I guess the BOCS showed Dr. Walts. Apparently many of them think he is getting too big for his britches.
From the Washington Post:
The Prince William Board of County Supervisors postponed accepting and budgeting federal stimulus funds for school jobs Tuesday, halting Superintendent Steven L. Walts’s effort to hire 180 more teachers by next month.
“We always respect and honor the decisions of our governing bodies,” Walts said in an e-mail. “While our preference is to have the new teachers in place for this year in order to positively affect our students’ learning as soon as possible, we will postpone our plans. . . . For the thousands of students who will not have the additional teachers this year, I am extremely disappointed.”
Class size will continue to be a problem as long as the budget is tight. The BOCS, however, hit a double. They got to show Walts who is boss, or in their case, who ultimately holds the purse strings. In addition, they all got to show that they wanted to ‘cut spending,’ even though counties run by smarter leaders will get the money.
Class sizes and the organization of special ed classes will continue to keep PWC Schools from being a world class school system. Walts was hired to create the best learning environment for the children of Prince William County. It seems that he walked on other people’s turf while attempting to do what he was hired to do.
The children of PWC will be in overcrowded classes while Walts gets taught a lesson and the BOCS can crow to their constituents that they voted down spending. And whoever gets the money that would have gone to PWC Schools is laughing all the way to the bank while they use our stimulus money to pay salaries, benefits (including VRS) for additional teachers.
Prince Billy Bob strikes again.
Yes, who would have expected that the PWC BOCS decision not to use Federal funds to hire 180 teachers into our teachers union would be opposed as ‘’even though counties run by smarter leaders will get the money. ”
Question: Did the local or national teachers union agree to forgo any union dues from this deal and how much money is that exactly that would passes directly through to the union?
Question: is is better to hire all those folks now and then later get caught in a debate over the reduction of teachers and OMG the impact on students and teadcher families when the federal funds run out — or to control spending now?
Question: was this all job spend or was there a resource and infrastructure component to the 180 teacher request?
Question: just how much federal control of education is; (a) constitutional and (b) appropriate?
Question: what is the spend per pupil in PWC compared to surrounding districts and nationally? By what percent would the 180 teachers spend – spread throught the county have increased by?
The professional association gets nothing from the deal. There are no union dues.
And if there were unions and union dues, what difference would it make, You either need to reduce class size or you don’t. Your question is irrelevant.
Prince William spends less per pupil than surrounding areas.
My personal opinion would be to make the dept of ed a agency rather than a cabinet post and to get rid of NCLB but I don’t think anyone cares what I think.
You might find out your answer in the Robley Jones Post of 8/20. Not sure I understand the queston about resoure and infrastructure. The money allocated pays salaries and benefits.
The people would be hired provisionally. The contracts would be modified.
The real question would be “Are extra teachers needed to enhance learning in PWC?” When there are classes with 35-40 kids in them, the answer is yes.
So how do we solve that? Not by cutting off all communication like the boy wonders did last Tuesday. We don’t put kids on pause. Perhaps if the BOCS were just a little more involved in the school system as citizens, they would understand what the problems are.
Mr. Stirrup wondered about class space…what if there are no classrooms available. I wanted to laugh. Trailers, janitor closets, stairwells, stages all get turned into classrooms when space is needed. A visit to a school would show this. Most sit at the dias and bequeath money here and there to various clubs etc and never enter a school.
Maybe some of them should go volunteer some time to help out in a classroom since they cut off the option of getting some new teachers. I challenge them.
Meanwhile, someone else gets that money. Make no mistake about it. And the citizens of PWC still pay for it.
TP, you want to do a search on ‘per pupil spending.’ It should pop up somewhere in the form of a comparison chart. VEA might have it even. Virginia Education Association.
I belielve PWC is at the bottom of the barrell of spending per pupil. Less REALLY is less!
I wanted to vomit over the political grandstanding by John Stirrup! Where was his outrage over the Iraq war spending, unpaid tax cuts, medicare prescription?????????????? What a hypocrite. How DARE they play politics with kids education. I wonder how over crowded the private school is that he pays for for his child is?
Wonderful. So it would work just like the Clinton 100,000 police officers, who never had to pay any dues and there was no pressure to keep them on after their year of federal funding ended – except that THIS WAS ALL IN WRITING ???
Yes, lets talk about hypocrites and that new School Board building – how many teachers and how many classrooms would that have provded for over the years, just from interest.
The union dues are irrelevant. There is no union–just professional organizations. Why do you keep going on about something that doesn’t exist?
Meanwhile, kids are sitting in classrooms with 37 kids? Can’t you see that is the crux of the matter?
I have no clue about Clinton cops. Whatever happened, that’s been over 10 years at a minimum.
Actually, that isn’t the topic so let’s not talk about it. Take it to the open thread.
How many students is too much or too little? I understand that at some larger universities you can have lecture halls filled with 400+ students to 1 teacher.
Is 40:1 too much? 30:1? 20:1? If we get to 10:1 will we have people arguing that until we have 2:1 that children are being left behind?
How much per pupil spending is enough? How many students per classroom? What’s the line? Anyone got any URLs for per pupil spending in this region? Do they also calculate capital costs?
Just would like to see some hard numbers for what we’re talking about..
MH, delete my post or move it to the open thread as you see fit.
So TP,
You must have been against the Bush tax cuts too. THOSE were intended to sunset, twice now.
Also, I think people forget about attrition of Teachers. 180 teachers for 74 THOUSAND students is not all that many, but at least it is something to help with special ed etc.
Me too MH, delete my post or move it to the open thread as you see fit. There is nothing relevent here about the mandatory payments to professional associations when considering this federal stimulus funding.
Marim,
Higher education is a FAR cry from elementary and even the under class grades of high school. That is apples and oranges to me.
TP, I addressed your Kelly building concern on the open thread. There are no mandatory payments to professional organizations. Stop saying that. It isn’t true. Membership in professional organizations is totally optional and you pay with your own money if and only if you chose to join one. Most people do for the tort insurance.
Marin, you are fine right where you are. It is on topic.
Marin, you are dealing with adults with those huge lecture hall numbers. I will say that I think it is a might sorry-a$$ed way for adults to learn also. That is when you become a number. Very few schools have lecture halls for those numbers.
And I think it is fine as an occassional way to learn…studying trees in the great out doors or a field trip to one of the parks. However, kids need to be corraled and disciplined. Pretty hard to discipline in a lecture hall.
There are state standards on class size based on best practice. I don’t remember what they are. Young kids are lower numbers than older kids, mainly because they are less independent.
Elena, I think this is OT but you raised the issue and I want to bring truth to power. The consensus right now is that Mr. Obama will extend the Bush tax cuts to avoid a double dip. He may try to find some way to do so for only the top 1% but that’s unlikely based on how the law is written and the sunset. If he doesn’t extend then his campaign promise of not raising taxes on anyone under 250K is lost as the Bush tax cuts do effect the middle classes.
Though it could be argued that ObamaCare technically scuttled the 250k promise but that’s more of a technical arguement that those in the bottom 50% who don’t pay taxes would not understand.
Ok, the 400:1 of colleges somehow are apples and oranges. Ok, I’ll buy that for now. So, what’s appropriate for K-12? Who gets to set those numbers? How was that research conducted? I see a lot of discussion about classroom sizes being ‘too big’ but what’s the right number? Maybe homeschoolers have it right with a 1:1 – 1:4 ratio?
MH, the field trips remark is amusing from the perspective that parents are asked to assist (no issue with that) but then if something occurs on that field trip the parent that is watching over the kids can be sued for damages. I don’t think in Virginia that we extend immunity to parents for taking care of other kids as a volunteer on field trips. Scary position to be in if I was land owning parent….
Before this issue can be properly addressed, everybody needs to separate the objective from the subjective and emotional issues. Reasonable people can disagree on maximum class sizes, budget line items and what constitutes political posturing. What should not be subject to arguement (apart from a larger discussion of the legislative and budget processes as a whole) is the procedural manner in which those potential funds are allocated and appropriated to accomplish the stated goals, that is laid out by statute.
The issue here is that Walts did an end-run on both the SB and the BOCS, some would suggest that is his typical MO, nevertheless, that end-run forced the issue and the actions by the BOCS. We can speculate whether or not Walts thought the SB or BOCS would call him on his actions but the fact of the matter is that the BOCS did and I can not blame them. Ultimately it is they who control the purse strings and decisions regarding present and future debt, I would have done the same thing but in a far less civil manner. As for the SB, if this doesn’t serve as an eye-opener as to the rogue tendencies of their “thoroughly vetted” Superintendant, then I suspect nothing will.
For the purposes of arguement lets change the dynamic, suppose Tom Blazer felt certain that he would secure $20 million of Stimulus funding to do the engineering studies and environmental analysis for a six lane road from Nokesville to Warrenton, right through the heart of the Rural Crescent and contracted out the project to engineering firms. The studies would be paid for but there would still be an enormous actual construction cost at the back end. Moreover, just as many will argue over the necessity of hiring an additional 180 teachers, I suspect even more would argue over the necessity of such a road. Does anyone think the BOCS would have allowed that to happen and where would this discussion be under those circumstances.
No one is arguing the procedural eff up, but waiting until 2012 is not acceptable. Having BOCS use their position to “rail” against a Demoractic President is totally unethical in my opinion.
I also do not see your correlation between a road through the RC and over crowded classes with stimulus money directed to hire teachers. Not one person has demostrated that the teachers will NOT be paid for, all I hear is conjecture. Show me that this is a “bait and switch” by the Federal Government.
Having been in the public school system I can tell you first hand the strain of overcrowded classrooms, on the abiltity to teach, and the learning environment as a whole. Is there a difference between a classroom with 23 kids and 25….no. But there sure is between 23 and 30, a HUGE difference, especially when you account for ESOL and Special Ed.
How about this for a solution Marimn. You allow it to sunset and write NEW tax cutting legislation, one that looks more like what Clinton did.
The correlation is simple, stimulus funds in this go-round are targeted toward hiring teachers, stimulus funds in the initial iteration were targeted at things like transportation projects. The difference is that in the case of the initial stimulus projects, nobody in the County Administration had the arrogance to presume spending them or incur a fiscal obligation without authorization from the BOCS. No one is claiming a bait and switch. Again, everyone needs to divorce themselves from focusing on the schools and the children and focus on the appropriateness of Walts’ actions, to do otherwise is exactly what he was counting on and most of you are far too intelligent to be his unwitting dupes.
Mom,
You and will have to disagree. I am not defending Walts. Since there has been NO discussion about the stimulus money, if there would be any county culpibility, and since we WON’T have a discussion until 2012, the point is mute. I am not falling for anything. That the Board REFUSED to even discuss the money is my problem, it’s that simple. Had the BOCS kept their political diatribe to themselves and simply focused on the question at hand, I would have said nothing. However, delaying ANY discussion until 2012 is what I am objecting to and nothing else. Kids are in overcrowded classrooms, that is true and has been true for years and happens in probably almost every school system that is developing at the rate of PWC.
The BOCS should have simply admonished Walts and delayed the discussion of the stimulus money until a full session. John Stirrups ridiculous speech is what I find the most objectionable.
Eeh, perhaps its just that I’m not sold on the notion that this will not be discussed until the next budget cycle. That may have been the intent (intentionally or otherwise) of the resolution but to my way of thinking the ball is now in the SB’s court and the issue can rise or fall depending on their actions (as it should have been in the first place). Again the real issue is that the process was (PC ALERT) queered from the get-go by Walts and any blame for how this shakes out in the end should lie squarely on his shoulders. My guess is that he will get his hand spanked, the SB will in some fashion address the available funding (when the specifics are known) and forward some manner of resolution to the BOCS for action, regardless the text of May’s resolution.
With regard to Stirrup and his speech, again, Eeh. That goes part and parcel with partisan (and some argueably non-partisan) political offices; in other words, its to be expected and is neither a particularly good or bad thing, just something that will get the juices flowing on both sides of the aisle. He’s done it before as has Corey and for matter so has Jenkins, only in his case the comments were regarding an administration of a decidedly different persuasion.
Mom, The only people I see acting on the emotional were the ones sitting up at the dias.
The question really comes down to whether we need more teachers or not. This is a measurable, quantitative question. The answer will be yes.
How to go about it? That’s the part that needs discussion. The BOCS cut off all possible discussion of the matter until 2012 and for that they should be voted out of office. They once again acted capriciously, inconsistently, and it was all about 2 things: politics and control.
They wanted to show that they were voting against spending and they wanted to teach Walts a lesson. It really isn’t their job to teach Walts a lesson. He is a school board employee. It’s the SB’s job to kick his butt.
There is absolutely no reason they could not do as Mr. Johns requested and as Mr. Principi proposed: They could have tabled the issue until 9/14. The school board had not even met yet. There could have been joint meetings of school board and bocs during that time.
The bottom line is, the bocs found it more acceptable to bash the school board for not all being there which I found simply unacceptable. The school board no longer serves at the behest of the supervisors.
We are not going to agree on this. You are about procedure and I am about kids in Prince William County getting the best educational environment money can buy, if the money is dangling out there for free.
Procedure can be handled. Having another crack at the money cannot be handled. Opportunity knocked and the politican children who voted to defer discussion for a year didn’t go to the door simply because they wanted to get re elected and kick Walts in the crotch. It sounds like a double to me.
Regardless the need, the question really comes down to whether, under the current budget plan, capital improvements plan and revenue forecasts whether we can afford more teachers or not. That is a measurable, quantitative question and if the answer is yes, likely presents another question, what are you willing to give up in return?
The procedures are in place to counteract the often subjective and emotional issues that often characterize budget line items. Their other purpose is to protect the residents and to a lesser degree the BOCS from what might be viewed as the arbitrary or capricious acts of county employees.
@MoM re #20
You are letting your dislike of Walts and your affinity towards procedure cloud over really happened.
Walts is not duping us at all. He is actually more or less irrelevant. Remove Walts and look at the picture with ALL the facts in. Don’t close off discussion like the 4 supervisors did. And I bet my next paycheck that behavior will be used at election time. See what I did, See what I did!
marin, there are state guide lines that go along with the standards of learning regarding class size.
There is also common sense, which is sometimes employed, but not often enough.
How about putting 39 students in a classroom because those students are smart and easier to teach? The classroom is still the same size and the furniture for the kids to sit in stays in the classroom, making it impossible to move about the room without everyone breaking their neck. That kind of stupidity……..
I don’t know the answer to your school board parent question about field trips. I expect the sb carries a limited policy for those who have not been convicted of wrong doing.
That is usually how it works. All bets are off if a conviction takes place.
Mom paints a very good arguement – I’d say really take a moment to ponder what she wrote.
Elena, I’m not against your idea in #19 but with the tax cuts expiring in December and Congress taking it up in September my fear is that they’ll rush to build something that disinfranchises segments of our population; like the rich or the middle class. Personally, I’d really like to have Congress explore the idea of a consumption tax and repealing the income tax. So, I’m not totally against what your saying but if we’re going to do that – let’s go full monty and really think outside of the box but not overly rush things.
MH, no one will every be happy with the sizes of classrooms in public education. I don’t think we’ll ever really get to a happy medium where we can agree that $x of spending per pupil is THE answer or a ratio of 1:x provides the maximal level of knowledge transfer.
I do think, as Mom pointed out better than I, that voting in an unfunded mandate by hiring now with the ‘hope’ that we’ll get funding later is governing in fantasy land. Our county must act as a pay-as-you-go rather than the Administration where they can print more money, push up debt and bankroll whatever they want without thinking of the consequences.
The issue could’ve been resolved if 1 capital project would’ve been terminated to ‘find money’ to pay for those positions. That’s where governance comes into play; what are the priorities – fund those. The nice to haves have to wait.
@Moonhowler
Moon, I had all but given up on our discussion and basically assumed that we were just weren’t going to agree. But I’m going to give it one more shot to see if I understand your reasoning on this. So, here goes.
You stated, “There is absolutely no reason they could not do as Mr. Johns requested and as Mr. Principi proposed: They could have tabled the issue until 9/14. The school board had not even met yet. There could have been joint meetings of school board and bocs during that time.”
Waltz was in the process of hiring the 180 teachers and they would have already been in place before Sept. 14. What is the point of either Board having a meeting after the decision is already made?
I am going to pull rank along with Elena and suggest that perhaps we know a little bit more about this subject from where the rubber meets the road.
Here is also where I say, Jesus, what does it take to make people understand that no one wanted a vote last Tuesday for an unfunded mandate. I wanted them to table the issue until both governing bodies could get the facts.
God forbid that decisions be made from looking at facts. Must all decisions be made from a getting re-elected point of view?
To even start an argument that teachers aren’t needed in any jurisdiction is absurd and will not be entertained.
Capital projects have a different funding source. Meanwhile the bocs votes through all the housing developments. Should we pitch tents to educate the children?
Just out of curiosity, what mandate, unfunded or funded, would have been voted on. I see no mandate.
As you’ve pulled rank on this thread I don’t see anything further to discuss on this thread.
Obviously that is an idiomatic expression….pulling rank.
I would expect you to pull rank on me regarding 2nd amendment. You know more about it than I do.
But suit yourself.
@Moonhowler
What is your answer to my question?
One of the problems is, the parents don’t realize how large the classes will be. Teachers probably don’t even have their class lists yet. The parents aren’t paying attention now because it isn’t impacting them or their kids.
However, when they get back and little Johnny is in a science class with 39 other little Johnnies, then it will hit the fan. The schools will say it can’t be helped because reduced funding. They won’t give full disclosure.
However, I will. I will do a thread on here daily if that is what it takes to expose what really happened. Politics Politics Politics.
Food, he was preparing contracts. Preparing contracts is not the same as issuing a contract to an individual.
He works for the school board. It is up to them to rein him in if, in fact, he needs to be reined in. A phone call between adults could have set the record straight and put a stop to anything nefarious going on.
Actually, my sources tell me that there was an awful lot of rumor going on and it is never good to make decisions based on rumor rather than fact.
Food, have you actually seen a person with one of these contracts? That just isn’t how things usually work.
And for the record, I don’t stay here 24/7 to answer questions on demand. It is probably a good thing that you called my attention to your question because I overlooked it. I did feel like I was being admonished, however.
“Preparing contracts is not the same as issuing a contract to an individual.”
And therein lies what I think is the crux of our disagreement. If memory serves (and I don’t feel like reviewing the tape, the position purportedly taken by Walts in his e-mail to Peacor was that not only was he preparing the contracts but also issuing them upon completion, with the understanding that funding for those employees from hiring to approval of the stimulus funds would in essence be begged, borrowed or stolen from somewhere within the existing budget.
To belabor (albeit likely in vain) another point. There are other long and short term costs associated with those contracts that extend beyond mere salaries or this fiscal year. One example would be the VRS contributions which were deferrred not eliminated. For arguements sake lets assume that the stimulus funding came in at $8 million, $44,444 per teacher on average. As VRS is essentially an “everybody’s in the pool” proposition wherein the county CHOSE to pay all employees 5% match without exception, that means and additional $400,000 burden (plus interest) when the deferred VRS payment comes due. Ergo, this is not the simplistic premise that Walts has or will publicly put forth.
And yes, I do blame him. Rest assured its nothing personal, just the way he does business.
The Educational jobs package allows all benefits to be paid from that fund. VRS is a benefit. So that cost would not be incurred by the county.
But, that is not the point either. My grouse is, and continues to be, that all discussion was cut off and deferred until next year.
I had a different understanding about where Walts was in the process. I understood that he was preparing modified contracts to be given out. It is up to the school board to tell him to stop if he was handing them out. The money had not been allocated.
There has always been some rift between BOCS and SB. Back when the BOCS simply appointed the SB, they could lord over things a bit more. Now the SB is independent, they don’t roll over and play dead quite as readily.
And for the record, if information came out that indicated the ed stim would be bad for the county, I would change my mind. So far, nothing has come out that indicates to me that waiting to find out more information wouldn’t have been the correct way to handle the situation.
Don’t the school board and the bocs ever communicate?
from the Robley Jones post:
If this information is accurate, then I see no reason to turn down the package. However, there may be information I do not know, so I reserve the right to change my mind based on new information.
This attitude should have been held by the BOCS. But now they get to tell their constituents that they voted against spending so waiting to find out information wouldn’t have worked for them.
@Moon-howler
If they voted to table discussion, can’t they vote to “untable” it? (Is there a real word for that process?)
I am amazed at how situational the response is to end-arounds among county officials. If Corey Stewart were to deviate from procedure in the slightest, many of you would be up in arms. Because Walts co-opted the process for the benefit of teachers, somehow it is okay. It is apparent that some believe that the ends justifies the means.
I am not quite as enthralled with the school system as many of you appear to be. Regardless of how much money is thrown at the schools, it takes a lot of effort from parents to make sure that their kids receive a proper education.
Pinko, I don’t see why they can’t untable it. I didn’t see any indication that they would consider doing that.
Kelly, Is Walts an elected official? No. Does he have a boss? Yes. If he is not following procedure, he should be reined in by his collective boss, the school board.
Is Corey Stewart an elected official? Yes. Does he have a boss? No.
So how is it you want me to compare 2 unrelated situations? I don’t do the ‘what about thus and such’ as a deflection.
So far Corey is innocent on this one. Let’s not drag him into it. It is so rare that I don’t have to take him to task. Can’t I just bask in the neutrality?
I am not sure where you see enthrallment with the school system. What to give us a couple of examples? Not that much money is thrown at PWC school system. Compare it to other No. VA school systems. Kelly, you are aware that different student needs cost more? For example, some special ed students might cost $40k per year to educate. Regular ed is somewhere around $10k.
And you are right about it taking effort from the parents to see that their kids get a proper education. I am not sure that is a bad thing. That is certainly something we can talk about though. Do you mean that the parents have to spend too much time in the evening tutoring?
chop chop moonhowler! When someone asks a question, you better hop to it!
Kelly,
I agree, education starts in the home, there is no question. For many of our youth though, with two working parents, that is easier said than done, and in the end, it is the teacher that is held responsible for a child passing or failing.
Most schools have homework clubs and after school tutoring.
yes Elena, I got my chop chop orders.
@Elena
And many parents don’t know how to help their kids academically. We aren’t all content experts, you know.
MH, you are probably right. They won’t “untable” the decision because they would not want to be viewed as weak…or God forbid, democratic.
This whole school things just makes me sick. It was so capricious and political and …well..obvious. The one thing remains: some classrooms will be very over crowded. Learning just isn’t optimal in overcrowded classrooms and when teachers are overwhelmed.
Maybe the Educational Jobs bill isn’t the answer, but let’s explore it and find out, rather than just nixing it right then and there.
What a bunch of jerks. Everyone involved in that vote used up their good will with me!