Rachel Maddow takes a look at founder John Taunton and the organization FAIR. John Taunton still sits on the board of FAIR. Maddow interviews a rather hostile Stein who is the president of FAIR.
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Dan Stein is most defensive about some of the views associated with FAIR.
This video did, indeed, remind me of the McCarthy hearings. Is Rachel crafting a new “black list” based on associations? Somehow I thought liberals just hated that kind of thing.
If someone is sitting on your board of directors, that is a little more than an association.
Stein was his usual evasive, we are the good guys self.
The Abernathy woman? I wasn’t watching that closely at that point. I was waiting for Stein. I expect him to come back on the blog as a matter of fact.
There is no place for racism of this kind in our country.
If there is one good thing to come from this stupid AZ law, it may be the impetus for Congress to act on comprehensive immigration reform. It seems to have sparked something of a backlash among Latinos, libertarians and the liberal base of the Dem party.
Look, you can do this same thing with any activist organization out there, left, right or in between. They all have people whose past statements might cause a bit of embarrassment. They may even have some currently associated with them. Depends a lot on whether the old statements are still applicable or whether hearts and minds have changed doesn’t it? So what is dear Rachel setting up here? The personal authority to recommend whether an organization is allowed to live or die? She is as partisan as it can get. Do you think she would ever look for evidence that these same people may no longer hold these opinions? Or confirm that the group under her assault really does NOT hold to the personal opinions she is dissecting for her own purposes? Not. Using her modus operandi, I could condemn the Democratic Party for retaining Robert Byrd — which I don’t, precisely because water always keeps flowing under the bridge. People change. Circumstances change. Issues change.
For the first time ever I agree with Starryflights. There is no place for racism of this kind in our country. Only I will change the context just a wee bit. If certain people in this country keeping accusing others of racism at the mere drop of a hat, if some keep trying to smear others and tar them all with a broad brush, you are going to create a divide in this country which may never be bridged. And I guarantee that you will regret the result. This race card thing has gotten far out of hand. It looks to me like a whole lot of people don’t even try to debate things on the merits but resort immediately to dissing of character. In Arizona, for instance, the first charge that came out was “racial profiling” and accusations of ethnic hatred of the kind which Al Sharpton foists on the public on a regular basis. Scarcely a recognition by many of the real problems which southern Arizona has been facing and the fact that SB 1070 could well be but an expression of utter desperation in a situation where no one seems inclined to help solve the problems. But, no, make it immediately into an issue of race and get everybody at each other’s throats. I’m getting damned sick of this crap.
Dan Stein and FAIR have long been under our microscope. I saw no one else interviewing Dan Stein.
Rachel is no more partisan than Hannity, O’Reilly or any other Foxie. After a day full of them pontificating, I sometimes feel Rachel is a welcome relief.
Blah blah blah, in all of this not one word anywhere of the reasons this law, good or bad, was deemed necessary. The good citizens of Arizona are suffering tremendously from the ill effects of illegal immigration, and it seems no one gives a rat’s a&& about it. All I’ve heard and seen is the ‘outrage’ over this effort to do something out of shear desperation. Where were all these bleeding hearts while the citizens of Arizona were pleading for help from the federal government. Just once I’d like to see some footage of all the problems they’ve been dealing with, but no all you see and hear about is this ‘moral outrage’. It’s all turned upside down. We’ve allowed this generated guilt trip in this country to turn our backs on everything that once had value and respect, and have now become one huge charity organization that is supporting more people than it has the resources for. In short, American citizens need not apply!
And you are entitled to your opinion. I don’t think most of us would argue that the border states have special problems that need a solution. However, does this legislation address those problems or is it grandstanding, like the Immigration Resolution in PWC that was enacted to get a local politician elected?
Interestingly enough, the morning foxies are on interviewing people with the AZ tourism industry trying to mitigate the damage from this legislation. The spokesperson is trying to appeal to people that many in the tourism industry might be the ‘people you are trying to help’ which must be a euphemism for undocumented worker. 🙄
Don’t boycott AZ because you might hurt the undocumented? There’s a new twist for sure. I just heard this 15 minutes ago. Even did a rewind to make sure I had gotten the drift. Way to go, Foxies!
Why were all these people who are now so vocal, and who say they don’t support ‘illegal’ immigration, totally silent when the citizens of Arizona needed their support? That is what is so telling about the situation. Where was the media? Why weren’t we getting daily updates on the sad state of affairs in Arizona as we were on the wars (remember them? they are still ongoing!) before Obama became pres? Face it, the media controls our mind set. If it isn’t in the media it isn’t occurring. So where are all the anti-war people anyway come to think of it? Did the nation suddenly have a change of view? No, the media likes those NOW in power, that’s why there isn’t any NEGATIVE coverage. Those very same people are now covering the chaos in Arizona.
Mike Hethmon, the attorney for IRLI, ANOTHER tentacle of FAIR BRAGGED about the fact that his community was not diverse and HE enjoyed that, he preferred that! Wolverine, I am asking you to do some of your own research, we did, way back in 2007 and we were shocked at what we found. The social contract magazine is one place you may want to start. John Tanton isn’t just some random guy, he is the brains behind fair, he is the wizard behind the curtain.
On a totally seperate point, Dan Stein looked horrible to me, I almost did not recognize him from what he looked like in 2007. I may not like the guy, but I hope he isn’t seriously ill.
@Elena
Thanks for the recap on the 1007 efforts, Elena. Can you also re-explain the connection between FAIR, eugenics and population control?
“2007” that is. Fingers won’t work this morning.
Wolverine,
Here’s another article that you might find interesting, this one from the right.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Linda-Chavez-Progressives-and-Immigration-Reform-85506827.html
Let me just say, I don’t care if Tanton’s comments were made 25 years ago in a private conversation. It surely is insightful into the motivation of the organization. And it goes beyond Tanton into other individuals that represent this group.
This is exactly what mainstream news stream organizations should pay atention to.
Also, until recently FAIR had an American population counter at the top of their page.
Elena,
I noticed the same thing. He looked like a Jenny Craig program gone bad.
You notice how he seems to think something written 25 years ago is not relevent. I wonder what he thinks of the Constitution?
Precisely to the point, Alanna. Linda Chavez could well have been referring to myself and Mrs. W when she remarked about that large number of conservatives in the audience who appeared to her to be searching for a reasonable and workable solution to the illegal iimmigration issue. I have posted my views on that several times here to the point of getting tired of saying it.
My personal desire is to find a way to create a workable concensus which will represent the middle somewhere between the hard Right on immigration, which seeks the most severe of restrictions, and the hard Left, which often seems to want to ignore the very real costs to our society of unchecked illegal immigration. The problem for the mediators is that one side frequently resorts to accusations of racism and anti-Hispanic attitudes and the other throws back retaliatory accusations of anti-Americanism and faulty love of country. It is arriving at a point where the mediators in the middle cannot be heard over all the shouting and accusations. And then the curses start to land on the mediators themselves. If the mediators say to the Left that this country is no longer in a position to leave the doors open and that we have to secure our borders and deal with some very real economic and social problems created by illegal immigrants, we are accused by some of being in the camp of the hard Right. If the mediators suggest, for instance, that we are far beyond the point of being able to physically deport multi-millions of illegal immigrants or that at some point the Dream Act could be put to productive use to help solve an important part of the problem, we sometimes get accused of betraying the tenets of conservatism and of falling for the “anti-American” line of the Left. The end result could well be that the mediators, unable to make themselves heard over all the polarized artillery fire, will just throw up their hands in disgust and decide to walk away, leaving the unyielding opposite sides to beat the living crap out of each other. That, in fact, is what happened to me and Mrs. W. Caught between two unyielding camps which refused to stop clawing at each other and seek common sense solutions, we simply said “Screw you all!” and decided to use the Neighborhood Watch mechanism to at least create some peace and preserve the quality of life just in our own community, as well as try to spread that limited effort to our town as a whole.
What is needed here is for both sides to stop the extremist name calling and personal deprecations and show a willingness to look for workable solutions. We also need to stop beating the past like a dead horse. You do not have to agree with the entire agenda of the opponent, but at least look at it for the purposes of finding things which could serve as a starting point for compromise rather than responding with blanket condemnations based on old grudges. Not everyone will be happy if they don’t get everything they want, but the alternative is to wind up dragging this fight on forever and possibly tearing the national fabric apart to a point where it will be very difficult to mend it. Find some common ground and then see if we cannot identify workable compromises from there. But we will never do that so long as all the yelling and bitterness continues. Geez, if we had engaged in this kind of unyielding screaming match in 1787, we would never have had the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
And I do not agree with that role of the so-called MSM. In my opinion, the MSM has become a part of the problem on both sides in that it focuses too often on the extremes of a controversy rather than looking for those possible points of compromise and laying them out for all to see. These days the MSM are far too often the oil thrown on the fire.
For some reason only the sound came up for me. I couldn’t see Stein but he sure sounded pissy. If he rued being unable to discuss FAIR, he should have quit talking over Maddow. I loved the irony of his anger over her charges about various characters directly or indirectly associated with FAIR as he called the Southern Poverty Law Center “discredited smear artists”.
I think I may have run him off if it was the real Dan Stein posting on Anti. I asked him if he was willing to pony up some money to cover the damage done to PWC’s economy. He wouldn’t answer. Wah….
Wolverine, at least at the local level, the majority of the citizens of PWC were ambushed by the immigration issue. There were no public hearings to discuss the issue. The closest we came to that sort of thing was Citizens’ Time at a BOCS meeting. But the die had been cast before the meeting started. Our local right-wing blog and a pandering politician or two were responsible for the fiasco which followed. No cost/ benefit analysis, no thought of lost revenue far beyond the real estate crash, no care about the county’s reputation, no thought about how Hispanic residents might feel.
No one on this blog, to my knowledge, has ever ignored the fact that illegal immigration can cause problems. What we have taken issue with is the tone that has been taken and the assumptions that have been made. We are not ‘the open borders’ crowd.
There is no moderate dialogue it seems. Any attempts to discuss solutions is met by the far right with insults and name calling. Most of us here have suffered through that.
Arizona has 2 major sets of problems. A one size fits all law inspired by FAIR is not the answer.
Censored — I tried to keep one eye on what was going on in PWC at that time, although I was admittedly taken up largely with the major problems being encountered over here. To put it quite bluntly, I believe that PWC then and Arizona now can both be counted as “victims” of a Federal government which itself failed to find the middle and work out acceptable programs to deal with that porous border and the immigration system. This blatant and damnable political contest to entice the Hispanic vote has been and still is, in my opinion, at the center of the Federal failure.
On the one hand, it seems to me that you had people in PWC who got so fed up with what they perceived to be deteriorating quality of life and public safety, as well as an increase in fiscal burdens, in places like Manassas, Manassas Park, Dale City, Woodbridge, etc., that they went off like volcanoes because of frustration at the Federal failure, sometimes saying things they should have thought about longer before uttering them and then seeking redress in a way that was clearly perceived by others as an unwise failure to seek a wider concensus before taking direct action.
On the other hand, you also had people whose response to some very real local problems was that this was a Federal issue and the localities had no right to get involved in it. I heard the same argument over here. Well, damn it, the Federal government was falling on its face and doing nothing. Moreover, it seemed to me that there were far too many at the Federal level who were saying that we ought to forgive one and all for the illegal immigration problems, give everyone a free pass, and screw those citizens and legal immigrants who were complaining that their localities were in a fiscal, security, and quality of life crisis. Isn’t that what we did in 1986? Look where that got us. Right back into a fight whose bitterness dwarfs that of 1986. Thank you to over 20 years of continuing Federal failures to find acceptable compromises. And the parties are still vying for the Hispanic vote as if all Hispanics were generic cattle being auctioned at the local stockyard.
Beyond the usual news sources, much of my feeling for the nature of this fight in PWC over illegal immigration came from comparing the two most prominent blogs involved in it: BVBL and anti-BVBL. Both of these blogs provided and still provide a valuable and diverse insight into the current thinking in PWC. Unfortunately, what I also saw was a fight so bitter that the two blogs passed from debate into a phase of extreme bitterness and vituperativeness which neither has been able to shake off completely. Instead of finding a common search for compromise, I encountered things like accusations of anti-Hispanic racism and, of all the crap, “big, ugly female butts.” I also saw posters willing to express some contrary or alternate opinions get cut off frequently at the knees on both blogs. I made a few tentative stabs at getting involved but eventually decided I didn’t need all of that and left for other parts.
Moonhowler succeeded in getting me back simply because she seemed to have become determined to keep the debate civil and foster a genuine exchange of differing opinions. I must admit that this has been pretty darn good, with the possible exception of “Timmy Tiptoes” there. But I am also seeing the tempers rise again on both sides. So, I ask myself if I am about to see a redux of 2007 or whether this time we can avoid the extreme bitterness and get some productive business done. I am personally getting fed up to the gullet with this whole illegal immigration argument and with hearing the same old cannon shots time and time again.
So, I am going to hang this out for those whom I believe to be most committed to this struggle on the Moonhowlings side. That would be, in my opinion, Elena, Alanna, Pinko, and the Moon herself. I have given you enough of my own background to let you know that I have had a professional lifetime of immersion in foreign cultures and currently have a “rainbow” family, including White, Latino, and Black grandchildren. But I have also gone through a recent period in which my temper and tolerance have been tested to the limit by the behavior of many in the new Hispanic immigrant community. My whole routine has been upended by this and by having to deal in my community with the aftermath of such things as, inter alia, rape, robberies, burglaries, prostitution, car theft, drugs vandalism of private property, open sexual harassment by young males of our female population (including two of my own daughters). This is in addition to almost constant violations of our long-standing HOA rules. I am by nature and training a very tolerant man, but these things have made me very angry. I do not “hate” Hispanics or consider them to be somehow racially inferior but I certainly do “hate” what I have had to contend with over the past six or more years.
I certainly do understand the aversion of many of you to racial generalizations. That is my strict personal view as well. But sometimes I get the feeling that some of you are so set in your determination to avoid racial wrongs and racism itself — certainly a laudable goal supported by myself —that you seem not to care all that much about what your PWC neighbors may have been suffering in the way of lessened security and quality of life and sometimes even personal financial losses. I often wonder what your reaction would have been to the scene which I witnessed in which an elderly White lady who, having lived her entire married life in my community and raised all her children here, became so scared by the turn of events in our town that she and her husband felt they had no recourse other than to abandon the beloved family home and seek refuge elsewhere. She stood up in a public meeting and began to weep. So, I ask you here and now: In your efforts to keep our society free of racism, how much and what kind of effort are you making to broach the issue of unlawful and deleterious behavior with those in the Hispanic illegal immigrant community whom your are determined to protect?
Please do not take this as an accusation. It is not. It is just that, in many ways, I myself am caught psychologically and and philosophically between my tolerance and my disgust at what I see out there on the streets. Not so long ago, there was a time when, in the same hour, I could kiss and hug and love an Hispanic granddaughter and then go out into the street and chase off an older girl who resembled her in skin color and hair color but who was selling her body to the highest bidder across from my own house or stare down a car full of young Hispanic males in gang attire as they cruised my neighborhood. That, my friends, makes for a very upsetting and torn life.
I am horrified that someone can hold a seat on any board that has made statements such as the one’s pointed out in that video. I don’t care if they were made 15 minutes ago or 15 years ago. Anyone associated with a group (let alone a board member) that has made statements such as those in any context should get the boot unless the group has a tacit agreement with such statements. (Which I am sure there is more than a tacit agreement among FAIR members, as much as he is in denial).
A “long lost” cousin friended me on Facebook a couple of months ago. This week he posted his “support” of the AZ immigration law. He was “unfriended” immediately. With “friends” with opinions like that, I certainly don’t need any enemies. Had a right to his opinion, doesn’t mean I need to stay associated with him in any way. FAIR should ditch anyone with that sort of viewpoint if they don’t condone it.
Wolverine, my mother’s neighborhood (King’s Park – large 60s subdivision) in Springfield worked with Fairfax County to find solutions to similar neighborhood problems. They didn’t profile but tried to get the whole community involved in solutions. They had a good community newsletter and closely worked with the County. Their Civic Association president was elected to the Fairfax Board of Supervisors if I remember correctly. There has been a Neighborhood Watch there for decades – my father was part of it for some time. My own subdivision has had its share of problems and I’ve found the police and zoning (in the past) to be helpful. Our problems were all caused by white people. Unfortunately, you can’t deport those citizens!
I’m a New Yorker who grew up in the South of the 50s/60s and didn’t like many of the things I saw. I guess I’m a believer in trying to nip discrimination in the bud and I think we saw a lot of discriminatory charges hurled at Hispanics in 2007 here in PWC. (I, too, am a member of a racially and ethnically mixed family.) If you think that many of the comments on Anti were shrill in the beginning, there was probably a reason for it. People had been cut out of the discussion. I’ve kept my moniker as a reminder of the censorship that went on when BVBL was the only game in town.
Ok, so what should happen to Jesse Jackson and his ‘off mic’ comment concerning Obama? You folks are so outraged over inappropriate comments, so lets hear you condemn good old Jesse. Just as I thought, very hypocritical to say the least.
Elena’s quote: “Mike Hethmon, the attorney for IRLI, ANOTHER tentacle of FAIR BRAGGED about the fact that his community was not diverse and HE enjoyed that, he preferred that!”
Lets see, NCLR, not much diversity there! Nor is there much diversity in any single race only organization. Miss Black America pageant for example. Gee, I guess you’re upset because this white guy would rather live among people he can most closely identify with. Since when is that a crime? Now you want to force people of different cultures to live together while only certain ones are allowed to enjoy the company of their own race. The exception being the caucasian race!
S-A, surely you’re not clueless about why some of those organizations or pageants exist. I think it’s mainly our old geezer generation that can’t seem to get over these issues. When we all croak, society will probably be much more racially tolerant. In fact, younger people generally are much more relaxed about race. Black, white, Asian, Hispanic – they’re probably less inclined to feel the need for separate organizations. And if they do opt to join, it’s usually not so much because they’re feeling excluded from the majority but because they may want to celebrate a commonality they share within their group. I think you have blinders on as to the privelege white men of a certain age experienced merely because of their whiteness. How quick were white men to allow women, Jews, blacks, etc. into their schools, clubs, subdivisions? I think their acceptance was court impelled.
Until the Supreme Court, Congress, Fortune 500, etc. reflect the general population, cry me a river about exclusive clubs. The culture of this country has been based on white males. That’s changing and you are having a hard time accepting that. (I have a double major and both fields were male dominated – in staff and curricula. Hey, you guys aren’t the only people who exist in this country!)
There are still room that women can’t go in down at RTJ golf club, right here in Manassas.
Wolverine, I live in an area impacted by immigration in PWC. I have always been empathetic to people who have had to deal with overcrowding and other neighborhood issues.
There is a strong argument to be made for our county letting us down. Was neighborhood services responding to complaints in a timely manner? Which supervisors actually drove through the neighborhoods in their respective magisterial districts to see what was going on? I doubt mine ever drove through the impacted neighborhoods. He might have been driven through the hoods by concerned citizens but certainly he took no initiative.
We can blame the feds all we want but until Americans are ready to confront some immigration reform realistically, they are shouting in the wind.
Wolverine, you and Mrs. W are willing to confront the conflict. You are willing to look at the reality. How many other conservatives really are? Darn few I have talked to.
Wolverine,
I so appreciate your thoughtful questions and comments. My neighborhood in centreville changed drastically very quickly before we built our home out here in early 2001. I have discussed these changes on past threads. The immigrant population was not hispanic, they were mostly Pakistani. There were language barriers, no question, but I tried my hardest to reach out to my immediate neighbors when issues came up, even when it was domestic violence. I never, never would have dreamed of using county politics to resolve my concerns. I think censored shared a great example of how communities can effectively deal with serious neighborhood issues. Unfortunately, Manassas had a supervisor who has poor communication skills and clearly seems to be an introvert when it comes to getting personally involved with problem solving. We needed someone to roll their sleeves up and really engage the community and work towards comprehensive solutions. Clearly, that did not happen.
Censored: “The culture of this country has been based on white males.”
Yah, and the culture of Mexico has been based on Mexicans. The culture of China has been based on Chinese, and so on and so forth, so what’s your point? The thing that irritates me is that although this country was founded and brought to a position of world envy by white males, we now are suppose to cater to all but ourselves. So tell me why whites can’t have exclusive clubs, whether it be in schools or on the street, yet all other races are lavished in them. Talk about racism!
S-A, I think you’re equating US culture soley with white males, aren’t you? Much of your privelege was bought at someone else’s expense. You have no idea how much our culture would differ today had women, other races, other ethnicities, non-straight people been granted equal rights and priveleges from the beginning. It’s easy to say that white males are responsible for everything good about this country when they’ve kept everyone else out of their club until compelled by law to admit them. Just what club do you want to join that you’ve been prohibited from joining?
Name one club or organization that exists that is the white only equivalent of clubs or organizations that exist or have been formed for primarily one race of people, and I’ll pick one for you.
How has Africa faired since the ‘white males’ were run out of town. That may give me some idea of how this country would have progressed under other circumstances.
BTW, are you saying that no organizations are required that were formed primarily to help the poor and needy white people? A parallel to NCLR?
On your second point, by law no one can be discriminated against these days. As a matter of fact is has many many years, but I’m not so sure I’ve seen this huge difference in the country that you suggest. I see a lot more people here that are here for the money and not the citizenship these days! That’s for sure.
Censored, EXCELLENT points!!
I am not expert in foreign affairs, but if you are suggesting that white men SAVE the day sounds pathetic at best. What has the european influence been in Africa, well, when you cut up countries by false borders and CREATE discontent, I guess you reap what you sow.
http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/students/curriculum/m7b/activity2.php
Europeans did the same thing in middle east, drew false borders.
Elena, Africans were fighting each other long before the White man appeared on the scene. You’ve got a point about the false borders created after the Europeans divided up African between themselves; but, to tell the truth, the colonials did succeed in stopping a great deal of the inter-tribal warfare during their relatively brief hegemony in Africa. Unfortunately, it did not last.