After all the Members were safe, a full report was taken and the matter was handled by the US Capitol Police. The man who spat on the Congressman was arrested, but the Congressman has chosen not to press charges. He has left the matter with the Capitol Police.
This is not the first time the Congressman has been called the “n” word and certainly not the worst assault he has endured in his years fighting for equal rights for all Americans. That being said, he is disappointed that in the 21st century our national discourse has devolved to the point of name calling and spitting. He looks forward to taking a historic vote on health care reform legislation tomorrow, for the residents of the Fifth District of Missouri and for all Americans. He believes deeply that tomorrow’s vote is, in fact, a vote for equality and to secure health care as a right for all. Our nation has a history of struggling each time we expand rights. Today’s protests are no different, but the Congressman believes this is worth fighting for.
Behavior like this reminds me all too much of scenes on TV that I saw as a kid. The only things that seem to be missing are dogs and fire hoses. This scene is totally unacceptable. If leaders of protests can’t control their crowds and their people then they need to have smaller crowds or stay home. When gatherings turn nasty like this one did, something is wrong. Our democracy cannot survive on mob rule. The threats of violence are unacceptable. I keep hearing the word ‘fringe.’ I keep seeing what seems like thousands of ‘fringe. ‘ I am more than willing to concede their numbers.
The specific actions and signs I see and read about here here I condemn totally. It is exactly what I have been warning against in recent posts. But I would like to know just how widespread these incidents were. Do we or do we not have some cherrypicking here by the Huff Post and the photographer involved? If cherrypicking is the flavor of the day and if one condemns the entire movement for the unacceptable actions of a few, you will kill all arguments against the false generalizations encountered so frequently these days on both sides of the equation on almost every issue. I know that many on this blog are infuriated when someone points to a crime committed by illegal immigrants and then tries to tar all such immigrants as part of the same package. We’ve all got to be careful that this does not become a universal habit among us.
I was at an open-air concert on the Mall in 1970. Behind me a physical battle erupted between anti-war demonstrators and the Park Police, largely, as I recall, because the protesters flung their illegal drug use into the faces of the Park Police officers. I blamed those involved. I did not demand that the likes of senators Kennedy, Fulbright, and McGovern and any number of activist anti-war congressmen apologize for the actions of the few because I knew that they could not very well control everyone on their own side of the ultra-contentious issue at hand.
Am I trying to back and fill on this? Nope. In fact, I would say that those people holding up the signs with the guns ought to be put in the slammer and charged with a threat against Congress. I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know how or whether such a charge would work. But I wouldn’t be adverse to giving it a try. And in this case, I would suggest that those who are claiming some mantle of leadership among the varied parts of the Tea Party movement should stand up and disown what I see and read here and say; “No more of this crap that serves only to harm the cause!” Come to think of it, I wouldn’t have minded hearing the same from those anti-war leaders in Congress in 1970.
The title did not say Tea Party Protests out of respect for you, Wolverine, because I know you so strongly disapprove of this kind of behavior and have tried to encourage people to firmly put their best foot forward. I erased some of it in deference to you. I also went to other sources because Huffington can be inflammatory. I totally understand your point on that.
I would hope there weren’t many attacking the black caucus. I wish these accounts said something like 10-15 protestors to give you an idea. Unfortunately I could not find much out and I was out during news time this evening.
I have seen leaders tell crowds to behave. I have seen it at sports events and at political functions. I have also seen where it didn’t happen. I have also seen politicians encourage it. Responsible people leap to leadership positions and tell people to cool their jets.
Now I have to ask…what concert in 1970?
I think they should have been told to cut the crap by leadership back in the 70s as well as today. But that’s just me. I will be honest and tell you that it was a real temptation to not run over some of the protestors back in the 70s. They almost begged you to do it. I wanted to sooo badly. But I didn’t. I agree 100% with your last paragraph.
I have been on many forums and blogs that are Tea Party related that tell members to keep it civil. One thing you must understand is that there are NO Tea Party leaders. There are many autonomous groups throughout the country. Also, this gathering in DC this weekend was not a ‘tea party” event. It was a general call by a Congressman, using talk radio, to set up the demonstration.
Feeling are running hot. The populace is frustrated with the lack of response and the arrogance of Congress. Those that are “threatening violence” in those signs are showing that many are getting to a boiling point. This is not just some “crazy.” Pelosi’s and Reid’ s statements and actions are, in many ways, de-legitimatizing Congress in the eyes of many. They feel that their rights and freedoms are being threatened by a Congress and administration that no longer respects the Constitution. When Pelosi states that she will get this passed no matter what and tries to use tricks like “deem and pass”, she appears to many as an actual enemy of the US.
The bigotry and spitting are inexcusable. However, while probably not in this case, leftist groups have been trying to infiltrate tea party and similar groups to cause trouble at rallies.
Now, having seen what leftist rallies have been like, having been spit upon myself, if this was the worst that happened, out of a reported 30,000 people, I’d say that the crowd was pretty well mannered as a whole. When I’ve seen Bush hanged in effigy, and signs calling for the direct assassination of Republicans, stating that unconstitutional behavior might be resisted with force, is not so bad.
Remember, many in this country take the original meaning of the 2nd Amendment very seriously. That is why it was enumerated. Not to give citizens the right to bear arms, but to remind the government why citizens have the right to bear arms.
I’m curious as to why no other media other than Fox gave such a large demonstration any major coverage. Why no big pictures of the crowd and other signs? Cherry picking is a time honored tradition with the media. Remember, other than Fox, the other networks are cheering the bill. They want the protesters to look bad. I never saw this much negative reporting on the anti-war movement.
but what it is that is creating such fervent fear, unrestrained hatred, and violent overtures? Medicare Prescription Drug Care Act was 600 billion dollars by the time it was voted on and passed. I have been researching to see if it was paid for within the legislation and have not been successful….yet. I am still looking. Where was the outrage, fear, and ferver expressed over that legislation? Clearly they are not identical, but the cost sure was massive. I am just wondering.
Elena, I can only speak for myself on the issue you raise and on other issues of the time. Quite frankly, I was more than a bit flummoxed by what was going on then. A lot of us never expected that from the direction from which it came. There is, in my opinion, a huge difference between seeing the opposition doing something of which you do not approve and finding out that your own, so to speak, are suddenly doing it. Then you have to pause and try to calculate whether to go up against your own and, as a consequence, possibly hand over power to an opposition you fear will do even worse by you. You’re kind of stuck there. Bush was doing it. The Dems in Congress were among his his allies in it. Where do you go with that? Politics can be a crazy and mystifying thing. So, I ask in return: Did any Dems protest against the high cost of that Medicare deal? I cannot recall now.
I would say that the Tea Party needs some leaders. Cargo, I don’t think it is your intent but you are making the Tea Party(s) sound like some form of anarchy.
I have seen probably every president we have ever had, at least in my lifetime, hanged in effigy. I don’t like it. I don’t like Americans to behave in that manner.
The Tea Party People aren’t the only ones who are hot under the collar. From what I have read, those who want health care reform are hot under the collar also. I don’t accept that we have war on the streets over this issue.
I don’t think the Democrats were very vocal about it, if memory serves me. AARP did back it.
Wolverine, do you back the rx plan? Elena and I don’t necessarily see eye to eye on it. I think some of that has to do with age rather than politics since I am the more senior of the 2 of us. 🙂
Moon, it was some sort of “Honor America” concert on the Mall sponsored by, inter alia, the late, great Bob Hope. I think it was the summer of 1970 but I’m not absolutely sure. Anyway, Mr. and Mrs. Wolverine were sitting in the grass between the Reflecting Basin and the Wash. Monument. I turned around at hearing some loud noise and couldn’t believe my eyes and ears. The Park Police on foot and horseback were having at it with a large group of protestors in the usual protestor garb of the time. Over the whole melee hung a cloud of what turned out to be pot fumes but looked in the dark like a battlefield covered with cannon smoke. Talk about protests!!
This frustration, at least on the side of the conservatives, started under Bush’s plans on the RX drug plan and then continued under his other statist programs. While he vetoed very little, the Democrat Congress then, did not seem to be this crazy.
Now, Congress appears to want to hurry up and cram every liberal/progressive program that they’ve dreamed about for the last 100 years down our throats. Remember, the “heath insurance reform” bill had to be done by last August or terrible things would happen. Well, they happened. The American people woke up to the Congressional shenanigans. Americans will put up with a lot. But their BS meters have pegged. Obama is obviously lying about his pet programs, especially how Congress is implementing them. Pelosi and Reid are truly tone deaf to the concerns of the the citizenry. They know that once the structure is in place, they will have a lock on the electorate. This bill, they have ADMITTED, is only the first step to universal, government run health care. And once that is in place, they will use that as an excuse to run more of our lives. Heck, they are trying it now in New York with salt, they’ve done it with smoking, and now they’re trying it with fat.
Ridiculous claims as to money saved, increased insured, etc are coming from the Democrats and are being refuted from information coming from the Senate bill and the CBO.
The Tea Party is a movement. It is still in its infancy and is self-organizing. Many organizations are trying to “act” as the movements leaders, such as the GOP, Libertarians, etc., but there are too many NON-POLITICAL people in the movement that are just angry and frustrated with Congress to trust any politicians right now. The most popular chant heard at the Richmond rally last year was “Vote them ALL out!”
One big fear is that, with Medicare/Medicaid running in the red by TRILLIONS, how can we expect the government to run this shindig any better. The government has never been able to cut ANY costs or spending. EVER. And now they want to add to that fiasco.
Between medical personnel that state that under this plan they will find new work, to examples of government run health care in other countries, to our own incompetence, to the obvious corruption and dishonesty in our government, why should any of this be supported?
Here are some posts that contradict the story given out by the Huffington Post:
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/03/state-run-media-now-reporting-racist-propaganda-from-huffington-post-as-fact/#comments
http://www.ktvu.com/politics/22899444/detail.html
Key statement is that the Capitol police made NO arrests today.
The video at Gateway Pundit shows an unruly, hostile crowd, but the Congressmen spoke to none of them and I heard no racial shouts, though, I’ll admit, that any bigotry was not caught by that camera.
Boy, Moon, I was really torn about that rx issue. You’re right about the generational thing, although the issue did not affect me or my wife in any medical way. However, I did know and knew of some of the old folks who needed medications and were cutting the pills in half because the cost was so expensive. Some of them did it because of need; others, however, seemed to do it because they grew up in the Great Depression and had developed a great distaste for things which seemed much over-priced. I think the rising cost of drugs at their advancing ages sort of made some of them rather apprehensive just at the thought of it.
On the other hand, I do recall looking at the price tag and the whole deal with a jaundiced fiscal eye. For one thing, as a veteran of the Federal establishment , I knew darn well that almost everything the Feds did turned out to cost much more than promised. Moreover, I kept getting battered by the reminders that the Social Security and Medicare “lock boxes” were empty except for a bunch of I.O.U.’s because the Congress had absconded with those funds for other purposes and that both programs might be headed for a crash at some point. I didn’t see the Federals as having a laudable fiscal record in that regard regardless of party in power. I was personally between a rock and a hard place on that one; and, at some point, I may have just thrown up my hands in disgust. Sort of like the old Life of Riley: “What a revoltin’ development this is!!”
Well, Cargo, those links made me feel a little better. I will continue to say, however, that signs like those with .9mm Browning on them have got to go. They may think they are inducing support by such actions; but I will tell you that such tactics will scare the Hell out of some people. I am a firm supporter of the 2nd Amendment; but I get really pissed at people who flaunt the weapons thing — usually people who never had to carry one with a North Vietnamese sniper possibly waiting for them in the trees across the river.
I agree that signs like that are counterproductive. But, and its a big but, it would be dangerous for Congress to disregard them as crackpots. The ones with the signs probably aren’t the dangerous ones. They, at least, have let off some steam. The ones that agree with the signs but are starting to believe that signs are useless are the dangerous ones.
Question, what do you mean by flaunt? Open carry? Or the ideas expressed in the sign?
If its open carry, heck, that’s mandatory in restaurants that serve alcohol.
If its the signage, look at those as the canary. When you stop seeing them, then its time to worry. Those are warning signs like, Trespassers will be shot.
While it may be against the law to shoot trespassers, it would still be a bad idea to test it.
Obviously, those signs and those things that were said in the way of racial epithets and so on, are completely despicable. It is too bad that some people choose to behave that way. There is no excuse at all for that kind of behavior. I’m sorry to see that – and indeed, that kind of behavior continues to give the Tea Party a bad name and does nothing to help them get their message across. Well, it’s too bad they did all that stuff yesterday – I certainly agree that there’s no place for saying those kinds of things, behaving that way.
However, again, as Wolverine said in his very first post on this thread – is this once again cherry picking a few select fringe members? I often have thought it is in the past, and I am hopeful it is again.
If so, the Tea Party can’t be condemmed by the actions of a few of its fringe members.
It would be the same as I would hope you’d like to see about the Coffee Party – if it grew big enough and had fringe members – you wouldn’t want it painted with a broad bush saying its fringe members were representative of it. Just the same as you wouldn’t want this blog painted as being represented by some of the fringe members of it.
So, I would like to find out the ground truth here: is this just fringe member behavior of the Tea Party? Did they just find just a few offensive signs, and focus in on them? Did they just find the extreme behavior (racial epithets and such) and focus in on that – and make it sound like the entire Tea Party was this way yesterday in Washington?
I’d really like it if someone would find out the facts, and if they exonerate the Tea Party as a whole, honestly write that on here, if that is indeed the case. I really have the feeling it is, as I bet a lot of Tea Party members are just like Wolverine, and they make up the great majority. I hope so, anyway, but I really believe that’s the case.
I just think the press has it in for the Tea Party, and finds any fringe elements of it at every gathering they can, and magnifies those fringe elements to make it look like they make up 90% or more of the Tea Party.
That’s really the recurring theme of my thoughts on the Tea Party that I’ve been writing about the past few days on here – I don’t think the press has portrayed them accurately at all.
I really hope someone can prove that on here about yesterday’s events, too.
Still, the fringe folks who put up those kinds of signs, and who shouted racial epithets and did other nasty stuff – that is indeed despicable behavior.
I think Wolverine’s post here is good. I kind of thought I remembered the Dems in Congress going along with Bush on that one. So, it’s a little different case in that respect. Obviously, the Dems who went along with him, didn’t for whatever reason object to the high cost. So, for whatever reason, it was a bit more of a bipartisan bill.
As Wolverine said, politics can be mystifying at times! But I think his explanation is a good one, of those events.
This is probably a good point, about the Tea Party needing some leaders, who can kind of attempt some control of the fringe elements (maybe) and get them to stop that kind of extreme behavior.
You are also right – every president in modern times has been hanged in effigy. That doesn’t make it right – but somehow I have a feeling that will continue to be the case for years and years to come, no matter who is president.
Of course, there’s Free Speech and all that – but I would agree, some types of behavior like signs that are directly threatening to members of the Congress (or the President or any other elected official) should warrant arrests. As you say, who knows what lawyers would do and if the charges would stick. But, there was definitely some behavior (and signs) there that certainly to me seems like the people involved should have been thrown in jail.
I also think Wolverine is right (like MH also said) – anyone in the Tea Party who is trying to assume a leadership role should get out the message that this kind of behavior is definitely not wanted, not desired, and shouldn’t happen again, and that it is totally unacceptable.
By the way – anyone remember that incident a couple of years ago at Tony’s Pizza in Manassas when a bunch of open carry gun owners (who had the proper permits) came into the restaurant? I believe they were asked to leave (which the restaurant owner has every right to do) but they didn’t and the Manassas police were called. It was quite controversial as a I remember. Anyway, I probably have the details wrong, but Wolverine’s post made me think of that.
However, it’s not exactly on topic for this thread – but in a little way related – so I thought i’d bring it up. I don’t remember exactly the outcome. My thoughts are: it was fine for them to come in the restaurant. But, when the restaurant owner asked them to leave (I believe that’s what happened) because it was making some patrons uncomfortable, they should have done it. Although, I may be misremembering the facts, and maybe the owner didn’t ask them to leave, but some patrons called the police. So, that might be a bit different.
But Wolverine’s point that people have a rather visceral reaction to guns – getting back to those signs with guns at the rally yesterday – I agree with. To me those signs with the guns definitely are in really really poor taste, and many people are not going to like them.
If those Browning signs were held in the air for any length of time and Tea Party people didn’t get them down or fight to keep them down, it shows that they are not in control of their “movement” or of any message.
I sure hope that a Ross Perot type of person emerges before 2012 to give the many disaffected a place to vote.
The n-word, f-word stuff I think should be more of a non-story unless it was more than a few people doing it. We can’t as a society keep getting disturbed any time someone utters a slur – for example, a 16-year old kid grabbing a store phone in New Jersey should hardly be a national news story.
O.K., I will admit, I was riveted by the medicare prescription debate. I believe I watched almost the entire debate in the senate. If I recall, there were a handful of Democrats that supported the bill. The majority of dems were outraged over many facets of the legislation, the cost being one of them. I do not recall ANY discussion about HOW it was going to be paid for in the long term. Now, the AMA and AARP endorsed the bill. Here is where I find the hyprocrisy on BOTH sides. The repubs were touting it like a badge and the dems were dismissing the endorsement. Hmmmmm, fast foward to today and insurance/healthcare reform, the reverse is true! Clearly, the hyprocrisy is equal in both camps.
Additionally, the vast majority of Dems in the senate strongly supported bargaining like the VA does for drugs as opposed to a subsidy for pharmicutical companies.
Thousands of people demonstrated yesterday. And yet when I went online to the WashPost last night, the predominant photo was a close-up of a slovenly and very angry-looking woman pointing her finger. The Post does an awful lot of photo-editorializing, and clearly want people to believe that that woman is the face of a racist, redneck Tea Party. What about all of the other peaceful protestors?
I don’t defend the hecklers who threw out epithets and spit at lawmakers. But I also don’t discount the possibility that they were leftist “plants,” if they even existed at all. The one Congressman who made such a big deal about being “spit on” refused to press charges. If it was such a big deal, then why not?
That is definitely a very true statement!
In my book, the Wash. Post is infamous for their choice picking of photos to publish to get their point of view across. No question about it! I’ve seen it hundreds (if not thousands) of times!
Of course, other news organizations (both print and broadcast media) do it too, so I’m not trying to say the Wash. Post is alone in this.
But I notice it a lot with the Washington Post, probably on almost a daily basis. Maybe it is because as it is a local newspaper I follow it closer than other media.
Anyway, you can count on the Wash Post to print the pictures that will distort a story to their point of view. You can also see it in articles that they view the subject matter favorably – then they will print the most sympathetic pictures. It’s really very very easy to see!
I have a feeling, the only way to truly know what went on there yesterday – and what the Tea Party protest was actually like, was to have seen it for one’s self.
You just can’t rely on the news media’s portrayal of the Tea Party – or at least for myself – I can’t trust their portrayal. Since I didn’t see for my own eyes what went on yesterday – I just don’t know what to believe.
I’m not denying that obviously those nasty signs were there, racial epithets were hurled, etc. All of that stuff is just awful. But, I have no idea how representative any of that was – and I still like to believe (and kind of think is the real case) those were just fringe elements and the press is blowing that out of proportion to make it look like most people in the Tea Party yesterday behaved that way. I just don’t think that is possible – it kind of defies logic. And, I just know how the press operates.
Still, I’m not in any way saying that the things portrayed at the top of this thread were not despicable behavior, and shouldn’t have happened. So, I’m not in any way defending that stuff, just to make myself clear, as evidently in the past on here I haven’t been clear about that.
The healthcare bill is a done deal. They’ve had the votes, and they’ve known it for weeks. All of this weekend drama is nothing but stagecraft designed to make it look like our undaunted and heroic President was able to finally achieve healthcare in the face of incredible odds.
I think it is curious that a Tea Party event with Richard Vigurie was held in Chantilly yesterday. This sounds like it was in direct conflict with the demonstration downtown. Doesn’t that seem a little strange to anyone else? If the intent was to have as many people show up downtown, why would they divide forces?
I wonder whether the downtown event had anything to do with the Tea Party or some other gathering that happened to also draw the people who have gone to Tea Party events.
While not condoning the nasty signs, it should be pointed out that bad behavior often begats bad behavior. With the government ramming this down our throats despite questionable constitutionality and minority support for this bill (< 40%), there is a lot of rage and frustration. Similar to a banana republic, this government is dangerously close to losing its legitimacy.
@Elena
You are quite right about the Medicare prescription drug bill, Elena. Conservatives dropped the ball on that one. Similar to what Wolverine said, I think that it escaped notice for two reasons: 1) we largely trusted that President Bush was a fiscal conservative; 2) our attention was focused on Iraq.
As a result, we did not pay sufficient attention to the bill. ‘No child left behind’ is another example. I should have been more suspicious of the term ‘compassionate conservative.’ I will not make that mistake again.
Please note that a professor of constitutional law at Georgetown also questions the constitutionality of Obamacare.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/19/AR2010031901470.html?hpid=topnews
I was just reading this article and came over here to see if there was a thread on it. Ugh, that a black representative has to listen to that garbage spewed and says he hasn’t heard that kind of language for 50 years has to say something about these “patriots”.
Immigration March on the Mall today…I wonder if the tea partiers are staying for that.
I should have said, ‘… dangerously close to losing its legitimacy’ among the more disaffected of the Tea Party movement. Did not mean to imply that our government is now illegitimate. One of the great things about our republic is that there are mechanisms to correct unconstitutional lapses.
@cargosquid
in regard to other news sources-I don’t have an auto gag reflex over what many call mainstream media. Part of my reason for not is because I have found that non msm is just as bad. Having said that, I believe the congressman issued a press release. Additionally, the arrest report came out later in the day. I only read of one arrest.
I never rely on Huff. alone. I check other sources. I am curious why you would believe your sources over mine, just out of curiosity? I know that Arianna Huffington is considered a liberal and all and that the Washingtono Post is considered liberal However, the banner at the top of your source indicated to me that it would be right leaning. I don’t know…too bad there isn’t a moderate newspaper out there.
I have seen many a demonstration. I expect there were some bad folks misbehaviing. I always check out faux news just because it helps to have balance…although not the kind they are talking about.
Are you all serious about the leftist plants? 🙄
Do you understand how that sounds to the average bear?
@Gainesville Resident
Arrgghhhh….The Coffee Party hasn’t done anything but meet. How how on earth can that be compared to a demonstration. Tell me I have misread. Please! If it grew and had people spitting on others or carrying signs threatening Congress or the President’s head coming out of a donkey butt, I would hope they would be exposed.
Fringe here on Moonhowlings? I am trying to think about who you might be referring to. As of Feb 26, which is the birth of Moonhowlings, I actually don’t know of anyone I would consider fringe. If someone is unacceptable, they don’t get through the initial cut.
In fact, someone sent me a snippet of someone whining about that very thing. Let me just say, no one who was on Moonhowlings on or after Feb 26 is banned. However, Elena and I reserve the right to do so any time we feel that comments or individuals are counterproductive to the blog.
If someone is fringe on this blog, in the way you are referring to, GR, they won’t last. I would throw them off in a New York minute.
Kelly, that sounds sort of like one of those ‘but ‘ statements. There really is no excuse.
Bad behavior apologist?
Of course, everyone thinks God is on THEIR side.
And pictures of people behaving doesn’t sell stories.
The right will justify the right, the left will justify the left, and the middle will hopefully do a little purging at election time.
Definitely, they wouldn’t be holding a vote this weekend if they did NOT have the votes. So they couldn’t have scheduled it for this weekend without knowing full well they’d get the votes. I believe your analysis above to be correct.
That’s a very interesting point. Logically, with such a big event in Washington, it definitely makes no sense to divide forces, as you say.
Of course, as it seems in some ways the Tea Party has yet to coalesce around some leadership – there may be those that have adopted the “Tea Party” name, that really aren’t the Tea Party per se. Of course, how can you define who is the “real” Tea Party if there isn’t real leadership at the top. Other’s seem to have noted that there hasn’t yet been a real solidified leadership there. At least that’s what I thought I’ve read somewhere’s recently.
But, what you say makes sense to me – why would they have picked to have a meeting out in Chantilly if they were at the same time planning to have a big demonsration in Washington? It isn’t logical! So, an interesting thought that the press could have been labeling those folks as Tea Party members, when they were not, or they may be fringe folks who have adopted the Tea Party label.
I’m not sure where I said the Coffee Party had a demonstration.
I’m also not sure where I said there were fringe elements on this blog!
Please tell me I’m not going crazy here – and that you completely misread one of my posts!
I’m really surprised you are saying I said these things….
Makes me wonder if I’m wasting my time here.
I just reread what I wrote in the comment you referred to. I can’t see how you could draw conclusions from what I wrote and make the statements you did.
I kind of think I’m really wasting my time here.
Quite frankly, I’m just flabbergasted at it said I made any of those remarks.
OK, you didn’t say that I said the Coffee Party had a demonstration. You said I was comparing the Coffee Party meeting somehow to the Tea Party’s demonstration and making them sound equal.
I did not do that at all and cannot see how you reached that conclusion.
And, you did somehow also reach some conclusion that I wrote that there were fringe elements here on this blog!
I did not write that anywhere.
I guess I don’t think my writing is that bad that it could be misinterpreted that way.
I’ve had words put in my mouth before on the old blog by some frequent posters still with us.
I hate hate hate having words put in my mouth.
I think it’s a waste of time for me to posting here if I constantly have to keep people from saying I said things that I never said.
Sorry, but that’s just how I feel. I don’t know how anyone can take any of my posts lately and claim I said there are fringe elements on this blog! That’s just preposterous, and way way beyond what I would consider a proper debate. I thought this blog was about civil debate….
And, I was speaking in the hypothetical when I said when I referred to the Coffee Party wouldn’t want to be painted by a broad brush if it came to have fringe members, or this blog wouldn’t want to be painted by a broad brush if it had fringe members.
MAYBE, I can see how it could be thought I said this blog had fringe members.
I still don’t see it, but maybe I have blinders on.
Whatever, I guess my writing isn’t up to snuff, and I’m tired of having to defend what I wrote on here. It’s not worth the effort.
Actually, in the spirit of things – let’s just forget about my posts #42 – #45. I really want to make an effort to not be like things were the past few days. I still am not sure what I said that was so offensive in some post of mine up nearer to the top of this thread (above post #42), but whatever it was, I apologize.
@Moon-howler
I would think that the ‘middle’ would be extremely upset that Obama is pushing such a partisan healthcare bill. No other entitlement has been created without bipartisan support, yet Obama will push this through without a single Republican vote.
The theme of this blog has seemed to be about compromise and common ground. With the polarization and ill will created by this, why aren’t moderates jumping up and down and demanding a stop to all this? Even if you agree with the Healthcare bill, how can it be a good thing for the country to force this on so many people who absolutely despise it? If the Coffee Party is about compromise and civil discussion, why are they not objecting to the use of reconciliation?
@Moon-howler
Actually, I’m not “believing” either source. I am taking both at face value until proven other wise. The bigotry may have happened and was not caught on tape. The Congressman could be lying. Anti-Tea Party people have been caught infiltrating to cause trouble. Some Kos diaries speak of wanting to do that.
My point is that one cannot look at the entire demonstration from the actions of a few. There were 30K just at that rally, some of which have never been to a Tea Party rally or meeting. But they are enraged by Congress. Kelly has a good point about the moderates lack of reaction.
Oh, and let me be the first to admit to being a “fringe” element. Remember, the fringe is relative to where the observer stands. Trust me, I moderate myself A LOT, on this blog. My feelings about this current crop of criminals running the government actually forces me to restrict my blogging at UCV. I start reading news and I start seeing red. I don’t advocate violence to solve political problems, but, I can see where frustration with the political class could lead one to believe that may be a solution. Any violence would be counter-productive to the problems we have now. We still have a democratic process available. We still have the freedom to petition the government and to address our representatives. We even have politicians on both sides that even attempt to represent us. So violence is the wrong reaction to the current situation. But emotions are running high. And to those of us that take oaths seriously, to watch the representatives of our nation abrogate their oaths of office so casually, enrages us. If they will lie about their oath, why should I trust them on anything at all. The ends do not always justify the means.
About the Chantilly meet. That local Tea Party probably scheduled that long ago or had it for members unable to travel. The DC rally was not organized by the Tea Party, but, by a Congressman who put out a call on talk radio. Of course, being organized, the Tea Party would be the ones most able to respond.
Hmmmm, kind of like “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State”……..
That ability to be organized and yet being semi-autonomous is one of the reasons governments, state and fed’l, came to not rely on the militia. Organized armed men could also reject the state’s orders as well as carry them out…..
No direct quotes used. just implication and a response. No harm no foul.
Cargo, I don’t internalize politics as much as you do. It just isn’t good for me.
However, when I look at repeat behavior, from all sources, over more than a half years time, then I do draw conclusions. I make inferences from what I have seen. I don’t consider myself fringe. I consider myself mainstream. I suppose in saying I am an average Joe, I am also saying that many people see things as I do.
I don’t like to see a circle of citizens around my capital. The main reason I don’t like seeing it is because I see it as threatening and I also do not agree with the people in the circle in total. And I don’t think it is any more their Capitol than mine.
I didn’t see the hue and cry over these things during the last administration. A billion dollars a week has been spent on Iraq for the past 8 years. NCLB got passed. The RX bill that has a million holes in it that one day I will get to use. My husband uses it now.
The Tea Party I saw does not speak for me. And contrary to popular opinion on the blogs, I am not a member of the Coffee Party either. I am not sure they speak for me either. I am taking a wait and see approach there also.
Kelly, I am not sure if I support it or not. No one has shut up long enough for me to study it. Both sides, the pro and the con have been so busy trying to push opinion and propoganda down the publics throat, who knows what to believe.
I might have liked to listen to it being discussed during town hall meetings. But that wasn’t to be. The opposition outshouted everyone.
I am just watching the drama unfold now. It will pass or it won’t pass. Shrug. I will take the self attitute and just say I pay out of pocket anyway so …what the hell.