The Leesburg Courthouse is always a place to look for some good old Christmas spirit and good old controversy. Every year it seems warring factions go up against each other over the right to display Christmas decorations on the Courthouse lawn. This year some decisions were made early–back in September even.
A little refresher course is provided:
According to TDB (September):
The policy that the Loudoun County Board of Supervisors voted to maintain provides equal access for unattended, semi-permanent displays on the grounds of the historic courthouse in Leesburg.
Displays are open to all who apply, but the number of displays is limited to the ten locations on the grounds that have been designated as display sites. The Board also voted to limit the period of time for filing a display application to no earlier than one year before the date the display would begin.
The Office of the County Administrator has received six applications to date for displays, five of which are for the 2010 holiday season. Information about how to apply for a display on the courthouse grounds is online at www.loudoun.gov/courthousegrounds.
The county voted 8-1 to keep the policy allowing the displays, religious or not. The one supervisor who voted against it says that the courthouse is a place to conduct court, not for any type of display.
That ‘Not Freedom from Religion’ always gets me. As much as has been said about Islam recently, what if local Muslims wanted some Islamic decorations at the Leesburg Courthouse. Al-Hijirah falls on December 7 in 2010. I don’t know anything about the holy day but I am sure someone would love to tell me all about it. If the Loudoun County Muslims applied to put up a display, which would be perfectly within their rights, some folks would be hollering bloody murder. Same goes for Santeria, snake handling and pagan religions–a great hue and cry would be heard.
Maybe Loudoun County could avoid some of its controversy by putting up one giant Christmas tree…a nice religiously neutral Christmas tree and let the churches do all the mangers. That way they won’t have the atheist completing with the religious groups. I have never figured out what an atheist display would look like anyway. I need to drive over to Leesburg this week just to check things out. Most displays will go up around December 16. So far, a large size letter to Jesus, an atheist display and a display to the religion of Jediism are expected. Jediism? Seriously folks….
al-Hijrah is the end of the lunar year, and start of the new one for Islam. It commemorates Muhammad’s migration to Medina.
Hmmm, end of one, start of another lunar year….fits right in, don’t you think, MH? 🙂
just watched the video….and now, a bit of paraphrasing of a classic poem –
“and what to my wondering eyes did appear…
at 36 seconds….
Is that Bob Marshall so near??”
Raymond, did you see what I see? (I just had to do that) I thought I saw Marshall ….I guess that must be part of the 13th?
I guess he has his foot in every door.
And to answer that rascally smiley question, YUP.
I am going to gave to go jump on the Green Way next week and just go check things out for myself.
While marching in the parade today, I would yell “Merry Christmas!” and the crowd would yell back.
Then I would yell “Happy Hanukkah!” And they would yell back. Same with Kwanzaa.
Then I would yell, “and to any atheists…..(normal voice) Have a nice day.”
“pagan religions–a great hue and cry would be heard. ”
Not from me. The more skyclad women…..the better. And think of the tourist draw….
From Leesburg Today:
I am not so sure I like the Atheists ‘owning’ the solstice. Celebrations around the solstice include Christianty, Judaism, Wiccan, Druid religions, etc. Not so fast atheists. Belief in nothing supreme….leave the solstice out of your nothingness.
Not everyone is as open-minded as you are, Cargo. How was the party tonight? Did Squidette enjoy herself?
For years a creche was placed on the lawn of the Old Prince William Courthouse
in Manassas, but was moved to avoid legal conflicts around a decade ago , to
Nelson Park in Old Town Manassas (note the sign nearby that states displays
are not officially endorsed by the City of Manassas).
Jurisdiction may “open the door” to displays, but the law limits their ability
to decide which ones are displayed. This has been, in large part, the issue
in Leesburg.
What’s the difference in the courthouse and Nelson Park? (as far as being city property)
Why is Loudoun such a hotbed of whatever and we aren’t?
“language recognizing the principle of separation of church and state, and text that reads, “Religion is the business of churches, not of government. This is not a church.””
Its a shame that the atheists are so historically ignorant. The only language like that is in a letter from Tommy Jefferson. The gov’t has no business REGULATING OR RESTRICTING the exercise of religion.
Also, Religion is the business of people. The same people that make up the government. We are a democratic republic. I welcome the multitude of exhibits, even the one the includes the atheistic BELIEF that there is no GOD. They are entitled to their faith also.
Let the most convincing religion win. Afterward. we can roast marshmalllows!
Excellent question with regards to Nelson Park, Moon. Do you remember seeing the fountain full of suds on the weekends back in the day?
Big Dog, please explain the difference to those Manassas residents in PWC. My grandmother and cousin were part of the painting crew that last painted the creche.
Thomas Jefferson should not be dismissed because he, after all, penned the first amendment. He had a hard time getting it through his own state, however. The Anglican Church was the state church of Virginia and Baptists were being jailed for preaching.
Religions are incidious. They all think, by definition, that they are the one true faith. This gives them a feeling of empowerment and they tend to try to overide others. They are forever trying to get into schools, prisons, businesses, etc…anywhere there is a captive audience to evangelize and seek new recruits. That’s just what they do.
I think the govt. has ever right to restrict the exercise of religion in the public square. Too many folks get in the position of being the capitve audience. Neutrality is great. Churches practicing freely on their own turf is fine. Going in to the schools and preying on kids is not ok.
I am not even sure I think it is ok to have prayers before public meetings. Moments of silence are fine. This group pray along in a pluralistic society is not ok.
Cargo, I have a problem with atheists claiming the solstice as ‘theirs.’ Too many other religions either have it as their roots or actually observe it as part of religious ritual. Perhaps I am being small and petty. But if you believe in nothing, then don’t go claiming something that is spiritually special to many.
Lafayette, yes. did you dump the tide in there or did one of my kids do it?
Lafayette, bless your grandmother and cousin for their volunteer work.
The creche display is a great community tradition.
My memory is a park was considered less “tainted” by government than
a location next to a courthouse or seat of government. Primarily remember
attorneys underlining all displays could not be allowed, but once one was OKed
then others would have to have the same opportunity under the same rules.
( Note that the old Courthouse lawn is now, due to the “hole in the donut”, legally in
PWC and not the City. Reflected numerous times then on memorial cannon being
just yards from the manger, although, also nearby, was a “Peace Pole”).
http://www.uri.edu/personal/hbak9412/Reldis.htm
Some off you might find this of interest.
Big Dog, I will pass that on to my cousin. This will be our first Christmas without grandma. Many fond memories of the City growing up. I enjoyed attending Manassas Christian just around the corner from grandma. There was a picture of the painting that was in the Journal Messenger when the painting was done. I know you are our local historian and can dig up those old newspaper clippings from long ago. Any chance you might be able to locate that story w/picture?
I don’t even want to think about how the issue would be addressed by the BoS. I do miss seeing the creche at the old courthouse.
Moon,
NO!! I probably would’ve gotten there to late to get the bubble job done. 😉 I think it is a good thing I didn’t know the Howlettes as a teen. lol
@Laf, must have happened under Howlette the First’s reign…Mr. Howler’s boy.
Did the BOCS throw the creche off the courthouse steps or did the City take their creche and go?
I remember the suds and……lol 😉
Red Dawn, you would. Perhaps, Moon will question you, as she did me. 🙂
Moon, sure blame it on the Mr’s kid. I missed both batches of kids. I’m your MIDDLE child. lol
The Soltisce – December 21st is a double-bonus as we also get a lunar eclipse!!!
I ponder Moon’s pondering on why Loudoun is such a hotbed and we are not…at least in terms of the legal battles. Could part of it possibly be that in our urbanized portion of the Prince William Area, we are so compact with so many churches, there are displays just about around every corner?
And it terms of moving the display to Nelson Park, was that a time when a “gentlemen’s agreement” avoided raised tempers and actions?
Finally, since we have enough open space, all the Druids, Jedis, and Church of the Two-Seeded Predestinarians have enough area they can worship as they see?
The creche was moved to Nelson Park by the City of Manassas to avoid
an attack from the ACLU. This was before the “hole in the donut”.
– No citizen in the area ever, to my knowledge, complained about the
Court House location, but after Thanksgiving, the ACLU office in Alex.
would send out agents to check local communities. One year we became
their selected victim.
– The creche belongs to and is maintained by volunteers.
Big Dog,
Why is Nelson Park different? how come the ACLU leaves it alone?
I didn’t realize the soltice this year got the lunar eclipse. I usually do a thread also. How neat!! I need to go find a place in the open spaces to watch.
Now a mystery.
Drove by Nelson Park to read the disclaimer sign, but no sign AND no creche.
Had been there for years and just assumed it was this year (Sudley Rd. side of park).
I’ll check around Monday.
Perhaps Lafayette’s cousin knows the story.
Does that mean Nelson Park is Creche-less?
Did you say that the creche is privately owned?
It appears that the Bonfadini’s will not be cranking out the tunes again this year. I think they skpped last year also.
Where is Wolverine? Where is our Loudoun County representative?
For everyone’s information, I read that there existed between 800 and 900 Gods in the world (say 850). You probably do not believe in 849 of them. Atheists just don’t believe in one more than you don’t believe in.
Wolverine is sitting in front of his computer wondering why this thing draws so much focus. Just twenty days, and Christmas will be over for another year.
Personally I have no argument with a decision to allow holiday displays by any established religion — so long as none of those displays serve to denigrate the religions of others (which that atheist crowd comes very close to doing, in my opinion). Actually, I think the multi-religious displays are a very good pat on the back for the great religious freedom found in our particular socio-political system. Moreover, I think such things can be very valuable from an educational perspective. If I find a Jewish menorah on display next to a creche, for example, I would be happy to explain to my grandkids the story behind that object, especially since the story of ancient Israel is such an integral part of their own religious education. We explain to our grandkids that, while we and the Jewish people have points of doctrinal disagreement, we are both “People of the Book” and brothers and sisters in the eyes of the same God.
Now, it might be a bit different if Wolverine showed with a huge poster of a Victoria’s Secret model and proclaimed it was the Religion of the Great Mammaries with me as the reigning archbishop. That would be a hoot. Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office deputies escorting Neighborhood Watch OFF the premises!!
I have never understood the attitude of being so offended by and/or suspicious of religion that you want peaceful displays of such banned from the public square and those whose ideas are influenced by their own religion banned from the political forum. Ideas are not made out of thin air. They all have some base influence. Some from religion. Some from the great secular philosophers and law-givers of history. Some from dedicated ideologues such as Marx and Engels. Some from simple humanitarian desires. Some from groups with ultra-common ideals such as trade unionism and the protection of the working man. Whatever they may be, all those ideas come from some external source and from external influences such as family, education, religion, personal experience, and other social milieux.
We have a constitutional system which has achieved something quite unique in political history — a system predicated upon the will of the majority and, at the same time, the protection of the minority. In my view, this system demands that all voices be allowed to be heard in the political forum and that all issues be debated freely, with no one being excluded because certain others do not like their ideas. I thought that was a lesson we learned from the McCarthy era — that you cannot discriminate in the arenas of freedom of thought and speech without transgressing against our own founding principles. The only real restrictions on that freedom are when you resort to violence and discrimination or when you migrate beyond an established Pale into the area of destroying the constitutional system itself. And that system has a defined method for accepting or rejecting social or political change by endeavoring to ensure that those changes do not place the minority in an unacceptable position of total submission and powerlessness.
So, if it is deemed proper to exclude from the public advocacy forum those whose basic ideals come from their religious faith, what is there to stop the worm from turning some day and excluding you from the same forum because of the source of your own ideals, whether they are from Hegel or Kant or Marx or Adam Smith or any other secular source? What kind of democratic system would we have if we told the opposing team that they must stay in their own locker room and not even take the field? But, oh, you say you don’t like that other team because they are such believers in their “one true faith” and that such belief gives them a sense of “empowerment.” No kidding. How does that differ, really, from almost all other advocacy? There is this conservative guy who can distinctly remember being called a “Neanderthal” (among the more polite invectives) by certain believers in the liberal “one true faith.” What kind of reception would he get if he demanded that all liberals keep themselves in their locker room and off the playing field?
Just sayin’ — it’s a free country and an open playing field. That, in my opinion, is what makes it a great country.
Moon, write-up about the Soltisce Eclipse in the WaPo today:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/04/AR2010120400219.html
So the battle of the religions is just part of Loudoun? that’s what you’all do?
My only gripe is….that solstice is not an atheist symbol. Other than that…have at it.
Thanks Raymond!!
Then, those that use the solstice should emphasize that and make the atheists look bad. The atheists should just put up a blank sign. I mean, for 100’s of years, the premier scientists of the world were men of faith. So the non-believers, oh, sorry, they BELIEVE that there is no God, so…atheists, also don’t have a lock on science.
Just had a thought….skyclad Wiccan women celebrating the solstice would bring A LOT of press demonstrating that the Atheists don’t own the solstice…….. 😉
Agreed. But many allow science to fill in the blanks where people of religious faith allow science and religion to exist side by side or…in the case of some people of faith, they allow religion to take over the science part.
That would be a challenge if you were an atheist….how to display your lack of belief. I think I would put up court cases that got Americans from point A to point B.
But by George, or Bacchius, or Morgaine or whoever, they cannot have Solstice.