103 Thoughts to “Wed. Sept. 1 Open Thread”

  1. Our cause? My only cause is not having an ignoramous ruling the United States along with the band of thugs. I will continue to speak to traits that make Palin unacceptable to be elected to national office.

    I keep asking for just a few reasons people feel she should be president. No one answers.

    Cause? This coming from someone who claims to be a TPP?

    Marin, why are you going paranoid on us? What are you drinking?

  2. marinm

    100% sober. If Congress gets this new power there literally is NO check against it. None. Zip. I know Cuccinilli argues that Congress can mandate that we buy GM but I’m taking it to the next level. With this power they can literally mandate who can and cannot breed all because the offspring may or may not contribute to the future commerce of this country.

    I don’t think I’m a crackpot in this. You just have to read the governments own filings to see the natural progression of where this can be taken.

    Ms. Sarah Palin is an intelligent person that can relate to the common voter. That she advocates a return to our Constitution is something to be admired. I think people belittle her for her folksy charm and dismiss her as a simpleton; I don’t think she is.

  3. An answer…..finally. She might be intelligent. However, I feel she is ignorant and relies on soundbites from death panels to just being nasty about the president to appeal to people.

    She is attractive and folksy. You can say the same thing about Obama. Apparently that doesn’t cut it.

    Additionally, I am just not so sure how much any president can ‘return us to our constitution.’ I am not sure quite what that means. there have been many changes since the Constitution was first written. Its sort of nice to wish for the good old days but I think we need to decide what that entails before starting on the journey. Right now, returning to our Constitution is just another sound bite.

    How about who is calling you a racist?

  4. marinm

    MH, I respectfully disagree on Palin.

    No one on here has called me out as being a racist. What Slow and I are focusing on is the sentiment that TP’rs are somehow ‘racist’ for disagreeing with the Administration. Many weeks back when the cries of racism were happening on the national news on a minute by minute basis it cut into independent support of the Administration. As those that don’t identify with either major party see that those that disagree with the Administration are labeled as racist it moves those votes back to the -R column.

    The Left is helping the Right win the hearts and minds of the -I with the hate rhetoric.

  5. And we can respectfully disagree….I will have to admit that you are the only person who has ever given me an answer.

    Did you read the Vanity Fair article on her? What is your opinion? Here is the article. It sounds like people are afraid of her. And I don’t believe everything I read.

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2010/10/sarah-palin-201010?currentPage=1

    I thought someone had done it here. I am glad they didn’t. So far I am doing ok with no trigger words.

  6. marinm

    Politico ran a piece on it and pointed out that she had refused to be interviewed for it and that they interviewed ‘people around her’ for the piece.

    I prefer not to read hit pieces. Politico had some good (if you can call it that) highlights on the article.

    I’d venture to say that (spin turned on!) even if a few things are true in it; like the shouting matches and language it reinforces that she’s no better or different than one of us. She’s not an elite; she’s an everywoman.

    BTW, sent you a few emails. And yes, I do think people fear her. I got an ACLU email today and the first sentence was; “We can’t let Sarah Palin or anyone…”

  7. Wolverine

    There is something which has mystified me to some extent with regard to the consistent striking out against Sarah Palin on this and certain other blogs. Perhaps my thoughts on this will resonate only with those of my generation like the Moonhowler herself and not so much with you who are too young to remember.

    I was a young man in that 1960’s-1970’s when women’s liberation came to the fore. In effect, I was one of those thoroughly puzzled and confused young men caught in that transition and having to figure out how to deal with the “new American woman”, especially those who were educated, independent, and ambitious. For you younger ones who now experience this as an accepted fact of life, you cannot imagine the confusion which suddenly intruded into male-female relationships in that era, accompanied by a whole lot of other divisions such as ideological and political attitudes toward things like civil rights and the Vietnam war. I do not think I exaggerate when I opine that this era of my own youth was one of extreme puzzlement as to the proper conduct of inter-gender relationships when the old road maps were being torn up and thrown away. To add to this, my personal experiences occured in both government and academe right in Washington, D.C., a virtual epicenter of change at the time. Add to this the slower but nascent signs of change within our military services.

    These are just my personal observations. When I look at Palin, I cannot but help but see in her some of the goals which seemed to me to be in the strong mindset of those female liberationists of that era of my youth. A woman with the guts and drive to try to break glass ceilings. A woman seeking political success without hanging onto the coattails of a powerful man. A woman not endowed with certain good fortunes of life such as wealth or access to a vaunted Ivy League education but a woman of lesser personal circumstances who is determined to start at the bottom and use her own talents to rise upward, depending not at all on the constant push from men of power and prestige. A woman seeking to maintain a balance between elements of a traditional married home life and the demands of political position — perhaps one of the toughest roads of all to travel.

    I have to say that I see Palin in much of that. She did not come from a background of wealth and power. She did not have an opportunity to go to Yale or Harvard as an undergrad, much less matriculate into one of our more prestigious law schools. She had to scramble to get a post-secondary education and scramble over a longer period of time than most of us. She had some self-created delays in all this, but those delays did not seem to deter her from trying to strive upward. When she married, she did not marry into wealth or prestige or power. She married an Alaskan Joe Six-Pack who runs a small fishing business and prefers the outdoor life in the tough Alaskan wilderness. She worked side by side with this man, including spending the needed time out on the fishing boats. She became a rather proficient outdoor person herself. She also became a mother several times over.

    How easy it would have been for her to see all that as a blessing and settle into a comfortable home and small business life with a man who shared her interests and her love of family and of Alaska. Indeed, apart from working the fishing boats and being able to hunt and field strip a moose, she could well have been almost exactly like so many women that I have known in my life and still know out there in the Heartland. As a genealogist I have seen so many of those obituaries: Born on such and such a date to such and such a mother and father. Married on such and such a date to this or that man. Mother of X number of children. Grandmother and great-grandmother to others. Member of such and such a church and active in church societies. Loved by all and certainly to be missed. End of obituary.

    Not to be for Palin. She wanted more, and the first step, as I recall, was the town council in that little Alaskan town of Wasilla. From there it was to the mayoral chair. O.K., so Wasillla is not exactly big-time politics. Many self-annointed “sophisticates” in our political world have chosen to mock its smallness. But, by golly, some of you ought to try governance in a place where you know everybody and everybody knows you and almost everything about you. Tough to hide. No way to take refuge in Gracie Mansion from the demands of the governed. No cadre of flunkeys to run your errands. You have to maintain the peace between people who see you at the grocery store and the post office, in church on Sunday, and almost everywhere else where they can take potshots at you if they are angry enough about something.

    Then Palin climbs all the way up to the governor’s seat in Juneau, jumping over people with names much more known in Alaska than her own. Again comes the 2008 mockery. Alaska? Big deal. Small population, less than most of our large cities. Really. Have you ever looked closely at a geographical and demographic map of Alaska? Notice the lack of roads? Notice that single railroad line between Anchorage and Fairbanks? This is a place where contact with many, many constituents depends on planes and bush pilots in terrible weather and often trackless wilderness. You want ethnic diversity to deal with? Look at the ethnic makeup of large parts of Alaska. You want experience in dealing with large companies? Look at the North Slope and that pipeline. You want experience in dealing with the military? Plenty of that in Alaska. You want experience with the environment? Alaska — at almost every turn.

    So, tell me, those of you dedicated to the rights of women and the success of women at all levels of our national life. You have a woman here who, without the male coattails and without great wealth and privilege, managed to climb to the very top of one of our 50 states. She also managed to come to the attention of a presidential candidate and get tapped as his number two in a critical election. You have a woman who does not hestitate to expound on her views and to inject herself into our national debates. Now, perhaps you disagree with her politics and her ideological views (no slam from me here on that); but, good gosh, is this not the kind of female independence and sheer guts which I heard being lauded many years ago by the women on campus who burned their bras and demonstrated in the streets and told us old-fashioned men to take our old-fashioned attitudes and stuff them?

    Sarah Palin has chosen the political life and combined it with an effort to hold onto her family life as well. Having chosen the political life, she has opened herself up to valid criticism of her political ideology and political activities. No argument there. But what angers me are the jokes about and the ad hominem attacks on her looks, her clothes, her family, her manner of speaking, ad nauseum. It seems that everything about her is fair game to many in our political world. I’ve given up on the males who do this. Their political hatred seems to know no bounds. As a man, I will tell you that men can often be outright asses with regard to behavior. But, it is the women who concern me more. Even if you profoundly disagree with Palin’s conservative political views and with this or that legitimate political activity in which she engages, how can you possibly justify so blithely knocking down a sister who is doing exactly what was called for by those women who started the new wave of women’s liberation in the mid-20th century? She is a woman who has entered the arena, who stands on her own two feet, who says what she wants to say, and let’s no one of the male species dominate or deter her. So, please make up your minds. Either you want women to be free to do what Palin is doing as part of the liberty of women in this society or you are willing to knock down a part of your now free sisterhood just because you disagree on specific political issues. Your call.

  8. Pat.Herve

    my opting out of buying health insurance that I have a material effect upon the cost of healthcare – until the one without coverage gets into a severe accident, or illness, and then wants me to cover the bill through various government programs. Or, then wants into an insurance plan to get coverage.

    It is not right when a person goes through life, paying for health insurance, and then through no fault of their own, finds themselves without insurance at the time of their lives when they need it most. Our healthcare system needs to be revamped – and has needed to be revamped (just like social security) – but our politicians do not have the cajones to address the issue head on like it should be. The R’s like the status quo, and proposed no changes during the Bush terms (unless you consider the unfunded Medicare Part D, which they were all on the bandwagon for). In the mean time, the costs of the plans have sky rocketed about all other costs, and there is no cap in sight.

    In regards to Sarah Palin – yes, she has accomplished getting elected into office – but I do not regard her as intelligent. It is easy to govern a state that gets $1.83 for every Federal tax dollar, and earns a royalty on all the oil produced. She says no to programs now, but when she was Mayor – she hired the first federal lobbyist for Wasilla, and continued the lobby for the bridge to nowhere – because it was Federal (our) money that she was spending.

  9. So one side fears Palin and the other side fears Obama….That doesn’t sound too good.

    I actually meant those in Alaska who know her and have worked for her are afraid to talk.

  10. Wolverine

    Spending “Federal (our) money” in a state is unusual? I just came up the Robert Byrd Appalachian Highway in West Virginia. Nice. Well built. Scenic. Convenient. Very little traffic. They’ve even fixed it now so you don’t have to wind your way through Parkersburg from Belpre, Ohio. Fancy beltway and bridge from west of Belpre to the US 50/I-77 junction. I think I paid for it.

  11. Censored bybvbl

    Wolverine, perhaps men should be asked why they support Sarah Palin. My guess is that she’s an attractive woman who winks. Most women I know want more from their candidates. I don’t owe her any allegiance as a “sister”. To think so is condescending. I expect intelligence, perseverance, a wide range of knowledge, a mature manner in my choice of candidates. Merely because Palin and I share a gender is not enough. Political views matter!!! I would find a male with her views and experience equally unqualified.

    Had John McCain not chosen her for a running mate, would anyone have even thought of her for higher office? (Ha ha – I’m aware that TC had a thread about how hot she was before McCain chose her as a running mate.) She couldn’t even finish her term as governor of Alaska. Her success is more a sign of our reality show/celebrity-driven culture and less a sign of her political acumen.

    Have men always supported male candidates just because of their gender? Why should women support Palin because of hers? I didn’t support Hillary Clinton in the primaries but I could support her as VP. She’s a smarter, more qualified woman. I value education, doggedness in pursuing skills, and experience in foreign affairs or governing unlike many wingnuts who scream about “elites”. The country is absolutely filled with small town political hacks which I would want nowhere near our Executive or Legislative branch of government. When the Tea Party manages to elect a dozen or so of them to office next year, we’ll get a front row seat to the side show.

  12. Morris Davis

    The “Appalachian Highway?” Isn’t that where South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford went hiking last summer? I believe he said he didn’t encounter much traffic on it either and as I recall he paid for it too.

    There’s a difference in not having the opportunity to attend Harvard or Yale and not having the qualifications to attend Harvard or Yale (I’m in the latter category). And that’s not to diminish the academic rigor at Hawaii Pacific University, Northern Idaho College, the University of Idaho, Matanuska-Susitna College, and then the University of Idaho, again, or an undergraduate degree in journalism.

  13. Trail, Moe, Trail. One is on foot, the other is on tires. :mrgreen:

  14. Wolverine

    Censored — You have read this all wrong. I did NOT advocate that women should be supporting Palin politically because of her gender. At various points in that post I stated that opposing her for ideological or political reasons was perfectly legit. What I am railing against is far too many extraneous attempts to kneecap someone like Palin based on something other than ideological or political differences. I believe the current phrase is “the politics of personal destruction.” I also believe that this tactic has gotten completely out of hand on both sides of the aisle. Quite frankly, the whole political scene involving this type of underhanded tactic has thoroughly disgusted me in a large number of instances. Sadly, it seems like the tactic is becoming endemic. Putting political and ideological differences completely aside, my mystification comes from seeing women especially participate in this sort of thing against an individual who is doing the very thing that the women’s liberation movement sought to bring about during their long campaign for gender equality. Disputing Palin’s views and even advocating that she has not reached one’s standards for higher political office are perfectly valid arguments for which I do not fault anyone. Participating in the lower echelon of gratuitous attacks on personal, non-political characteristics and especially in snide slams at her family is, in my opinion, beyond the pale. Given the struggle by American women to raise the tide for all women in America, it surprises me much when some of them participate in the kneecapping game against a woman who is trying to ride that tide in just the way that the liberation movement envisioned as the desired outcome of their struggle. And, even if a woman does not participate in this tactic, I often wonder why she would not object when someone else practices it, regardless of politics. To put it bluntly, that really disappoints me.

  15. Wolverine, she ought to hire you. that was a very nice essay. But, I didn’t hear anything about her ideas or her breadth and depth of knowledge and I don’t think I will. I think she is a person whom you admire but can’t list what qualifies her for national office.

    Apparently you didn’t hear how people talked about Hillary when she was running for office. I sat here night after night shaking my head, wondering why, in 2008, women were being subjected to the type of criticism that Hillary was. I thought for a while I was the only person noticing it. Women and men alike were doing the same thing. I can’t tell you how many Hillary (chicken) thigh jokes people sent me.

    However, Censored is right. There is no automatic sisterhood. The winking, you betcha’s and the reliance sound bytes offends me with Palin. It covers up lack of depth. I expect women to be able to show a little more than good looks and some leg. (and Sarah Palin is a very attractive woman. I have never noticed her clothes and her voice to me is like nails on a chalk board. Hillary’s is a little better but not a whole lot.)

    I feel much more affinity towards Hillary. I don’t think she was to the manor born. She was smart and middle class and did well for herself. She certainly did not marry into wealth. In fact, her husband had pulled himself up by the boot straps.

    She and I both attended east coast womens colleges. She excelled academically. She is exceptionally intelligent, like her husband. I did not. I drank beer and played a lot of bridge. Perhaps I see her as what I would have liked to have been.

    Perhaps it is at this point I should ask what is the difference in Hillary and Sarah? I see light years. I would want to be Hillary. I wouldn’t want to be Sarah. Hillary is 20 years older and probably paid a lot more dues. Yet Palin comes out as the protector of Mama Grizzlies. Hillary isn’t folksy. It isn’t her political styple I don’t believe Palin is either. She plays it to cover up what she doesn’t seem to know.

    I also believe unfair things have been said about both women.

    @Moe, I am in the latter category also.

  16. Wolverine

    Censored — Let me add one more thing of more direct interest to this particular blog. That would be our own Elena. She meets the definition of an activist. She is an example of someone who has left hearth and home on frequent occasions to involve herself in issues of local political import and disputation. She has stepped up and has had an influence. Now, if I were to sit down with Elena and go down a long list of political issues, we would probably wind up arguing opposing viewpoints until the cows came home. But what really enrages me are some of the nasties I have seen hurled at her by various opponents, including personal references that ought to make a gentleman blush even to think them. That just burns the crap out of me, so it is not just Palin of whom I am speaking. The whole scene in which the politics of personal destruction are allowed to get in the way of reasoned political debate is turning me off six ways to Sunday.

  17. I agree with you Wolverine. We ought to be able to express why we like and don’t like a person, political or otherwise, without getting personal and hateful. And in this political climate its difficult rise above the fray.

    ps I have an activist past also…so I know of what you speak. It just isn’t part of my blog world. I do enough damage with that without importing other things.

    Reading history, people weren’t a bit better in other centuries. If nothing else, they were worse.

    Everything is relative. I was a Hillary supporter. I think I wanted Bill back actually. 😉

  18. Wolverine, I have been pondering the Sarah issue and I know what it was that initially turned me off. I knew nothing about her. I had never heard of the woman. I guess TV showed clips of her speeches when her candidacy was first announced…and it was the jabbing and poking fun at those ‘not like us’ mentality that I heard. That is the stuff that burns me up.

    And that is what I like, or used to like about McCain. He pretty much stuck to issues and he didn’t get in to all that ‘not like us’ mentality. He was respectful and didn’t mimick and belittle with sound bytes.

    I really had to take it back to the beginning to figure out why it is I really don’t like her. I don’t wish harm on her or her family. I just really do not want anything to do with her as a politician. She represents almost everything I dislike, whereas someone like McCain I used to have respect for. Its one of those give a little, get a little.

    Ex: telepromptor on her hand…she is belittling Obama (and every other president). No president has time to sit around memorizing speeches. And with instant replay and and 24/7 cable, its easy enough to say something the hounds will fall on. Imagine if there was no telepromptor.

    2 ex: Hopie changie thing–belittling.

  19. Pat.Herve

    what I am getting at, it that you should not be accepting Federal dollars (and lobbying for more) on the one hand, and complain about Federal spending on the other – you cannot have it both ways. I could complain about Murtha, Byrd, or a host many other officials, but they proudly wore their bacon button for projects they spear headed. The bridge to nowhere is one very fine example. I cast myself as being fiscally prudent both with my own money, and yours (yes, I do spend some of your money for you 😉 )

  20. I was just talking about WV roads last week. I remember the bad old days when people going anywhere west of Virginia had to travel through W-by God-VA. They moaned, groaned, bitched and carried on because it took them forever.

    I am all in favor of the West VA road system making travel through that state not only faster but safer. I don’t begrudge them one nickel of money that went into that road system. They were the step child for years. It beats crawling your way, as a traveler, over one trecherous mountain road after another. And if it makes it nicer for the residents, so be it.

    Want to reduce spending? Do away with a few wars. Give me decent roads. Iraq sickens me.

  21. Censored bybvbl

    Given the struggle by American women to raise the tide for all women in America, it surprises me much when some of them participate in the kneecapping game against a woman who is trying to ride that tide in just the way that the liberation movement envisioned as the desired outcome of their struggle.

    Wolverine, I’m probably close to your age. I can tell you that women wanted to judged on their ability to do the job – not on their appearance or willingingness to put up with their male bosses’ propositions. Hillary Clinton is an example of a capable, smart woman who put in the time to attain a good education. She’s knowledgeable about a variety of issues and isn’t limited to superficial “talking points”.

    Sarah Palin, on the other hand, seems to have taken a lot of short cuts – skipping around to a lot of smaller colleges, quitting before her term expired, answering questions with glib sound bites. She relies on her physical attractiveness and vapid mottos for the masses. I don’t think women of the Sixties were striving to be Sarah Palins. Sarah Palin, IMO, is a throwback to the bad old days when women had to rely on their ability to charm their way into a position. If she stopped wearing make-up, wore pant suits, chopped about eight inches off her hair, became educated, and stopped winking, many men that support her now would just call her a “bitch” for being nervy enough to state those “Mama Grizzly” opinions.

    She’s good as an entertainer in much the same way as Glen Beck is. Do you find Glen Beck qualified to be Prez or VP?

  22. Censored, you just made some really excellent points regarding women in the 60s. Last night when I was thinking about all this, there were some things I just couldn’t articulate…I felt them but no words came. No educated women in the 60’s wanted to turn out like Sarah Palin, you are right.

    You are also right about what men would think. She would be just another ‘testy broad.’ Remember when Geraldine Ferraro ran as VP? I believe the men referred to her as Fritz and Tits. She was a very intelligent woman with short hair and who didn’t wink. I don’t remember a darn thing about her anatomy. I think the ‘Tits” was simply because she was female. I rest my case.

  23. George S. Harris

    @marinm
    OK marinm–when you turn 65, the first thing you do is burn your Medicare card–don’t take Medicare–it is a government sponsored program. Second–when you reach the age for Social Security–don’t tkae it–it’s a government sponsored program. Bot are going to want personal information from you, but I recommend that you not cooperate–show them a thing or two. Oh, and maybe consider not paying your federal or state income taxes–government programs taking your money and giving it to someone else. But I also recommend you keep some bandaids around to patch up where you have cut off your nose to spite your face.

  24. Slowpoke Rodriguez

    So, anyone going to see “Machete” this weekend?

  25. marinm

    Censored, Beck and Palin aren’t running for office. They’re is more money and power to be had by being kingmakers than being the king.

    Is Palin suited for office? Yes. If she chose to run I’d probably vote for her. Mr. Beck would not get my vote (as of right now) but he’s great entertainment and forces the left to focus on him rather than the issues at hand. He serves as a great decoy – a lightning rod – that keeps the Administration off message and helps to win the hearts and minds of those on the fence.

  26. marinm

    George, I find it amusing that you make jokes and not attack the foundation of my arguement. I assume you concede the point that I’m right. Thank you.

    WRT Social Security and all those social programs that I don’t support but still pay for. At retirement age I will collect that federal check. I’ve paid into the system so it makes no sense to get that money back. I ‘perform my civic duty’ by paying my taxes every year. I also take every deduction that I legally can to lower my tax burden.

    I have no issue with the government collecting taxes. I do have an issue with the manner in which they do so (discriminatory) and the rate in which they spend that money. As a citizen I have that right and will voice it anytime I wish to do so.

    George, do you have ANYTHING constructive to bring to this discussion other than bandaids and black helo’s?

  27. Censored bybvbl

    M-h, for the younger posters who didn’t experience the Sixties (or Seventies) as young adults, I’d suggest watching “Mad Men” as an eye-opener for just how bad gender discrimination was. One could easily substitute small town/big city offices, universities, etc. for Mad Ave. and have much the same atmosphere.

  28. Is it on Netflix? I don’t think I have ever seen it.

  29. Marin, I think George is making a point. He has been there and done that. He also served his country for 37 years. Not many can make that claim.

  30. Censored bybvbl

    It’s a tv series on AMC. They’re on season four now. Maybe the earlier shows are on Netflix.

  31. Marin, also I would say YET, they aren’t running for office. I think both might eventually.

    Both have big egos that can be stroked.

    I just don’t want to hear anything else about Obama being the annointed one. That sort of made me sick in the first place.

  32. punchak

    Marinm at 10:00

    You would vote for Palin for the presidency, you say.

    Have you tried to imagine Palin sitting at the negotiating table with, say, Netanyahu or Karzai or, heaven forbid, Putin. Or any other world leader for that matter.

    I can’t imagine her discussing international issues on any level that counts. Can you?

  33. marinm

    Punchak, yes. Yes, she can.

    She won’t run for elected office again. I think she’s found the niche that she wants to be in.

  34. Marin, savor these words…I won’t say them often. I sure as hell hope you are right. 😉

    Punchak, I agree with you.

  35. Wolverine

    Well, Moon, I have never thought that joshing a POTUS about his teleprompter comes anywhere near referring to a whole swath of the American people as clinging to their Bibles and guns. As a son of the Heartland, I find nothing unusual in the fact that so many respond positively to Palin’s “not like us” tactic. As far as I can see, it is payback time for a half century of the MSM, privileged academe, and certain politicians looking down their collective noses at many Americans and then faking it when election time comes. The times they are a changing. I saw that often on my recent 3000 mile road trip through the Heartland. I don’t know why it is so hard to understand it. I often see on this blog criticisms of Glen Beck and Sean Hannity and others and such things as that video in which a reporter was interviewing attendees at the Beck rally last weekend who may not be as vocally glib as the rest of us. Instead of focusing criticism on Beck and Hannity and the others, you all should start asking yourselves why these people are able to draw such large radio and TV audiences, why so many take the time and make the effort to show up for the Beck rally and others, and why Palin’s “not like us” tactic resonates in the Heartland. You guys are looking at the trees and completely missing the forest here.

  36. That would be us, out of touch.

    I have a bible and a gun but somehow that isn’t my only motivation when I go to the polls. I saw nothing wrong with the president’s remarks, in context regarding the two items. He was speaking of a mindset.

    Pay back time? What on earth did the heartland people think Dan Quayle was? Holy Hell, if that wasn’t payback, I don’t know what would be. Just shoot me with that gun and say a few words over me with that bible.

    As for humble beginnings and folksy, perhaps these people who resent priviledged class at the helm might have appreciated Bill Clinton a little more had they not joined up with some sort of right wing conspiracy to unseat him. The problem was, it was no conspiracy. It was pretty open and shut. They started in on him and his appointees before he was ever inaugurated. I guess because he was a Democrat.

    Truman, Eisenhower, Ford, Reagan, Clinton, Carter, Obama all came from middle class backgrounds–of those, only Carter missed the heartland geographical location. Yes, Kennedy and the Bushes were all silver spoon people. There appears to be some sort of resentment of people who have the brains to go to well established or Ivy League schools.

  37. part 2—out of touch

    We have seen what 8 years of Republican rule does. A solid economy in the 90s jumped to 6 trillion in debt and near financial collapse by 2008. Peace became not one war but 2. Education was snatched from local hands and became an 8 thousand armed octopus that redirected how kids were taught and education money was spent. And an unfunded huge government prescription program sprang to life while no one blinked. If you read the Pew Center carefully, some mighty serious impressive illegal immigration happened from 2000-2006.

    Now why would I want to do that all over again? Enough is enough. I have no idea what Beck thought of all that. He was probably in some alcohol induced trance during the Bush years. I wish *I* had been. Sean Hannity is just a mean son of a bitch. I have heard his vitriol for years. I will continue to rail against people like that and stick to my good old boys like redneck Bubba who at least brought what I consider good things to the country–starting with peace and prosperity.

    I don’t mind if people show up for a Beck rally. There are all sorts of rallys for things all the time. I also gave a fair amount of attention to the Beck rally. That isn’t a symptom of not getting it. That is a symptom of getting it and not thinking it is a sign of good thing to come.

    Sorryk, I think Sarah Palin just one big uninformed soundbyte on steroids. I hope Marin is right and she continues padding her pockets making stump speeches. I don’t have to listen. If she is elected, and I don’t discount that she might be, then I might have to do more than listen.

    As to why ‘these people are able to draw such large radio and TV audiences,’ my guess would be they didn’t feel things got screwed enough 2000-2008 so they want another few years to finish the job off. All kidding aside…my guess is fear if I had to sum it all up. There have been intense efforts the past 30 or so years to maniputate through the media. There are some excellent examples of brilliant people grabbing the reins and leading and influencing others. Those people have much to gain. Some lead, some follow. Lots of followers out there, living on sound bites and having their fears stoked. Scared people are dangerous people.

  38. Slowpoke Rodriguez

    punchak :
    Marinm at 10:00
    You would vote for Palin for the presidency, you say.
    Have you tried to imagine Palin sitting at the negotiating table with, say, Netanyahu or Karzai or, heaven forbid, Putin. Or any other world leader for that matter.
    I can’t imagine her discussing international issues on any level that counts. Can you?

    Much less scary than Obama, the community organizer, interfacing with these world leaders. You just KNOW what Putin thinks of Obama. Every time Putin even THINKS of Obama he thinks “Oh, how the mighty have fallen!”

  39. Slowpoke Rodriguez

    Moon-howler :
    Marin, I think George is making a point. He has been there and done that. He also served his country for 37 years. Not many can make that claim.

    Yeah, John McCain served his country well, too. Doesn’t make him wise, just brave.

  40. @ Slow, how disrespectful. Who cares what Putin think and also, I doubt that you have an inside track to his mind.

    John McCain is an incredibly brave person, regardless of politcs. He had a chance to be released and he stayed with the others. He obviously isn’t always wise. Otherwise he would not have chosen Palin as a running mate.

  41. Wolverine

    Gosh, Moon, for awhile there I thought we had moved from the personal stuff to a good debate over political policies. Then comes the jumping all over Palin, Hannity, and Beck again. Well, you guys can proceed at your own peril. But please understand that the Heartland does not resent the privileged class exercising power in a representative republic — only many of those “elites” in the contemporary political milieu. When you consistently ignore the wishes of the people as expressed in poll after poll by polling organizations from both sides of the aisle, you will eventually pay a price. You can see that already in the comparative ratings of news organizations. Fox News rolls on and on while their competitors flounder around trying to figure out why they just cannot seem to cut the mustard with the national audience.

  42. Elena

    What was it that Bush did that made so many people turn against him? Even conservatives railed against him? Was it the billions, probably trillions he spent on an unfunded war in a country we had no business being in (Iraq)? Fox news has done more damage to this country than any one entity. They export lies and propoganda. Palin says stupid dangerous statements like “death panels” and you think she is not fair game to wonder at her ability to think comprehensively and NOT in soundbites?

  43. Wolverine, those are people who are a driving force behind politics today. It is impossible to discuss politics without at least bringing in Beck and Palin.

    My worse fear is living in a country where those two are calling the shots, whether elected or otherwise.

    I realize you like them Wolverine but you have to understand that even to centrists, they are seen as absolutely toxin. And a reminder, I did not bring up Hannity. Polls are snapshots and there are a whole bunch of people out there who you are ignoring. I don’t care if 60% of the US people hate Obama and every Democratic member of Congress and the other 40% like him and them. That’s still 120 million people who supported them. Who ignores 120 million people?

    Actually, I thought we were having a politial discussion. Now I see I was being gamed.

  44. Elena

    To date, I am NOT impressed with Obama’s unwillingness to be a strong voice of leadership, like he was while campaigning, but he won HANDILY in the 2008 election, what exactly does poll after poll say about him? He has done EXACTLY what he ran on…healthcare, iraq, afganastan, financial reform, etc. What I don’t like is that he hasn’t really done the job of selling the policies or remained firm on any one issue to the bitter end.

    I recall the last two elections being contigent upon ONE state in the electoral college, Obama won with no question. The visceral hatred expressed towards Obama, from the moment he won is not unlike Bill Clinton, only much worse. Does anyone remember the millions wasted by Republicans for every investigation? Did Democrats, even in power, once set up a private investigation into FISA, Torture, Iraq, Valerie Plame scandal, the medicare actuary being threatened of losing his job, judges being fired……….NO. Forget a sex scandal, these were issues that ACTUALLY affected America. The Democrats had no desire to drag the country through trial after trial because too many important issues needed to be addressed.

    Oh wait, I forgot my all-time favorite, wag the dog, you know that accusation that Clinton ordered a bomb strike on a factory in Pakistan. Republicans were so obsessed/fixated on getting Clinton on anything, they seemed disinterested in what was happening on the terrorism front.

  45. Slowpoke Rodriguez

    Moon-howler :
    @ Slow, how disrespectful. Who cares what Putin think and also, I doubt that you have an inside track to his mind.
    John McCain is an incredibly brave person, regardless of politcs. He had a chance to be released and he stayed with the others. He obviously isn’t always wise. Otherwise he would not have chosen Palin as a running mate.

    Funny, I thought I said McCain was brave. Disrespectful? To Obama? A man has to earn respect.

  46. Just heard Beck say on Fox News “I’m not a journalist.”

    Might be an older interview, but I found that interesting.,

  47. He’s talking about his rally and is in preacher mode. Some of it is good–be your highest self, etc. etc. I am not sure what he thinks is a higher self, however. Seems to be talking only about Christianity.

    (Sorry for bad typos. I’m not home–which is why I am hearing Beck–and I don’t have my glasses.)

  48. @slow, then you and the Dixie Chicks have much in common.

    I like their music but they aren’t particularly wise.

  49. Now he is saying Obama isn’t racist as he admits to saying before because he didn’t understand at the time Obama was really endorsing liberation theology–oppressor and victim mentality. He says that theology is Marxism disguised as religion and that the Catholic Pope has said it as well.

    “I have a big fat mouth sometimes,” Beck says at another point.

    Boy, he’s a barrell full of contradictions and weirdisms and stats with no sources.

  50. Beck and Palin are both political phenomena. No political discussion is currently possible without them. They are drawing a crowd.

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