From Netsafe Kids:
WHAT IS PORNOGRAPHY?
“I shall not today attempt further to define [obscenity]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it….”
That famous statement, uttered by the late Justice Potter Stewart in 1973 when faced with a case involving obscenity, illustrates the difficulty of trying to determine what constitutes obscene or pornographic content. The term “pornography” has no well-defined meaning, certainly no legal definition. And if a Supreme Court justice had trouble defining the nature of sexually explicit material, how easy is it for the rest of us—each of whom looks at the world in a different way? Lack of consensus is one reason the subject of pornography is such a contentious legal issue.
Pornography is a word thrown about all too easily. We call lots of things ‘porn’ or pornography when we really don’t mean it. We joke a lot about porn. Obviously the XXX girlie shows are porn, aren’t they? Anything that says XXX has to be porn and it has been my experience, if it has even one X, it is.
I realized last week that people have very different ideas about what constitutes pornography. A new adult boutique will be opening in the City of Manassas in the near future and the townspeople are beside themselves. I am asking what’s the big deal? Another such shop exists on route 28 that has been in business for at least 20 years. People don’t like the location of the new kid on the block, it seems. Not in the City of Manassas! So do we want to take what we perceive as porn and brush it under the rug? Do we want it far away so we can sneak into the store and buy something we wouldn’t want our mothers to know about and not be seen by our friends and neighbors?
Is Old Town Manassas the crown jewel where there are no secrets? Young people (under 40) seem to have a lot easier time simply discussing things like sex toys and real fancy erotic underwear much easier than those of us who are post 40. Yet, some of the people hollering the loudest are not in the post 40 demographic.
The best example I can come up with when someone asks what is porn would be the John Bobbitt flick he made after he was sliced and diced. Someone got Mr. Howler an advanced copy and he was all proud of himself for getting the coveted video. I lasted maybe all of 30 seconds before I left the room. Mr. Howler, tough guy that he is, was even grossed out and he didn’t last more than 5 minutes. So is porn stuff that grosses us out? Is it always sexual? How do we decide what ‘community standards’ are? Is the issue of porn on a collision course with 1st amendment rights?
Before we can decide what kind of shops we want to condone or condemn , it seems sensible to clarify what we really consider pornographic, obscene or indecent. In doing so, we have to realize that our neighbors probably won’t come up with the same set of attributes.
If it involves children or is nonconsensual in any way in the production of it, then it is rightfully outlawed. Otherwise, keep it out of the kiddies’ view, keep the window displays tasteful, and let adults be adults and let the market do its magic.
The community standards of the City of Manassas already allow two shops with similar items. Otherwise, I agree with with Emma – no children and nothing nonconsensual.
What Emma said.
The business leaders of Savannah, Georgia didn’t like when reporter/writer John Berendt wrote “Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil,” a kind of blended non-fiction book and novel that detailed the city and its people and their attitudes about race and sexuality during the 1980s. It became a New York Times best seller, and the tourists started pouring in, only to find out there wasn’t much to see related to what was in the book, and no directions to the Bird Girl statue.
Now the book, the author and the movie directed by Clint Eastwood have been embraced by the business leaders of Savannah because they know it is a cash cow. The book is sold everywhere. The Bird Girl statue has been moved to a museum. And they offer “Midnight” tours.
Here’s a better description from a Savannah website:
Despite all of the monumental preservation and restoration efforts in the historic district, Savannah remained relatively unknown until 1994 when a new book was published. Almost overnight, this long neglected city became one of the hottest tourist destinations in the U.S. John Berendt’s bestselling book, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, fascinated readers and revealed an intimate and mysterious side of Savannah that everyone wanted to experience for themselves.
While the book focuses on the murder trial of Jim Williams, a prominent antiques dealer, it draws attention to some of Savannah’s more unusual characters and social traditions. The book was made into a movie, directed by Clint Eastwood, and filmed in Savannah. It is doubtful that there has ever been another book with a greater impact on an American City. Tourists from all over the world flock to Savannah to see all the places mentioned in “The Book” and what better way than one of the Savannah’s Midnight “Book” Tours.
Tell me sex appeal doesn’t sell.
Another story. My first husband, Martin and I, were Girl Scout leaders, and back in the 90s we took the troop — 19 4th – 6th graders — up to Harpers Ferry, WVa where we camped in treehouses, walked the Appalachian Trail, toured the local museum and walked the lantern tour of the streets and church graveyard (during a lightening show, no less) while the guide told us scary tales of the girl who stepped in front of a train and hogs alley (you don’t want to know what happened there).
But the highlight of the trip was this little shop on the main street where you could get dressed up in period costumes. It was expensive, but we worked out a deal where they could each get dressed up and get their photos taken for $5 each. The petticoats were flying! I was so busy helping them in the dressing area, I didn’t see the photos that were taken until later — the costumes were fine, it’s that they were posing with guns, money bags of money whiskey bottles! But I don’t recall a single complaint from a parent after we got home. It was all in good fun.
My views:
1. I agree with Emma.
2. I don’t consider the shop porn per se unless they are selling media of specific acts (which, correct me if I am wrong, they are intending to do). I consider it in VERY poor taste for the historic location and a bad influence for kids and some adults. I also think these stores attract predators.
3. I am not a prude. My kids have taken sex ed classes, and we openly talk about sex. However, I am opposed to my kids thinking sex for sale is okay. Shops like these are openly selling sex.
4. Toys are fine so long as they stay in the bedroom and out of the eye of the mainstream. Sex should be a bit more private unless we are going to become and all-nude society.
5. What you do in the bedroom under Emma’s terms is none of my businesses unless you are MAKING it a business.
6. Stop influencing girls and women by advertising that they need to buy things to be sexual creatures and that their primary goal is to be sexual beings. Until we as women reject these notions, we will continue to be slaves to our own sexuality.
7. Cindy, great point! Do we want to be the center of another national controversy and now, instead of drawing in history interested tourists, drawing tourists more interested in the Bobbit case and KK’s?
@cindy b
I would have complained, Cindy or at least had a good talking with my kids. Maybe I AM a prude.
@Emma
I think I misunderstood Emma. Sorry. I disagree, as you can see by my comments. I do agree that sexual conduct should be consensual and not involve kids. I also think beating each other up for fun isn’t acceptable. I stopped exploring porn when I saw a lady covered in bruises starring in a film.
Okay, check out another woman-owned business in Old Town Manassas. It’s all about women feeling good about themselves. http://www.magnificentbellydance.com/
These women are awesome, they’ve danced in the Christmas Parade (and will again in December), performed at the Prince William County Fair, even done a workshop for women and girls at our church that we called “Biblical Belly Dance.” It was so popular, we may do it again this coming year. They offer Haflas – dance parties for women — from time to time.
How would Christian conservatives view this business, which has been in Old Town Manassas for years?
@cindy b
Oh I know about them! That’s a different thing all together, I think. I consider that culture, exercise and beauty, not selling sex. And belly dancers of all size and shape can celebrate being female-. It’s kind of like the goddess image, not the Cosmopolitan/Sex in the City image. Do you see what I mean? There’s nothing wrong with being attractive or sexy. It’s what you do with it.
I’m not a Christian conservative, so I don’t know what they would think.
@cindy b
One more thing–these ladies aren’t stripping. Just thought I would throw that in.
Pink–are you saying that it is ok for women to use erotic materials as long as they go to the sleezy side of town to buy them? Or use ‘pervertables?’ (common every day items used as …well…whatever)
I am going to correct you and say that you are wrong ASSuming that KK Temptations is going to be ‘showing media of specific acts.’ We don’t know exactly what their videos will be. I seriously doubt if they will be titles involving gang rape or sadistic torture.
Secondly, why do you think that ‘stores like that’ attract sexual preditors? Don’t you think if a sexual preditor came by, the ladies of KK would call the cops? How about that 7-11 up the street at the GATEWAY of old town? Is that appropriate? There are a lot of sexual preditors and drug addicts up there…many of them cutting deals and shooting up. How about the Olde Town Inn, also in historic Manassas. Ahem ahem ahem……lots of nooners going on there. In fact, it used to be a favorite gathering place of some of the stepper outters of a local school system that shall go unnamed.
Shall I go on?
Why is going into a shop and making purchases in bad taste? Not seeing it here. Should we shut down Vickie S’s joint at the mall? You can see underwear from miles across that end of the mall.
If KK Temptations is going to be hanging french ticklers and vibrators from the front window and setting up a front window wide screen with an old classic, Deep Throat rolling, perhaps the pure of heart, mind and soul have a point. However, I have no indication that is going to happen.
I agree with Cindy, Emma and Censored.
Seriously, Pinko, you are sounding like its ok as long as no one sees you go buy it. I am just not comfortable with that. Should I take you off the Ladies of Moonhowlings outting we are planning? 🙂
Anything can be porn, if it is used to titillate. The question is, what is acceptable and how should it be distributed? One of the in jokes of the gun blogger world is showing pics of guns and calling it “gun porn” or “pron”. I’ve also seen clips and pics of combat that are described as war porn, and some of it is used as such. No, not as a sexual thing, but, as something pleasurable to look at.
Then again, in some circles, commonplace things can be used as porn.
So, apparently, this store may not fit into the locales environment. Will it be presented in a discreet manner or have flashing XXX neon signs? There’s a family run shop in the middle of a quiet commercial area surrounded by residences in Richmond that’s been run by a grandmother for years. No one cares. Now, if she had presented her quiet shop in a different manner, the objections would force her out of business.
I thought the Mel Gibson movie “The Passion of the Christ” was almost pornographic in its excessively graphic violence. I felt it was meant to titillate, in a way, more than to actually deepen anyone’s faith. The definition really can be in the eye of the beholder.
Emma, I agree with you about The Passion of Christ. I didn’t watch the entire thing for that reason. I am pretty much a wuss these days about stuff like that.
Cargo, I can almost agree with you except: I dont think everything that titallates is pornography. I think there has to be a sense of lewdess and vulgarity in the equation to make pornography. Pornography can also include violence for violence’s sake. I would take it upon myself to include what Emma said about children and nonconsensual sex. And I would also throw in people with animals. Maybe I am being a prude but I think that is porn.
I think the idea that anything that causes sexual desire must be pornography is wrong. That sends a message that the very thing that has kept human kind on this planet is perversion.
You all ought to send MPResident who posts on the dark screen a special invitation. He sounds like a soul brother to some of you all on this subject.
He is a rare find on the dark screen, which continally has its pitchforks sharpened. There are a few exceptions…but not many. Maybe the Advocator will set them all straight also. Does the reporter hear neighing in the background?
Who needs sex shops for titillation? Just go to the local mall. Boobs half-hanging out all over the place. Pants down around the lower buttocks crack. Fannies bulging out at the bottom hems of short shorts. Short waists only an inch or less from that famous vertical smile. We are becoming a walking sex shop.
Malls? Just google it. In fact there is a good chance that if it can be imagined, it can be found on the internet.
Me? Unless there’s peanut butter, tutus, and unicycles involved, I’m just not into it….
The above conversation illustrates the difference in women and men’s points of views.
You all know that what you have said isn’t what we are talking about? Just checking….
And I say this in all good humor and fun….
Speaking of pornography…I just hard Glenn Beck say something abouut something causing a party in his pants today..live tv. Well I recorded it because I was out. But that’s…gross….
The imagery ..Beck …and that expression…..ewwwwwwwwwwww
I vote for that being said by him on tv as big time porno,
@Moon-howler
Whew, lots of questions! Okay. Let’s see if I can help you out.
1. Women and men can use whatever they want from stores that sell that kind of stuff. I just don’t think those stores should be in historic districts or next to a Center for the Arts (or a school or a…) where there are loads of kids. You don’t have to have the store in a slum, but shops like that can MAKE a place turn slummy because you don’t just get bored soccer moms in there. I actually think those silly home parties are better than the stores–they are usually private and safe. And if you must have a sex toy, you can always go online and order one from the privacy of your…bathroom?
2. I never said KK would sell S&M material. I said I can’t watch porn because of what I have seen. A majority of women who act in porn have been abused, are runaways, have drug problems or have mental illness (please don’t make me find the stats on that again–I’ve just cleaned up my cache and I don’t want any more Viagra ads in my mailbox). I just can’t buy into people being abused. However, back to the topic, most movies sold in “toy” stores like KK’s are a little more than rated “R.” Otherwise, customers wouldn’t bother shopping–they would only have to turn on HBO…or CBS or FOX. And don’t try to tell me there won’t be nudy playing cards there at KK. (If there are, you might want to bring some to the MH girl party.)
3. It’s not like you can look at someone and say, necessarily, “Hey. That’s a predator, better call the cops.” Predators are predators because they are sneaky. They aren’t all ripping off their clothing and running around town. And don’t you think porn next to a place loaded with kids is like putting flypaper by an open window, especially when there isn’t the kind of security you have in a school? If someone opened a “toy” shop near my kids’ school, I would be having a similar fit, and I bet other parents would be, too.
4. Again, the shop is tasteless because of where it is going to be located.
Wolverine is right on about malls. Victoria Secret and Spencer’s Gifts…you can’t get away from the sale of sex. Yes, it’s a part of our culture, but it’s wrapped up in commerce and other negative ideas including the idea that women should spend money to be sex objects and that it’s okay to be objectified. And I don’t want any of that in a place that’s supposed to be family friendly. It doesn’t matter what is hanging in the window–everyone and her great aunt will know what “that place” is selling, and you know the kids are going to go in there. Hell, I would have if I were a kid!
Sex! Sex! EVERYWHERE!
It has to stop.
LOL! Emma.
Hope to see you at MH’s girl party.
@ Pinko–I dislike adult videos for the same reasons you do. I don’t like the exploitation of women. I know those at the top of the game make a lot of money. However, there are a whole lot of women not at the top who are abused and used and degraded.
I also get grossed out fairly easily. 30 seconds of John Bobbitt scarred me for life.
I don’t think people should have to get erotica from magazines. I would rather my kid walk past kk temp than past many of the bars in Old Town. Don’t get me wrong. I am not opposed to drinking at all. I don’t like drunks and druiken behavior.
I think you will see that these ladies are responsible shop keepers. I don’t think perverts will hang out there . I think you and others have some fear of the unknown and I think when you find out how harmless the store is, you will feel better about it. The owners will have every incentive to fit in with their fellow shop keepers. And as we expect food and beverage establishments to run responsible restaurants and bars, so should we expect these owners to exibit tasteful window dressing and displays visible to the public from the street. We also expect them to do business with adults.
After reading this thread, it is understandable why people cannot define pornography and why establishing community standards is so difficult. We each come to the table with our own ideas and pre-set notions.
@ pinko
We will know when the shop opens and the ladies of Moonhowlings will go in and greet them. 😉
Should we count you in, Pinko?
Nudie playing cards? but what if I want Mt Rushmore?????
Mt. Rushmore?
More nudes playing cards! More tutus and peanut butter! Pron!
What is pornography, huh? Well, I could give y’all a few links to some, if you’re curious!
There really isn’t much legally defining what pornography is. All of us seem to have our own ideas.
@slow no thank you. they cost money. 🙄
Actually, the porn business is in a downward spiral. Its too easy to find free porn on the internet.
Or so I’ve been told.
@Cargo,
I would say that is probably true, cargo. I just don’t like places being called porn shops generically. It just sounds too pejorative.
I suppose I am just too libertarian to think what’s going on in Manassas is kosher. When I was growing up too many people concerned themselves with everyone else’s business in that department. I have had a severe reaction against busy bodies and so has Mr. Howler. He was also raised Catholic so he has an even worse reaction to busy bodies than I do.
What ever happened to the right of someone to pursue earning a living, even to opening an adult store? If you don’t care for that kind of establishment, I would suggest you don’t frequent the store. As a corollary, if enough people chose not to shop there, it will probably go out of business.