From Fox Channel 5:
Kim Skokan, co-owner of KK’s Temptations and Steve Thomas, a Manassas resident who opposes the store, joined the FOX 5 News at 10 to debate this sex shop battle.
The debate has been ongoing for about a month. Tonight one of the leaders against KK Temptations, Manassas City resident Steve Thomas, squared off against co-owner Kim Skokan. Evaluate the debate for yourself. Was there a clear winner or did both ‘sides’ make their point?
As most people know, Moonhowlings has been supportive of KK’s Temptations. I was glad to see Mr. Thomas narrow his objections to the store to being only against adult videos rather than trying to condemn the entire shop. Having a specific objection makes a lot more sense than some of the other people I have talked to and those I heard making preposterous statements. Mr. Thomas also resisted calling their store a ‘porn shop.’
However, tomorrow KK”s Temptations opens officially. Stop by and tell the ladies hello.
UPDATE: The Ribbon Cutting Ceremony was held this morning. It is my understanding that none of the Manassas Council attended. Shame on them.
The Red Hat Society ladies were cute. Beth Parker sure pointed out the hypocrisy about the Candy Factory. Kiddie plays and Last of the Red Hot Lovers. Too funny.
I am totally sick of hearing the kid card dropped. What a bunch of bull crap. It has nothing to do with it. The woman who spoke up and said something to the effect that the husbands would all want the wives to do things they didn’t want to do spoke volumes. That’s what’s behind all of this. Some of the good women of Manassas don’t want to be asked to ……nahhhh Moon Howler. Don’t go there. It was obvious.
Maybe some of the good women just need to say no if something is suggested in the marital bedroom that they don’t want to do. Surely these ‘weaker vessels’ have heard of NO and realize that they aren’t owned by their husbands? Tell me it isn’t this basic.
One Dollar Movies on Center St sells those dvd’s and has for 18 or so years ( different owner now) but they do and it’s right down the street from the courthouse and All Saints Catholic Church. I have never heard a word in opposition about it.
http://www.manta.com/c/mm0z5zt/one-dollar-movie-video
Sells and rents
Maybe they just need to move it on down the street a few blocks and give KKs a rest for a while.
I was reluctant to expose this store since the beginning of the uproar as it could only harm it in retaliation ( in back peddling the debate) but somehow I think it is more about the adult novelties and proshtetics than the videos. I call BS 😉
@Censored bybvbl
Censored,
I do not think a “porn addiction” anymore harmful to a relationship OR the addicted individual, than any other addiction, but I am not sure what your inferred point is or what subjective measure if any you would like for me to assert.
As to your comments regarding the “paternalistic attitudes” of certain Republicans, I think you are making a gratuitous argument here by speaking in broad generalities. As I have said, I am a proud Republican, and would classify my self as a conservative. I could try to quantify that for you, by attaching another qualifier such as “Reagan” or “Goldwater” or “Rockefeller” to the front of it to refine my self-characterization, but really to what end? I’m not here to have a political debate, in spite of the numerous attempts here and elsewhere to make this a political issue. If you want the thumbnail of my views on the multitude of social issues included in your comments, we can have this on an open thread discussion, or better yet, over coffee. If you think my views that a civil society should protect women and children from exploitation, violence, etc. etc. as an “assault on women”, we REALLY need to talk. And, perhaps since by your own admission you have never seen an XXX-Rated film, your frame of reference might be a tad insufficient to assert that you find the conservative agenda more offensive. I could make an equally gratuitous argument that the liberal agenda is really about controlling the masses and making them beholden to a government ruled by the leftist elite intelligentsia, and will accomplish this through the destruction of traditional societal institutions, the most basic of which is the family. I could make the argument that these left-wing secular progressives will try to do this by undermining the individual families values by using the left-controlled public school system to inculcate our youth with leftist ideology. I could make the argument that the liberal media and liberally controlled pop-culture institutions are part of this conspiracy. I could, but I won’t, because framing the argument thus, would be just as gratuitous as your framing the issue of KK’s as a right-wing Republican assault on women.
I would not be interested in speculating how and why Delegate Miller became involved in this issue. Have you tried asking him? I became involved when a friend who is not an elected individual heard about it and asked me what my thoughts were regarding KK’s. You see, I have a bit of a reputation as an “involved and concerned citizen”, and friends often seek me out when trying to understand an issue. I picked up the phone, sent some emails, spoke with some other people, etc. etc. I was invited my another friend to a gathering of similarly minded people to discuss the issue. We decided to hold a rally/protest, what-have-you. I helped organize this, because I have previous experience doing so. The green balloons were meant to signify that something we find objectionable was being sold for money. As I said many times, there was never any intention to have this in front of the store, and your question regarding parking spaces is, well, puzzling.
I do not have any evidence that crime is increased in the areas surrounding KK’s and other stores. I believe that this is the purpose of the study commissioned by City Council. I do know that the owner of space next to KK’s has submitted a business application to operate a check cashing/payday loan/carry-out alcohol establishment. The owner has an ABC license and has requested that he be allowed to sell “singles”. If you think the timing of the application and the nature of the business proposed a mere coincidence and completely unrelated to recent events, I would say this may be being naive.
@cindy b
Cindy,
“Hi Steve. (I wear hearing aids, too — don’t you love it when an organist hits a high note?)”
Hi Cindy. For me it’s when my almost-four-year-old daughter and some of her friends get into that joy-inspired scream/squeal/whatever. I am sure you know the one. They hit a harmonic tone and pitch that if it were done near the ocean, would have aquatic mammals crashing into things, or trying to answer in reply. That one gets a feed-back loop going in my aids that forces me to pull them out..
Between Del. Miller’s urgent call to action and (according to the Manassas Observer), the mayor’s letter, I would call this politicized, only in that I never got either of these communications, and I’m a city resident. Did they go to political mailing lists?
I am coming to find out that if you talk to 50 people and ask how they found out about KK’s, you will get 50 different answers. I can swear and attest that I (Me, GOP Vice-Chairman) did not receive an email from Delegate Miller a letter from the Mayor, or any communication from any elected official, regarding KK’s. I was asked by a friend who, while a Republican, isn’t even a member of the local committee. My first communication with any elected official was initiated by me, to my friend Andy Harrover, and my question to him was, “what’s this about a porn shop on Battle Street?”. Believe it or not, I try to be on as few “lists” as possible. Really. I get WAY too much mail and email as it is. I figure if someone wants me to know something, and I would actually want to hear something from them, they have my cell, personal email, and are my facebook friend. Or, they can always knock on my door.
“Any time someone yells “fire” or another inflammatory word, you’ll get a rush of panicked, frightened people. Glad to hear you stepped in as peacemaker about the protest during the Fall Jubilee. More people need to step forward and take that role.”
Amen Cindy. I would love to relate some of my experiences in this regard. I stopped by the shop yesterday afternoon, and had a very nice conversation with the Skokans. I am writing a post/article on it, but have not decided on which venue I will publish it.
As to the $71K, I believe this is a good investment. Why? Because the whole way the KK’s opening unfolded showed that the City’s existing ordinances were not sufficient. Believe it or not, I think it could have been much, much worse. The Skokan family is trying to run what a reasonable person would call a “respectable, upscale” establishment. Whether or not it is, I believe is a subjective matter, to the individual’s taste. But you will get no argument from me that their intent is to run an upscale boutique. I say the situation could have been mush worse: Someone could have tried to open a strip-club, or a “swedish book store”, etc. etc., and the city would have been powerless to do anything about it. A Study, which supports a well written ordinance will have almost no impact on KK’s or any existing business. It will only set standards for future businesses.
“PS – that’s more than once I’ve heard the store next door to KK’s trumpeted as a potential negative secondary effect. Sounds like someone’s trying to build a record.”
I am concerned. This new establishment does bear watching. I’m sure the Skokan’s would be just as concerned as I if a business were operating next door with the sole purpose of selling take-out single-drinks, check cashing and payday-title loans next door. So two young ladies walk into KK’s at 10:30 PM to get items for a bachelorette party, and there’s a bunch of guys standing around with their “bumpers in a sack” having just cashed their paychecks. I am sure you can see where I am going with this. I ask, does this fit with the character of Old Town?
Red Dawn,
This is the very store I mentioned previously. It is in a strip-mall that is at the gateway to my neighborhood, next to my favorite gun store. I said I walked in there once to see if it might be an establishment in which I would do business. I noticed the swinging doors and asked the owner what was back there. He told me, and I turned and walked out. It is about the movies for me. Call BS all you want. I wouldn’t classify this strip-mall as a “Family Venue” and the City didn’t spend a sizable sum developing this place to make it attract tourists, especially those with children. Also, their sign says “$1 movies” and the posters are of recent/not-so-recent mainstream G, PG, PG-13 and R movies. If they had a sign that said “Adult Videos” or “XXX” and it wasn’t part of a Mexican Beer add, I would be protesting. Believe me.
“Hello, MH and all your readers! I have been reading the blog, and since Mr. Thomas alludes to the “secondary effect” next door to KK’s, and since I know what this ILLUSION of the effect is, I shall “spill the beans” as Censored asks
Mr. Beverage,
You may call it an “Illusion”. I call it a potentially negative secondary effect. Then again, I grew up in Boston, and couldn’t get to China Town for my Lo Mein without crossing through the Combat Zone. I was also stationed at Camp Lejeune in Jacksonville NC. and had to drive the road lined with Strip Clubs, Pawn Shops and Payday Lending places outside the gate, just to get home every night. I could point to many examples of real and potential negative secondary effects, I have witnessed personally, in areas where adult-oriented business concentrate. As Mr. Bendall said, The City cannot ban these undesirable, yet legal businesses entirely, but it CAN zone these places into defined areas, to mitigate the secondary impacts that may arise. This is a prudent exercise in good governance, IMHO.
@Lafayette
Chris,
Thanks for the compliments, and you are correct. I am sure we would agree on a great deal regarding KK’s in particular, and adult or sexually-oriented businesses as well. As I have said many times, move the line far enough, and you will find yourself standing with the larger crowd.
To your point: “The consumers will dictate if the business stays open or not. Perhaps, the novelity of the store that sells novelities will wear off. Time will tell. ” I will agree, and up the ante. I would love for the Skokans to determine that the sale of XXX-Porn DVD’s is keeping more potential customers out, than they are pulling in. People like me and Mrs. T. I hope they decide to drop the XXX-dvds from their shelves, and let folks know about it. If they did, they would gain a customer, and more importantly a supporter of their business, a business I would then want to see succeed. I told the Skokans that yesterday.
Steve Thomas,
My point is that few people are trying to regulate the other addictions I mentioned (“gaming addiction”, gambling, alcoholism, political obsessions, or any other addictive behavior which becomes more important to an individual than his/her relationship with his/her family). It seems as though a big brouhaha has occurred over a store operated by two women – which sells items primarily of interest to women. I’m not interested in the DVDs that the store offers, but I’m not going to screech “porn!” about items that can be sold legally. I favor gun control but I’m not going to picket the local shops.
If you don’t view Delegate Marshall’s, the City Council’s, and possibly the BOCS’s obsession with abortion as paternalistic, you and I are oceans apart. I’m not going to tell you which church you can attend or how to feel about abortion, but you should show the other side the same consideration IMO. No man can really understand the implications of a pregnancy on a woman they don’t know – but all too many try.
I was being sarcastic about parking spaces being at a premium being a secondary effect. However, I was questioning why there was a space left in front of KK’s on Battle Street during the festival. All other areas seemed full of vendors, entertainment, etc. And then there was this mysterious spot just in front of the store some residents planned to picket. I think perhaps the police department put a halt to some folks’ plans before the permit for a protest could be gotten.
Good for you for going into KK’s! It doesn’t look good for people to protest without knowing what’s inside the store – just as you’re right that I haven’t seen any XXX movies. Watching other people having intercourse just isn’t that interesting to me so I haven’t checked out any XXX-movies. While I like film noire, foreign films, and some crime films, I don’t like boring films and from what I’ve heard most XXXs are boring – at least intellectually.
From Steve Thomas:
Good for Steve Thomas for stopping by. Steve, feel free to post here, even if we aren’t given an exclusive. And regardless of what you have to say, I feel you have more credibility now you have been by the shop.
I hate the XXX’s also but I think we need to perhaps define what we mean by XXX. I am going to throw out the town anti-hero, jerk John Bobbitt. He made a porn film (John Bobbitt Uncut?) and someone gave Mr. Howler a copy. I lasted maybe 30 seconds in the movie. I got up and left. (john didn’t beat around the bush getting into the heavy action stuff) About 5 minutes later, out came Mr. H, a little green around the gills. It even grossed him out. It wasn’t the first movie of that type I had seen. (I am happy to report it is the last, however.)
Having said that, I have seen other films, made by women I might add, that a person might term erotica, but certainly weren’t totally gross like the Bobbitt film. I have no objections to those films. In my day, we would have called them ‘soft porn.’
What I am suggesting is ‘degrees.’ I won’t say get rid of all adult videos. I would say it is fair to ask the Skokans to not carry hard core XXX videos. The final choice is up to them, of course, but there is certainly nothing wrong with asking. And there is nothing wrong with not frequenting the store as long as they carry the videos.
The fact that Steve Thomas went on a fact finding mission puts him many steps up from other folks who started firing shots across the bow without any real information or attempt to speak with the store owners.
I will gladly share my information with him if he emails me at [email protected].
Go, Steve. You earned my respect by walking in the store and talking to Kim and Kristina. I hear plenty of people complaining about things all the time, especially neighborhood issues, and they’ve never made an attempt to do the footwork.
@Censored: If you’d like to know what my views are on abortion, gay marriage, or any other issue, I would not shrink from the opportunity to discuss them with you. Do I think I will bring you over to my side? I could only pray. However, I would like to demonstrate to you that my positions are arrived at after careful consideration of the issue, my reasoning rational, and while you may disagree, can understand and respect my position.
@MH: I use the generally accepted standard, and make now allowances for personal tastes. Anything that simply shows nudity, may or may not be “porn”. It depends on the context presented. Media where the sex is simulated or implied, shows genitalia for the purposes of implying a sexual situation, would be classified as X-rated or “softcore porn” and the “nude massage” video would fall into this category. Anything that shows actual intercourse, oral sex, anal sex etc. would be considered XXX-rated.
I am working on my post, and want to make sure I accurately convey my impressions and fairly characterize what perceived the message the Skokans trying to present. I am also weighing what would be the best venue in which to present this.
@Steve, I would probably throw in violence of multiple people in that definition. Anything remotely to do with kids in any way would also be included.
While we would probably agree on the standards, how we handle it might be different. It might be something as simple as you turning your head and me barfing.
I run in to the problem hating censorship and very often hating what is censored. It makes for quite the conundrum.
And I have to say this, I would sooner go to war over a convenience store that does cash for titles or check cashing than over a store that sells erotica. The car title and check cashing places are preditors and often prey on the most vulnerable people in society. I have special distain for the ones who extract an exorbitant interest rate from seniors who are trying to balance their money depending on when their SS checks hit. There are some real horror stories out there.
I would certainly hope that KKs isnt getting the blame for that place. If it is, that is purely bogus.
I did not have the pleasure of speaking with Miss Skokan, but I did have the pleasure of speaking with Mr. and Mrs. Skokan. Miss Skokan was running the front of the store, working with customers out there. Mr. Skokan hasn’t been publically engaged thus far, but is fully engaged in the business.
“I think perhaps the police department put a halt to some folks’ plans before the permit for a protest could be gotten.”
I think you’d be wrong. I think you could FOIA all applications for the demonstration on 10/2, and you’d find one. Mine. For City Hall. I think a better explanation might be the space was left open for a vendor who did not show up. You might want to ask HMI about that, considering it is they who control the spots, and no one else.
You are asking questions here, that no one here is really in a position to answer. I have tried to answer those which I have had direct knowledge or action of or in, like the organizing of the 10/2 rally. Think what you want, but you can either believe me, or find some documentary evidence that contradicts what I have presented. You could also talk to the Mayor, Delegate Miller, or anyone else who suits you.
Really Censored. I mean no disrespect here, but your seeing conspiracies everywhere has given me quite a chuckle. I wish I had half the power and influence that you think I have. Since the MGOP is running such a right-wing political machine, perhaps I should ask the committee to change my title from Vice-Chairman to “Cappo”… I am kidding of course.
Steve, the ventor who was usually there had been moved and he/she did not know why, according to one of our friends. Surely you can understand why people are wondering what that was all about. HMI didn’t know. No one knew. It sounds to me like someone thought something other than what happened, was going to happen.
I don’t have any idea. I was not there. I just know why people are questioning. In my ‘job’ one hears things. Anyone is welcome to come behind me and clarify if I have the story wrong.
I guess any group could meet and discuss who wanted to. I don’t think there really are any neutral parties, are there? I see community people. I would fit into that group, and City people. I would not fit in there. Perhaps there is a third group, the Old Town group. I could get a proxy for that group. 😉
@Chris,
As the crowd grew, the difficulty of nailing down a date for a meeting/summit became difficult for Andy. As I have said, I would welcome the opportunity to meet and discuss this with anyone. I promise to tuck in my horns and leave my pitchfork at home 🙂
Steve Thomas, I’m not certain that all requests for a permit to protest would show up on a FOIA request. A phone call or oral inquiry may not be subject to FOIA. Just because your request for a demonstration at City Hall may be the only written request doesn’t mean that a desire to hold the demonstration in front of KK’s wasn’t considered – and nixed by the police department. It may have been a no-starter. (I’ve had local politicians phone me so that their responses to my emails weren’t subject to FOIA when they just were interested in discussing an issue.)
Re the open space in front of KK’s – I wouldn’t be so sure that it was for a vendor -didn’t appear marked that way. HMI is probably the place to start for an explanation though.
You won’t change my mind on abortion. I’m old enough to remember the illegal and back alley types. I can understand people’s religious and moral opposition to the procedure, but women have always managed to get them and I’d prefer that they be safe and legal. It’s a medical procedure the local male politicians have chosen to single out for scrutiny. Allergists’ offices, dentists’ offices, gastroenterologists’ offices, etc. seem to have escaped this obsession with safety. And, yes, safety is something to concerned about – just don’t single out women’s health for your crusade.
Moonhowler, I agree about the cash for titles and check cashing places – they prey on vulnerable people. I’d rather see them more stringently regulated than regulating the type of underwear or videos people prefer.
@Censored, holy catfish, talk about bringing in ‘negative secondary influences.’ I stopped going to my computer repair place because of its proximity to one of those places. I am sure surprised OTM is not putting up a huge fuss over it. There is one over in front of the mall and there is a car title place across Sudley Road from the mall. They are a block apart. And how convenient, they are within walking distance of Irongate. I think the pawnshop is still over there too. Now….want to talk about negative secondaries? 🙄
Even the state has weighed in on regulating those knee-cap breakers.
Private liquor stores also bring in negative secondary influences also. Ever seen a pan handler in front of a VA ABC store? Not for long. Ever see one in DC or Maryland? Ever NOT see one? I don’t know why the governor is so insistant on ruining things. If he does, Lafayette and I are going to try to put a liquor store on Battle Street.
“I would certainly hope that KKs isnt getting the blame for that place. If it is, that is purely bogus.”
If it is, then I would agree, purely bogus. If someone does try to pin this on the Skokans, I’ll be first to speak against these assertions. I strongly believe this a case of someone trying to “cash” in on his understanding, based on what was portrayed in the news, of a certain market segment that his services might also appeal to. Having been inside KK’s, I would say with certainty that the folks who shop there, aren’t the type to use his services. What I am concerned about is that these potential clients of the check-cashing place would have a negative impact on KK’s business, City Square’s business, and the Candy Factory traffic. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.
“Just because your request for a demonstration at City Hall may be the only written request doesn’t mean that a desire to hold the demonstration in front of KK’s wasn’t considered – and nixed by the police department.”
(Sighs)… You really don’t know how things work. Ok. If the space was available, I we/would have had to get approval from HMI. If we did, and were willing to pay the fee for the booth space, the MCPD couldn’t have “nixed” anything. But, if your assertions regarding this being a massive conspiracy involving right-wing religious conservatives, the Manassas City Government, AND the MGOP, do you really think the MCPD could have stopped us? Really? I call the Mayor. The mayor calls the City Manager and orders him to approve the permit, who inturns orders the MCPD to approve the permit, and goody Thomas shows up in his pilgrim hat and hard sole buckle shoes, envokes the ghost of Reverend Winthrop and we have our demonstration. My converstations were with the Chief and Lt. Barnes. Who you talking to?
I really don’t know where you think you are getting your information from, but you MUST think it accurrate. I will say this. You get whoever you want to publically attest to what you think happened, and I will produce the Chief, City Manager’s office, and my application to give their versions of events. I’ll bet my house that they agree with me. This is the last time I will respond to a comment of yours regarding this subject. I have done so, and tried to keep my sarcasm to a minimum. if you have anything more than anonymously posted speculation, present your evidence. Anything further would be, in my opinion, foolishness on my part.
@Steve Thomas – You and I have more in common than I would have believed besides wearing NCO Stripes. I know the Combat Zone of Boston quite well, and my early years were spent in Jacksonville (TTI, TTII and the City). My mother is from Boston (Roxbury) and as a younger man, I accompanied my cousin who is on the BPD through the Zone on many occasions – nothing like having a personal guided tour. I have also seen places in this world where I was glad I am no angel and had no fear to tred…youth stupidity can make one do that. Ah, what found memories of those “hundred yard dashes” down in Jacksonville.
I personally applaud the City for spending the funds and overhauling zoning. If it takes an outside contract to accomplish what can not be accomplished in-house; or be the basis to verify that what Bob Bendall finds out and says to be true so that some may be quieted, go for it. No different than my support when the City settled on the defining family housing in 2008 as that too headed off further funds being spent on an action done in haste.
Proper regulation which ensures discouragement of anyone thinking of bring the “seedier” businesses into the City to begin with once Council implements the ordinance will be a good thing.
The scenario building of what may or may not occur because of KK’s is having one interesting side effect: each of the scenarios seem to add justification to fund the Police Officers long identified as a need, just no funding available.
As in any “wargaming exercise”, my main hope is the principles of leadership are followed, rational fact-based scenarios are used, and as much as possible, individual beliefs guide but not control the outcome.
@Raymond Beverage
Mr. Beverage,
Nice to know we’ve chewed some of the same dirt! And to your other points, I am in agreement. I have come to realize, especially after my visit to the store, the situation could have been far, far worse. Someone could have come in and built a business 100% focused on that which I object to, XXX-rated videos and the City could have done little to stop it. In my humble estimation, if we had to face the issue of an adult-oriented business in Old Town, we could have done far, far worse than KK’s. That doesn’t mean that I’ll quit my opposition to the 15% or so of their total shelf-space devoted to XXX-rated videos. At least the owners appear willing to listen to reasoned opposing views.
Steve Thomas,
Exaggerate much?
Are you saying you’re the only person who inquired about how a protest could happen? If not, how do you know who said what to whom? Perhaps someone asked HMI for a space and that organization inquired of the PD about the particulars or inquired of the City Manager or Council. There’s a public safety issue involved in handling large crowds and I doubt anyone other than the protestors wanted a disruption in the center of the festival. Look at all the effort that went into protecting the Fourth of July celebrations from a planned/potential demonstartion by Gaudencio Fernadez. Better for the City to offer up City Hall (out of the way of the festivities) than have to deal with potential disruptions in the heart of the festival.
Every governmental sneeze is not subject to FOIA.
“Are you saying you’re the only person who inquired about how a protest could happen? ”
Censored,
This will definitely be my last response on the subject of the who/what/why/when/where/how of the demonstration.
My initial entry into the detailed discussion on the Harrover blog were intended to clear up the rumors and speculation that were being bandied about:
“Steve Thomas | Monday, 04 October 2010 at 4:09 pm
and just to clarify a point made by Ms. Nettie Stevens on another thread pertaining to this issue:
“I find it funny…that those involved in the protest ACTUALLY wanted it to be held IN FRONT of KK’s DURING the October Fest. However, THANK GOODNESS, someone at the police department would not give them a permit for that location. SO IF they tell you “oh it was at city hall not at the fall festival”…that’s because the police diverted their EVIL PLAN”
.
Ma’am. That is incorrect. I secured the permit for the protest. At no time was there any discussion of having it anywhere accept where it was actually held, nor was any permit application made for a location other than where it was held. I can understand that you and I are on different sides of the issues. You are entitled to your own opinion, but you need not spread false information and present that as your own set of facts.”
You have asked me previously to comment, implying that I have direct knowledge of everything that occurred. My discussions with MCPD prior to the event give me every indication that I was the only individual seeking a permit to have a demonstration on that date, in the vicinity of Old Town. If someone from HMI left a space in anticipation of a protest, that was their decision. I find the premise flawed in that HMI would be losing revenue for doing so. If the MCPD were going to “nix” an event, ANY event, they cannot do it without the review of a proposed security plan. Due to the size and location of our demonstration, I had to submit an abbreviated plan. Perhaps some other group of concerned citizens inquired about a permit, and thought it too much work to move forward, but I have know knowledge of this happening. You seem convinced that some individual or group tried to go through the approval process, and was righteously thwarted by the good folks at MCPD. If you have any tangible proof, please present it. If someone at MCPD is telling you this happened, then there is an issue. First off, the MCPD would be in violation of Manassas City law, if they actually “nixed” a request for a permit to demonstrate on City Property, without first reviewing a permit application/proposed security plan. Even though a permit is not required for a sidewalk demonstration of 14 or fewer people, the fact that the time/place of any proposed demonstration would have required HMI approval, as during the Fall Jubilee, HMI has control of all the areas that encompass the festival, including the streets and sidewalks. So, in order to prove that what you claim actually took place, I would have to believe:
-Some unnamed individual or group wanted to protest in front of KK’s, during the time allocated for the Fall Jubilee.
-Said individual or group contacted either the MCPD, HMI, or The City Manager’s office, and expressed their desire to have a demonstration, but as far as we know, none of this was in writing. I say this, because there was nothing communicated to me at the time of my application, that there was another demonstration planned.
-HMI approved this protest, foregoing the revenue of the space in front of KK’s, and left it open, again, with no paperwork, as far as we can tell.
-Said Individual of group, who now had a space, and approval from HMI, contacted the MCPD, or HMI contacted the MCPD, and informed them of the planned demonstration, and someone at MCPD (not Lt. Barnes, who handles reviewing and issuing permits) “nixed” the planned demonstration.
-None of these supposed happenings are known to anyone other than a few bloggers and Ms. Nettie Stevens, Manassas City Resident.
Or this Scenario may have occurred:
– A group of concerned residents opposed to the shop, met and brainstormed on ways to show their opposition, and it was decided that a demonstration during the Fall Jubilee may be an effective way to do so.
-Locations were discussed. Some wanted to do it on Battle Street. One individual, having organized space during the festivals hosted by HMI, knew what their policies are, and expressed that even if they wanted to do so on Battle Street, by such a late date, no space would be available. Also, this individual knows that “moving demonstrations” are not permitted during the festival, again from previous experience. The idea for having it in front of KK’s was dropped quickly, and the group decided that City Hall would be the best location, as it is outside of the festival area, and while they wanted to get their message out, they didn’t want to disrupt the Fall Festival by doing so within the festival bounds.
-Because this individual had previous experience organizing things like this, he was asked to get the proper approvals from the city.
-This individual submitted an application with security plan, had a call and face to face meeting with Lt. Barnes, received the permit.
-This individual also had two follow-up calls with the Chief, to clarify that the event mentioned in the N&M article where they quoted co-organizer Jen Bessinger, and the event mentioned in an email sent by Delegate Miller, were in fact the the event that had been previously approved, because each had named the same location, and they anticipated crowd size had not changed, which would require additional MCPD resources. This individual clarified there is only one event, but did ask if any other group, besides what the Chief had mentioned, had made application for a demonstration. The Chief responded that there was one application made, and this application was approve, for the event at City Hall. No one else had requested a permit for City Hall, or any other location, and if there was a different, unassociated demonstration, it would be shut down for lack of permit.
-The Demonstration was held, without incident.
Which scenario sounds more plausible? I can attest to the second, as I was the individual who worked with the city.
Steve Thomas, I know that permits go through more than just the police department and that they must allow ample time for multiple agencies to review them. I don’t doubt that you were the individual who made the actual application for the rally – thereby signing the paperwork which would be subject to FOIA. That doesn’t stop me from ruling out that some other individual may have made a phone inquiry about using the other location. I’ve been a member of groups where an individual doesn’t like what the group or its lawyer has decided and went off on his/her own to seek further information. The City generally tries to accomodate a group by offering an alternative time or place for their activities – just as Mr. Fernandez was offered an alternative time for his Fourth of July march. The idea would not be to deny the permit to have a rally, but to have it in an alternative place. I guess you knew enough to realize that picketing in front of KK’s was not going to be approved and saved your group some time. Nevertheless, the space was left open and I suppose HMI would have to answer for that.
I agree- enough with beating this particular dead horse. The festival had great weather and a good turnout. All the protestors of sexy panties and XXX-DVDs had their day in the sun as well- although somewhat removed from the festivities.
“I agree- enough with beating this particular dead horse. The festival had great weather and a good turnout. All the protestors of sexy panties and XXX-DVDs had their day in the sun as well- although somewhat removed from the festivities.”
Here, Here, and a Harrumph! The horse is dead. The weather was great. The festival a success and not disrupted, and those in opposition were allowed to peacefully assemble and exercise free speech. Manassas is a great City to live in. Also, I hope I have made it clear that I am “pro-sexy panties”, but will accept being lumped in with the Anti- XXX-DVD folks…:-)
I have a guest post over at Andy Harrover’s blog, describing my visit to KK’s. I hope you will read and comment, either here or there.
Steve,
I just an email from Andy and looks like the “summit” may possibly be back on. Don’t worry about those horns, it’s Halloween. 🙂