Sheriff Tony Estrada has four decades of law enforcement experience under his belt, including 25 years with the Santa Cruz County Sheriffs Department. He is serving his 5th term as Santa Cruz County Sheriff, now in his 18th year.
How can 2 people tell such vastly different stories?
I am all about letting people find their own comfort level as to their identity. Most of you all know me, know my real email address, and why I chose to be Moon-howler. I will continue to be Moon-howler on the internet because thats all strangers need to know. If anyone wants more information, email me.
‘Prosecutor at Gitmo’ sounds like just words until you really start thinking about it. Shudder. It unnerves me enough just thinging about to want to change the subject lest we be jinxed.
Still, I will defend Wolverine with every ounce of my being if he wants to just be Wolverine here. He has his reasons and I will not question him or pressure him to do otherwise.
SA, It was what you said about Sheriff Estrada that unleashed the firestorm. You suggested that because he had a Spanish surname he would be biased. For all you know, his family has been here for generations. It is an assumption we shouldn’t be making. You accused him of being a fox in the hen house without any real reason to do so other than he has a Spanish surname.
I am far more suspicious of politicians who are up for election than I am sheriffs who have served for decades.
Oddly enough, Estrada doesn’t sound that different than lots of LEO CEOs.
some stats from Santa Cruz Co, AZ
http://www.fedstats.gov/mapstats/arrests/county/04023.html
http://www.fedstats.gov/mapstats/crime/county/04023.html
It appears the figures back up what Sheriff Estrada said.
Ok MH, but if you had to bet wouldn’t you bet he was Hispanic? Tell you what, if you can find that he isn’t of Hispanic origin I’ll personally apologize to all those here that are so outraged that they would actually refer to me as a bigot. How about that? My assumption could be wrong, as in ‘but how do you know they’re illegal?’, but I don’t think so, but then maybe OJ was innocent after all!
Here’s a quote from the good sheriff:
“I’m disappointed because they are painting all illegal immigrants with a broad brush,” Estrada said. “Everybody is bad, everybody is harmful, everybody is hurting the economy. That is not necessarily true.”
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/border/article_7f8be9a8-4cb2-11df-906c-001cc4c002e0.html
Sounds like just the man to stop illegal immigration doesn’t it? I bet he’s tough as nails when it comes to dealing with illegal immigrants, right!
Her’s another quote from a different interview:
“I don’t believe in fences, I don’t believe in barriers,” Estrada said. “They do not stop people.”
My assumptions were correct!
http://65.125.114.210/MeetTheSheriff.aspx
Sheriff Estrada was born in Nogales, Sonora, Mexico, immigrated with his family as an infant and grew up in Nogales, Arizona.
Now tell me I’m off base!
@Moon-howler
I understand and appreciate certain wishes for anonymity and why you are you Moon. I, and I think Moe, chose to be “in the open” and so be it. But I find that certain folks hide behind a veil of a pseudonym to hide their racism, etc. But their veil is shot through with many holes.
Well, considering the man appears to be 60 years old, I would say he is probably an American. I never questioned that he was Hispanic. I don’t think it matters. Did you check the crime rates? What is it that you want him to be upset about?
He has different issues than we have here in PWC.
My problem, SA, is that you assume he is somehow not doing his job because he is Hispanic. You are assuming he is overlooking some nefarious behavior because he is Hispanic.
He pretty much said they were twin cities and that people go back and forth. The same thing happens along our northern borders. People from Michigan drive over in to Canada, do a little gambling, visit, shop, come home.
What we need to be worrying about it drug violence from Mexico spilling over in to the United States. That has nothing to do with sb 1070. Elections are being held in 12 Mexican states tomorrow.
SA, stop trumpeting. You have discovered nothing. Sheriff Estrada was born in Mexico. So what? That means nothing other than he was born in Mexico. It certainly doesn’t mean he is guilty of malfeasance as you suggest.
George, I have my reasons past and present. If you cannot decipher the meaning of the first two sentences in para 2 of #24, then I am not going to try to explain it further.
So far, George, you have called me a pig, a bigot, and now a veiled racist. I refuse to respond in kind. The book of Service Etiquette for officers of all the armed services, as you may remember, recommends engaging in a conversation containing disagreement in a manner which does not leave the sea strewn in burning wrecks. Always did like that turn of phrase.
What does one do if the raccoons keep going after the garbage. I keep putting it out, and the raccoons keep coming after it. AH, move my garbage. They come because they know that the garbage is out there. Treat the problem, not the symptom.
Go after the employers, the illegals will leave. If they cannot get the jobs that WE are paying them to do, they will leave on their own, they will stop coming. Even our previous DHS Secretary was hiring illegals to clean his home. Mitt Romney speaks spanish to his illegals as they tend his lawn.
Just looked around, and on my block are 3 recent high school graduates doing Lick for the summer – out of school, and not even taking a job before college (and do not tell me their are no jobs for them – I know a few small business that are looking to hire a few young kids – the kids come in and say, but I want off on the weekend.)
MH, come on, give me a little support here for showing proof that 1. he is of Hispanic descent, 2. he does appear soft on illegal immigrants, 3. he is against the Arizona law, 4. it is probably the Hispanic voters that have kept him in office. How much more evidence do you need that it would be personally difficult for him to come down hard on Hispanic illegal immigrants that he may encounter in his town? He appears to be weak on enforcement at the very least which is my entire point. How can one not draw that conclusion? You are as much denying the possibility as those denying there was ever a problem with illegal immigrants in PWC.
No one defined illegal immigration as involving only those crossing our borders who are criminals. It is defined as any non-citizen crossing our borders without permission. I can see how this discussion is trying to force the opinion that “as long as they aren’t criminals or drug traffickers” they should be allowed to freely cross into our country, or shouldn’t be dealt with harshly. If only 10% of the 12 million illegal immigrants were deported for being criminals, then we still have to deal with the presence of the other 10.8 million. Eventually the entire non-criminal population of our southern neighbors will be at our door steps looking for work and support. If you don’t see that as a problem, then I guess I’m wrong.
SA, I never said there were not problems in PWC. Everyone who knows me will vouche for that. I just didn’t like the political way of handling them.
#63
1. yes he is of hispanic descent. That shouldn’t matter. So is Bill Richardson, it just doesn’t show in his name.
2. He doesn’t appear soft on eillegal immigrants to me. I saw nothing in that interview to draw that conclusion.
3. yes, he is against the AZ law. He saw it to be a pain in his butt and an expense.
4. I expect it is the American voters who are keeping him in office. Don’t you have to be an American to vote in American elections?
I looked up the crime rate. It was as he said. If there is no major problem, why create one? SA, you are wanting him to be touch on illegal immigrants. It isn’t his job to be touch on illegal immigrants. It is his job to handle the duties of sheriff in Santa Cruz Co.
You cannot separate status from ethnicity. I also think you are looking at this issue through Virginia eyes rather than through Nogales eyes. I think our experiences are very different from theirs.
BTW, Happy 4th of July! Regardless of where you came from, Enjoy!
If Tony Estrada’s name was Tony Bennett, Tony Curtis, Tony Brown, Tony Smith or Tony Jones–he would have had unquestioned credibility for some.
Unless some on here are what we now euphemistically call Native Americans, all of us are immigrants at some point in our history; some by choice and some were forced. But we are immigrants.
@Wolverine
If the shoe fits…
Mr. Harris, I don’t know about yours, but mine didn’t come into this country in violation of the law. Although I don’t weigh into immigration issues, I am getting a little tired of people painting everyone as being an immigrant, and the same as those here illegally, when the only persons that people complain about are here in violation of Federal law. It is becoming the ultimate red herring.
And “Native Americans” came from elsewhere too.
However, people already here have groused and complained about each new wave of immigrant. In fact, if you just substitute the word immigrant, you would be able to tell 1920 from 2010.
The first immigration law was passed in 1875.
Its only wiki but…
Can we agree that American Indians have been here at least 15,000 years? Can we agree that as of 10k years the Bering land bridge between Asia and North America got zapped and they were stuck here?
10,000 years is good enough for me.
My family really wasn’t from England either. My brother just had the National Geographic DNA test done on our Y chromosome. I can see the early patriarches and I suppose matriarches coming up out of Africa, doing a little tour of the fertile crescent, then into the steppes of Eurasia, then west to Europe, in particular to England, parts of Spain, and even northern Italy. They finally ended up here, in America.
I have to rely on others to tell me what all that human migration means. I get confused if I go back too many great grandfathers.
“Moe is right–we will never be able to deport all the illegal/undocumented people who are here unless we wish to resort to something very close to ethnic cleansing or what was done during the Holocaust.”
NONSENSE! When they can no longer work mainstream jobs (janitorial, landscaping, construction, fast food, restaurant cooks) and can not obtain any type of federal or State welfare – and I said when, not if – 99% will leave.
Thanks, George. I love you too. Actually, I must warn you that your ranking on the grand list of blogosphere name callers may be starting to slip. You have just got to broaden your ammo magazine. I have yet to hear Nazi, neo-Nazi, right wingnut, neocolonialist, nativist, douchebag, Neanderthal, Latinophobe, whack job, KKK lover, potential domestic terrorist, fascist, a**hole, etc., etc.. “Jackassery” you don’t get. I think that has a recent copyright. Anyway, George, the younger things on the blogs are leaving you in their dust, four-striper or no four-striper.
Rick, do you really think most illegal immigrants are here for welfare? I want to know how they are getting it.
I have faith in the human spirit. I think those parents who want a better, safer life for their children will do what it takes to remain here, regardless of what happens. That’s the way it has always been. Migration has always been the way people have improved their lot in life.
During the heavy immigration years from mid 1800 to 1920’s, something like 1 in 7 immigrants died. Those aren’t real good odds for starting a new life. Yet people still poured into the country.
I have never heard Latinophobe before. My own personal favorite is ethno-centrist.
Lost control of this one
my objective is not to control or direct what people say. If someone says something I don’t want on the blog, I simply take the comment down.
And if the guys want to insult each other, I am not going to jump in the middle at this point. None of them are new, they are all regulars and all involved are more than capable of fending for themselves. In fact, too much so, which is part of the problem…:roll:
Obviously this is a hot issue. Perhaps this is one of our more honest debates.
From my perspective, I can’t imagine why anyone doesn’t see Brewer as a political machine. Many others think just the opposite. Not sure there is even a middle to meet in on this subject. And I am not firmly planted on either side…..
“It isn’t his job to be touch on illegal immigrants. It is his job to handle the duties of sheriff in Santa Cruz Co.”
It is now. He just doesn’t like it. He believes that his constituents and the Mexicans are all just one big family and shouldn’t have to worry about the border. It wasn’t his problem. The Feds would take care of that……
Well, now its his job, too.
Not until July 28. And he can have his opinion, which happens to agree with most LEO CEO’s. He gave his reasons. His reasons make sense to me. Did you see the crime stats? 1 murder. 3 rapes. He probably wants to work real hard to keep the problem on the other side. His way.
Seems to me they are missing a lot of tools of the trade that they will need to get the job done. I have yet to hear a training plan for every cop and sheriff and deputy. Who will pay for that? Where are their jails to hold all those criminal illegal aliens? Will they be able to tie in to federal records like those who have MOU with ICE?
The whole thing is jackassery…..(thanks MOe)
“Rick, do you really think most illegal immigrants are here for welfare? I want to know how they are getting it. ”
Not most, but some. Just last night at Walmart my wife and I saw a couple that spoke little English using food stamps. Many illegal immigrants – not most, but many – get food stamps and free school lunches for their kids. Of course they get free medical care also, unlike many Americans. They are being given the impression by these things that we want them here. But most of us don’t.
So stopping any access to welfare can be part of the equation of getting them to leave, sans the “round them up and put them into camps with stars on them (and maybe tattoos)” option. Kids need food? Better find a legal guardian who is a citizen.
I don’t mind the school lunch program. I am long over that.
I don’t think illegal immigrants should get any welfare of any sort. We can’t afford to have Americans on welfare. Of course welfare has become so compartmentalized, I am not sure what is welfare and what isn’t.
I also don’t think walking on a hospital bill is the same as getting free medical. I don’t mind clinics and free clinics for poor people. Sliding scale is a good thing.
But who do we believe? I am still going to ask that question. Estrada sure paints a different picture than Brewer.
I think we need to make sure that violence doesn’t come across the border. That should be first priority.
Here is an excellent reference from National Geographic to view the American and Mexican towns/cities.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0705/feature5/map.html
@Moon-howler
1 murder, 3 rapes.
The entire population of the county is only 39-43,000, (estimating since last count was 2000)
There shouldn’t be any crime in such a rural county. 10 people per mile.
However, when the mission changes, the troops need to shut up and soldier. And his mission has changed.
He needs to lead, follow, or get out of the way. I don’t understand how making sure that the person you stop is a US citizen is going to make “crime-fighting” harder. The only time he is supposed to check citizenry is WHEN he is dealing with a crime.
It isn’t a big issue if:
1. that isn’t the reason you stop them
2. don’t have anything else more important to do.
3. have the time to do all sorts of follow up work
And he never said he wasn’t going to do it. He gave reasons why he thought it was a bad idea.
Cargo, there is always going to be crime, I don’t care where you go, as long as there are people. I left that part out. I still say they need to prioritize. They have to watch that border stuff like a hawk.
My mother went to visit my brother a couple of weeks ago who is stationed at Ft. Huachuca, AZ. When she was departing the base to the airport on her flight home, my brother drove her to the airport in the wee hours of the AM. He was wearing his MP uniform(he’d be back in time to report to duty) and driving a vehicle with base stickers.
Well then they found themselves stopped by a border patrol checkpoint on the interstate.
Was my brother required to stop? Absolutely.
Did he have to produce ID? Absolutely.
Did my mom have to provide ID? Absolutely.
Were they requested to roll down windows for a cursory flashlight check of vehicle? Absolutely.
Was the perimeter of the vehicle subjected to a sniffing by a drug dog? Absolutely.
Was my mother’s luggage in the back subjected to a search by the drug dogs? Absolutely.
Did either of them have an issue with this? Absolutely NOT.
Would either of them be considered a “person of color”? Absolutely not.
According to my mom, each and every vehicle received the same check. NO ONE got waved thru.
Sometimes you get a cursory glance, sometimes you don’t. I have been stopped several times.
I am not sure a passenger ever has to give ID unless there is probable cause. The probable cause is the rub.
Some passengers don’t have ID. It isn’t required to carry ID in America. Correction: There is some law that trumps all others if you are within 100 miles of the border. I was on the I 40 in AZ which was not within that boundary.
Ft Huacuca is 15 miles from the border.
@Wolverine
Do you think I really care if there are those whose lexicon is bigger or uglier? NOT!
@Rick Bentley
And who would do all those jobs Rick? Immigrants, legal or illegal wouldn’t be doing them if “real Americans” would do them. You know those “real Americans” don’t you? They’re all that poor white trash and people on welfare who just don’t want to work.
Oh, BTW, did you check the papers of those folks in Walmart? Many legal immigrants don’t speak English, but their kids will and their grandkids probably won’t be able to speak the language of their grandparents.
But I’m just making generalizations…
@Wolverine
Wolverine, I have a serious question regarding your constant referral to my “four stripes.” Does envy really make you green or is that an old wives’ tale?
George, I voluntarily left the service as a full line lieutenant because I had ambitions in a specific direction other than the military. Not that I didn’t enjoy my time in the USN. I count it as a wonderful life experience. But, no, no “green” involved, George. When I finished with that other “direction”, my rank was the same pay grade as yours. Same as that of Morris as well. My last year or so of military service was on the personal staffs of two vice admirals in charge of major commands — and I mean personal. My office was two doors down from the vice admirals. Using the terms “four striper” or “four stripes” becomes somewhat of a habit in that sort of milieu (not in front of them, of course) since the place was chock full of them — most of them real gentlemen I found. No disrespect for the rank, George, I assure you. It is just that I don’t remember any of those captains who would have called me a “pig”, of all things.
@Wolverine
I can’t find anywhere in this string that I call you a “pig”. It would appear that you chose to assume the mantle voluntarily. I don’t believe Moe’s comment was aimed at just you–it was aimed at all the jackasses who claim they really don’t have anything against certain ethnic groups.
As to the role of a lieutenant on the staff of a vic admiral, I understand that role, having been the chief of staff to a 3-star and having lieutenants on the staff. I had several commands, large and small, Navy and Marine Corps, in peace and in war. You may have gotten the pay of a “four striper”, but, to paraphrase Senator Lloyd Bentsen, “I know lots of four strippers, I served with lots of four stripers and one, two, three and four star admirals and you ain’t no four stripper.”
George, you forgot the very first post you addressed to Morris. I think that is where you advised him about not wrestling with the pigs. Then you brought my blog handle into it in the very next sentence, and subsequently displayed a total lack of knowledge about anything I had posted about myself on this blog. Attention to detail, George.
I and Rick are still awaiting your apology for that remark about your Black son-in-law and your two grandchildren. You cast erroneous aspersions on two other guys with racially mixed families, and not one little “ooops and sorry about that” out of you.
Whoooo, boy , George, you have that “only us military guys were ever important” syndrome big time. Look, George, you happened to run into one of those guys who does not get a thrill running up his leg and a case of the awes whenever scrambled eggs pass by. They rate my salute and respect and I have liked almost all of those I have known; but, as they say, those guys put on their pants the same way everybody else does. You don’t even have a clue yet what I did for that “four-striper” pay, so your comments about “ain’t no four-striper” are totally irrelevant. Lloyd Bentsen indeed! Hah!!!
Enough of this. George, I have read almost all of your postings on other blogs. Surprising how much of which you have written finds me in agreement with you, particularly that scolding of the USG for thinking of contracting out military medical jobs to the private sector. Dumb, dumb, dumb, I fully agree. And I sincerely hope that Carrie is doing well. But, anyway, it looks like trying to talk directly is out the window, so I leave you with another 100% agreement: you can certainly be “a sometimes difficult person.” I’ll give you that one for sure.
@Wolverine
Put up your “creds” and then let’s see what happens. Or were you so covert that no one knows? Real 00 spy or something like that. Very interesting, but how is one to know? As far as I am concerned, no “creds” or very sound reason for none, then you’re no different than anyone else. Sorry.
Let me come to this “game” a little late. In the exchange that involved George, Moe, Wolverine, SA, Rick et al. I think that what happend was more about defending the way in which the conversation unfolded more than the content necessarily. I know George and Moe personally, they are good people, but we also have a personal connection.
Unfortunately SA set the tone of this thread and it simply degenerated from that point on. I believe that Wolverine is a good person and not intentionally bigoted, racist or cruel. However, SA puts people on that “side” of the fence in an untenuous position, you want to defend “your” belief in fighting illegal immigration, but you really don’t want to be included in what could be viewed as bigoted beliefs (like ASSuming someone’s is not tough on crime because they have a hispanic surname).
so maybe this would be a good time to take a deep breath and maybe do some relaxing meditation……..O.K., or at least look at the girl in the video, she’s kinda cute and the woman talking at least has a calming tone!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFqHa4gOP3c&feature=related