Is everyone cold enough yet? This is a brutal winter. Keep the conversation warm.
156 Thoughts to “Open Thread…………………………………Thursday, December 16”
Comments are closed.
Open Thread…………………………………Thursday, December 16
Is everyone cold enough yet? This is a brutal winter. Keep the conversation warm.
Comments are closed.
@Wolverine
Well played.
Perhaps Wolverine should leave a link.
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Actually, I don’t even want to hear anyone defend the crap that Faux News dishes out. It is obvious to those with no formal training in spotting propoganda.
Cargo, you are clarifying and correcting questions. That isn’t how surveys work. The question, for example, was about the stimulus package losing jobs. You have told us why jobs weren’t gained. Those are not the same thing.
I think there is a great deal of validity to the study. I watch Faux News quite often and it is very obvious. Maybe you shoiuld watch more often and you would see what we are all talking about.
The federal government DOES NOT mandate that you wear clothes in public. There are many places where varying degrees of clothing are possible. If you stayed in those areas, including your home, you are fine. Yes, I know that its highly unlikely and that your scenario is reasonable. But, no citizen is being forced to buy clothes in order to prevent the costs from laid on others.
Of course, there is also the principle that the HCR bill forces private companies into selling services at a loss. Because the government has set up a system that forces seniors into a government mandated system, that allows them to game the system, a system that exists because the elderly need it, because they can’t be allowed to set up their affairs privately, we now have to support the system by forcing everyone into buying a product, mandated by Congress? Yet, Congress, in the face of this emergency, allows the politically connected to opt out? Congress passes a law, written by a third party, unread, that contains over 400 OTHER UNRELATED items, that’s supposed to “save health care” but, raises the cost of health care on private enterprise, is unaffordable by the unemployed, and is forcing the insurance companies that are supposed to facilitate this to drop policies.
Yeaaah, that’ll work. So, since everyone must buy special government approved health insurance because SOME people are unable to pay and therefore must be put on welfare. I thought we already paid taxes for welfare. And we already pay Medicare taxes and Medicaid taxes. Raise them, if they feel the need is so great. If the health care environment is so dire about everyone “not pulling their fair share” then make it a single payer system and have the governrment take it completely over and we’ll just pay taxes. If you’re going to socialize something, the go whole hog. That way we know whom to blame. This system is being built so that Congress has yet another layer of protection. If it goes belly up, they want to be able to blame the evil insurance corporations.
This argument about others having to bear the costs is the entire argument against the idea of socialized anything. If we have to buy insurance because Medicare/medicaid is going up, then what is limit to the demands of government on your actions? Since they will control the types of insurance completely, and one cannot be turned down for “pre-existing” conditions, costs will be controlled by restricting treatments and by restricting “unhealthy” behaviours. My insurance costs should not be more than any other’s if pre-existing conditions are excusable.
It is governmental policy that causes this moral hazard. We require that hospitals take in all comers. As a society, we’ve decided to bear that cost. And now, Congress is basically saying that health care should not be inconvenient. Parts of Congress want to treat it as a right. It is not. It is a commodity. Access to health care products is a right. That is why we had charities. Then the cost was voluntary. We were not forced to pay for others.
So, the case is this. Citizens are being told that they must by health insurance to be a legal citizen. If they do not, they will be fined for a lack of an action. They could lose their homes. Then, said same citizen, when they do not pay the fine, they will be arrested and will be provide health care by the state. And if they resist arrest, they will be killed. Because they did not need health care insurance.
Btw, will veterans need to purchase health care insurance? My health care is at the VA. It was part of my employment contract.
The more that Congress tries to fix, the more they HAVE to “fix”.
And the buying of the gun is a perfect analogy. One of the responsibilities of the citizen is to be a member of the unorganized militia. And if the government determined that the militia must be armed, you would have to buy a gun. All it takes is for Congress to revisit the requirements of the militia. At least THAT idea is supported by the Constitution.
@Pat.Herve
From what I’ve seen, it was 6-9 Republicans that had earmarks, including Murkowski and Bennett.
Some of these have since pulled their earmarks or said that they would not vote for it. So, ok. The Dems still have enough votes to put the bill through, though without any GOP cover, if none vote for it. Unless, the Dems needed those GOP votes because enough Dems realized that the bill was a pork laden POS and weren’t going to vote for it.
@Moon-howler
The perception is that the stimulus package did not and has not worked. We have lost MILLIONS OF JOBS since the stimulus. Therefore, the stimulus did not work and we lost jobs. That is probably what those people are answering. Of course, the total number of people asked was 616 people. That’s not great cross section.
You don’t like Fox,….ok. Don’t care. But, the point I was making was that the premises that the survey said was “correct” were NOT actually correct. Those that got their sources from conservative sources disagree with the “narrative” put out by the mainstream media and the administration. Some of the perceptions were wrong. Some are right.
Actually, those trusts are being used more and more by the “middle class” as an inexpensive way to protect assets.
I don’t know ANYONE in my family tree that has tried to get the system to pay for health care so that the inheritance stays intact. I do agree that people use the system to protect their assets and then use medicaid. Still kind of hard. You have to put your assets into an irrevocable trust at least 5 years prior to moving into a nursing home.
Why not reform medicaid and make it impossible to hide assets if its such a problem? If medicaid is supposed to be a safety net for the poor, then make sure that all users ARE poor or become poor after they sell their assets………
There is no perfect way to protect people from costs associated with health care and aging. Social Security was supposed to be protected because most people died before payout, but, darn it, now they’re living to a ripe old age…..and getting their money back.
@Cargo, I do not agree that you were supposed to die before receiving SS benefits. In my lifetime the retirement age has been around 65. Social Security was to help with expenses after retirement. Nothing more, nothing less. It must be protected at all costs.
@Moon-howler
I’d imagine he would have posted this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6ZczqgLkuw
Oh, and Wolve I’ve got that 60 ready locked and cocked and I’m right here on your six.
Guess he didn’t listen to it all the way through then.
I actually thought Moe showed considerable self retraint. This is not the place where the ‘liberals’ are all going to go slinking off with their tails between their legs because the non-liberals are throwing elephant dung and then get pissed off when someone kicks it back at them.
There is simply no defense of a 24 hour cable network that casts its own pale on real news as much as Faux news. i would have much more respect if they just got over it and called themselves the Republican Channel. Then we could talk some turkey instead of HS. The H stands for ‘horse.’
But then what do I know. I am just an ex-civil servant, decended from civil servants and the mother of bartenders. Definitely not the brightest nor the best and didn’t come from the brightest or the best either. But I am an elistist who is not in touch with reality.
And those insults were all hurled today. I don’t know if I am a bagger or a baggee but I am not whining about it. In fact, it is just putting me into a make my day sort of mood.
@Pat.Herve
I agree. Why should they get special tax cuts? And if Bush used that term, its still unverifiable and stupid.
So, Moon, what do you think of the propaganda put out by the other stations, then? Where would you rank MSNBC and CNN? And if you don’t like Fox, why do you watch it? You obviously think that they are lying to you or at the least, disagree with your world view.
Pat, here’s an analogy. Based upon the clothes idea, since all people will need shelter, do we now all need to buy home insurance so that homeless people can get a home? I mean, they didn’t start out without a home. But due to some problem, they lost all of their shelter and now we have to provide for them. So, shouldn’t wee all have to pay for “home insurance” to make sure that we’ll all have a home to, at least, rent if we should need one?
Cargo, what you have to ask yourself is how it is being presented. Exactly what is it you see on CNN that you feel is twisted news that favors the Democrats? How about MSNBC–same question. I am not talking about Hannity, O’Reilly, Maddow, or Olbermann–that is obvious. Those are commentators. They are what they are.
Compare Morning Joe to Fox and Friends. Morning Joe has Pat Buchanan on most mornings for God’ sake. Mika is a liberal and Joe Scarborough is a moderate Republican. They talk. Most mornings they are civil. Sorry, I don’t see that kind of balance on Fox and Friends where there is a solid three hours of misrepresented news and snotty little jabs.
I try to find conservative sources as a blog mistress. I keep Faux News running during the day. I do know what I am talking about on this one.
As for the stimulus package….that is way too vague to assess and it just a political game. I also believe it is impossible to measure. How can you measure that which did not happen? How much worse could things have gotten? How about TARP? Aren’t you an anto-TARP person?
I don’t see the problem with Fox and Friends. It doesn’t say “8 AM News” or something like that. Fox and Friends implies a talk show. No one ever accused talk shows of being truthful and telling the news. And, “Fox and Friends” implies friends. In Fox’s view liberals would not be “friends”. I see nothing wrong in the title and what it implies, despite the fact that is continually attacked here. I don’t think anyone tunes into Fox and Friends and expects to get news without any bias or slant to it.
GR, I know all sorts of people who think that every word out of the mouths of the three hosts is gospel. If anyone is delivering news in news format, don’t you feel there is a responsibility to be truthful?
And while the title does not say ‘morning news show’ is is billed throughout the day as a morning news show. (Fox and Friends) I don’t care what they call themselves. I know what they do and they are not a good source of inaccurate news.
You apparently don’t know as many ….kool aid drinkers ….as I do. I don’t expect Faux News to change. I just expect people to realize that they are being fed BS in many cases. I do think Shep Smith has integrity, although he is not without some opinon. It just isn’t good journalism.
I also expect you probably don’t have much of a chance to watch Fox and Friends.
@Moon-howler
People will always mistake heresy for Gospel, MH. It’s part of a stupid, human condition.
@Moon-howler
When SS was implemented, the expected life expectancy of white males was about 59 years old. That stayed the same until the 40’s when it entered the low 60’s.
So, in fact, they did expect you to die before taking out the money. It wasn’t until the 80’s that life expectancy rose past 70. Single black men have it worse. They pay into the system all of their lives and a huge portion of them die before the age of 62.
Its a ponzi scheme and the bill is coming due.
I’ll grant you I’m not around to watch Fox & Friends. However, I still say few people out there believe what they see in the print and television “news media” as the gospel truth. Those that do, there’s equal amounts on both sides, so it balances out. I just don’t buy that Fox News is the only “evil” thing out there – MSNBC is pretty one-sided too. And, I bet there’s people who watch that and think it’s the gospel truth.
Actually an actuarial table is a set of averages. So with that in mind, can’t we make the same argument that SS started out as a means to help those who didn’t drop dead from the toils of the depression?
Most Americans like having social security in place. There are certainly ways to tweak it to keep up with the times and changes in American society if the idiot political parties can cut the reindeer political games. Americans expect these safety nets in place.
@Gainesville Resident
The above survey even listed MSNBC as one of the sources of “misinformation.”
They mention that many believed that the Chamber of Commerce was taking foreign money to influence elections, as reported by MSNBC. However, what the survey does not mention is that MSNBC got that from quotes from politicians.
And we all know politicians never lie or distort things! Therefore, it must be true (even though MSNBC didn’t mention them as the source)!
From the Manassas Observer & Sen. George Barker’s website:
Town Hall meetings with state senators and delegates before the General Assembly Session:
January 3 starting @ 7 PM
Western Prince William Town Hall
Manassas City Council Chambers
9027 Center Street
Manassas
January 4 starting @7PM
Eastern Prince William Town Hall
Cedar Run Conference Room at the McCoart Building
1 County Complex Court
Woodbridge
Expected to attend:
Senator Chuck Colgan
Senator George Barker
Delegate Bob Marshall
Delegate Jackson Miller
Delegate Scott Lingamfelter
Delegate Rich Anderson
No one ever said MSNBC was the source of all that is correct. I compared 2 shows. Morning Joe and Fox and Friends. I would say that Morning Joe is far more correct and, not to borrow a phrase, but fair and balanced. Is it commentary? Yes. Do they discuss news items? Yes. Do they give different points of view? Yes.
Does Fox and Friends say they are commentary? Not really. Do they discuss news items? Yes. Do they give different points of view? Rarely.
Is Fox and Friend the only heavily viewpointed source of news? No. Are there others as bad? Yes, some even worse. The problem with Fox is they are far reaching. They have cultivated curb appeal to a new high. There are great car chases, lots of T & A and the stock market ticker runs all the time (except during commercials.) They give runs of headline news hourly.
People just need to know they aren’t getting fair and balanced. Many of them don’t. Some of those same people would tell you they are friends of mine but fight me over something they heard on FAux News.
That’s the only point. Faux News knows what it does and tries to perfect it. Brilliant political plan. But there will be lots of watch dogs out there to call them out over lies.
Cargo and GR, feel free to love Faux News. It doesn’t matter to me. I know it isn’t harming GR because I get all sorts of articles from him from a multitude of sources.
It is the people like Ms. X who lives out of state and truly believes everything she hears that concerns me.
Yes, but I see Fox News attacked on here far more often than MSNBC news. So to be fair and balanced MSNBC should be singled out from time to time. I also saw a rant with some nasty words in it by a previous poster in this thread. It seemed time to answer back. And it seems to be suggested Fox is being singled out due to its success. One has to wonder why it is so successful then.
[Absolutely I single out FAux News. I also praise them when they rarely earn it. I have never claimed to not intensely dislike Faux News. I am not a Republican. MH]
I never really said I love Fox News. In fact, I don’t watch it all that often really. However, as I said before, it is singled out way too often here for criticism compared to any other news source – that was my main point. Plus as usual some liberals on here are throwing around nasty words, and I think me and Cargo (and other conservatives on here) have been pretty respectful in that regard.
Moon, SS started out in 1935 as “Old Age, Survivors, & Disability Insurance Program” and still is officially known by that. The National Housing Act was passed in 1934, and pieces of SS got bundled into that Act.
It was LBJ’s “Great Society” that added Medicare and the Older Americans Act to SS in 1964 through 1966. The Supplemental Security Income Act got tied to SS in 1974. Nursing Home Reform Act got bundled with SS in 1978. Disability Programs (beyond the ones for Education which began in 1975) got tied in through the passasge of the Americans with Disability Act in 1990.
These are things folks are not fuller aware about SS, and that is why I like to refer to SS as a “spider web” – so much as been interweaved, it has gone beyond the basic original intent of providing a source of social insurance.
Cargo is right the bill is going to come due….the main trust was raided one too many times to balance other programs.
@Cargo – you raised the point about Veterans having to pay for their own health care, and you are not off the mark. There are 8 priorties in the V.A. system, and the bottom two already have co-pays. And let us not forget how goofy CHAMPVA is as an insurance program. For Active Duty, TRICARE already has three levels, and the higher level of care you want, you have to pay the higher premium for your dependents. Beginning to seem in the Military the only time you really get free medical care anymore is when you get deployed out and the medic is standing there.
@Cindy B
Good info. Thanks for posting that.
Is it just me or does anyone else get a strange feeling in yer gut (and rear) whenever you hear the words “Great Society”?
So who gets to decide the ‘too often?’ I would assume the blog owners.
1. I didn’t print the original article.
2. I plan to call out Faux News every time I feel someone’s behavior on that station warrants closer scrutiny. If it is daily, then so be it.
3. Any time a TV station or publication seems to have an undo influence on voters, it seems to me it is a good idea to take a closer look.
4. Feel free to call out Keith Olbermann as often as you like. It won’t hurt my feelings.
5. I saw some nasty words directed AT that person after he posted an article criticing Faux News also.
6. You will always see more criticism of Faux News than MSNBC on this blog. Faux News is far more influential and has far more bias in the regular ‘news’ part of the show.
Raymond, so do we just tell the senior citizens to go fend for themselves, throwing up our hands while we do it?
One way to fix some of the problem would be to make sure those who are in the country illegally are also paying into social security. We have gonefrom 17 supporters to 3.3 workers supporting a person on SS. Insisting that people work instead of sitting on their butts might also help improve the system. Then there is the idea of lifting the ceiling above $120k.
No one wants to make those unpopular decisions because [cry/whine/blubber] someone might not get re-elected.
Hmmm, I watched that link twice before posting. In fact, I had seen it before but had to go looking again to refresh the memory. The disparity between those words and subsequent posts on this blog has been quite evident — and disappointing. But, if “self-restraint” here is now to include “baggers and nuts do go together” and similar jabs in virtually every post, can management legitimately voice objections if the gloves come off all the way around.? Not my personal style. And not the established policy of this blog. But, unfortunately, when the chains are loosened…….
Unity in the Community meets Sun. Dec. 19 @ 6:30 pm at Buckhall United Methodist Church, 10251 Moore Drive, Manassas. Police Chief Douglas Keen of Manassas City Police Department will meet with us to share his thoughts about law enforcement issues in the City of Manassas. Join us!
@Moon-howler
The only thing I’ll address is the nasty words directed AT that person who wrote some nasty words about people who watch Fox News. Well, in that case, not that I would direct nasty words at him – he deserved it – and if he doesn’t like nasty words being used at him he shouldn’t use them in the first place!
As to the rest, well I feel it is OK for us to say in our opinion Fox News is singled out too often here. It’s just an opinion or observation. If you don’t want us to say that, I’m not sure what can be done about it.
I also agree with what Wolverine said in his post #31. Indeed, as he says if some parties make remarks like that, and then there’s objections when the parties on the other side make remarks back, that doesn’t seem to be very fair, does it? That’s a pattern I’ve seen before – if a liberal makes a nasty remark it is ignored. If a conservative makes a nasty remark they get blasted.
However, in my case I generally refrain from the nasty remarks as I think they are wrong. But if it is being said that conservatives can’t make nasty remarks back to liberals who initiated the nasty remarks/name calling, then I feel that is wrong, even though I probably won’t contribute to the back and forth in that regard.
Moon, feel free to criticize any media outlet you want. I’m not defending Fox. I’m attacking the premises in the survey. I like Fox and Friends more than the others because I find the others more boring. At least Fox has Juan Williams, Stossel, and Geraldo. F&F’s highlghts the headlines and some light news, but their actual news program doesn’t come on until 9. Heck, I’m switching through Today and the Early Show sometimes. I’m just passing time until Glenn Beck comes on at 9 so I can get my talking points and marching orders……
Its not like Gretchen hides her opinion. And Doocy isn’t known to be shy either.
Since the remark was probably the “bagger” term, remember, us “tea baggers” are the ones doing the bagging……..
Moe called no one specifically any name. If nuts and baggers offends, then please police your own ranks. I wish that was the worst thing alluded to about me…just yesterday.
Moe said nothing as bad as some of you all. Do you realize how much this conversation is irritating me? Don’t any of your all dare hold up someone else to a higher standard than you hold yourselves to. Not calling any names at this point.
And remember, Moe wasn’t one of those prancing around in front of the cameras with tea bags hanging from his hat and his clothing yelling I am a tea bagger. Sorry, there are some images hard to erase. We didn’t start the fire……
???? is all I have to say to that. “Don’t any of you dare hold up someone else to a higher standard than you hold yourselves to.”? At least for me, I am holding him up to the same standard actually. And, I did not mention him by name when I said some liberals were throwing around nasty words on here. There’s a pattern where as Wolverine says, liberals are not usually criticized for those remarks, but conservatives are.
And, I really don’t have the time or interest to watch MSNBC so that I can come on here and point out their inaccuracies, as was sort of suggested that I or someone else do. I really don’t watch FOX much either – I haven’t tuned into it in a couple of weeks at the very least.
And no one was accusing you of anything, GR.
And who might the liberals be? This I have to hear.
Truthfully, I don’t think there are any. The ones who were here left.
Social security information
http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2006/506/infocus/p15.htm
Finally, it is obvious this discussion is going nowhere. I don’t expect anything to change on here as a result of it and really don’t think it is worth continuing this particular discussion. I feel Wolverine summed it up well in his post #31 and my subsequent posts may have just clouded the root issue that he addressed.
I’d rather not get into the act of naming names. I realize your comment was made in general and not directed at me, but as it was directed at conservatives and I identify myself as one I addressed it.
@GR
Well my point is, there aren’t people here regularly who I would consider liberals. Starry rarely shows up and when he does, he is often called names. However, he doesn’t make an issue of it.
I had you pegged as a right of center moderate. When did you cross over to the dark side?
@Moon-howler
Starry’s drive by “announcements”, many times, rates a “look a squirrel.” because he is just doing a drive by trolling. Sometimes he has something to say. The squirrel comment comes from a thread long ago when such actions were being described as “squirrelly” by Wolverine.
The Tea bagging. bagger, etc, has been determined that its being used as a sexually derogatory insult and that the original Tea Party protesters were ignorant of that fact.
But, if its ok to use, ok with me…..Us Teahadists know how to take a joke.
I think the whole tea bag thing is absurd. It started absurd and seems like it is finishing in the same way. Most people didn’t know the crude definition. I have fairly salty vocabularly on many subject that people wouldn’t discuss in front of their mothers. It wasn’t part of my vocabularly. In fact, a gay friend told me that it was a gay expression. Almost everyone was ignorant of the fact. That’s why it is silly for people to rise to the bait. And so what. Its silly for anyone to react.
Sort of like it was silly for Christina O’Donnell to comment on the witch remarks. She carved out a legacy for herself by not ignoring the whole witch thing. Now it is comment of the year or something like that.
Just my opinion. But….the conversation goes on with people getting all pissed over it. Shrug. I hope I am not expected to intervene because I won’t. Too silly. Not in my pay grade.
The empire fights back:
Too funny. The Maryland students are probably mad because they are so far down on the list of ‘best party schools.’
I guess Clemente showed them@
The UN wants to regulate the internet……..
http://www.itnews.com.au/News/242051,un-mulls-internet-regulation-options.aspx
Yeah. That’s gonna end well…….
I go out of town for the day and return to find a couple of the anonymous avatar posters have their panties and/or boxers in a knot. Best comment: “Wolve I’ve got that 60 ready locked and cocked and I’m right here on your six.” He or she is like a virtual Rambo breaking virtual bad to the extent one can do that in an anonymous sort of way. For what it’s worth, I chugged a 40 and primed my tater gun, but that just means I’ve got a buzz and a spudzooka, and I’ll cover your six, too … except from 10:00 to 11:30 when my wife and I are watching a movie.
As for Faux News and intelligence, I have to say that Aussie-born Ruppert Murdoch and Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Bin Abdulaziz, the two largest News Corp shareholders, are pretty smart the way they fleece the America sheepeople while making them feel all proud and righteous. Pinheads, patriots, profits … when it comes to Faux, at least 2 of the 3 apply.
I think you’re just jealous you don’t have a hip and trendy anonymous blog handle.
I can help. I’ve thought long and hard about a name which would be appropriately befitting for a junior varsity member of the professional left. Therefore, I propose that henceforth we call you “Debs.” (I thought about Chompsky but you really don’t rate that until you hit the pros and we can watch you on Olbermann)
There – now you can stop feeling left out.
Some have the courage of their convictions and don’t feel the need to hide behind an alias or a cartoon image. The handle “Anonymous Coward” can be traced back to Slashdot in 1999. I almost never agree with Greg on bvbl, but I give him credit for putting his name and his face where his mouth is.
Its a shame that Silence Do Good didn’t have any courage.
How about anybody else here that uses a blog pseudonym? Do you feel that way about all of us? Or just those with whom you disagree?
Richard Saunders was no coward … of course, he died about 200 years before there were blogs and he had to do what he had to do to get published. One of his best quotes was: “Trickery and treachery are the practices of fools that have not the wits enought to be honest.”
Weak Debs, weak. We’ve *got* to work on your trolling skills if you’re going to make it to the next level. The first was brilliant. Cheap, but high mileage and exactly what you want in an opener. Problem is, it’s already played. You’re selling yourself short by continuing to ride that old, tired “coward” horse. C’mon pal, put your back into it! We all want to see you up in the bigs, on Ed or (dare I say it ) Olbermann with your eyes bugged out of your skull and your nostrils flared with spittle flying out of your mouth.
You’ve got it in you. I KNOW you do. Don’t let your friends and neighbors down..
@Moon-howler
Well, maybe I’m on the left side of conservatives or right of center moderate. One of those two sounds right. Come on, all conseratives aren’t the dark side!