in·ci·vil·i·ty (
n
s-vl
-t
)
2. An uncivil or discourteous act.
Just for a moment, remove any accusation of racial slur, the N-word, or spitting. How many of us would like to be an older black man having to walk through an angry mob of white people screaming, taunting, booing, hissing and whatever else they were doing. Those congressman practically had to part the white sea to even move through the crowd.
In the first place, the crowd should not have been that close. The congressmen should have had police escort. I found myself having bad flashbacks to things I have seen on TV throughout my life, things that were going on during my lifetime. No one should dismiss it. Those men were brave to make that walk. If one of them said he was spat on, then he was. Perhaps it was just the spray from the vehenom of hatred spewing from a protestors mouth, but spit is spit–stream, lunger or spray, all gross.
Note: The video is the one Cargo Squid referenced.
They had police escort. The video shows them in the crowd at .04 seconds at the bottom left. Capitol police were everywhere.
“the crowd should not have been that close”
Ummm, the Congressmen CHOSE to walk THROUGH the crowd. The protest was not blocking any doors. And the Congressmen were perfectly safe. The Tea Party has never been connected to any violence. In fact, they cleaned up after themselves. During the first rally, the grounds were spotless after the rally of tens of thousands. The crowd did not even press close to them. They moved out of the way to let them pass.
They were being booed and hissed at because of their actions as representatives. We feel that Congress has mortgaged our grandchildren’s futures wtih their profligate spending, support of corruption, and unconstitutional bills. No one cares what their race is.
Any flashbacks are unfortunate. But that was then. This is now. And there is no connection.
I may be wrong, but you may be projecting fears where you needn’t.
Some matters transcend “civility” when civility does not work. Heck, apparently, incivility works for the Democrats.
I forgot to add,
I do credit those Congressmen with actually having the courage to face the crowd, unlike many Congressmen…..Good for them.
Democrats can be uncivil also. Are you saying that these people who are out there are a bipartisan group?
They chose to walk through the crowd? Did they state this? Should they have hidden or been delivered to the door in an armored car?
Cargo, this congress didn’t start the fire. I have no darlings in this congress and President Obama isn’t my favorite pres by a long shot. I think the conduct is outrageous and very much an attempt at mob rule. I also don’t expect it to go away. I just have a problem with leaving the impression that people are an ugly mob scene.
I have been angry with many things in my life. I have been in demonstrations, huge ones. I hope I didn’t come across like an angry mob who would resort to physical violence to get my way. I have left a demonstration because I did not like the players on my own side. I feared them. I thought they were unpredictable so I left and went home. That’s one thing I learned from watching Kent State on TV as a young person.
Was that THE Tea Party out there?
“who in their right mind would yell racial slurs when there was a mixed crowd on-hand.”
From the man that took that video:
http://maroonedinmarin.blogspot.com/2010/03/heres-some-bigotry-that-new-york-slimes.html
Some of that was the Tea Party but it was NOT organized by the Tea parties. The Tea party is the most organized so they are the ones that can show up on short notice. Many of that group IS bipartisan. There are Democrats involved with the Tea Party.
The Tea Party is about controlling the addiction that Congress has with spending our money. The anger started under Bush. But 99% of the people involved have never been organized and felt alone. Between a few Tea Party activists that had the courage to try something new and Glenn Beck’s 9/12 program, the party movement grew.
People are angry and feel that Congress is actively ignoring their wishes. Polls show that most Americans were NOT happy with the bill. They want reform, but not this bill. Start over and do it right.
Moon, I go along with Cargosquid on this.
(1) According to statements I’ve seen elsewhere, the Capitol Police did offer to escort the congressmen all the way to the Capitol building but the offer was turned down. In fact, as I recall, these were statements by the Capitol Police themselves with specific reference to the alleged spitting incident..
(2) I’ve have also seen reports that all of these Democrats, including Pelosi, Hoyer, et al, had a perfectly secure alternate route into the Capitol Building but chose to take the one that put them within range of the protesters. From the behavior of Pelosi especially during her transit carrying that huge symbolic gavel, I get the strong feeling that she chose the route as an “in-your-face” gesture. In fact, I believe the Capitol Police suggested the alternate route at some point as a way to avoid coming so close to the protest lines.
(3) Are we now to have a double standard? You can protest against White congressmen but not against Black congressmen? If I was Black, I might be a bit offended by that. It’s almost like saying that I don’t have what it takes to face that kind of protest. Au contraire. I agree with the Cargo. By actually walking through the protest lines, I think these guys showed me their stuff.
(4) I would also have to opine that continually labeling a peaceful protest as mob rule is not the way we should go. The next step is to ban all protests completely, and that is a direct violation of the First Amendment. O.K. One man’s protest may be another man’s “mob rule.” But both are purely personal reactions and based in no way on constitutional law.
Moon, I am not coming down on your statements in reference to your own judgements at past protests. You were probably spot on in those instances. But this protest was a peaceful one carried out by people who were lawfully exercising their constitutional rights. If that had not been so, the Capitol Police would have moved everybody out of there. The Capitol Police know their business. In my view, we ought to be damned proud that we are one of the few countries in this world where the people are allowed by constitutional law to express their discontent in this way. I really don’t care what the issue is or what side of that issue you are on. If we wag a finger at the protest depicted here and label it as some sort of mob rule, then we only legitimize those who do the same with regard to that street protest by immigrants on the following day. The fact that both protests were allowed to take place and that both, as far as I know, took place in a lawful and orderly fashion ought to be, in my view, a proud feather in the cap of a nation devoted to freedom.
By the way, there was another Cindy Sheehan/Code Pink ANSWER anti-war rally going on this same weekend. By all accounts, very loud, if smaller. I cannot STAND those people. But I would not consider them mob rule. I applaud their protests as that right to assemble means that I can let my opinions be heard, sometimes quite loudly (I do love a bull horn) and in THEIR faces.
As I said before, one has to look for the small joys in life…..
Wolverine, I think you totally missed my point. Of course I don’t think it would be ok to protest against white people but not against black people. Kindly show me one word where I have said that.
Since I am white, and a contemporary of some of those older men, give or take a few years, I was attempting to put myself in their shoes for just a moment. They and I (and you) share a period of history that younger people will never share.
And on that note, I might add that if someone had spat on me, I would be furious and probably try to rip their face off and would end up in jail. However, if someone called me the N word, it would roll right off my back. I can’t say the same for the black congressmen. While we share historical time, we do not all share the same experiences in that given time.
I see all of this as an attempt at mob rule and I put in the same class as Code Pink people who weren’t about peaceful protest.
Sometimes words can take on a less than peaceful presence. I guess that’s why the law books have a place for ‘fighting words.’
I expect the conservative/centrist difference between us will probably forever prevent us from agreeing.
centrist/leftist difference……fixed it for ya………(grin)
Moon, your first paragraph struck me as saying that it is somehow wrong for an elderly Black man with memories of the worst excesses of the civil rights era to have to walk through a crowd of voiciferous White protesters —as if, by putting ourselves in his shoes, we should realize the mental anguish such a situation might give him. To me, then, the only logical conclusion would be that he should never have to walk through a crowd of White protesters. Well, you write it, and I read it, and maybe the twain doesn’t meet all the time. I understand your point about the possible mental images engendered by the situation. But still, you and I did live through an era when that Black man fought like Hell to gain equal rights and equal respect. So, my inclination is not to say that a “Black man” walked through that crowd of protesters but that a “congressman” did so.
Cargosquid, I’m an Independent (socially liberal, more fiscally conservative) and my impression of the Tea Party is that it’s populated by too many screamers and angry whites. I’m dispassionate about which party is responsible for our economic woes – Obama inherited a whopper of a mess. He has certainly added to the deficit but some of those budget-busting policies were enacted just prior to his assuming the presidency. I find too much of the anger to be hyped up by the Republican party which is responsible for the war debt and lack of health care reform. It appears to be sour grapes. If the Republicans truly gave a damn about the health care available in this country, they would have done something while Bush was in office. Now they’re using it as a political tactic. The yelling and screaming don’t accomplish reform.
I’m white and a contemporary of those older men as well. Many of the screamers are white and my age. I don’t believe everyone has become enlightened and changed when it comes to race. Many older men had an awful lot of privileges based strictly on their white skin and they now have to share. They’re angry. They bellow out that women, blacks, gays, Hispanics, etc. are looking for “special priveleges”. Ha! We’re just looking for what they’ve had all along.
I applaud the Congresspeople for walking through the crowd. They showed that they wouldn’t be intimidated.
Groups should always be leery of agitators. They could be the truly loony, the opposition, or a police plant.
It appears to be sour grapes because that is how the general media portrays it. Yes, Bush had a deficit. 453 billion in his last year and it was shrinking. Obama has QUADRUPLED that already and future deficits are just as big. And those projections were before the health care debacle.
No one in the Tea Party is asking for “special privileges.” In fact, a large percentage, including Richmond’s, of the chapters, are organized by women.
Health Care reform is not and was not a priority for the GOP. 85% of Americans are happy with their insurance. NO politician wants to get involved in meaningful reform because it would tick off the lawyers and the corporations. Health care insurance reform has to to start with the states. They are in charge of insurance laws in their states. Insurance needs to be de-coupled from employment. Wage laws during WWII caused employers to offer benefits. Subsequent law embedded the practice.
Health care is not a right. Neither is health insurance. And growing MORE government involvement is definitely NOT part of the GOP platform. But free market reforms are scary and difficult for politicians because reform to a politician is all about MORE control. And that is what ObamaCare is all about. More control.
According to your description, you would fit in with the Tea Party. They are primarily concerned with fiscal matters and not social matters.
Cargo, do you really feel Wolverine is a centrist? I do not. I take him at his word and he described himself as a conservative. I might stick a moderate in front of conservative if I were describing him to someone else and depending on the topic. However, I let him define himself.
I am left of center on some topics. I am not a leftist however. Too many ‘but if’s’ for a leftist. I also have no ideology which makes me a poor candidate for left or right. Center has no ideology as a rule. We borrow the best from both sides.
Centrist? I don’t think so and saying it time and time again does not make it so, nor does it for the Coffee Party, which is increasingly looking llike nothing more than the Party’s Lipstick pt on the pig. Obama said that Obamacare proves this is a government of the people, and by the people” — well, yes, except for the 55% of the people who opposed it. No, there is a big , big difference between liberals and maintream centrists and the difference is that which exists between private enterprise and self-reliancy – first and the promotion – even the expectation – of dependency, which is the Democratic Party’s vocation. IMHO, any attempt to kafuddle vocal opposition to Obamacare, immigration control or Cap & Trade – regardless of educational level of the articulation – with real racism, mobism, or extremism, is entering very dangerous territory.
Moon, I was just kidding around, based on our previous “conversations” on where fringe would be considered, based upon where one stood.
All political positioning is based relative to one’s own positions…that’s all.
According to Pelosi, Bush was a right wing nut job. According to me, he was a centrist and Cuccinelli is to my right. According to Cuccinelli (I’m guessing), he’s probably center/right…..because he believes that America is basically conservative.
Cargo, I knew you were kidding. And you and I agree that fringe is relative. I would agree with your assessment of where the AG is in comparison to you. I wouldn’t begin to venture a guess where he sees himself. I don’t have those kinds of powers. 😉
Taxpayer, you simply do not have the right to define me. You may think what you chose. What would you do if you ever met a liberal face to face? I could call one up for you if you want. Trust me, I am not a liberal. My liberal friends used to keep me around as their token conservative, even though *I* knew I wasn’t.
But then again, this isn’t about me.
I pretty much agree with Censored, at least at a 90%.
I can’t recall who said it. I don’t believe that 85% of the people like their health care. I don’t know where that comes from. Health care has higher co-pays and fewer services across the board. I don’t trust a lot of these statistics. All of these political questions depend on how the question is framed for starters. A 10 year old knows how to frame a question for a desired outcome.
Cargosquid, I’d definitely pass on joining the Tea Party. I grew up in the South in the 50s/60s. Too much about the Tea Party reminds me of that era. Social liberalism trumps finances on that issue. 😉
Referencing Wolverine’s earlier post – I don’t doubt there’s secure alternate routes to the Capitol Building. Actually, isn’t there some underground passageway system from the other buildings? Anyway, Pelosi and others wanted to choose the most visible route I’m sure, to put on a big show. I’m sure the Capitol Police suggested the safest route – but that probably was viewed as not giving them enough visibility/publicity. So, in some ways – ignore the Capitol Police’s advice at your own peril!
That’s not to say what happened out there wasn’t wrong – it was – at least the outrageous behavior of shouting racial epithets and other things noted above.
But, by the same token, it didn’t take a genius to see that there was a large crowd out there – and they had to know there’s a lot of angry people out there.
Still, that doesn’t make it right what happened. Although I still believe these are fringe elements, and while it makes good headlines and pictures, may not at all be representative of what was going on down there. Again, I’m not saying it is right for some of the extreme things down there – with the crazy signs, racial epithets, etc.
@Censored bybvbl
Well, if you insist, but, I think that if you went to a meet or two or came down here to Richmond on April 15th, you would enjoy it.
Why would a mere handful of alleged idiots and their bad behavior define the entire protest? These alleged incidents are growing larger than life here. I’m sure some vile stuff was said on the pro-bill side, and was conveniently overlooked by the media.
And I sincerely hope we are not supposed to walk on eggshells around black lawmakers because any protest might provoke flashbacks. I’m sure most of them would not care to be thought of as so emotionally fragile.
Speaking of incivility (with an open microphone):
“After introducing Obama at Tuesday’s health-care bill signing ceremony, Vice President Biden turned to the president and said, “This is a big [expletive] deal.”
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/03/did-biden-tell-obama-signing-w.html?hpid=topnews
That Biden is a class act.
Emma,
It doesn’t. But that is the message that is put out by the media. EVERY bad guy that can be imagined to have ties to the Tea Party, is said to be an example. The IRS Plane crasher – said to be a Tea Partier: Nope. Pentagon shooter: Nope. But that did not stop the media from trying to tie them to us. The mantra of violent racist has spouted from their lips since the first rally.
With no evidence. At all. Anywhere.
There are kooks at every rally. And Tea Partiers are the FIRST to denounce them.
I tried to post the raw video for the unbelievers, and it’s not working. Check out yahoo news.
HuffPo:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/23/a-big-fucking-deal-bidens_n_509927.html
Emma, who are the unbelievers? Are you surprised by Biden?
Not at all, Censored. He gives me hope that there is at least one human being in the administration.
Hey Moon, your moderation didn’t work for certain words not starting with N. Take a look above at #25 in the video title. Oops!
Hey, I didn’t say it, Biden did.
I don’t have that word as a trigger word, SA. I only have 1 word as a trigger word right now…the N-word. So feel free to use the F-word, everyone.
In general, I seem to remember a certain ex-president calling a certain newspaper reporter an A-H. It made him human. Same with Joe. I had to put on earphones to hear it. Somehow when I have to put on ear phones to filter out an oooooppppps, it isn’t quite as bad.
Or perhaps another explanation might be that you have to take the F-word pill before being sworn in. Biden sort of goofed though, its supposed to be said on the floor of the Senate, not in the White House.
And ol’ Joe wasn’t being uncivil. He was using it as an appropriate adjective.
I posted this somewhere else; however, since the topic of this thread appears to be civility, I thought I would move it.
I believe in our Constitution and am a big fan of the II Amendment. That is why I absolutely support a person’s Constitutional right to open carry (carry a weapon in a holster for all to see) in all venues. I am also a big fan of the I Amendment. That is why I absolutely support a person’s Constitutional right to fart in Church. It is a protected form of free speech. The perpetrator of either Constitutional right knows that he or she is making a lot of other people uncomfortable and is offending normal societal standards of conduct; however, they appear to enjoy it and that is their right. I consider both roughly equivalent Constitutional rights and offensive acts.
I can only imagine that in the small subset of the population that actually engages in these activities, the folks who open carry and fart in Church at the same time are true heroes to their peers.
I agree Cargo.
I think everyone needs to stop being such a tight ass 🙄
The day I fell in love with George Bush, after a long period of dislike, was when he referred to the (I think it was the NYTImes ) reporter as an asshole. You gotta love the guy for being human. Same with Joe.
Thanks for moving that analogy, Skeptic. It definitely addresses civility and incivility. 🙄
I have been seeing red since the HCB was passed. In the interest of civility, I have not posted until now.
In viewing the video, it was clear to me that the walk through the protesters was intended as a taunt and in-your-face victory lap. In order to get civility, one has to be civil. In my mind, these Congressmen got exactly what they deserved, which was being on the receiving end of a healthy dose of free speech.
Skeptic,
Very funny. Apparently, you are able to keep it sucked up inside during Church. Oh, and I don’t open carry in order to make people uncomfortable nor have I encountered many when I did. I open carry because the government tells me that it is necessary for me do so. So, by your logic, it is the government’s fault that people are alarmed.
These Tea Party people are nothing more than cowardly terrorists like Al Qaeda and Bin Laden. They have lost whatever claim they may have had to the moreal high ground in the health care debate.
Starry, get a grip, and a life. That comment was after 2AM. The only thing that keeps me up that late at night is wondering how much more control of my life and my income is this administration going to demand. Spreading the wealth is only popular with those who never did anything with the opportunities available to them, but hey they all vote Democrat, so I guess it’s more a form of buying votes in the end.
Starry, while I appreciate your morning humor, that is probably a little over the top to compare TPP to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden. Is that the middle eastern version of Hitler and Nazi?
Please, all, I don’t feel like having to do trigger words. They have a lot of unintended consequences. For instance, if I have to do Al Qaeda, Al Alborn will always be in moderation, Second Alamo will always be in moderation.
I certainly don’t think that TPP are terrorists. I think some of them need much better manners and a good swift boot in the butt. However, that is going to have to be delivered by their own tribe. And it will, when the responsible members of TPP get tired of having a few bad apples and jerk dilute their message.
Yeah, the Tea Party folks are a bunch of terrorists… Talk about hyperbole. For some people here, anyone they disagree with they label as a bunch of things – take your pick: Nazi, racist, terrorist.
They make those words meaningless when they do so.
Go show me where the Tea Party is planning to blow up people, or do some other terrorist action. I challenge StarryFlights to do that.
And you’ve lost any claim to being able to rationally debate things and for anyone to take you seriously when you say stuff like that.
That’s just the liberal news media spinning things. Yet, no one labeled all liberals as bad when a handful of liberal protestors had nasty signs during Bush’s innaugural – labeling him as a thief, a liar, a criminal, and someone even threw an egg at his limo – all because they thought he stole the election. I don’t remember seeing articles in the newspaper saying all liberals are an angry mob, or all Democrats are an angry mob.
But that’s just what’s being done here. Interesting, when one side wants to take a few events and paint the other side (in this case the Tea Party) as a big angry mob.
Just thought you might like to see more evidence that the whole “N-word” fiasco is trumped up.
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/03/media-fraud-more-proof-that-leftist-media-lied-about-racist-attacks-on-black-reps-while-they-ignored-vulgar-attacks-by-lib-politicians/
and
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/03/anatomy_of_a_racial_smear_1.html
Excerpt from above:
To give the story poignancy, reporter William Douglas makes iconic civil rights veteran John Lewis the subject of the abuse. He is the “congressman” alluded to in the headline. The only problem is that Lewis never heard anything. This is the first of the fabrications.
According to the article, Lewis was walking from the Cannon Office Building to the Capitol when protesters started shouting. According to Lewis, however, what they shouted was not a racial slur, but “Kill the bill, kill the bill.” If he heard anything more derogatory, he does not seem to have told Douglas about it.
Lewis, it should be noted, is no slouch when it comes to race-baiting. During the 2008 campaign, he compared the McCain-Palin campaign to that of “presidential candidate George Wallace,” whose comparable “atmosphere of hate” led to the fatal church bombing in Birmingham. So egregious were Lewis’s comments that McCain called on Obama to “condemn” them.
As Douglas reports, it was Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-MO), a Lewis colleague walking a few steps behind him, who actually claimed to have heard the slur. Note the way that Douglas runs these sentences together.
Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, D-Mo., said he was a few yards behind Lewis and distinctly heard “nigger.”
“It was a chorus,” Cleaver said. “In a way, I feel sorry for those people who are doing this nasty stuff — they’re being whipped up. I decided I wouldn’t be angry with any of them.”
Douglas deliberately leaves the impression that Cleaver heard a “chorus” of people shouting racial slurs. The use of the plural in the headline is the second of the fabrications. The chorus was, in fact, shouting, “Kill the Bill.”
William Owens, a black Tea Party activist from Nevada who had joined in the protests, confirmed to FOXNews.com, “Never did I hear any type of racial slur.”
House majority whip James CIyburn, who walked with the contingent from the Black Caucus, heard no racist remarks either.
Alleged. That way, when you smear someone, its not necessary to apologize.
@cargosquid
I prefer concealed carry unless I’m in a really remote place simply because I know open carry makes people uncomfortable. That’s just me… I respect the Constitutional rights of others to chose a different route. It’s too easy to conceal “heavy metal” in an urban situation to do otherwise.
@Skeptic
One cannot carry concealed in a restaurant serving alcohol, in Virginia, so open carry is mandatory. I like concealed carry, too, for the reason that it makes me less of a target and I don’t feel that I have enough retention training.
I’m glad you recognize it makes some people feel uncomfortable. And, I do understand like what cargosuid says in the post after yours – that in restaurants you must open carry. That’s how that whole incident at Tony’s in Manassas started a few years ago – there were people open carrying in there and it made some people uncomfortable. But, the folks open carrying were doing nothing wrong and people may not have realized they were just following the law. I also think the press distorted a lot of what happened in that particular case. Still, I’m glad to hear some folks who have concealed carry permits do realize that open carrying makes some people feel uncomfortable. At least in a restaurant situation, even though you must open carry – if I saw a group of people walk in all open carrying, it would make me a little nervous.
Open carry has also prevented incidents. My favorite story is the incident where a man that open carried, went to the bank. As he was quietly filling out his deposit slip, behind him came a man wearing a mask. That man stopped as soon as he saw the armed citizen, turned, and fled.
Many carriers have people come up, thanking them for being armed. I’ve seen it in person. I think that, at least in Virginia, most people, when the notice, IF they notice, don’t care one way or the other. Most assume, incorrectly, that the carrier is law enforcement. Open carry has its proponents and detractors throughout the gunnie blogosphere, so I won’t go further on this.
I would assume that about one person if I saw them open carrying – that they may be a detective or something. However, in the incident in the restaurant in Manassas, if I had seen a large group of people walk in open carrying (I’m not sure how many were in that group but it sounded like 3 people at least and maybe a lot more than that) I would at least wonder what’s going on.
I don’t doubt that open carry has prevented some incidents. Obviously a criminal if seeing someone with a gun, might think twice about trying something, either to that person or to anyone else in the vicinity. So, I’m sure it has served as a deterrent to a lot of criminal activity.
Cargo, let me give you just a personal opinion about open carry. A police officer in open carry is most likely to be in uniform. Plain clothes, with which I spent many years working, usually have their weapons concealed, shoulder holster or belt, with a backup somewhere on the body. The exception is if there is an incident occurring right at that time and in the vicinity. Sometimes you can tell the conceal if the holster fit is bad. Depends on the body shape of the individual cop.
What bothers me is if someone in mufti with no obvious law enforcement insignia shows up in a public place in an open carry mode. I have no way of knowing visually if this is a cop or other security person breaking the usual mold. I also have no way of knowing if this is one of my philosophical pals — to wit, an honest, sober, and conscientious gun owner who is simply exercising his civil rights. The third possibility is what scares the Hell out of me: somebody taking advantage of the open carry laws in order to facilitate an unlawful act. In past years, I never worried about it too much; and, in fact, it was pretty rare to see open carry except for hunting weapons in hunting season. Now we have not only an unusal but still lawful fascination with and availability of some pretty heavy and fancy artillery; but combine that with incident after incident of shootings in public places — restaurants, nursing homes, schools, malls — and I get real nervous in a situation where I do not have a means to identify immediately the possible intentions of the open carry individual. If I am sitting in a mall and somebody shows up with an AK-47, I am going to get out of there without hanging around to ask questions. Then I call 911. Period.