From the Huffington Post:

Marty Kaplan

The Lock and Load Rhetoric of American Politics Isn’t Just a Metaphor

I’m not saying that putting a bullseye[sic] * on Arizona Democrat Rep. Gabrielle Giffords’ congressional race – as Sarah Palin did – was an explicit or intentional invitation to violence. Nor am I saying that the “Get on Target for Victory” events held by the guy Giffords beat – “Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly” – was the reason her assassin went after her. This tragedy is still unfolding, and the questions of motive and incitement will be argued about for a long time to come.

But I am saying that the “lock and load”/”take up your arms”rhetoric of American politics isn’t just an overheated metaphor. For years, the language of sports has dominated political journalism, and discourse about hardball and the horserace and the rest of the macho athletic lexicon has been a factor in the trivialization of our public sphere. This has helped dumb down democracy, making a serious national discussion about anything important too wonky for words.

The “second amendment solution,” though, does something worse than make politics a branch of entertainment. It makes it a blood sport. I know politics ain’t beanbag. But words have consequences, rhetoric shapes reality, and much as we like to believe that we are creatures of reason, there is something about our species’ limbic system and lizard brainstems that makes us susceptible to irrational fantasies.

If you’re worried that violent video games may make kids prone to bad behavior; if you think that misogynic and homophobic rap lyrics are dangerous to society; if you believe that a nipple in a Superbowl halftime show is a threat to our moral fabric – then surely you should also fear that the way public and media figures have framed political participation with shooting gallery imagery is just as potentially lethal.

I believe Marty Kaplan just said it all.   You don’t have to go to a national level to feel the sting of exactly what he was talking about.  And it doesn’t all have to do with fire arms metaphors.  The entire bullying tones of politics is felt.  Private citizens are made fun of  just for expressing their opinions.  We all know what I am talking about. 

 I don’t believe any one thing triggered Jarod to go on a rampage.  I will leave that to the experts.  He was obviously psychotic.  However, the vitriolic attacks I have heard for the past 48 hours on Sheriff Dupnik have been shocking.  I have heard major unnamed networks call for his removal and he has been castigated as though he spat on the pearly gates.  What happened to those ideas of Americana like free speech and democratically elected officers?  Dupnik lives in the region and knows a lot more about the pulse and tone of his area than any of us. 

 

*  the graphic on the map targetting Rep. Giffords was a rifle scope, not a bull’s eye.

81 Thoughts to “Lock and Load Rhetoric”

  1. marinm

    I disagree with the idea that somehow amped up rhetoric is causing or leading to violence in the same way that I don’t think that video games, rap music, dungeons and dragons or porn leads to “bad” things.

  2. marin, putting politics aside for a moment, all sorts of studies show that video games, porn and hate-spewing music can be detrimental to some people, especially adolescents. Dungeons and dragons and porn can also be addictive to some people.

    I believe amped up rhetoric cheapens the political system and just has no place. Issues issues issues should be what it is all about. Hopefully, people wise enough to be elected to be our leaders should also be able to exercise some solid judgement.

  3. What if the issue is the non-responsiveness of the elected?
    Is talking about 2nd Amendment solutions extreme? Outstandingly so. But, in some person’s eyes, the government was acting out of control. Rhetoric is just that. It is also the alarm system that something is wrong. Heated rhetoric is not the CAUSE but the SYMPTOM. It is the quiet ones that don’t use rhetoric, that have decided that talking no longer works, and have dropped out of the system.

    Secondly, this type of analogy ie, targeting, etc., when speaking about politics has been commonplace for years. Heck, the term “campaign” is a military term. Its been used by all “sides” in politics since American politics began.

    Kaplan, by talking about only “2nd Amendment solutions” ignores the totality of all the use of “firearms terminology” as usually its only the “right” that has used that term. He is also implying, like many at Huffington, that this rhetoric NOW, is horrible. I believe that the accusations have risen to blood libel, as many on the left have accused many on the right of being the actual cause of the attack. Kaplan seems to ignore the even more inflammatory rhetoric and demagoguery during Bush’s terms in which the left ACTIVELY CALLED FOR HIS ASSASSINATION. Where was his fear THEN about the rhetoric causing actions?

    Want politics to be less of a blood sport? Reduce the scope, size, and power of the federal government and empower local politics.

    As for the Sheriff, he opened his mouth, said stupid things like blaming Limbaugh for causing the shooting, and so he’s been called on it. As a law enforcement officer, with involvement in the jurisdiction, shouldn’t he be the LAST one to be opining on this? Even fellow Sheriffs from Pinal and Cochise counties are questioning why he keeps saying such things.

  4. Is it possible to discuss this issue without using the terms left and right? I am so GD sick of ;eft and right I could hurl. It is irrelevant.

    Dupnik didn’t blame Rush Limbaugh on anything I heard. He might have said Rush Limbaugh was a loud mouth, inflammatory fool who makes millions off of stirring people up. If he said that, I would be the first to agree with him.

    In fact, show me the sentence or the video where Sheriff Dupnik said Rush limbaugh caused the shootings. I do not thing such a statement exists.

    Law enforcement gives an opinon all the time. How about old Sheriff Joe? He certainly has not been at a loss for words, including having a lot to say about SB 1070. Why is it Sheriff Joe can speak and yet you want to silence Dupnik?

    I have seen those good old boys from some of the surrounding counties. Now are people prevented from having different points of view?

    The left did not actively call for Bush’s assassination. Perhaps certain individuals did and they are wrong. Dead wrong. I don’t like the left being blanketed like that.

    People have different political opinions and we all live in the same nation. We are going to have to learn to co-exist without using politics of personal destruction.

  5. marinm

    @Moon-howler

    You and I may be turned off by “attack ads” that politico’s use but they keep pumping them out? Why? Because they work. People like them. People want to see them. Thinking that the ‘tone’ will or should change is naive (not you).

    I agree with Cargo here. We want the ‘tone’ different? Let’s scale back the power of government and it’s reach. When government can have so much control, so much power, and so much reach then it becomes logical to manipulate government and the debate to control the government that controls everything.

    I really don’t see anything changing. The new gun laws being talked about won’t happen. The new peasant-free zones around Congressperson’s won’t happen. The tone of politics haven’t changed.

    Speaking of guns. Sales of handguns in AZ jumped 60% today. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-11/glock-pistol-sales-surge-in-aftermath-of-shooting-of-arizona-s-giffords.html Congress even mentions guns and sales soar.

  6. marinm

    “The kind of rhetoric that flows from people like Rush Limbaugh, in my judgment he is irresponsible, uses partial information, sometimes wrong information,” Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said today. “[Limbaugh] attacks people, angers them against government, angers them against elected officials and that kind of behavior in my opinion is not without consequences.” – ABCNews

  7. I saw that gun sales in AZ had jumped 60%. I am not even sure what I think or want to say about that. Why do you think that happened, Marin? It wasn’t just gun sales, it was glock sales like the one used by Jarod.

    I am questioning where he got the $500 bucks to even buy it or his ammo.

    I see nothing wrong with what ABC news said. They did not blame anyone for the shooting. They are addressing the hateful language used by Slime…errr Limbaugh. Sorry. I have thought he was king of the A-holes for 20 years. I think his title is about to be taken away by Beck though.

  8. marinm

    It’s just fear of a ban. That model (Glock 19) is already pretty popular for concealed carry. It’s not very large (considered a compact but larger than the sub-compact 9mm I can ankle carry). I can already see shortages of the extended mag’s to make sure people have them and are grandfathered just in case a ban were to occur.

    I have no position on Rush. Never felt a need to listen to him.

    Overall I think that people understand it wasn’t a gun or access to a gun that did this horrible thing. It was a nutjob.

  9. Elena

    When I told someone that a congresswoman had been shot, their first question was “well, was it Republican or a Democrat” I said “what does it matter for G-d’s sake” . When I said it was a Democrat, the reaction was well, good, one less democrat. This person is mostly a caring person, but there has been such a dehumanization by people like Rush, Palin, and so many others, that there is a disconnect between the very idea that we are all Americans. I disliked Bush’s policy on Iraq, FISA, torture, and a whole host of other issues, but never, never did I think his intent was to harm his country.

    Who called for Bush’s assassination? What mainstream media person did such a thing? I don’t recall there EVER being the orchestrated effort to target the republicans in such a vidious manner, constantly, ad nauseum like the extreme right has done to all democrats.

    I think the military industrial complex is WAY out of control, but you don’t see me calling for the blood of my fellow americans do you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????? No, you don’t.

    Good Lord, Palin practically called Obama a terrorist sympathizer during the election, what kind of human being says inflamatory rhetoric like that?

  10. “When you’re talking to a person who is unstable to begin with and they are motivated in some cases by the rhetoric that they hear and they see. And, in general terms, that is why I say that people who make a living preaching hate, to hate the government, be angry at the government, destroy the government, to do it to politicians, elected officials and so forth, have some responsibility. Even though it may be free speech, I don’t think it goes without some responsibility and some consequences.” quote by Dupnik.

    So far, Loughner hasn’t spoken about his motives AT ALL. So, Dupnik’s connections are flimsy. He is trying to connect talk radio, to those that preach hate. And since the genuine hate preachers have a very small audience, I don’t think he actually means the KKK, etc. Unless, he IS talking about the speech coming from the left that advocates violence…..I mean, that is apparently, such as it is, Loughner’s political leanings….

    assassination chic: http://michellemalkin.com/2008/06/04/assassination-fascination/

    The point is that the Left calls for violence, uses violence, and applauds violence, constantly, and then whenever ANYONE does stuff like Loughner did, blames it on the right. The Left CONSTANTLY trumpets the ongoing “threat” of the right, yet, we never see any violence from the right. Yes, yes, I know, that murderer that shot the abortion doctor is supposed to be a rightwing terrorist…..anybody else? The politicians and the pundits on the left constantly call for civility, yet do not use it. Their definition of “civility” is “Don’t criticize or point out the hypocrisy of the left.”

    Moon, you don’t like “labels” but its the only way to describe it, especially when speaking about the “professional” political class and the media. YOU may be more complex, but, then, we’re not talking about you……You don’t do this.

  11. Elena

    This is the kind of talk we use to hear and read about all the time, this was the environment in PWC when the immigration debate was at its peak. THIS is NOT the way good policy is formed, in fact, this is the process in which terrible policy is created, out of fear. We are damn lucky in PWC that we stopped this madness before it got totally out of control. THIS kind of tenor is what the Sherrif is talking about.

    1. Advocator said on 21 May 2008 at 8:38 am:
    The time for talking, writing, and pleading with our elected leaders to do the right thing on this issue is rapidly coming to an end.

    1. Advocator said on 16 May 2008 at 10:18 am:
    Buy guns and ammo during the hiatus Mando. They scare the $hit out of liberal politicians, fat broads, and illegal invaders.

    1. Robert L. Duecaster said on 17 Dec 2008 at 4:42 pm: Flag comment
    With crimes like these being perpetuated in our backyards it’s easy to revile and target illegal aliens as a group and blame them for societal ills plaguing our community. As I’ve said many times before, they are just the manifestation of policies conceived and issued by politicians of both parties, encouraged and abetted by the employers of cheap labor.
    Any sane person could anticipate that the influx of large numbers of impoverished people into our country by illegal means would result in crimes perpetrated against the citizens of the communities they infest. But their employers and those politicians anticipating their future votes are willing to sacrifice the safety and security of their current constituents for the benefits the politicians believe they will reap by allowing the invasion. The politicians and employers are assisted in this endeavor by those who cater to the illegals, i.e., the real estate agents who pander to them, the restauranteurs who cater to them, the clergy who minister to them, and the teachers who must be hired to teach their progeny. These are the people who deserve our wrath. Only traitors hire illegal aliens. Only traitors sell them houses. Only traitors lend them money. Only traitors register them to vote. Only traitors want to “internationalize” our state and nation. Those traitors are our true enemies. Deal with them and the illegals will disappear like rats deprived of their source of garbage.

  12. silkie

    Some reflections:

    “The gun itself was purchased by Mr. Loughner at a sporting goods store that followed the bare-minimum federal background check, which only flags felons, people found to be a danger to themselves or others, or those under a restraining order. Mr. Loughner was rejected by the military for failing a drug test, and had five run-ins with the Pima Community College police before being suspended for disruptive activity.”

    My family, avid gun owners and collectors have never objected to a thorough background to buy a gun. They are all too aware of the danger of a weapon in the wrong hands. Like a drug test at work – keeps you safe from users.

    There have been several ‘quotes’ tossed about. Here are a few more. No ‘credit’ has been given on purpose.

    “I hope that’s not where we’re going, but you know if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take (unnamed senator).”

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life.”

    ”Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don’t think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.”

    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”

    “Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and the keystone under independence.”

    ”I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I’m wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. … No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out.”

  13. Slowpoke Rodriguez

    Elena :
    Who called for Bush’s assisantion? What mainstream media person did such a thing? I don’t recall there EVER being the orchestrated effort to target the republicans in such a vidious manner, constantly, ad nauseum like the extreme right has done to all democrats.

    Selective hearing. “What? I didn’t hear/see ANYTHING!!!”

  14. Slowpoke Rodriguez

    @Cato the Elder
    Oh, that’s an easy one. They’ll say it was doctored….or listen to it then immediately deny they heard it.

  15. Slowpoke Rodriguez

    @Elena

    Post #11. I didn’t hear or see any of that!

  16. Pat.Herve

    People like them. – it is not that people like them, it is that people react to them.

    Surprising is that with all the concealed carry in AZ, I have not heard that a single shot was fired by anyone else (or another gun drawn). I do not think you even need a permit to conceal carry in AZ.

  17. Cato the Elder :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tFukrilZOk

    that is rather old footage and just as unacceptable as the things we are talking about today. That is heinous speech. Air America folded didn’t it?

    I hate to be old fashioned but I don’t give a rat’s ass WHO is being inappropriate. They need to stop.

    I am so disgusted after listening to Beck today. He was irrelevant and mimicked any attempts by people to elevate the rhetoric, even a tiny bit. He is truly a horse’s ass. I have never been more convinced than today and yesterday.

  18. Slowpoke, who is this ‘they’ you keep referring to? Are you referring to Elena and me?

  19. Pat, I wondered about that myself. At first we heard someone shot back, then I didn’t hear it again.

    I also wondered where Jarod got the money to buy a new glock for $500. He was unemployed.

  20. silkie

    What is moderation????

  21. juturna

    Gun analogies are as old as dirt. So is bullying. Spewing hatred and calling it talk radio is legal but doesn’t contribute much.

  22. Cato the Elder

    @Moon-howler

    Why, yes. Yes it is. And I fully support the rights of those to engage in it, BTW.

    The tone of our political rhetoric has not changed for almost 250 years. In fact, it’s gotten milder if anything. Instead of one Senator getting his head bashed in with a cane by another while yet another held those trying to assist at gunpoint we now have Palin with “reload” and other associated loudmouths. Political operations are constantly employing combat or violent sports related metaphors. Targeted districts, war rooms, rapid response, etc.. It’s because of who we are and where we came from. This country was born of violent struggle. We fought with everyone we could get our hands on. When we ran out of external enemies we fought amongst ourselves.

    Seriously, can you name a contiguous 20 year period where our military wasn’t seriously engaged in some kind of conflict? Even our industrial and technological innovations were driven by warfare considerations. Our childhood heroes were cowboys with sixguns strapped to their hips whose popularity was levered by how many men they had killed, or soldiers that killed 300 Japs in the Pacific or whatnot. We grew up playing cowboys and indians with cap pistols, not astro-physicists and chemical engineers with graphing calculators. Politicians know this and they design their rhetoric to push all those buttons. We don’t have a welfare state, we have a warfare state.

    Look, I’m no philosopher, but I do know we are, on some level, a culture of violence. Oh sure, we’re a little more polished around the edges today but let’s face it – this is the same old sh_t that’s been going on since the founding. I’m not saying all this as some kind of indictment. I’m just saying – it is what it is, and there is nothing new under the sun. This didn’t start with Palin, Angle, Bachmann, etc.. and it won’t end when they’re dead and gone, either.

    One tendency I notice in intelligent people (like liberals – how’s that for a backhanded compliment?) is that there is a deep need to rationalize human behavior. They try to draw straight lines between environmental factors and actions, even where such lines are improbable. We even come up with new theories like fractals and chaos in an attempt to explain events which are inexplicable, bending data around theory until it makes sense. This in turn leads to the idea that there must, must be a rational explanation for behaviors, and that if we can just manipulate the environment in exactly the right way we can eliminate undesirable behaviors. Hence the “lizard brain” characterization by Mr. Kaplan. You see, he has to believe that something in the environment is causal to the behavior (overheated rhetoric in this case), otherwise he has to revisit his entire progressive belief structure, and that’s just not a comfortable place for most people. We’re driven to find some rational explanation for events and behaviors, and if one doesn’t exist we’ll manufacture one because we have to.

    Let me ask you a question. Do you honestly believe that you could be driven to murder by something you heard on the radio? Even someone you hate. Can a television talking head control your actions or thoughts?

    I’ll leave you with this, and invite you to reflect on it. This was from the New York Times v. Sullivan ruling, penned by William Brennan (a liberal hero) where he quotes Justice Louis Brandeis (another liberal hero):

    “Those who won our independence believed . . . that public discussion is a political duty; and that this should be a fundamental principle of the American government. They recognized the risks to which all human institutions are subject. But they knew that order cannot be secured merely through fear of punishment for its infraction; that it is hazardous to discourage thought, hope and imagination; that fear breeds repression; that repression breeds hate; that hate menaces stable government; that the path of safety lies in the opportunity to discuss freely supposed grievances and proposed remedies; and that the fitting remedy for evil counsels is good ones. Believing in the power of reason as applied through public discussion, they eschewed silence coerced by law – the argument of force in its worst form. Recognizing the occasional tyrannies of governing majorities, they amended the Constitution so that free speech and assembly should be guaranteed.

    Thus we consider this case against the background of a profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open, and that it may well include vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials.”

  23. Elena

    Welcome Silkie, very frightening quotes.

  24. Elena

    Slowpoke Rodriguez :@Elena
    Post #11. I didn’t hear or see any of that!

    I guess you must not have been reading BVBL or any comment section in any paper when a story with a hispanic surname was involved.

  25. Elena

    Cato,
    I am actually surprised that you have disconnected words from action. Joseph Goebbels was a genius at twisting and turning reality, please, don’t be so naive to think that words from powerful people have no impact, history has shown us otherwise, time and time again.

  26. Cato the Elder

    Elena :
    Welcome Silkie, very frightening quotes.

    Which ones, Elena? The one from Ben Franklin, the one from JFK, or the one often (mis)attributed to George Washington?

  27. Elena

    Cato,
    Ummm, Orson Wells, War of the Worlds, is that ringing any bells about what power the radio can have.

    Oh, and I admit, I only looked up one quote, the one by Glenn Beck talking about murdering michael moore.

  28. Cato the Elder

    Yeah, the Beck one is pretty vile.

  29. Cato, the problem is, Kaplan didn’t say that violent talk or rude talk caused murder. I believe he strongly implied that it cheapened politics and made for disagreeable times and could potentially be lethal.

    I am not one of those people who does the binary thinking stuff. That is why I borrowed Mr. Kaplan’s essay. I thought he called for more civil discourse.

    Nowadays, the vileness doesn’t just happen at election time. There is a full course meal 24 hours a day. And yes, there is now more of it because we have 200 TV channels and 6 round the clock ‘news’ stations.

    It would be nice to turn it all off. However, I tried that. I didn’t like what I saw when I started paying attention.

  30. Bear

    The extreme Rhetoric from either the left or right isn’t the biggest problem. While all of this is going on there is no business being conducted for the country. We have to fix the broken Congress who is filled mostly with people who spend 24 hours a day planning on how they will improve their job and future and couldn’t care less about the people who have elected them! We can complain about the President or Supreme Court but the Congress is core of our democracy and without them , nothing happens. I don’t know the answer (I wish I did). We have to get everyone in the country educated in the political process and as concerned as we are about our representation and just maybe together we can elect people who want to do the job we want them to do.

  31. I would LOVE to know the full context of the Beck quote seeing as how he has a REALLY twisted sense of humor, and you cannot get that through the written word.

    Moon is right. The vileness doesn’t happen just at election….oh, wait, we’re on permanent election time. Today’s politicians learned from Clinton to ALWAYS be on campaign, as did the media that assists the Democrats in getting elected. Olberman is one of the worst hypocrites.

    Here’s the quote from Beck with some missing parts added:

    Would you kill someone for that?…I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore…I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it,…No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out. Is this wrong? I stopped wearing my What Would Jesus — band — Do, and I’ve lost all sense of right and wrong now. I used to be able to say, ‘Yeah, I’d kill Michael Moore,’ and then I’d see the little band: What Would Jesus Do? And then I’d realize, ‘Oh, you wouldn’t kill Michael Moore. Or at least you wouldn’t choke him to death.’ And you know, well, I’m not sure.

    Really? THIS is supposed to be an actual threat where he’s making fun of himself not wearing a WWJD band and losing all sense of right and wrong? And what is that first question an answer to? Beck has a very dark twisted sense of the absurd and is a shock jock.

    However, further research shows that this is, apparently, only one of two “threats” of violence, the other being a wish to beat Charles Rangel with a shovel.

    http://wireupdate.com/wires/14009/the-complete-history-of-violent-rhetoric-in-glenn-becks-33-years-of-broadcasting/

    For “Mr Countdown,” as of January 11th’s show it will have been 2,064 days since Glenn made his ‘death fantasy’ comments on the air. In the 294 weeks since there have been absolutely ZERO instances of Glenn Beck fans acting out in violence against Michael Moore, or anyone connected to Michael Moore. And to this author’s knowledge there have been absolutely ZERO instances of Glenn Beck fans acting on this comment or any other comment Glenn has made in his 33 years of broadcasting against anyone in the political theater.
    The typical Glenn Beck fan probably doesn’t even remember Glenn making this off-color joke seeing it was 49,536 hours or 2,972,160 minutes ago.
    Update: I have been informed that Glenn Beck has also said he wanted to beat Rep. Charles Rangel with a shovel on March 9, 2001. A quick Google search has uncovered that he too hasn’t been hurt by a Glenn Beck fan in the 9 years since.

    If we need “gotcha” about who has threatened whom, I’m unemployed and could fill the bandwidth with quotes. But that’s not what the deal is….
    Moon is right…..rhetoric is heated. In the Arizona case, its completely lost any semblance of sanity by many on the left. Will we ever have “civil” discourse in this country? Sure! We just had a major election that peacefully changed the course of our entire nation. Lets put this into perspective. Just as we have to put into perspective that we have an estimated 70-150 million guns in this country, an uncounted number of crazy people, and yet, shootings like this are RARE. That is why they make the news.

    The reason that you are seeing more vitriol is that those that are offended by accusations of causing this horrible mess no longer suck it up. When major politicians and media outlets accuse the ideas and concerns of thousands, if not millions, of people being the cause of a massacre, of accusing them of being violent and racist, don’t be surprised that they fight back. The old narrative is gone, no matter how certain elements want to bring it back.

  32. Here’s another Beck quote that might make you feel better:

    I say on the air all time, “if you take what I say as gospel, you’re an idiot.”

  33. @Bear
    Well said, though gridlock is good. It forces them to work for it.

  34. Starryflights

    I think it is time for liberals to begin exercising our second amendments as well. If the right wants to settle our political disputes violently, then so be it. We have a right to defend ourselves.

  35. hello

    Way to insight violence there Starry! If someone from the left now shoots someone we know who to blame. idiot.

  36. Starry, from what I’ve seen, its you guys STARTING the violence, sooooo……whatever, nevermind

  37. marinm

    On the upside, more people and outlets are coming out and admitting that Palin and her map wasn’t at fault. 🙂

    Starry, if you want a gun and want to learn how to use it. Feel free to contact a few conservatives and liberals on here. I have 0 objection to you having your personal arsenal. Just carry responsibly.

  38. Cargo, I think part of the problem is that say 25 years ago, people who wanted to obsess about politics at least had to read. They had to buy their own newpapers, magazines and books. Now all one has to do is turn on a computer, a TV or a radio and they have continual, non-stop, free access to any kind of rhetoric one desires. That makes arm chair warriors out of all sorts of people who might otherwise not be interested.

    Now just about anyone thinks they are able to read and interpret the Constitution, forgetting that there is more to it than just reading. Years of law school and practice go into being a Constitutional lawyer.

  39. @Cargo re Beck

    You know, I don’t want to remove Beck from the air. I do think that Roger Ailes needs to rein him in more. In fact, I think that has already happened. Beck is not nearly as audacious as he was when he first filled the 5 pm time slot of Faux News.

    However, Beck has acquired a real cult following. He talks to people who perhaps no one else listens to and makes them feel important. I listen to Beck often. I told one of his followers that I listen to him, not because I like him but because I feel like as a blogger, I need to keep an eye on him. He is inflammatory (self professed) and influential.

    That is all I said about him and that person said ‘well you just keep an eye on us kool aid drinkers. ‘ She no longer speaks to me.

    Now that is getting real cultish to me. This happened before the Tucson Massacre.

    Since the Massacre, Beck has really yelled and carried on at some mythological enemy. I found him very offensive. He also makes up crap.

  40. Slowpoke Rodriguez

    Starryflights :
    I think it is time for liberals to begin exercising our second amendments as well. If the right wants to settle our political disputes violently, then so be it. We have a right to defend ourselves.

    @Starryflights
    I think i’m aroused. You play games with my feelings!

  41. Elena

    How would Congresswoman Giffords feels, or her family, or anyone else harmed by this mentally unstable young man, if they were to read some of the comments on this thread( I am including Starry in this point)?

    Having a call for civility and exchange of ideas instead of personal attacks is always a postive turn of events, who would argue that???????????????? Moon and I will keep saying this, over and over, NO ONE is blaming the over the top rhetoric specifcially for this horrible violent tragedy, but to IGNORE this as an opportunity to come together, and recongize that although we may have different opinions, it doesn’t require using violent imagery to demonzie one another to get our points across.

  42. What some of you don’t understand is that to my knowledge, no one has said Sarah Palin is at fault. No one has said her map is at fault for this shooting. What has been said is that maps like with rife scope motifs create an atmosphere that has no place in American politics. The potential for sending the wrong message is there.

    It creates a tone and an environment that is susceptible to misunderstanding, especially by people who take these issues literally; the binary thinkers of society who only see things in black and white.

    Any time you address the public you need to consider your audience and who might be sitting in that audience. I don’t care if you are a professor, a politician, blogger or whoever.

  43. If someone has something definitive by a liberal that someone has ever heard of, then post it. I dont consider Dupnik’s remarks to be blaming. That isn’t what he said. Dupnik is coming off of the immigration wars. He knows what has been said and what hasn’t been said.

  44. hello

    Moon-howler :What some of you don’t understand is that to my knowledge, no one has said Sarah Palin is at fault. No one has said her map is at fault for this shooting. What has been said is that maps like with rife scope motifs create an atmosphere that has no place in American politics. The potential for sending the wrong message is there.
    It creates a tone and an environment that is susceptible to misunderstanding, especially by people who take these issues literally; the binary thinkers of society who only see things in black and white.
    Any time you address the public you need to consider your audience and who might be sitting in that audience. I don’t care if you are a professor, a politician, or whoever.

    I can see your argument there Moon but at the same time why doesn’t any of the MSM and/or Huffington, Daily Kos, Media Matters etc. ever mention the left doing the same thing long before Palin ever came around?

    For example, the DLC’s site with their “Targeting Strategy” showing in which they show a map with ACTUAL TARGETS on the states in which they want to highlight?

    They even had the following caption on just below their “Targeting Strategy” map stating (CAPS not mine, theirs for pure emphasis but lets not talk about that I suppose)

    “BEHIND ENEMY LINES: President Bush won 9 states by single-digit margins. Those states should be ripe targets for Democrats.”

    http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2011/01/sarah-palins-map.html

    In that same link you will see the DCCC’s site had a map also, WITH TARGETS on it!!!! If the left wants a single ounce of credibility on this subject then first start by pointing out your very own faults. Otherwise, shut the hell up!

  45. Did you just tell me to shut the hell up?

    Cut the pissing contest. Bad behavior is bad behavior.

    I am tired of adults acting like children. He did it. No she did it worse. No he did it first. There should be a contest for the biggest adult child and the case of victim mentality.

    The real victims are in the hospital or dead. I left out another set. Jarod’s parents who will forever be haunted by the sense of what they could have done to prevent their child from committing this heinous act. They too have lost a child.

    To those who do not have adult children, there is very little you can do unless an adult child chooses to comply.

  46. Slowpoke Rodriguez

    silkie :What is moderation????

    I think of it as “home” 🙂

  47. hello

    No Moon, I did not tell you to shut the hell up. I’m speaking to the talking heads that point at this but ignore that… example would be blaming Palin and her ‘target map’ for this event by Krugman and his ilk. If your going to do that they why not call out your own party?

    I can see someone saying that Palin’s map was wrong, if they just pointed out that the DLC and DCCC did the same exact thing before her. They used the same exact technique as a tried and true method of pointing out states, districts, counties that they want to highlight in a specific election cycle way before Palin ever did. If they are going to slam her for it while at the same time excusing their own part for doing it before then Houston, we have a problem.

    I agree 100%, the real victims are in the hospital and/or dead. Focus on that, some nut shot them. But if your going to go after Palin, someone who isn’t even an elected official, for their rhetoric or some stupid map that this guy has never even seen, then why not go after our current President’s rhetoric (“if they bring a knife we bring a gun”, or, “we must punish our enemies”).

    If rhetoric is to blame (which it’s not) then both sides are to blame. To point a finger at one side and not call out your own, no matter where you stand, is the true definition of “adults acting like children” period!

  48. hello

    Slowpoke Rodriguez :

    silkie :What is moderation????

    I think of it as “home”

    Oh Slow… don’t think your going to come here and take my title 🙂 (that was an attempt at humor Moon, please don’t put baby back in the corner). Once went 5 or 6 months in ‘moderation’. But it did teach me a few very valuable lessons:

    1.) Don’t call people names.
    2.) Don’t use hate speech with nonsensical partisan rhetoric.
    3.) Above all else, don’t cast light on partisan hypocrisy.

  49. hello

    Moon, just to show that that was all in fun, here are a few of my favorite funny songs from my all time favorite movies staring non other than Alec Baldwin, Sean Penn, Tim Robbins, George Clooney, Martin Sheen, Jeane Garofalo, Michael Moore and many many others…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R5dk0JY2xc

    Best song from this movie (kind of long but well worth it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU9Uwhjlog8&feature=related

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