AG Ken Cuccinelli loves to file law suits and briefs. He has several lawsuits against our country. Please someone tell me why he didn’t jump on the band wagon against the funeral protesters, Westboro Baptist Church, 48 states filed an amicus brief. 2 states did not: Virginia and Maine. WHAT? If there was ever a reason to file an amicus brief, WBC is it!
According to Huffington Post:
WASHINGTON — Forty-eight states and the District of Columbia have submitted a brief to the Supreme Court in support of a father who sued anti-gay protesters over their demonstration at the 2006 funeral of his son, a Marine killed in Iraq.
Only Virginia and Maine declined to sign the brief by the Kansas attorney general.
Albert Snyder sued over protests by the Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church at his son’s funeral in Maryland. The church pickets funerals because they believe war deaths are punishment for U.S. tolerance of homosexuality.
The Supreme Court has agreed to consider whether the protesters’ message is protected by the First Amendment.
In the brief filed Tuesday, the states argued they have a compelling interest in protecting the sanctity of funerals.
Mr. Snyder now owes WBC over $16,ooo because of a counter lawsuit. Americans are outraged that the father of a fallen hero would ever have to pay this horrible group a penny. Where is Virginia? Once again, Ken Cuccinelli shames us all. However, he now as one ally, according the the Richmond Times Dispatch–the ACLU.
Cuccinelli’s office announced that it is not joining 48 other states in filing a supporting legal brief on behalf of Albert Snyder, the father of a soldier killed in Iraq whose funeral in Maryland was picketed by Westboro Baptist Church of Kansas, a hate group.
Among other things, the church pickets funerals of American soldiers, claiming God has killed them for defending a nation of “sodomite hypocrites.”
Snyder is suing Westboro and its pastor, the Rev. Fred W. Phelps, for what he alleges was a disruption of the funeral for his son, Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who was killed in Iraq in 2006. Church members have become nationally known for heckling at military funerals and hoisting signs that berate mourners with slogans such as “You’re in hell” and “God hates you.”
After Snyder won a $5 million verdict in district court, an appeals court reversed the decision, saying the Westboro protestors were exercising their First Amendment right to free speech. The case is now moving to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Yesterday was the deadline for filing a “friend of the court” brief in support of Snyder’s case. Every state but Maine and Virginia lined up behind Snyder.
“The attorney general’s office deplores the absolutely vile and despicable acts of Fred Phelps and his followers,” spokesman Brian Gottstein said in a statement. “We also greatly sympathize with the Snyder family and all families who have experienced the hatefulness of these people.”
The statement said Cuccinelli’s office chose not to file a brief “because the case could set a precedent that could severely curtail certain valid exercises of free speech.”
Gottstein said Virginia has a law that balances free-speech rights but also protects people like the Snyder family by making it a crime to “willfully disrupt a funeral or memorial service to the point of preventing or interfering with the orderly conduct of the event.”
Albert Snyder said Cuccinelli will pay a price politically for not joining other attorneys general.
But the attorney general found an ally on the First Amendment issue from a frequent critic — the Virginia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.
“We completely agree with the attorney general,” said ACLU Executive Director Kent Willis, who called the issue a “fundamental gut check” of the First Amendment.
“This kind of deplorable free speech must be protected in order to make sure all speech is protected.”
The speech of WBC far exceeds any speech deemed tolerable by a civilized society. Their speech should be treated like yelling fire in a crowded theater or using the F word during prime time TV. The behavior of Westboro Baptist Church (sic) is totally unacceptable to conservatives, liberals, and moderates. What is Cuccinelli thinking? He should pay the political price, as father Albert Snyder states. Who ever thought the Cooch would be cozied up with the ACLU? I suppose politics makes real strange bedfellows in this case. Or…perhaps the Cooch agrees with WBC.
The First Amendment’s right to freedom of speech means nothing if it does not protect the speech of those whose words we find offensive.
Government censorship and state-imposed punishment are never the correct responses to ugly speech. More speech, better persuasion, and social shunning are far better reactions.
I heard a rumor that these sickos were going to demonstrate at the DC Memorial Day parade. I don’t know if they did or not. I’ve said it before, our forefathers didn’t intend that all speech be allowed, but only that vocal opposition to the government must not result in incarceration. Society should decide what speech is morally not allowed.
In this particular situation, I totally agree.
I want these people shut down.
Shame on the AG for not filing an amicus.
Agree. Shame on the ACLU too.
This isn’t free speech. It’s harassment. It’s time we acknowledge the difference.
The ACLU is supposed to do what they are doing. Most people dislike them 90% of the time. Many people dislike them even more. They are an organization. Cuccinelli, on the other hand, is an elected official.
It doesn’t get any worse than Cuccinelli. What a horrible AG.
Cuccinelli and the ACLU – strange bedfellows. Maybe the end of days is nearer than we thought.
I don’t think Virginia needs to get involved or spend any money on this case. Its being handled. I would rather Cuccinelli spend money to defend the rights of Virginians where others have for easy button, political correctness and party politic reasons opted not to – like health care. Cuccinelli is a a strict constructionist and I like it that way.
BTW, the WBC was in Prince William a couple of weeks ago to protest a soldiers internment. The procession was scheduled for 2:00, but unbeknowst to the WBC, the procession took place at 11:00 – with full police escort – by the time they arrived it was all over.
What is missing is a counter demonstration and a few tomatos.
Hear hear.
breasts of virtue, bad?
burials of soldiers being desecrated, good?
I did not vote for this Cuoochebag and look forward to seeing him kicked to the curb with the rest of Richmond’s garbage.
As much as the behavior of the WBC members is reprehensible when it is not foolish and childish, it should not be subjected to prior restraint to the extent that the Snyder lawsuit is attempting to reach. Doing so will not only shut down the screechings of the Phelpses but effectively silence just about everybody else whose opinion is not immediately accepted, vetted and approved by the majority – that mass of rabble-rousers that shouts the loudest.
Someone famous once said something along the lines of “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” At one time many, if not most, folks agreed with that sentiment and reckoned that we would then think about what was being said and decide if we agreed with/supported it or not. Now it seems we want to first decide if we agree with what you have to say, then determine if we will allow you to say it.
Sorry, folks, but I believe that the Attorney General has once again stood up for our rights rather than follow along because the other side is “popular”. The Constitution says the folks from WBC have a right to speak their mind and prove themselves to be intolerant and hateful. Virginia’s AG Ken Cuccinelli happens to agree with the Constitution.
I’ve been dreading this topic coming up… because I agree with Mr. Cuccinilli and the ACLU.
I think the speech is vile, is full of piss and vinegar and that the WBC should burn in the lowest level of hell for all of eternity.
But, that if the state interferes with speech at this level – what then is the limit? Ban books? More Tipper Stickers?
Freedom of speech exists to protect the most vile of speech, that which no one may agree with but may in some sliver contribute to the marketplace of ideas and the diversity of our American culture.
I agree in spirit with the 48+DC but I side legally with VA and Maine.
Doing so and admiting as such makes me sad today.
And filing an amicus brief costs how much?
TP, was that the intermet over at Quantico Cemetery that is in the middle of nowhere?
I would not trust myself to be around those people.
Wow Moon, your hatred for Mr. Cuccinilli has sunken to a new, disturbing low with this line:
“I suppose politics makes real strange bedfellows in this case. Or…perhaps the Cooch agrees with WBC.”
To suggest that he agrees with WBC is not only dishonest but offensive. Did you even ready the article that you posted which is clearly states his reason for not going along with the other 48:
“because the case could set a precedent that could severely curtail certain valid exercises of free speech.”
I’m amazed at two things here, even the ACLU agrees with the decision and that you would suggest that Mr. Cuccinilli agrees with WBC. Either you didn’t read your own post or your hatred for the man is sooooo strong that you will bash him for just about anything he does, good or bad.
News flash Hello, politicians sometimes don’t tell the truth. Another news flash, as soon as Cuccinelli got into office he went after the issue of gays. It is not a quantum leap to think that dislike of gays might have something to do with his decisions.
It could be that or it could be that he has no respect for those fallen heroes, dead miners or anything else the rest of us feel deserves respect. He doesn’t think that protective orders ought to be given out to ensure the safety of women in divorce cases.
If this is my new low, then I am still flying high.
But you are absolutely correct in stating that I dislike Cuccinelli.
Respectfully, the arguements above are flawed.
The question really is, at what point can the state interfere with the assembly and speech of the people. In this case, the message is vile, disrespectful and really has almost zero value in society. But, does the State have a valid interest and arguement in stopping that speech. Further, at what level then do we limit the excercise of free speech? Gay activists wanting to change Prop 8 in CA? Should they be banned? How about the illegal immigrants and those aligned with that position arguing against the AZ law? With 70%+ of the US backing up the AZ law should those people be forced to disperse and lay down those picket signs?
What about union strikes? Well that affects commerce. Let’s crush the unions with the commerce clause and force them back to work.
Again, we have to look at something like this without emotion. Where do we draw the line? At what point do we allow people with badges and guns to shut us up.
Mr. Cuccinilli’s decision might not win him a popularity contest (even among his own most loyal supporters) but he has sworn an oath to protect the Constitution. And, sometimes doing that job means you have to do things you don’t like so people you cannot stand can have the right to come together with vile ideas and words —– and freely use them.
So it’s ok to use the F word, the N word, on TV at 8 pm? How about screaming fire in a crowded theater? How about mentioning that you would like to see someone bomb a the plane while you are standing in the security check line at the airport? How about walking down the street naked? Or maybe just exposing yourself? These are all forms of self expression.
Community standards, safety regulations and decency all kick in.
The WBC violate all forms of decency.
Free speech isn’t always free.
Cutsey Nelli is a total disgrace….He appears to be channelling Pat Robertson all the time. Sure makes Virginia look like a horrible place to live….like the US version of the Taliban.
I am not sure where i stand on this one. I wonder though, if the attacked were republican tea partiers, and not gay people, would Cuccinelli have a different stand?
I doubt it. Because, it’s a fundamental question – that even MH touched on. Where is the line drawn? And, are we comfortable with that line being drawn at that point.
Remember George Carlin and his 7 Words.. how about Ice-T and his rap against Tipper Gore telling her she needed more d***.
With respect to Elena’s post – I doubt it makes a difference. Think about it. Cuccinelli would probably score a lot of points by having signed that document. Instead, he sides with the ACLU, The Thomas Jefferson Center for the Protection of Free Expression and others. Generally, no big friends of conservatives.
But, it’s not about the speech itself that Cuccinelli is taking a position on. It’s the ability for you and I to be free to say what we want. It’s about our personal freedom and liberty. On this point, I stand with the Democrats and support WBC.
God forgive me.
I have no issue with the use of the F word, N word, C word, B word, A word, etc. being used on [network] tv at 8pm. Now, you may get a different answer if instead of asking me you ask about a ‘community standard’ but I’ll play nice and answer only the question you provided. 🙂
Why should I be concerned over the use of any of those words especially in the context of a program that uses artistic license to demonstrate something of artistic value? I always reserve the right to flip the channel.
Freedom of speech may be your right to say or show something.. doesn’t mean I have to watch or listen to it.
Community standards often dictate what is acceptable to say and do in public. And God help us if we no longer have any community standards.
I stand by it being totally unacceptable to treat our fallen troops the way WBC does. WBC wags our own Constitution under our noses and dares us to do something.
We don’t have free speech. Trying going in to your job and yelling the F word at the top of your lungs. Sign up for the military and tell your commanding officer to go F himself. Or tell him or her you think the orders suck. Trying wearing a T shirt to school with some Mary Jane leaves and a hand gun.
I don’t know why you keep thinking we have free speech, Marin. We don’t have unlimited free speech. I can list 100 more examples that involve actual speech, attire, symbols, words, print, etc etc.
Yes, and the idea that I’m trying to impress upon you MH is that a government that can take away your ability to say what you want (or even think it!) can also take away your right to have a child or abort one. To be free to eat junkfood or not. To force you into a government program or not. To dictate the conditions by which you live your life.
I understand and appreciate that there must be some upper limit (in some cases). The extent of that upper limit is what I’m arguing.
I appreciate that you can cite examples upon examples but by doing so you further drive my point. All those examples are different in sometimes subtle ways. How do we figure out what is and isn’t protected speech? Would you have banned Elvis?
There are many areas of speech that I don’t like. I don’t have to like hippy’s assembling to talk protest Pelosi’s War. I don’t have to like Brady Campaign drones crying about how guns are evil. But, I have to respect that they have the right to come together and say what they want even if it makes me angry as hell that they’re pushing for something I disagree with.
I understand the emotions on the side of Snyder.. Thats not to say that I wouldn’t respect as a matter of legislative power the ability for a legislature to pass a law that abridges to a certain extent the ability for a protest of a funeral to occur in an area which provides the protestors and those being protested enough space so as to maintain a reasonable ‘keeping of the peace’. I believe VA has such a law (I have not researched it).
When we hand over our rights to provide more powers to our government (in this case, reducing our 1A to provide more ‘protections’) we must do so with extreme caution. What we give up is almost never regained.
You are trying to make the country something it is not, Marin. There is no such thing as totally free speech. It is a continual balancing act as to wear to draw the line. Most Americans feel the line should be drawn far away from where WBC steps over it.
Furthermore, no one is telling them they cannot say what they are saying. Everyone is saying don’t do it near our wounded warriors’ funerals. They can go home and say what they say on their own property. No one will bother them.
Mr. Fernandez can call us all racists. He can’t do it on a sign that violates proeprty codes in Old Town Manassas. It is no longer a free speech issue.
WBC represents the very ugliest of Americana.
Virginia has no law that will stop WBC. It isn’t about laws. It needs a test court case. I do not think they will prevail.
I take a back seat to no one in my detestation of Westboro for disrupting funerals and memorial services. However, it seems that Virginia does have a law. Virginia Statute 18.2-415 Disorderly Conduct in Public Places. Section B of that law makes the willful disruption of a funeral or memorial service a Class One Misdemeanor punishable by up to one year in jail and a fine up to $2500. You try to disrupt an actual funeral or memorial service, and the police can haul your sorry ass away.
Refresh my memory somebody. Other than that truncated and virtually nothing protest in Blacksburg on 9 April, has Westboro ever tried to disrupt an actual funeral or memorial service in Virginia? If so, what happened from a legal standpoint?
Oops, I missed PWC Taxpayer’s #7. Any others in which the Westboros actually ran head on into the police at a funeral or memorial service?
I just don’t see it working out that way MH.
“At the heart of the First Amendment is the recognition of the fundamental importance of the free flow of ideas and opinions on matters of public interest and concern. The freedom to speak one’s mind is not only an aspect of individual liberty – and thus a good unto itself – but also is essential to the common quest for truth and the vitality of society as a whole. We have therefore been particularly vigilant to ensure that individual expressions of ideas remain free from governmentally imposed sanctions.”
– Hustler Magazine v. Falwell
Of note, that was decided 8-0 with Scalia also in agreement.
I think one thing that is being lost in this discussion that I wanted to write out is… This Marine gave his life so that these f’tards could have the right to picket him. Hope God holds this Marine close and allows the members of WBC to burn in the special Hell.
With Mr. Cuccinelli having completed Marine Corps OCS this could not have been an easy decision for him. Talk about a gut check. I pray for him that he had the intestinal fortitude to do what was right.
I simply don’t think he did what was right.
Regardless of what laws we have in Virginia, those laws are not going to supercede US law. This is a case before the Supreme Court. That test case is going to either affirm our law or shoot it down.
We very much have a vested interest in what happens and what doesn’t happen.
I believe WBC have definitely demonstrated in Virginia. I don’t think they actually made in in to Arlington National Cemetery though.
It is important to remember that Mr. Snyder will have to pay those creeps $16,000 should he lose this case. They won an appeal. He has to pay THEM $16,000 because they protested his dead son’s funeral and called him a fag and all sorts of other horrible things.
Shame shame shame on Cuccinelli.
If, ask one poster wrote, you have to ask your God to forgive you, then you know your own argument is wrong.
In every sense of the word, ethically and morally.
Lucky Duck seems to have summed up things very well.
From the Arlington National Cemetery Blog:
Those violating the act face up to a $100,000 fine and a year in prison. The federal restrictions were limited to national cemeteries for jurisdictional and legal reasons.
Westboro has picketed at Arlington National Cemetery. I don’t think they got inside.
You can have all the laws in the world. Mr. Snyder won his lawsuit. WBC appealed to a higher court and Mr. Snyder’s case was overturned. He now owes WBC $16,000. So who cares what Virginia’s law or any other state’s law is. This must be the law of the land, not the state.
What of those heroes who are buried at private cemeteries? This thread is beginning to make me physically ill. I see a bunch of wanna be lawyers trying to interpret a document and not even looking at common decency.
@Moon-howler
MH, that’s low. Wanna be lawyers? C’mon. Above the belt please. I debate you with respect. I ask for the same.
http://www.scotuswiki.com/index.php?title=Snyder_v._Phelps has a lot of the documents regarding this case including the opinion of the 4th Circuit. They bent over backwards to say they don’t agree with WBC but they have to follow the law and rule for them. One justice pointed out that Snyder just didn’t have a case at all.
I encourage anyone that’s read the opinion to argue the facts of the case and it’s merits rather than just the emotional side of it.
It isn’t just you Marin. And I am just being honest. Supreme Court justices look at so many cases to form their opinions. I don’t think the average person can really say what freedom of speech is.
Seriously, the discussion is making me sick. I think these are the most horrible, heinous people I have heard of, at least in the United States. (other than murderers and child pedophiles) I think what they do is so far worse than yelling fire in a crowded theater.
For what it is worth, I happen to agree with this decision of the AG. Certainly not all of his decisions but definitely this one.
Freedom of speech is too vital to our democracy to have it triffled with. When our son was killed, I will be honest and tell you that I feared that WBC would show up. I asked (inappropriately in retrospect) our Police Chief to keep them away and out of my sight if they did show up. Thankfully, they did not show. If they had I certainly would have lost it. Temporary insanity would have been my defense. But with a passage of time has come some perspective. All those who serve swear an oath to defend this nation and to uphold the Consitution. That includes protest in its many forms.
Another way to look at this would be if someone burned an American flag in protest. I’d be furious. But I have to protect their right to freedom of speech so that my right to that same freedom is protected.
Mark, I am sorry for your loss. Those words sound very trite but I have come too close to losing a child myself.
I don’t think your request was inappropriate and I don’t feel all speech is free. In a civilized society we have limits which I have spoken of ad nauseum. To me, burning a flag is bad taste, unAmericanism, and a host of other things but ultimately, it offends, it doesn’t hurt to the core.
Thank you for sharing your feelings about this issue. And I am glad those monsters didn’t show up at your son’s funeral.
Mark,
Thank you for sharing such painful memories. I think that is why I am so torn on this issue. These WBC people are worst than despicable, they are vile, disgusting, worthless, and words than I cannot think of to accurately describe them. But, freedom of speech is a double edged sword, of that I agree.
I think requiring a distance from funerals is not a violation of freedom of speech and maybe that is the best way to handle the abomination of WBC.
Why does Cookoonelli hate our troops? He should be ashamed of himself.
I think WBC should be jailed. Why are people making accommodations for these vile POS dirtbags? They cross a line. They harm others. Is exposing yourself freedom of speech?
I am beginning to think most people here would answer yes.
good point, not freedom of speech to expose oneself.
Well, it depends MH. What’s the context of that exposure? Is it walking around in a trench coat doing it to little boys and girls? Is it Daniel Radcliffe in Equus? Is it a man exposing his shirtless body at a McDonalds or at a pool? Is it a woman going topless to protest that a man can do so without being arrested but that a woman cannot?
1A arguements are made in the context of the message that’s being pushed. Is it a manure smeared image of the Virgin Mary? Is that protected speech? Can be, yes. How about 2000 naked people laying down on a street to protest Darfur? Yup.
As Mark pointed out.. When we permit the 1A to be chopped at it’s knees by allowing someone to sue because they don’t like the message… That is dangerous territory in terms of our liberty.
Elena, you’ll be happy to know that the 4th Circuit pondered the same thing… that it would be well within a states legal rights to erect free speech zones at funerals to allow for the dignity of the ocassion and still allow those that wish to protest the ability to do so with enough space in between so that cooler heads may prevail.
Let me throw this out too because this thread is ‘sorta’ also about Cuccinilli. We haven’t even yet discussed UVA’s challange of Cuccinilli’s request for documents regarding global warming. UVA is mounting a 1A challange. How could Snyder, if he were to prevail, affect UVA v. Cuccinilli if it were to be heard by the SCOTUS? What precident are we setting with Snyder?
Think long term………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Screw Cuccinelli. Let him sue. I really don’t care about anyone but Snyder. No one should be treated as he has been treated.
And you know freaking well what I mean by exposing one’s self. You whip it out on someone you probably will do some jail time. Self expression.
I think someone walking around exposing HIMself is far better than what was done to Mr. Snyder. Yet that will get you arrested. This country has misplaced values, if Mr. Schlong goes to jail and WBC takes $16k from Mr. Snyder.
I understand that 41 states now have laws against disrupting funerals and memorial services. In three of the cases which were taken to court by Westboro and the ACLU, it seems that the district and circuit courts got hung up less on the concept of protecting funerals and memorials than they did on the precise details for accomplishing that. As far as I can understand it, the setting of specific distances beyond which the protesters are not allowed was one of the things with which the courts had difficulty, especially when it was applied not only to the funerals but also to the processions. The question became, it seems to me, at what moment re distance does the protection of a funeral or funeral procession become a violation of First Amendment rights. (Unless there are additional codicils which I do not know about, Virginia’s statute does not spell out such distances.)
Missouri’s law was smacked down by the 8th Circuit and the Supremes refused to accept the case for review in June 2009. The 6th Circuit accept the protection part of of Ohio’s law but apparently nixed the operational details. Seeing that the lower courts have been all over the map on this issue, it appears to me that the Supremes are going to have some tough work to do to try to get this whole thing workable and constitutional at the same time. It might require more than just the Snyder case to do it.
And you might be right, Wolverine. Thanks for taking time to look at that. I get confused by all the different districts and who said what.
I just want people protected from these vile wretches. I want Mr. Snyder protected. He has lost enough. Bill O’Reilly is paying the $16k. Not sure if that has happened or not. These creeps are getting their travel money this way.
Next thing you know, they will show up on the gulf at the oil slicks claiming God hates fags so he made an oil slick. I hope some one pushes them in.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/weird/Boy-Girls-Gone-Wild-Transgender-Men-Go-Topless-on-Del-Beach-95616184.html
Now, THAT is funny.
“A male is guilty of indecent exposure if he exposes his genitals or buttocks under circumstances which he knows his conduct is likely to cause affront or alarm to another person,” according to Rehoboth law.
On the other hand, a female is guilty of indecent exposure is she exposes all of the above or her breasts.
–Either we’re equal or we’re not. 🙂
Marinm, ya gotta love Rehoboth. It’s got the best restaurants and shops for a “local” beach town and a varied populace which is pretty tolerant of everyone.
Keep trying for equality of exposure though you’re not likely to get too many takers. lol
[…] with disdain similar to that shown by Michael-In-Norfolk in AG Cuccinelli Refuses to Join 48 States in Amicus Against Westboro Baptist Church. What is curious is that Moon-howler quotes an article that observes the following. But the […]