Arizona Governor Jan Brewer signed a controversial law into effect today which requires police officers to inquire into a person’s immigration status.
According to MSNBC:
The legislation, sent to the Republican governor by the GOP-led Legislature, makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally. It also requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants, allows lawsuits against government agencies that hinder enforcement of immigration laws, and make it illegal to hire illegal immigrants for day labor or knowingly transport them
.
President Obama has taken strong issue with the law which is the toughest immigration law in the United States.
How does this law seem to differ from the Resolution signed right here in Prince William County?
Is this the job for local police?
Who can bring these lawsuits? I don’t want tax dollars wasted on nuisance suits and Arizona citizens probably don’t either. We all know some crackpot who thinks they know local ordinances better than the body who wrote them, the attorneys who blessed them, and the officers who enforce them. All you have to do is read the darkside any day of the week and you get a good idea of the yahoos out there that will be busy trying to sue the government and waste tax dollars. Ah, Arizona, you have my condolences.
I believe this to be the SB http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf that was signed.
Some interesting facets to it. I’d like to see how it plays out.
The loophole that I see of course (which I support because of my pro-gun perspective) is that a citizen is not required to carry ID anytime he’s not driving a car. So, if a officer has RAS to suspect someone is an alien that person could do the absolute minimum and provide a name to the officer. If asked for ID the person could tell the officer to pound sand and ask if he’s free to go. After a reasonable amount of time if the officer doesn’t have probable cause to arrest based on the name they have to cut you loose.
So, I think the legislation is do-able from a legal perspective but man does it put a lot of risk on the beat cop and is a very thin line.
For the other parts I need to research them. While emotionally I may feel skidish about this I acknowledge that it’s Arizona’s choice to make. Let’s just hope it works out as intended and not that it morphs into something else.
Marin, do you think this law can be implemented without racial profiling?
It sounds like all Arizonians need to carry an ID at all times. Will blonde hair/blue eyed people who are stopped be required to meet the same standards?
You also sound like you believe all law enforcement is ….on the up and up? Ever been to AZ? Where is Sheriff Joe these days?
LMAO.. You think *I* believe all law enforcement is on the up and up?
I’m probably one of the few people that want to get rid of the Federal Air Marshall program. With 4 arrests per year at a cost of $200 million per arrest. That entire agency needs to go.
I am also a big advocate for Citizens Review Boards to have the citizens monitor county police departments. Sheriffs don’t need them because they are directly hired by the citizens via election.
To your point, thats the question – an officer will need to testify in court as to how he had RAS to believe that the accussed was about to commit a crime, had committed one or is an illegal (a crime itself). So, going into court and saying he was two shades or so brown won’t work. He’ll need something. It might be that he was wearing sunglasses at night or that he had a lingering look at a storefront…something that can establish the RAS bar. So, the battle (from both sides of the debate) will need to focus on that.
Arizona is not a stop & ID state – just like Virginia. When I was asked by a police officer to show him my ID because I was armed at a 7-11 I told him to pound sand. I am not required to stop and show my ID to a police officer unless he has cause to demand it. In my case, simply carrying a firearm is not sufficient for him to ‘stop’ me.
You’ll see the same in Arizona. Officers will engage a person in a conversation and attempt to have them ‘comply’ by either intimidation, trickery, or just plain asking (most people automatically do anything a cop tells them to do not realizing that’s probably the most stupid thing any person could ever do). So, my advice is – know the law and know your own rights. If your an American citizen, tell that cop to shove it where the sun don’t shine and just walk away.
Now, if your a card carrying resident alien. Federal law requires you to have your alien card on you. (Of note, an alien card can be used to buy a firearm in Virginia – thats how my dad got his- that, his VA DL and a utility bill). This state law simply requires that you follow the federal law and (this part is new) that a local LEO could demand it from you. Interesting to see how that works out. Honestly, most aliens will probably comply. Illegals of course can not.
What RAS means to one cop may be different from another as well as what a jury may believe.
Now, some will argue I’m anti-cop. I’m not. But, if I delegate powers to them to maintain civil order than I must also be able, willing and ready to exert rights and revoke those powers if they commit crimes or abuse those powers.
I’m a big proponent of sites like http://www.flexyourrights.org/
@Moon-howler
What about a blonde/blue eyed person that’s merely a passenger in the car?
And what do you think prompted the question, Ms. Chris. LOL
Actually, they should have gotten busted on that one. Maybe there should be a repeat of the incident?
@Moon-howler
They sure should’ve been busted on that one. I had too much going on at the time to follow up. Rest assured a repeat incident, would NOT be ignored. PR’s shining city on the hill would definately hear about a repeat.
So, what incident? Sounds interesting…
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/06pdf/06-8120.pdf. Pretty rare that all 9 agree on something. It’s an interesting read. Or, goto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendlin_v._California for the cliff notes version.
There was NOTHING expired, no outstanding warrants, and no laws were broken. The driver had their license, and the passenger couldn’t find her’s at first, because she didn’t have it. Then a cop so kindly shined the light all over in my purse so I could find it. I told them I didn’t think I had it on me, and they wanted to know why not. I guess in the CoM they think all persons in a vehicle should have ID on them. There’s NO law that says I’m required to carry ID on my person while being a passenger, and again NO laws were being broken. I did have my credit card Virginia birth certificate though. It’s got my blood boiling thinking about that nonsense.
You waived your 4th Amendment protections by allowing his request. He didn’t do anything wrong or illegal – you waived your rights.
You didn’t even have to roll down your windows.
By letting him look thru the window into your purse – he was buying time to find something to charge you with. That he couldn’t is why he eventually had to let you go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipqQVxGngJU
Anything you say can and WILL be used AGAINST you in a court of law..
Know your rights, use them. Flex them some. You are a citizen of this great country – you are NOT a subject.
I guess someone is lucky they didn’t go to jail?
It’s a sad day in our country when a person cannot be outside without government issued identification. Arizona is now a police state. I hope this doesn’t become the day that freedom in our great nation died.
Or we could look at it another way….those of us living in Prince William County could be thanking out lucky stars that F.A.I.R. moved west.
I am not sure what Arizona is hoping to accomplish. If they are responding to the violence with the drug wars, I believe they have grabbed onto the wrong tool, since it sounds very much like the one that was tried here in PWC.
There is a big difference in having undocumented workers and having drug runnings shooting up your border cities and doing drug cartel type things in cities like Phoenix.
Arizona is basically the type of mess that PWC was 3-4 years ago. I applaud their reaction. I applaud someone trying to protect their citizens’ rights.
If the Democrats push for Amnesty, I think we could see a ploitical bloodbath in 2010 unlike what we’ve seen in who knows how long. “Free health care for the poor” plus “let millions more poor in” equals lots of apolitical Americans taking an interest.
“Those who would sacrifice liberty in exchange for security deserve neither.”
Ben Franklin
Everybody stop bitching at US citizens just trying to solve a huge PROBLEM brought about by ILLEGAL immigration, and start helping them find solutions. These folks aren’t your enemy for God sakes! This was happening on a smaller scale in our neck of the woods, and we felt the pain. The people that should be the most outraged are those Naturalized Citizens who spent the time and money to become citizens through the LEGAL process.
I get the feeling that those opposing any action are probably the same people that would go to war if, while standing in a long line at at Kings Dominion, a large group of Hispanics jumped in at the front of the line. Yet those same people act all warm and fuzzy to border crossers who are ‘just trying to earn a living’. Well, they were just trying to get on a ride. Problem is that ‘just trying to earn a living’ often includes crime by those we no nothing about.
If the Dems do get the illegals citizenship, then they also need to reimburse every legally naturalized citizen in this country! You want to talk about lawsuits?
First Arizona, next we in the whole country will soon be required to carry biometric federal id cards everywhere we go, on penalty of arrest and incarceration.
We worked hard for our freedoms in this country and it burns me up to see Americans acquiesing to giving up.
It’s called a drivers license for those who drive. So what’s the big deal? You act as though the government knows nothing about you, and a National ID card would some how tell them where you live or something. The tax forms tell more about you than most of your relatives know. Look, the only people that the government DOESN’t know much about are those entering the country illegally. THAT is the problem!
I recently watched a Youtube clip of Obama at an NCLR rally during the election campaigns. God help us …………… to learn Spanish! What country was Obama born in? Really? And where did he go to school? Really? That explains it!
We need a president who puts American citizens first. After all, that’s his job!
SA, I disagree. Real ID and/or the national health ID card will lead to the registration of all guns in the United States. That is unacceptable.
Marin, your driver’s license hasn’t led to gun registration.
I think Arizona needs to sort out its south of the border problems. Frankly, any other ethnicity other than Hispanics into the conversation at this point is bogus. AZ has 2 problems. Drug cartel violence spilling over and undocumented workers who are looking for work. The 2 different problems have very little in common other than both are coming from Mexico.
AZ needs to distinguish between the problems since both need to be treated very differently. The USA and AZ need to get a handle on that drug running and violence. That isn’t about people just wanting work.
The undocumented worker is small potatoes by comparison.
Hmmmmmm, Marinm, aren’t guns suppose to be registered now? Unless you buy one on the street, or steal one, I’m fairly sure it will be registered.
SA, are you saying that if one buys a gun legally, because of the background check, your gun is registered somewhere?
Those who are outraged at having to carry a single little card on them make a poor argument unless they normally are out and about without even as much as a credit card or some other card. The average person probably carries 15 different types of ‘cards’ on them at any one time in their purse or wallet. Think about all the private and government institutions that have personal information on you like banks, mortgage lenders, credit card companies, insurance companies, phone companies, web sites, hotels, schools, and yet people would be upset that the Federal Government might know something about you? Get real! It’s too late, unless you’re ILLEGAL.
I don’t mind the idea of national ID, I don’t think. No one has given me a compelling reason to mind.
MH,
True. It has not yet led to gun registration but the possibility still exists and politicians on the anti- side are eager to do so.
SA,
I take it your not a citizen of the Commonwealth of Virginia. Guns are not registered in my state. Form 4473 (remember the movie Red Dawn? ..the Cuban Colonel orders his men to goto the local gun store and look for F4473 to track down and kill all civilians with firearms) is kept by the dealer and open for inspection by ATF if they need to trace the firearm.
Now, if I’m stopped for a traffic infraction and the officer decides to seize my firearm (for officer safety) he COULD run the S/N to see if the weapon is stolen. By doing that check the Virginia Fusion Center would then have a match between my name and S/N and the firearm would be effectively registered.
SA, have you ever heard of sterile carry? Some people go out and about there daily lives without any ID on them. Why should I be mandated to carry an ID if I’m not doing anything that requires an ID? In your view of America should we also tattoo a S/N to our arms or heads so that we can be quickly identified by the govt?
I lean conservative so I tend to think that anything the govt does is usually a bad thing. You may lean in another direction and believe govt programs are a good thing. We’ll have to disagree on this.
I’m all for immigration enforcement (of note, I am an anchor baby!) and I’m perfectly OK with keeping illegals OUT of the United States but do so in a lawful manner that does not use our Constitution as toilet paper. Demanding that lawful citizens of this great nation must carry ID at all times and provide it to a law enforcement officer is simply our gate to a totalitarianistic government.
The President was right on this week in one respect: Until the Federal government steps up and gets serious about protecting our borders and our jobs, states and localities will be forced to take action to protect their citizens.
Although I fear that his idea of immigration “reform” will mean a pre-election amnesty.
Dont you think both parties want the Hispanic vote?
I think both parties have failed us in protecting our borders. The party in power is in the best position to pander for votes right now.
I am in favor of protecting borders. I am especially interested in the violence being contained at the border and not spilling over into this country. That should be the chief concern, not someone who wants a job doing lawn care, food prep or apple picking.
Bill Golden over on Bill 4 Dogcatcher has a great post up about immigration: A Short History of Illegal Immigration in the USA. Check him out:
http://bill4dogcatcher.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/a-short-history-of-illegal-immigration-in-the-usa/
For the Dems, amnesty=votes. Thanks for buying your way into power on the backs of honest citizens. Used car salesmen every one.
I don’t know a thing about gun registration technically, but I’ve heard people complain about documentation and assumed some form of government was involved. So if you bring a gun into Virginia from Maryland it is ok to not notify anyone in Virginia?
SA, it’s important to remember that McCain also spoke Spanish during the campaign, bought ads in Spanish, and marketed himself in Spanish. The GOP is also unfit to govern and in fact this whole illegal immigration problem became epidemic during Bush’s reign as he repeatedly sipped tea with Vincente Fox and pretty much plotted the whole thing out.
I agree with you Rick. It’s been a no win situation……….unless you’re illegal.
That is speculation that the Dems get the votes. I have seen both parties jockeying away for the citizen Hispanic vote.
George Bush also spoke spanish and bought ads in Spanish. I don’t begrudge either one of them and the last time I looked, they weren’t Dems. Its the same as going after any other demographic, whether its the MTV crowd or AARP.
I think the Republican Party holds strong on this. Even Lindsay “closet case” Graham, prone to bawling his eyes out over this issue, is off board.
70% of Arizona voters support the bill, so there you go. The more Americans see of illegal immigrants, the more they understand what’s going on here, the more concerned they become. I do not see Amnesty in anyone’s future. Obama will continue to try to exploit the issue and pump the Latino vote, but if this becomes something real, something to be voted on, he’s playing with fire.
Mrs. W came back from a day of high school teaching earlier this week and told me something I found very interesting. She stated that about half of several of her classes consisted of Hispanic kids, a good part of them first generation born-in-America and others not born here but immigrants at an early age. As she watched and listened to those kids, she began to believe that many were turning into “Americans” right before her eyes, based on their use of English idioms so common amongst most American kids, on what they said amongst themselves, and on the way they conducted themselves. If you shut your eyes to skin color and set aside any slight accent, you might believe you were in a high school class before the wave of immigrants hit our town.
As we discussed this between us, we also remarked that the younger Hispanic elementary school kids in our neighborhood were also doing something rather remarkable to us. While we can hear them speak Spanish to their parents, they often converse in English while at play with their Hispanic repeat Hispanic peers. And the accents and the idiomatic expressions are American. Mrs. W remarked further that it looked to her like many of the immigrant Hispanic parents were losing their kids to an Americanized culture faster than she would have ever dreamed possible in the midst of this currently intensive and often divisive national debate over the immigration issue. Had we misjudged something here? Is the old and venerated American “melting pot” still alive after all when many of us had concluded that it was a thing of the past?
This leads to a suggestion. It seems to us that the immigration problems about which many Americans now complain loudly do not come just from a focus on the illegal immigrants in our midst right now and their perceived effects on our quality of life and our economic situation. A larger factor is that we are looking at these current immigrants as just one wave in a large ocean and that our fear stems not just from the present but from a future inundation by wave after wave to a point where our culture and our politico-economic system cannot sustain it.
Suppose, then, that we put aside for the moment the idea of “comprehensive immigration reform” and concentrate on something which is doable right now and which would pretty much have across-the board popular support. Let us put the clamps on that southern border. Build the fence and stop the influx of succeeding waves of illegal immigrants. At the same time, revamp the legal immigration process so that it is fair and faster and also ticketed to actual labor needs in this country rather than continuing to create a situation in which too few jobs are chased by too many people. Compassion is one thing, but we cannot carry compassion to a point of serious damage to the country. We have to get a sensible economic and fiscal handle on the immigration levels.
Doing these things will, of course, take some time. But it also seems that just a visible, honest, and intensive governmental effort to do them might serve to calm tempers from the current levels. It also might be that, when this kind of progress is clearly visible, the jaundiced views toward the current illegal immigrant population might be tempered. In fact, if the population is assured that those feared waves of future unchecked immigration can longer come, there might arise a common and gentler concensus about what to do about those illegals already in the country — perhaps even an acceptance that we will have to absorb this specific group, confident in the assurance that this will be the last time we have to face such an issue. With tempers calmed and with the genuine help of the Hispanic community, we could address the current quality of life and economic problems about which we debate and possibly mitigate some of that bitterness as well. And, if you consider Mrs. W’s observations about the possibly rapid rate of assimilation of the first generation Hispanic kids, we might well arrive at a beneficial concluding point faster than one might expect. If one argues that deferring the “comprehensive” aspect of immigration reform would take too long, consider that we have been sitting on the current agonies for more than a decade with scarcely an iota of progress on any level. Just having a visible plan with genuine promise at the end might do the trick despite any additional waiting the current illegal immigrants might have to endure.
Just some thoughts tossed into the pot on a slow Saturday afternoon.
Wolverine, excellent, reasonable suggestions.
And I am glad you point out that children of immigrants speak English and/or learn it rapidly. We are talking about one generation of immigrants who are either learning more slowly or aren’t learning the language. That won’t last if we do something about the borders and the current laws. People get into this doomsday mentality and just make it worse.
I would also like to point out that illegal immigrants have no protection against unscrupulous employers or others who can blackmail them. They are often victims of abuse and discrimination, yet they have no recourse. The idea that illegal aliens are sitting pretty in this country is a myth.
Excellent points made, Wolverine. I agree with Mrs. W. about the kids also.
What is her opinion of the Dream Act?
Great points Wolverine. Common Sense can be a very persuasive “argument”.
I wish I knew “which” shoes prove you are an undocumented immgrant. I would buy a pair and verify how many times I was asked to prove my status. However, I am just gonna go out on a limb and suggest I would NEVER be asked to prove my status, i don’t think I fit the “profile”.
whooops, forgot to include the link to my insanity 😉 Apparently this elected official from Arizona believes you can tell by what someone is wearing, especially their shoes, what their status is.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/22/brian-bilbray-gop-rep-cla_n_547710.html
Great points Wolverine. Common Sense can be a very persuasive “argument”.
Do I hear a parrot in here? Jeff, did you have something else to add other than what Elena said? Feel free. You are out of first user moderation now. And welcome.
Wolverine,
Clap, clap, clap. Well said, coherent, thoughtful. What your wife has observed and shared is the truth. I live in a racially diverse neighborhood, but my son’s neighborhood friends are mostly Latino and live in Spanish speaking households. Our household speaks both Spanish and English, but without exception, all of his friends speak English when they play together. It doesn’t matter if it’s only Latino’s playing together, or a mixed group, it’s always English. I’ve seen the same thing with all the children of extended family. Yes, they speak Spanish for the most part to their parents, but when siblings discuss things, they speak in English. The notion that new immigrants aren’t assimilating is horse #(&%. They are assimilating as fast as any other immigrant generation ever did.
A few weeks ago, the Post ran an article about crack babies…they are all grown up…and are not the feared “mega maniacal criminals” that we were told crack babies would grow up to be. The fear mongering people spread about Latino’s is the same thing. Certain types of people say our culture will change because there are more Latino’s amongst us; I say this is bogus. Latino’s identify themselves as Christian’s at much higher levels than American’s do. I guess because they are not white Christian’s, there is a difference? Most Latino’s have a great work ethic, are religious and family oriented. The notion that they are all just a bunch of rapists and killers is ridiculous. There are rapists and killers of all races and it’s about the same percentage of all races that are dangerous people.
Thanks for that link, Elena. He’s a smart guy. LOL.
When I was growing up (Fairfax County) my teachers told my parents that I should only speak english because learning two languages would confuse me and hobble my understanding of both. So, I learned English. I’m pretty proficient but my grammar has much to be desired and I rely heavily on spellcheck. 😉
My mom is sad that I never really did learn spanish but she understood that if I wanted a good job and a good life that I had to learn english. Hey mom, you were right.
Now, once I squat out my broodlings they’re gonna learn english, latin and mandarin. They must be proficient in the language of our chinese overlords when they decide to cash in on our debt.
Why Latin? You sound like Mr. Howler.
English is a language of enpowerment. I also think your brood should learn Spanish. Mandarin? Tough language to learn and even tougher to find a place that teaches it without giving up your first born.
“They must be proficient in the language of our chinese overlords when they decide to cash in on our debt.” Yeah, good point.
“we might well arrive at a beneficial concluding point faster than one might expect”
And if not, well, at least we TRIED to undermine the value of labor for non-degreed Americans and at least we TRIED to send the message that the law is a joke, and at least we put millions more uneducated poor into our system.
What bothers me the most about this situation (not just in Arizona but nationwide) is that it seems the opposition and anger regarding the issue is misdirected. If, for analogy purposes, the great number of those in this country illegally (the word that seems to get lost in this) were of Irish descent, and I found myself concerned about being stopped or harrased because of my appearance or my name, I would be angry at those who created the situation. The illegal Irish immigrants. I wouldnt direct my anger at those government officials that are trying to do their job and enforce the law. And again, this was an analogy, no need to get into a debate about how that situation would never occur because I’m white etc. My point is we often get into fallacious arguments regarding this subject and dance around the real issue.
And probably if those in the country were illegal Irish immigrants (and I understand there are plenty of those here but they blend in better) their relatives and friends would protect them just like the Hispanics here legally protect their family and friends.
I also bet if it were the Irish, the laws would have been changed a long time ago to make entrance into the country easier. It is abso-f-ing-lutely ridiculous that we have a blog member, American no less, right here on Moonhowlings who has been married to the same man for 10 years whose husband cannot get a change in status.
I am not for open borders. I want my government to know who is in my country. But I also want our citizens to be able to marry those from other places and have them live legally in our country. Our blogger’s situation is dead wrong. The rules are broken and need to be fixed. The laws are nearly 40 years old and have been tinkered with. Time to start over.
I am also probably going to set amnesty as a moderation word when this debate starts also. Amnesty is forgiveness. That has never been suggested. Fines and hoops are not amnesty. They are fines and hoops to jump through.
As someone that has studied this issue for a while, I am intrigued by the situation in which an individual who is legally married to an American citizen for 10 years is being prohibited from gaining permanent lagal status. Don’t doubt the situation is true mind you, I’m just intrigued by the circumstances.
During the 80’s i spent many years in the Coast Guard doing HMIO patrols (Haitian Migrant Interdiction operations). It was then that I began to study and try to understand our often subjective immigration policies. Cubans that were caught at sea were repatriated but if they made it to dry land they stay. All Haitians were to be repatriated. This was done under the policy of political refugee v. economic refugee. As I understand it, those from Latino countries are considered economic refugees if caught and therefore subject to repatriation. I completely expect the administration to declare that the political issues going on in Mexico regarding the drug cartels and their on going struggle against the Mexican government and the violence that has ensued has now created an environment in which those that leave or have already left are political refugees rather than economic. This would mean that everyone here and those that follow can stay indefinitely much like the Cubans that mainly have clustered in South Florida. It gives political cover against the “a” word and also solves one of the administrations biggest problems, which is if you find a legal and politically expedient way to make everyone “legal” you have solved the “illegal” immigration crisis.
Just thought I would pull the pin on that grenade and roll it in the room LOL
Latin because it’s the base of all romance languages (and helps a lot if I want to guide them to the medical field [where I will further that child NOT to accept govt insurance]). Spanish would be nice to understand there culture in an abstract kinda way but first and foremost I’m an American and my children are Americans. They will assimulate and acclimate to an American heritage of understanding how this country (and not one that I myself have only stepped in once for a week when I was a child) is and what it stands for.
I had an interesting talk with my parents this morning. My mother immigrated illegally and my father had papers before he came over (waited 2 years). They met, fell in love, got married and I came about 9 months later. She filed for her paperwork and got to the front of the line, had to goto Canada and submit her paperwork at the border. What was funny about that was that she was 8-9 months pregnant with my brother so the Canadian’s didn’t want her in country ‘too long’ because they were afraid she’d pop and my brother would be a Maple Leaf..
Many countries protect borders with guns and muscle. I don’t begrudge the US for wanting to do the same – I agree with it. Now, having said that one a person is IN country (even if illegal) they are bound by the protections of our Constitution. If that means that we ‘miss a few’ on the hope of not violating the Constitution – I side with that.
Border enforcement and fixing the length of time to ‘do the right thing’ are what we should be concentrating on. If it’s a 10 year backlog for doing things legally, guess what – people are going to just break the law.
But, if are borders aren’t protected with automated sentry guns and landmines whats the point of having a ‘legal’ process.
“If, for analogy purposes, the great number of those in this country illegally (the word that seems to get lost in this) were of Irish descent, and I found myself concerned about being stopped or harrased because of my appearance or my name, I would be angry at those who created the situation.”
Yes, and I’m sure Latinos and other people in America sympathetic to illegal immigration would/will understand that arguement, when left wingers stop filling their heads with the idea that AMNESTY (I said it, MH) is a real possibility given enough marches and expressions of indignant anger.