Elena and I have agreed to print a guest post that will ultimately involve many of us here in Prince William County regarding the new elementary school proposal at Stonewall Middle. You will see this same post on bvbl.net. The ladies who present you with this information made arrangements with both Greg and me to disseminate this information to as many people as possible. Please let me know if you need to contact them for more information. The guest post does not necessarily represent the views of moonhowlings.net administration.
Guest post by Allison K. and Chris P.
While there have been no new developments built in the Westgate/Sudley area for 25 years, the PWC School Board is proposing that a new elementary school be built at Stonewall Middle School where the track and the bus lot stand today. For a link to the Planning Staff Report, visit http://www.pwcgov.org/planning/documents/PLN2010-00108.pdf
There are three elementary schools in Westgate and Sudley that are all less than a mile apart – Westgate, Sinclair, and Sudley. Westgate is two short blocks away from the proposed new elementary school, Sinclair is approximately four blocks away, and Sudley is approximately 6 blocks away.
Lomond Drive will be home to a new turning lane and likely a new stoplight, and student drop off/access points will be located on King George Drive in Westgate and Brandon Way in Sudley. The Planning Staff will let VDOT determine if stoplights need to be installed on Sudley Manor Drive and Lomond Drive. This proposed school would impact the Level of Service on Lomond Drive. Additionally, there is a gross tonnage weight restriction for trucks on Lomond Drive.
So why haven’t you heard about the plan to put an elementary school at Stonewall Middle School? Because the law dictates that only property owners within 200 feet of the school property line be advised of the County’s plans. A plan of this scale impacts the entire community!
The Planning Commission has the power to say NO to this project. All those interested in stopping this elementary school need to contact the PWC Board of Supervisors (e-mail [email protected]), the PWC School Board (e-mail [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]),
and the PWC Planning Commission (http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=040073003100005693).
There is a final hearing of the Planning Commission on April 7, 2010, at 7 p.m., at The James J. McCoart Building in the PWBOCS Board Chambers; 1 County Complex Ct ; Prince William, VA 22192
We are preparing a list of drawbacks and comments for the Planning Commission, a few of which are identified below:
SJVFD is currently at 156% capacity. The Planning Staff Report says a new school with 850 students (don’t forget the teachers and administrative staff as well) would have no significant impact on SJVFD.
This proposed school would benefit few, if any, students from the Westgate and Sudley communities. The one development plan (Portsmouth Station) that may have created additional housing units on the eastern side of 234 has been withdrawn. New development and overcrowded schools are on the western side of 234, where any proposed school should be located.
The School Board should consider a possible land swap or purchase with the PWCBOS or PWCPA. The site at SMS is 1.8 acres short of the required 60 acres, with another 1.25 acres on a large hill which is unusable. The total acreage does not meet the county standard for minimum land acreage for this proposed school site. In addition, there is an eighty foot wide NOVEC easement that runs between the two parcels for this plan (this is contrary to the Comprehensive Plan).
The best solution would be to find a new site that would better serve the area of growth. Elementary schools should be in the neighborhoods they serve.
I’m glad to see this cooperation between the two websites. I can’t intelligently comment on the actual issue though – as I haven’t really followed it.
This is related to money. In fact, the same thing will happen the following year in Haymarket. There’s a plan in 2014 to build an elmementary school right next door to Tyler Elementary simply because the school district already owns the land.
Developers have gotten off easy. Two examples are Dominion Valley and Piedmont. Toll Brothers development at Dominion Valley proffered 2 elementary school sites(Alvey & Gravely) and 1 middle school site(Silver Lake). Three-fourths of the enrollment at Alvey are Dominion Valley residents and construction is probably only half way built out. Basically they are building schools that will handle the people that they attract to the area. It is the same thing at Mountain View which replaced Gainesville Elementary and now is completely occupied by residents of Piedmont.
My suspicion is that the boundaries will be drawn to reduce overcrowding at schools in the Linton Hall Corridor. If I can find the enrollment projections, it probably shows that’s the case. I will investigate tomorrow.
Also, David Beavers is a wonderful resouce at the County level.
It isn’t cooperation between the two sites. The ladies cut their deals with each of us.
It just goes to show that those of us with diametrically opposing viewpoints can work together for the good of our community. Thank you for posting.
Indeed, it has to do with money. However, if they can’t afford the land, then how do they plan to have money for a new school.
Developers have gotten off way to easy. When WG and Sudley were built Hylton and Sorrenson they planned for schools. It’s time the delvelopers were told if you don’t want to proffer land for schools then you are not welcome to build residential units in PWC. Also, the schools need to be built before the housing units. Planning needs to do better and quit saying a plan such is this is good. I’m sure it will happen in other areas too. We need to take action to try to stop such piss poor planning.
I agreed, up until the last sentence. I plead the 5th for now
Way to go, Allison and Chris. Sounds like you’ve done your homework and you’re offering intelligent solutions. Hope the community rallies around your efforts for smart growth.
That area is already seems the most crowded of the whole neighborhood. I can’t imagine squeezing another school into that small area where the buses congregate, especially when other areas of the county are crying out for schools. It’s also the most littered, with all those free papers rotting along the curb lines (sorry, I’m always focusing on litter!).
Just two weeks to go…even if the planning commission says no, do you think the BOCS will listen? Haven’t they ignored recommendations of the commission in the past?
Thank you, Cindy.
Unfortunately, you are absolutely right about the BoS ignoring the recommendation of Planning Commission. This must stop. Why have a Planning Commission, if the Planning Staff’s recommendation are what the BoS side with. Anyone, that looks at the plan in the link will see Planning Staff contradicts itself.
I told the School Board last week the traffic on Lomond Dr with a new school would be bleeding over to the two cities via Liberia Ave & Manassas Dr.. Lomond Dr get sreally backed up as it is. Now, add another school to the mix. Traffic on Lomond Dr will have an impact on the two cities.
The residents on the western side of 234 should be infuriated at the thought of an elementary school on the other side of 234. There will be a lot of money spent on transportaion for elementary students. Elementary schools usually in neighborhoods that they serve and are walkable. This site is not walkable for the vast majority, if not the entire student body.
Why should an older established neighborhood that’s already overburdened with it’s own traffic have to be subjected to this project. Our neighborhoods stand to benefit the least if any.
If you want to advocate for long term value in the design and planning of the school (so you can get good neighborhood schools), consider borrowing arguments from the Smart Growth Schools Report Card at http://www.smartgrowthschools.org
@Alanna
Comment#6 was for you.
I sure hope Mom comes along. I can’t wait to read their response to your last sentence. 🙂
We all have different experiences that’s for sure.
Number#4, sorry, Alanna.
Lafayette, we don’t have kids in the schools so I haven’t followed school board policy very closely. Have any land swaps been done once there’s a school on a property? And would the neighbors even want that to happen?
“Wonderful resource” you’ve got to effing be kidding me, he’s nothing more than a …………………………………, best I be civil lest I be crucified. I’ll give you “David Beaver is a _______.” but I will leave it your imaginations to fill in the blanks. BTW, this fiasco has his fingerprints all over it.
Lafayette, get a hold of Elena and have her give you my e-mail and phone number, there are so many things wrong with this I hardly know where to start. It serves as a perfect example of everything that is wrong with County and School Planning Offices.
@Censored bybvbl
The plan actually involves two parcels. One parcel would have both schools on it. Meanwhile, on the ridge there would be 3 soccer fields, football field w/track, and baseball diamond. The upper parcel is not developed, and currently used for numerous soccer games. They’ve not even consolidated the two parcels. Therefore, it’s realistic they could swap the fields with the PWCPA. Nah, that might make sense.
Censored, I forgot to include the land swap doesn’t have to neccessarily be with the SMS site. Many families, teens, seniors, and dogs enjoy the open fields and walk/run the track daily. The three boards need to work more cooperatively in this types of matters.
@Mom
I have sent Elena an e-mail. It’s fitting to point out to others the few problems listed in the post are just the tip of the iceberg. Them wanting to put this school at this site gets my blood boiling just like the county turning down Disney. Meanwhile, they are looking into possibly purchasing Bush Gardens Williamsburg.
Can someone explain why they’re proposing to build an elementary school at this site? Are there lots of proposed developments in the area? Are there lots of undelivered units? What is projected enrollment at the other elementary schools in the area over the next 5 + years?
I guess I’m confused. If the schools in the area aren’t overcapacity and there’s no planned or scheduled development in the are, then why push for a new school site? Could it be that some of the schools in the area are older, smaller schools and they hope to consolidate them at a larger, newer building? That doesn’t seem to be a wise decision considering our current fiscal condition.
Building a school there for the Linton Hall corridor is beyond stupid. The kids would spend a huge amount of time stuck on a bus getting there because the buses would have to cross many heavily traveled roads.
There’s got to be a reason, but I have no clue what that reason might be.
Having looked at the plan (should have done that first DUH!), it does appear that the 2 of 4 elementary schools close by are overcrowded now (less than 20% overcapacity) and 3 of the 4 will be more than 20% overcapacity by 2019. That apparently means a new school should be planned.
There’s a big difference between what’s planned and what’s going to happen. The new Elementary school on Kettle Run has been planned for more than 4 years. It won’t open until the fall of 2011.
I suspect, and this is pure speculation on my part, that there is something bigger afoot. The 4 schools affected are small schools. Perhaps the school district plans to close one of them and consolidate it into the larger new school which will have the space to handle the overcapacity from the other 3 schools and enrollment growth.
KimS,
We’ve not heard any word of school closings on the eastern side. The majority of kids would be coming from Mullen, Ellis, and western side of 234. There’s not been a single new housing unit in the immediate area in 25 years. There’s no more room for new development. WestGate & Sudley have been developed for 40 years and borders Fairfax County. Even during the peak of overcrowding in our neighborhoods there was never a need for a new school on this side of 234.
The boundaries are easy to adjust for walkers at the three existing elementary schools. This has been done several times over the decades. The ripple effect from other overcrowded schools comes into play. However, why not build a new school where the new construction is.
Anyone that’s not familiar with the site, I would suggest taking a field trip to Stonewall Middle one morning or afternoon. You would not have to be traffic specialist with VDOT to figure out Lomond Dr is not equiped to handle much more traffic.
KimS,
I forgot to add the part that the original Staff report was based on four schools. Then at the Planning Commission Public Hearing, Ms Hannon of the schools throws in that Ellis is over capacity too. Well, everyone of the citizens already knew that, and couldn’t understand why that shcool was not listed in the original staff report.
Chris P
No one is sure what is meant by over capacity. Hopefully Mr. Richardson might come along and answer that question.
I know that Westgate used to have a bazillion trailers out back. Sinclair had a bunch too. How do trailers impact ‘capacity?’
Is ‘capacity’ based on how many kids per square foot or it is a fire marshall definition determined by how long it takes to get kids of out a building in an emergency?
It seems to me like that is a critical piece of information.
Where is other land available near the Sudley Manor Corridor on the other side of 234?
I hope someone comes along and clarifies capacity. However, I’m basing my opinion on the numbers given by the schools that are included in the staff report. The definition of capacity by the schools more than likely is not the same of the fire marshall. This is a problem in my mind. I feel the fire marshall’s numbers would prevail. I believe they would be based on the Universal Fire/Building Code, whereas, the school would have a capacity number based on managable class size. I think this has been an ongoing question with many. I think it’s time we get the answer.
yes, Laf. It seems to be the best kept secret in town. I know that the numbers and formulas for new schools very much depends on futures, demographic changes, projections. However it also depends on how many deals have been cut under the rug and behind closed doors with developers.
Another question…what property does the county outright own? Isn’t most of it proffered land or is it coming from other places?
The county owns a great deal of land free and clear. I think Mom or others might be better able to answer the proffered land question. I have a busy day tomorrow.
Will you be here tomorrow evening if people have questions?
“Elementary schools should be in the neighborhoods they serve.”
Makes sense. Build it elsewhere.
@Moon-howler
I will be around this evening. Chris
We were told capacity is what the cafeteria and library were designed to hold. You can add more kids in trailers, but eventually the cafeteria just won’t seat any more kids during the lunchtime hours, even in shifts.
@anona
Seriously? The cafeteria and library are determining factors of capacity. Who said that? Kids spend their day in the classrooms. When they add trailers they usually don’t add bathrooms. Brentsville District High School comes to mind on the bathroom shortage.
All I know is that is what we were told by Mr. Beavers when we questioned how many trailers they were putting here at Bristow Run a few years ago. Not sure if this was state law or how they come up with the required square footage in the cafeteria in the first place but I would guess that there is some state requirement?
At the time we were questioning whether our capacity number would go up when they added the trailers but it didn’t. Only permanent classrooms would up the capacity and only if the cafeteria and library could hold the kids in permanent classrooms.
I have a hard time picturing where this new school is supposed to go. But I am glad to see some cooperation here. Good for you, ladies!
Allison and Chris have spearheaded several community efforts. They are a force to be reckoned with.
Pinko…know where the electric company is? Lomond Drive? Come down the street about 3 blocks and SJMS will be on your left. There is a bus lot along side of their property that cannot be missed. Right in there, is my understanding.
OMG where the buses are??? I’ve been to that school. That’s crazy. It’s like putting the elementary school next to the high school (Ellison next to Stonewall). Why do they do that? I guess it’s a land issue?
Capacity is determined by the number of students the building is designed to hold at the time of design – so it is based on the fire marshall’s recommendations, not what the library and cafeteria could hold (I know that the HS I worked at wouldn’t have been able to hold all of the students in the cafeteria and library if the classrooms were unavailable).
It’s up to each district to decide upon capacity. I’ve looked and there is no state requirement.
Anona is right about trailers – they aren’t considered permanent (although they usually end up being permanent). So technically, a school could be over capacity even with trailers, since the trailers don’t count in the square footage of the school.
HTH – maybe Mr. Richardson could clarify – all the info that I have is from FCPS, which doesn’t help for PWC –
But at least at Ellison there is plenty of room and a need for an elementary school. Stonewall MS needs repairs and that money would be better well spent upgrading the local elementary schools and SMS than cramming a new school on those grounds
Meaning – there was plenty of land at the site where Ellison was built to accommodate an elementary school – sorry that was vague
‘Capacity’ means different things to different people, depending on who you talk to in PWC. Actually, the use of the word needs to be anchored down here for Chris and Allison to continue the detailed word they are doing.
When I see 12 trailers and read that a school is under capacity, it makes me wonder who is blabbering fluff. Apparently that is a thin red line that isn’t permanent. It moves.
Chris said
Lomond Drive has become a major thoroughfare ‘across town.’ Unfortunately, it is also a residential street from 234 (actually further) almost to 28 just post Mathis Avenue. Even looking at the proposed rendition of the new plan, it is difficult to imagine where everything in the super complex will go. The Brandon Way access will file past people’s houses as will the King George access.
Somehow I doubt that is what those people over on King George had in mind some 40 years ago when those houses went up. Ditto to the 30 or 30 plus years ago for Brandon Way.
Putting in a school complex congests and complicates a neighborhood. This plan is a double whammy for both Sudley and Westgate and it will further snurl traffic for miles in the morning and at dismissal. Commuters have a difficult enough time getting out of town.
There is lots of virgin land down the new Sudley Manor Drive corridor. Didn’t the county get any proffered land out of all those developments? Are they hiding it? Put new schools in down that way.
If the county didn’t extract school sites from developers down that way then purge time should become a reality in 2011.
I continue to question what ‘at capacity’ means. Someone from the county just needs to tell the truth about what that term means. Is it a fire marshall term? How long does it take to get x number of kids and staff out of a building in an emergency? Does it deal with number of bathrooms? Does it have to do with how many kids fit into a classroom? Does it have to do with how many kids can be served lunch in a 25 minute lunch session? I have heard all of the above given as answers.
This information shouldn’t have to be extracted. Must someone file a FOIA request for a definition? What data is used to calculate ‘at capacity?’
Westgate is the oldest school. When was it last expanded or remodeled? What is its overall condition? Will millions of dollars be spent upgrading it like Yorkshire, only to turn around and have to replace the school? Would the new school replace Westgate Elementary?
Why are Chris and Allison having to extract information about a school that will hammer traffic conditions in a neighorhood? Why hasn’t this school been publicized all over the front pages of the local papers? Thanks ladies, for doing the leg work on this. It affects all of us who have to go from point A to point B. It affects everyone who has an up and coming middle school student in Sudley and Westgate. We don’t even know who else will be effected.
Too bad that a blog has to be the ‘town crier.’ I hope you all will stay on this one. let me know when we need to put up additional information.
[Note: any comments under the name Moon-howler are my opinion as an individual and citizen of the county, and do not reflect an official position by moonhowlings.net]
I need to point out that the link originally provided with Plan, has been updated as of 3/26/10. The updated information that’s now included has the Resolution to continue public comment, as well as letter from the school board attorneys. Apparently, they are saying issues brought up by citizens were outside of the PFR hearing. They state traffic would be construction traffic. We the citizens had many concerns beyond just the construction. This is very misleading in my opinion. Citizens are not lawyers and planning staff, but they are having to the work of these types of proffessional. This is simply should NOT be.
PWC Schools and Fire Dept.,
Please, could each of you define “capacity” for those of us concerned citizens. Frankly, I don’t understand why something as important as safety, such as capacity is a deep dark secrect. This should NOT be. We the citizens should know the definition to ensure our childrens’ safety. This should be PUBLIC INFORMATION!!
Here’s another question I’ve asked time and time again. Are the schools adding to an overcrowded school when they receive grant money for smaller classroom size? How many students are in some of these classrooms? Do we have full size classrooms being used for small classes? Somehow, I bet this happening at a school or two. It’s also, important to point out that there are some elementary schools with capacity as low as 77%, while others are at 140% or more. I question the schools maximizing their space. With such variance in capacity, perhaps it’s time talk boundary line adjustments. I know people don’t like to hear that, but it is something that should be seriously considered.
It’s Saturday morning 11:40. Allison and I have been working on this for almost 4 hours each this morning, and we’ve only just begun. I’m sure those folks from the schools and planning are enjoying their weekend. Meanwhile, the citizens are working very hard in their spare time.
I don’t think they have received grant money for smaller classroom sizes. What would the source be?
At last glance, the superintendent has been trying to do away with smaller classes. Inclusion is the word of the day/week/month/year.
I misunderstood the bus entrances.
Please post your comments on the various drawbacks of the proposed school: traffic, safety, site plan, fire & rescue, the design of the school, the lack of adequate space for the necessary sports areas, the removal of the trees, etc. We are compiling a “Citizen Report” for the Planning Commission meeting on April 7th.
There is a huge need to define ‘capacity.’ Put more simply, are Westgate, Sudley, Sinclair overcrowded without the use of trailers? Trailers are a very poor idea and should only be used for a temporary solution.
I think the term ‘capacity’ is being used to obfuscate real facts.
I think the crux of the argument becomes how many kids would be bussed in from across 234? If the number of kids coming from across 234, is more than a handful. then the school site needs to come from the newer areas over in those neighborhoods IF land is own by the county. (and if it isn’t we need to have someone’s head on a platter for not insisting on enough proffered land)
Building a super school complex in an older neighborhood will tax already over-used streets like Lomond Drive. Lomond Drive is for all intents and purposes a residential street. Lomond has already become a commuter route in the morning and the evenings. People can’t even get out of the own driveways in a timely manner. I have seen traffic backup way past flat branch in the evening traffic.
Putting an elementary school in that area turns that place into a snurl for about an hour and a half in the morning and the same or more in the afternoon.
There are walkers holding up traffic, there are buses getting out of bus lots, and there are parents doing the pick up already. Add another 800 kids to the area (assuming that SMS has 1000-1100 students) and you simply repeat the same problem again in the morning.
Afternoon gets stretched out even further because of school sports and then the NOVA classes and Parks and Rec activities.
The main access for this complex will be on a residential street.
Capacity should be based on 2 things: 1. Student and personnel safety and 2. ARe there enough classes to get the job done and within those classes, is there enough room to provide meaningful instruction. Squeezing 38 kids in a classroom is a joke. Creating a classroom in a stair well is a joke. Holding classes in the lunchroom is a joke.
Until an evaluation is done in those terms, all other definitions of capacity are just pure, simple BS.
There’s a Public Hearing scheduled for the extension of Godwin Dr. across Lomond Dr and into Fairfax. The Public Hearing signs are posted and it’s impossible to read while driving and not impeeding traffic on Lomond Dr at Flat Branch Bridge. The Staff Report on the school site was very small in scope in many aspects, but certainly in the traffic impact portion of the report. It most certainly did not take into account that a major road would be cutting through our neighborhoods of WestGate and Loch Lomond. Will there be a traffic light before you cross Flat Branch Bridge? Will Godwin Dr. extension be a flyover in the middle of a residential area? This new road will also be bringing in more vehicles into the residential area. What’s going with Planning in PWC? Why weren’t two Traffic Impact Analysis done at the same time. One project effects the other one, and definately effects the neighborhoods. Let’s not forget this excess traffic will be bleeding over to Manassas Dr. in Manassas Park, and Liberia Ave in the City of Manassas.
That one has been on the books for a long time. What is its official name, Chris?
There needs to be a traffic light down there now, where all the Lomond drives converge.
Where will it hook up in Fairfax? Will it mostly go through Barrett field?
Something is going thru Barrett field and this explains some traffic meters last year. ( the ones you drive over) I would suppose that it would connect with Compton road? ( the cut over to Fairfax)
Moon & Red Dawn,
The name of the project is Tri-County Parkway/Route 28 Bypass. I’m not sure where it will link up in Fairfax Co. The extension will begin from Ben Lomond Farm, continue through WestGate and Loch Lomond behind the houses. I wonder how Fairfax County feels about this proposed project. The county actually has several plans to link some big roads with Fairfax, Loudoun and Stafford Counties.
I have another busy day ahead of me. I will be back later this evening with more information on the road projects. I’m going to have to park on Lomond and walk to read the Public Hearing sign posted at Flat Branch. I’m not sure if it’s the BoS or Planning Commission that will be holding the public hearing.
I’m very concerned with how Godwin is going to intersect Lomond Dr. Honestly, can you imagine a light on the hill at Flat Branch? Or worse yet a flyover bridge carrying the Godwin Dr traffic?
Both of the school and road projects will have a major impact on our traffic. I don’t know how it could much worse. I find the timing of the projects’ public hearings questionable. How convinient these public hearings are at a time when EVERYONE’s focus is on the budget. I’m beginning to think they didn’t think anyone would notice.
I also heard from a neighbor that one elected official said “The school’s a done deal”. Obviously, they don’t pay much attention to local politics. Many folks from WG and Sudley have rallied together before, and are more than willing to do it again. These projects will have a dramatic impact on our quality of life in WG/Sudley/Loch Lomond(with the road project). We elected these people to act in the best interest of our county. Those that don’t act in our best interest should NOT be reelected when 2011 comes around. A yes vote on this school project is a vote right out of office.