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UPDATE:  4/10/10 The 4 remaining miners at Montcoal have been found dead.

 

One has to ask, why doesn’t MSHA (Federal Mine Safety and Health Agency) do more to insist on safer mines? It makes no sense that the feds govern mine safety and the state can also. Yet a company has over 600 violations from one mine? How about the feds going in, shutting down the mines when they have glaring violations like ventilation systems not working and forcing the mines to pay the miners for time spent off the job until the mine is in compliance?

A current theme of mine is “this is 2010.” Coal mining has been unsafe since men first went into the bowels of the earth. Companies have gotten rich off the backs of miners. Part of our language comes from the dangers of mining (Canary in a coal mine). There are so many songs and films about the dangers of mining. Still we  have companies that have zero regard for the ultimate safety of their workers.

Should we insist that the federal government protect miners by holding the companies’ respective feet to the fire about violations? Should mining safety be turned over to the state? Probably those who would battle any attempt to  reform coal mining standards enforcement  would be the coal miners and their families. They are a hard, tenacious group held together by the danger of the job. The key word here is J-O-B. A coal mine brings jobs to an undeveloped, economically depressed area. Mining is hard dangerous work but it pays well, especially when the unions are involved. Where are the unions during all this talk of violations?

Mining is good money if you live to spend it. Massey Energy and its CEO Don Blankenship might have a great deal to answer for once the dust has settled, the dead buried, and the lost found. We simply cannot have mining accidents like this in 2010. These miners aren’t our canaries!

54 Thoughts to “Mine Safety Issues”

  1. Wolverine

    I might be misremembering here, but I seem to recall something about this mine being non-union.

  2. I don’t know. I will see what I can find out. I don’t know how effect unions are in ensuring safety violations don’t happen or are quickly corrected. In my mind, they should be playing the role of strong watch dog.

    By the way, thanks for the tip on this story. I think the main idea is important–safety violations that are being ignored. We can look at the D did R did later, after the crisis is over.

  3. Starryflights

    The federal government should be responsible for ensuring the safety of miners. Its failure to do so has tragic consequences.

  4. Second-Alamo

    About inspections of any industry in general. It is the inspector’s job to site noncompliances, and so I often wonder if the inspector feels compelled to ‘find’ violations to rationalize his existence. No violations could mean either the company truly has none, or the inspector isn’t doing his job. On the other hand many violations could be due to the inspector’s push for recognition. Most small violations will go unchallenged just as you wouldn’t spend the effort to fight a $5 parking ticket. It is the major violations that all should be concerned with, and which should be further investigated rather than being concerned with the number of minor violations.

  5. George S. Harris

    I grew up in northeastern Oklahoma where they mined lead and zinc. It seems to me that this mining was much safer but many miners developed silicosis similar to that experienced by coal miners. I don’t recall any major cave-ins, but major damage occured after the mines were closed. Mine shafts filled with water that was highly contaminated with lead and zinc. The runoff has made that area of Oklahoma one of the superfund sites. Subsidence has caused towns like Picher, OK to be pretty much abandoned. I drove through the area a few years ago and the towns were like ghost towns in many ways. Few young people stay there and the towns are slowly dying. Two of the best things to come out of the area were Mickey Mantle and Steve Owens the 1969 Heisman Trophy winner. And of course, me.

  6. PWC Taxpayer

    A mine inspector has got to be once of the worst jobs anywhere. You understand your responsibility to the mine, the miners and the community. Close a mine for any reason – to include safety violations and the miners and their extended families will be all over you for the lack of work, the company for the expenses and the threats to close the mine as no longer profitable given the high infrastructure costs, and then some member of Congress comes down on you through the agency for exceeding your authority or for the economic impact. Your judgement will be evlauated and your decisions questions by another inspector. And then the auditors comes in to see who is paying you under the table – the union, another company, some oil interest, some environmental interest. Happens every day- and the answer is — that coal is cheap and deep. It needs to remain cheap cause 50 percent of our electricity comes from coal and its the nature of the business that its dangerous – after 150 years of digging. Double your electric bill, or have brown-out days or pay taxes to have the government build nuclear that would double your electric bill and watch those jobs throughout the economy disappear.

    This is not a simple problem with a simple – hey, do better inspections – answer.

  7. Never said it was a simple answer but throwing out the question certainly brought much response and some more indepth things to look at.

    So what is the answer? Do we just keep sending human canaries down there? How can we improve company responsibility without creating the undesirable outcomes described by pwctp?

  8. Does anyone know if the Massey mine in Montcoal is union?

  9. marinm

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/90843-afl-cio-rips-company-that-owns-site-of-deadly-mine-blast

    Would give the impression that no union workers are authorized to work at that mine or even with the company.

    Coal mining is dangerous. An investigation that’ll take years will happen to see if the company did anything wrong. But, I do see it as somewhat wrong to focus on union v. non-union or the number of safety issues at the mine while there are men or remains still in the mine.

  10. Marin, it seems like a good time to focus on mining safety. Union vs non union is really irrelevant and just part of an earlier discussion, perhaps from the other thread. The only reason I think it might possibly be relevant is because of the union’s interest in protecting its members. How big of a role does a union play in determining inspections and compliance with inspections.

    If these questions are not asked when something tragic happens, often we forget, and go back to business as usual. No change takes place if change is needed. Unfortunately, that is just human nature.

  11. PWC Taxpayer

    @Moon-howler

    I don’t disagree Moon Hey that felt kinda good! But remember, regardless of the public stance, the union has the same conflicts as noted above for an inspector

  12. marinm

    Agreed. A union might advocate for ‘safer worker conditions’ but not if it’ll mean the mine has to close or that the number of jobs is impacted in a negative way. It’s a fine line.

    You don’t see a Crab Fisherman’s Local 1701 on The Deadliest Catch for a reason.. A union means another mouth to feed and more weight to pull. And, if the union calls for a strike – well Dutch Harbor or in this case West Virginia has plenty of out of work men that will take that job in a heartbeat if it means 3 square and a roof.

  13. hello

    Starryflights :The federal government should be responsible for ensuring the safety of miners. Its failure to do so has tragic consequences.

    Great point Starry… I wonder if Obama is going to be blamed for this tragedy the same way Bush was for the last coal mine disaster.

  14. @PWC Taxpayer

    That’s twice in 2 days. Should we be worried?

  15. Hello, I don’t recall Bush being blamed for Sago or Utah. Why would he be blamed?

    Marin, don’t you think it is up to the workers to decide if they want the Union to come in or not? That isn’t something I feel we should determine for someone else.

  16. marinm

    @Moon-howler

    Yes. The point I made in #12 was that with unemployment so high what would the union get those employees? When so many are unemployed or underemployed the employer is in the drivers seat. A strike isn’t very effective when you have 2-3 rows deep worth of people willing to do that job if you ain’t.

  17. hello

    Moon-howler :Hello, I don’t recall Bush being blamed for Sago or Utah. Why would he be blamed?
    Marin, don’t you think it is up to the workers to decide if they want the Union to come in or not? That isn’t something I feel we should determine for someone else.

    Yeah, Bush was blamed all of the time for any and all coal mining disasters. You mentioned the Sago disaster, here is just one example of the blame game, an article titles “How Bush Failed the Sago 13”. http://mydd.com/2006/1/3/how-bush-failed-the-sago-13

  18. Hedrick

    The measures suggested in this item would shut down most mining in the U.S.–much less in countries with fewer concerns about worker safety. I was born and reared in Raliegh County, admittedly many years ago now. My father was a miner as a young man and many friends and relatives are or have been dependent on the mines for a livelihood. I fear that those, both in and out of government circles, who are most strident in demanding safety measures for mines have little understanding of the realities of the industry and of the culture which supports it. Although it has been decades since young people of the area expected as a matter of course to go into the mines, the industry still dominates the culture and those who live on its profits and participate in its structure do, of course, want mines to be as safe as possible, but not to the point that the industry would be reduced to an unprofitable point. Completely safe mining is an oxymoron. I would be interested to know the average number of violations of mines in the area before deciding what is excessive. Surely there is some solution better than closing down the mines. The current energy situation and the unemployment problem do not allow for such decimation of the industry. Let’s hold our fire for more information before we decide that the company is evil. It has to stay profitable if it is to allow people to work and support families.

  19. this disaster is bush’s legacy. his evisceration of OSHA and MSHA has yielded this tragedy. the fines are not punishment, just a cost of doing business for the mine owners, and good conservative model for transferring risk to the miners.

    Massey mines and their subsidiaries are notorious union busters. this was a non-union mine.

    this Bush policy of implementing his warped vision of the “Free Market” was all about reducing regulations and penalties. then he cut the budgets of the safety Feds so their work load was overwhelming.

    i suspect that miners are a lot like fire fighters. when we lost Kyle Wilson three years ago (April 16th is the same day/morning the VT shootings took place) we went balls to the wall to fix the problems. we’ve accomplished in PW a national model about line of duty FF deaths.

    the incidence of union mine disasters is much less, but if a worker in a unionized mine has a safety issue he/she can take it to the union. Massey miners are just fired.

    this is a terrible price to pay, but one both the miners, who have no other employment options, and the companies who fight safety violation fines (or simply don’t pay the fines) and see the violations as a cost of doing business are locked into.

    the good news is that Obama Labor secretary Solis is going to fix this after eight years of worker safety neglect. the new MSHA admin is Joe Main http://www.msha.gov/asinfo.htm a highly regarded expert and former UMWA safety advocate.

    a huge change from Bush’s appointees who were all coal mine executives. (dig, baby dig)

    their agenda was production

    b

    b

  20. Unions do things other than organize strikes, Marin. It is still up to the employees to decide if they want the union in there.

    The purpose in asking about unions was as it relates to mine safety. A friend of mine from near that area just told me that mine safety was an oxymoron. There is no such thing. A mine by definition is horribly dangerous.

    Hello, it looks like Bruce will answer. I don’t feel either president is to blame. That’s just me though. I just can’t liv emy life like that. It makes me too unhappy.

  21. Moon,

    i’m happy now that the winds have changed, and these miners have got a better shot a living.

    the problem with this disaster is that there are a lot of mines, and the lack of enforcement for 8 years really built up the back log of violations.

    there’s a lot to undo from the Bush years. i’m happy we won!

    b

  22. I sure hope that the mining codes are enforced and that both the feds and the unions will insist on high standards. I would not be opposed to places being shut down if they don’t take care of safety issues, while paying the workers. That would hurry things along.

  23. marinm

    True. But, then you must admit that it’s upto an employee to decide if it’s too unsafe to work at a company mine or if it’s within his risk threshold.

    Now, I will say that my hands are unclean on this as I am steadfast against unions, I believe that they are against the public interest when speaking of governmental or public safety unions. So, feel free to take any of the above with a grain of salt.

    Now, what if this was just a terrible accident or an accident caused by a worker? Would the AFL-CIO boss come in and say ‘I appologize for my comments’ or will he keep pushing to unionize those workers who may not want to be unionized or see value in it? Who knows? A piece of equipment could’ve failed at just the wrong time… but of course it’s easier to blame corporate greed than to simply discover what went wrong and try to learn from it.

    Maybe I’m a hardass but if I was the owner of the mine and people all across this country started breathing down my neck saying that it was greed and profit that did this (without knowing if it was even a factor) I’d prove a point by firing every employee and closing the mine down.

    I’d do the same if I ever heard the mention of union at a business I owned. At the first mention of it I’d terminate all employees and start anew or go elsewhere.

    I respect that an employee has the right to unionize and I respect the right of a business owner to cease operations if he has to deal with a union.

  24. Bruce, I had forgotten that Kyle Wilson died the same day as the VT killings. Perfect example of what happens if we don’t strike when things are fresh on our minds. Many people didn’t even know about Kyle Wilson because of VT.

    While we are a national model, as I understand it, the fire and rescue services have still not been funded the way they were promised almost 3 years ago. Am I right about that?

  25. marinm,

    Massey is a bad company. this is the way it works is…
    MSHA comes in and inspects a mine
    if violations are noted the company is given a reasonable amount of time to either fix or plan to fix the violation (based on severity of violation)
    if the company is Massey they do nothing and the inspector comes back
    then Massey is fined
    Massey does nothing
    fines increase
    violations pile up
    people die
    Massey continues production.

    http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/06/massey-deadly-mine/

    your contention that this might have been caused by a worker is correct. workers drop stuff all the time. the problem in WV is when something is dropped in an atmosphere of highly explosive methane (levels which Massey was fined for not re-mediating) then there’s an explosion. so is the worker at fault?

    http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/7/massey_energy_mine_cited_for_1

    and the Masey CEO…
    An October 19, 2005, company memo obtained in Aracoma litigation indicates that before the Aracoma fire, all of the company’s deep mine superintendents — including Upper Big Branch — were put on notice by Massey CEO Don Blankenship that coal production trumped any other concerns.

    http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/south/view/20100407massey_energy_has_record_of_mine_violations/

    Moon,

    staffing is a critical issue for us and this year with the BOCS in dire $$$ straits, the FD will be allowed to hire fire fighters using the Fire Levy (all PW citizens pay and our local has complained for years about the improper use/control of the money by the volunteers – see Gainesville Volunteers disbanded for misfeasance and malfeasance)

    we have an excellent relationship with our chief (Kevin McGee) and our union works collaboratively with him and senior staff in the budget process. this is our coping mechanism for working in a “Right to Not Work” state. we’ve learned to communicate and compromise.

    we have about 96% of our fire fighters in our union. and it’s voluntary.

    and next year we will have collective bargaining across the country for all union fire fighters. this bill will pass and be signed by Obama, but we’re waiting for the Employee Free Choice legislation to go first.

    http://www.iaff.org/politics/legislative/Bargain.htm

    b

  26. Emma

    @bruce roemmelt What actions have the Obama administration been taking to improve mine safety over the last 14 months of Democratic majority? I’ve searched a bit today and could not find any discussion of the topic before this latest tragedy. What a shame so many had to die before Obama would see this as an urgent crisis to undo after years of Bush-era neglect.

  27. Marin, how would you close it down if you were making money off of it?

    As for the workers finding something else to do…many people who are working in the mines don’t have the mobility that someone like you does. That just isn’t how it works.

    Tonight on Faux News, Shepherd Smith, who is one I do feel is fair and balanced, devoted much of his show to the people of Montcoal. The reporter out in the field had a hard time getting people to talk to him. Why? Fear. Fear of job loss. One rather hard looking woman did interview with him. She simply didn’t care. She must not have been related to anyone involved with the mine.

  28. Wolverine

    In searching through the web for specific information on the dangers of methane gas in coal mines, I found some rather interesting items. As a layperson I hope I have gotten this straight; but here goes anyway. First off, much of the methane danger seems to be found in seams of the mine which are no longer being worked and have been closed off. They are sealed off from the working part of the mine. However, the technology for sealing these unused shafts is not as sure as the industry would like it to be. Sometimes even the best sealing efforts have hidden flaws. Secondly, the methane in the closed shafts for some scientific reason (which somebody else is going to have to explain) seems to become more volatile because it escapes more easily from the rock surface than does methane in open areas with better ventilation. Thus, leaks into the working areas create a danger if there is even a slight malfunction in the main ventilation systems. In short, it looks to me like methane explosions are a constant danger and something against which the industry cannot seem yet to guarantee total safety. Also, as I understand it, methane has no odor, so special detection devices have to be installed to signal its presence in dangerous quantities. Solving this methane problem looks to me like an ongoing project for some really smart mining and safety engineers.

    I ran across another observation which struck me kind of speechless. The miners themselves are a major key to reporting signs of danger. One observer opined that some miners, especially those raking in cash through overtime, are reluctant to be the cause for a mine being shut down because they and their fellow miners would lose a whole bunch of vital income. Ergo, according to this guy, a miner might ignore small signs of danger in favor of keeping the cash flowing. I had to sit back and ponder this one. A miner, knowing the possible fatal result of an explosion underground, is going to roll the dice in favor of some overtime pay? That I find almost impossible to believe. As I recall, the guy who said this was a mining safety type; but I sure would like to hear something like this straight from the mouth of someone who makes or has made his living in the mines.

  29. Check out Hedrick’s remarks # 18. That comment addresses some of what is blowing you away.

    the very fact that anyone does it for a living sort of escapes me. It is a hard, dangerous job. It hits me like being a window washer on a skyscraper….there ain’t enough money in the universe to compel me…..

  30. Emma

    Well, it’s either mining or a shoe factory for many of these WV folks. Or starvation.

    Has anyone ever visited a coal mine? We toured the Lackawanna coal mine a few years ago–fascinating stuff.

  31. emma,

    the reason you couldn’t find anything is probably due to your search words. in stead of mine safety and Obama is a Kenyan, you should have searched on US Senate Republicans filibuster Obama appointments. the O problems here is cascading bad results.

    I’m glad you think the government is a finely tuned machine, but the reality is that a lot has been done by Obama. his appointment of Joe Main to MSHA head was not approved till the end of October last year (a lot of DOL appointments were held up due to O appointing a union guy to be on the NLRB and a deal to end the filibusterer with the R’s fell through so recess appointments were made). so lets say Joe got on board in 11/09. first thing to do is look at the shambles he’s inherited and figure out what to do. Congress passed some tough mining laws due to the multitude of fires/collapses etc under Lipuinski’s reign. he however tried to delay the changes as much as possible.

    so the time Joe’s had to reverse 8 years of Bush sucking up to the corporate coal types is about 3 months. he immediately launched a black lung initiative and started to change policy on frequency of inspections and needed to set real department goals that actually focused on miner safety.

    the problem as i see it is the tremendous backlog of challenges the coal companies have made to serious violations. Obama was granted 1 additional judge to help with the appeals process and requested were 26!

    so i guess you can say this is O’s fault for sure. and of course those careless miners who have the temerity to cause static electricity to set off horrendous explosions in an un-vented mine shaft with a IDHL level of methane.

    b

  32. Emma

    @bruce roemmelt “the reason you couldn’t find anything is probably due to your search words. in stead of mine safety and Obama is a Kenyan…”

    What the hell are you talking about?

  33. marinm

    @Moon-howler

    “Marin, how would you close it down if you were making money off of it?”

    In much the same way that any employee will leave one job for another. If I can go somewhere else and make more money, have better benefits, a better working environment, what have you I have the ability to move. Why can’t an employer have that same ability? You can actually see the same has happened in CA where some companies are being lured away from CA and into NV because of lower taxes and regulations.

    As an employer why would I want a union? What is the benefit to me? None.

    As a taxpayer why would I want a public safety union (like the IAFF)? What is the benefit to me? None.

    As a consumer they only drive up costs on consumables. As a taxpayer my taxes go up. There is no up-side.

    If a union has a right to organize an employer should have every right to terminate all unionized employees and hire new ones. Just looking to make sure the playing field is equal.

  34. marinm,

    i might be missing something here, but what costs are u associating with the the PWC fire fighters union? how do the fire fighters drive up costs on your consumables? how are your taxes increased by the union?

    perhaps you should consider this group…. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111256528714

    just asking.

    b

  35. marinm

    Bruce,

    Will your union fight to decrease the fire levy? Will it fight to decrease pay and benefits for members to reduce the tax burden on the citizens? Will it not pack the BOCS meetings with off-duty personnel in uniform asking for more money?

    No.

    Every penny you recieve from a benefit or pay is provided by us – the taxpayer. I’m ok for paying for a fire or rescue service that I may never use (because there is a chance that i might need it one day [this is a form of insurance for me, like medical insurance – I pay hoping never to use it but if I need it I’m glad I paid my premiums]. That doesn’t mean that I want or need to have every house equipped with ALS or that every Asst. Chief needs an Escalade or that a truck can’t go 20-25 years before being replaced.

    I don’t see local fire departments as ‘socialist’. I see them no different than I do AIG, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Kaiser, or USAA. They’re simply a service that I pay for on the hope of never needing it but knowing its there if I do.

    In a perfect world our Fire/Rescue services would be all volunteer.

  36. Second-Alamo

    Perhaps we should treat mining as if it were the military. It is understood that people may lose their lives in the military as part of the risk. When people understand and accept the risk, then when people do lose their lives it isn’t usually considered the ‘fault’ of the military. Only in extreme cases of lack of judgement does the military come under question. So it is with mining. Understand the risks, reduce them within reason, but also understand that it is impossible to totally prevent them. Unless of course we stop mining all together. Presently not an option.

  37. Pat.Herve

    Less regulation – isn’t that what industry wants? – wasn’t that one of McCain’s talking points?

    Unions – I am not sure of Mining, but in many industries, the unions are responsible to train their members – there are some polls out there that show that a unionized work force is more trained and more productive.

    Yes, the need for unions may be less necessary, because many companies now offer health benefits and pension (401k) benefits in order to prevent the employees from unionizing. If the unions go away (or are not in your industry), look out for your benefits. In a union mine, the employee can talk about problems without the fear of being fired for no cause – not so in a non union mine.

    What is most distressing is when the violations are for things like –
    removing ventilation controls
    inadequate maps of escape routes
    under supplied rescue chambers
    following an approved ventilation plan
    controlling combustible materials
    designating escape routes

    it makes you think that this is a mine in China, not in the US.

    I am not for over-regulation, but would you pay a little more $$ for the mines to be safer, I would, but because of our ‘free-market’ approach, the company feels a need to squeeze out every penny so that it makes wall streets numbers.

  38. Emma

    @Second-Alamo
    You could say that about almost any hazardous industrial process. There are very many other jobs out there that involve the risk of entering confined spaces and IDLH atmospheres. I’d hate to go back to the every-man -out-for-himself days of the Hoover Dam construction, but I also agree that unions have way too much political sway now.

    For a fascinating look at worker conditions during that era, go to: http://www.usbr.gov/lc/hooverdam/History/storymain.html

    The Hoover Dam is a fascinating place to visit, and full of many often tragic stories.

  39. Agreed Emma re Hoover Dam. Is that new road open out there yet? Last time I was out that way it was not and traffic across the dam was backed up for miles. There is also an American Experience hour about the Hoover Dam.

    You can watch it online and it is an hour long show or thereabouts.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/hoover/

    Emma, thanks for your link.

  40. Emma

    Did you know that both father and son died at the Hoover dam, about 30 years apart, both during surveying activities before and after construction? Weird karma.

  41. Marin, Its ok to be eccentric but but most of us don’t want to have to handle fires without equipment and professional or trained firefighters. Part of living in the modern world is having things taken care of in a systematic way by public funds that benefit us all. If it offends you, then you need to not live in the United States because that is what most of us want and have come to expect. Libraries, schools, traffic lights, police, etc.

    You appear to be part of a ME generation that I simply don’t understand. I can’t take the attitude that if it doesn’t personally benefit me then I shouldn’t have to pay for it. The bottom line is, there are certain things one comes to expect in our society. I don’t use the library very often but I sure support having a decent one.

    I don’t think your attitute is as libertarian as I just think it is self centered, Marin. Do you not feel any responsibility beyond your own door step?

  42. Emma, if I knew it, I don’t remember that I knew it. How weird.

    There is also an hour loop that shows on the Vegas TV that is very intererting.

    Hoover Dam even looks neat from the air. Much controversy over naming that dam also.

  43. PWC Taxpayer

    @Moon-howler

    Wow, Moon, your in a mood. Defining and taking pot shots at Marinm this early.

    Fact is that Marinm makes a lot of sense. The only reason fire and rescue are public utilities/entities is because we learned that the fire from one non-fire insured house can quickly spread to those that are.

    The reason for public employee unions is that there are idiot managers (who cannot generally as public employees be sued for being stupid). The problem with public employee unions is that there is no controll over their demands for more and their group impact on politicians. There is no risk of corporate failure because it is all about the Government’s ability to tax. This conflict is why the Founders did not give the vote to residents of the District — don’t think they understood suburbs. And speaking of taxing – my favorite Bolshevik – did you see that for nearly half of U.S. households taxes are simply somebody else’s problem. About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability. That’s according to projections by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research organization. Which group are you in?

  44. No PWCTP, I wasn’t taking a pot shot. That was a direct aim at calling something as I see it. Everything he says indicates he wants to live in a society where everything is responsible for themselves and owes nothing, morally or legally to anyone else. I base that on his posts here. My intent was not to insult him but to address what he is coming across as.

    Marin makes some good points on occassion. I also think he has very unrealistic expections and expectations that aren’t the America we live in. Why do you find fault with me telling some my opinion of their ideas. Was I not civil? Or am I expected to provide a blog for others to say whatever they want and I am to remain silent?

    Now we had discussed Marin, let me also say that Marin is NEVER impolite. Cut the name calling. 2nd warning.

    This thread is about mining safety.

    E.J. Dionne op-ed Washignton Post:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/07/AR2010040703686.html?nav=hcmoduletmv

  45. marinm

    It might’ve been direct aim but it was a whale of a miss. 🙂

    See. I never said that we didn’t need fire services. I didn’t say that this was a black and white issue rather a shades of grey one. It’s not the fire/rescue services I have issue with it’s to the extent of those services. Let’s use a military example (so that those on the left may understand where I’m coming from on this). We all agree that we need a military and that it has to be funded by the public treasury. Now, the extent to which we fund the military then becomes a question. Do we give them anything and everything they want? Do we field F-22s and F-35s and ballistic missile shields? Or, do we do a risk assessment and a cost benefit analysis and say.. You know, we don’t really need the F22s, we can get by with half of the F35s we thought we needed and screw the Europeans they can build their own shield.

    Same thing with local fire services. I’ll quote myself (as it apears I was either misunderstood or misquoted), “I don’t see local fire departments as ’socialist’. I see them no different than I do AIG, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Kaiser, or USAA. They’re simply a service that I pay for on the hope of never needing it but knowing its there if I do.”

    I acknowledge that we *need* fire/rescue services. My qualm is to the extent of those services. Do we need to have every Chief and Asst. Chief driving Escalades? No. Do we need to have Fire Trucks replaced every 5 years? No. Do we need to pay for a college education for every uniformed paid firefighter? No.

    Government is about prioritizing. It’s about figuring out where money really has to be spent and where we can withhold spending – what are the priorities of the community. Fire Services may be one of them but I disagree to the extent that Bruce feels a need to collectively bargain (to get what he wants at the expense of each taxpayer in the county).

    PWCT got it right. Fire services being governmentalized (it used to be a private for-profit service) was about protecting property (and life) from being destroyed by a non-insured person. I get that. I buy into the idea that we need to have it. I don’t buy into the idea that they are some sacred cow that can’t be cut, can’t be reduced, or that must see budget increases every year.

    I think MH’s response was civil. Just not even close to what I had argued. 🙂

    Honestly, I thought I’d get flamed for comparing Fire Services to AIG. I guess I could’ve saild Halburton but the analogy doesn’t really fit. It’s a better analogy to say that Fire/Rescue is more like auto insurance – you pay premiums, don’t want to use it but glad that your uptodate if you have to.

    Going back to the ME comment though. It’s not about ME in as much as a comment like, “The bottom line is, there are certain things one comes to expect in our society. I don’t use the library very often but I sure support having a decent one.” speaks very much to a ‘ME’ arguement. Because that line item is important to you and you believe that it’s a function of a civilized society to offer that service that we are somehow uncivilized if we don’t or don’t offer it to the extent that someone else offers it.

    I think that we can be civilized and offer good, better, best, and rock bottom services in the priority that we ordain as taxpayers. However, unions don’t provide local government with that flexibility.

  46. marinm,

    I’m just confused about your quote “However, unions don’t provide local government with that flexibility.” speaking to PWC issues what kind of relationship do you feel my Local (Prince William Professional Fire Fighters) has with the BOCS that precludes flexibility? we don’t have a contract (yet) and we don’t have a vote on the BOCS. we are politically active – duh, just as politically active as the volunteers were.

    this argument is hampered by your breathless charge that our chiefs run around in Escalades. not so. (Perhaps some of the volunteers do, but I’ll let them defend that) you paint us all with the same brush and hope that some of the “stuff” on the brush sticks to the surface.

    in the same vein if it were up to our local, fire trucks would be replaced according to a national standard. do you really think fire trucks are replaced every 5 years? and what evidence do you have that every paid fire fighter has his/her college education paid for. our college reimbursement policies are the same benefit that every county employee has (to the best of my knowledge). statements like that poison the discussion.

    there is a smell of “death panels” and “HCR is socialized medicine” in your characterizations.

    i got home to late last night to comment on the AIG thing. comparing those that make obscene profits to governmental agencies is just wrong. (as well as including Kaiser with all the other health care “evil doers”.

    out the door now, as my meager disability retirement still requires me to work… should have opted for the too big to fail job. NOT!

    b

  47. Thank you for clarifying, marin. I will let you and Bruce handle the union stuff for now. I am not going where angels fear to tread. I am not sure what you mean about libraries and a civilized society. How can a society that doesn’t make literacy anything but a priority be considered ‘civilized.’ All of those towns that cropped up during westward expansion prided themselves on things like getting a teacher in the community and starting off a library, even if it was small. These are marks that our society values as part of its culture.

    If you want businesses to come to your town to take some of the burden off of the homeowner’s tax responsibility, then you have to have these niceties that a community is judged by. Good schools, parks and libraries attract good businesses.

  48. Wolverine

    Having long ago been a member of the UAW (obliged to be one because of the closed-shop angle), I certainly have mixed feelings about unions, particularly because of the political aspect. However, I must say that, having looked at what our miners endured in the old days of the “robber barons”, the UMWA was an absolute necessity and still is. This may sound a bit apostate for a dyed-in-the-wool conservative; but, if I had to make up a list of historical figures which I admired for various reasons, that list would have to include George Meany and Walter Reuther, particularly for their intense efforts to thwart Marxist control of their own unions and international union organizations, and the late UMWA leader John L. Lewis because that guy was one hell of a fighter for the rights and welfare of the mine workers and their families. As my very conservative union-member father once told me: “Son, Walter Reuther played a big part in you getting a college degree.”

  49. marin,

    clarification on PWC education policy…

    each agency/department gets to budget for college education funds for employees
    each employee CAN get up to $5000/year, but…
    if a dept (ex. FD with 500 employees) budgets say $20k for education and 20 people apply then the money is split among them, thus $1000 each

    so with 500 employees @ $5000 each annually that would be a pretty hefty chunk ($2.5 million)

    the bottom line is that we are in a competitive market for fire fighters. retention is important as it can cost upwards of $75 k to get a new fire fighters hired, training, certified, equipped and on the job. remember we compete with FX and all those inside the beltway departments for new people.

    b

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