Open thread for the weekend.
211 Thoughts to “Open Thread………………………………………Friday, Jan. 14”
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Krugman is in the tank for regulating the industry (doesn’t matter which industry) as much as possible. Deregulation would be something he is not a fan of. He’s pretty pro-New Deal.
I think you can make a map with care bears instead of targets and people will still complain about civility.
@marin,
I am in the tank for some industry regulation. I think what the pres is doing is good. If it is a needed regulation, one thing. If it is a pain and not doing what it was intended to do, get rid of it.
Surely you don’t believe all industry should be deregulated?
The question is too broad to really answer with a yes or no.
For example a regulation saying toss back female fish or fish under a certain size is a good idea and a “good regulation”. Mandating a fishing Captain to go through a EEO/Sexual Harassment training as a condition of a fishing license is not. (This is a made up example)
Increased costs of a regulated industry might be paid by the company at the point of origin but in reality the cost is channeled to the end customer. So, a regulation saying IBM needs to use less lead on a circuitboard is passed to the consumer as a higher costing motherboard.
So, my answer would be. Let’s really look at a proposed regulation and think about it in the context of if we were to go down to the local 7-11 and ask a handful of people what they thought of the idea…what would Joe Sixpack say about it? Does it make sense? Does it achieve what we want it to achieve? Who will be hurt by this regulation? What is the cost to economic growth? How many people will be laid off by proposing this regulation?
So, I’m all for a spoon full of common sense. 🙂
@marin, I think common sense sounds good while at the same time admitting I don’t always know the bigger picture or special components of problems.
Man is over driven by greed rather than common sense, however.
Greed is just another way of saying highly motivated. Greed isn’t a bad thing.
@marin,
I thought you might say that. There is a huge difference in motivation and greed. Greed is acquisitiveness without regard for others.
Greed is acquisitiveness without regard for others.
I thought that was the definition of theft….or taxation. 😉
german police pick up drunken owl!
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,740157,00.html
Perception is never the reality. Too many are portrayed by biased presenters. One has to check out the full story, not just that portrayed in the media.
I’m not going to go searching the web again. If you say Palin is wrong, fine. If you don’t want to see what’s happening in the media, fine. No, Krugman did not say that Palin pulled the trigger. But he, and others, have blamed her and others on the right for either inciting violence, creating a “climate of hate”, or worse.
Never mind. Forget it.
Moon,
One thing I can not figure out is why Sarah Palin’s detractors appear to hate her so much. Really. I think she scares the heck out of the left, in much the same way that Obama scares the heck out of the right. Fear can make people do and say funny things. And yet, I can’t put my finger on a single position or statement that could explain the passionate, and at times irrational attention she has received from the left. Is she “more conservative” than any other potential leader on the right? Is it because she’s attractive? Is it because she’s a dedicated wife and mother? what is it? I asked some of my Boston kin. They couldn’t give me one good reason. They said, “it’s her positions”. When I asked which one, they couldn’t give me one. I responded, “She’s a pro-life, pro-2nd ammendment, pro-family, pro-energy independence, fiscal conservative, who looks to the Constitution to define the power of government, which one of those positions scares you?” Still nothing. I asked if they had ever read one of her books, or heard her speak beyond a few sound-bites on the news. No one had.
My point is, they had formed their entire opinion based on what the image media on the left had wanted to portray. Blogs are media too.
I am not saying we shouldn’t oppose someone’s positions, if they are counter to our own. I oppose pretty much every part of our current President’s agenda, and I would be happy to debate it in whole or in part. While I do think he sincerely thought his experience was sufficient for the job, I don’t believe it was. I think being the Chief Executive of a State for two years constitutes more relevant experience than 2.5 years as a Senator. But “experience” and “qualifications” are two different things. But, I’ll no longer attack the man, just his policies. When you hit your thumb with a hammer, does cursing really make it feel better, or is it just a reaction to pain?
http://manassas.patch.com/articles/delegate-wants-manassas-vre-riders-to-pay-more
Oh, good grief!
@Steve Thomas
“When you hit your thumb with a hammer, does cursing really make it feel better, or is it just a reaction to pain?”
Actually Mythbusters showed plausible evidence that cursing does help.
Everything you said….very well said, sir.
Cargo, yes. If you are you, what some of these people are saying must sound ok. If you are me, it sounds horrible. When someone stands up hollering some of the things I have heard routinely…in other words, things that vilify me and paint a picture of someone who has some of my beliefs as someone who in NOT patriot, not a good American, and someone who is living off the system, well….that is an atmosphere of hate. I feel hated.
Now I don’t give a crap what Rush Limbaugh thinks of me (or Sean Hannity or Glenn Beck et al. But if you hear it day after day after day, it gets to you. When people running for office do it, it isn’t a bit better.
Truly, it is non stop.
Steve, I don’t hate Palin as a person. I just don’t like her. I can tell you why *I* don’t like her. More importantly, I can tell you why I don’t think she should be VP or Pres. What I think of her personally is sort of irrelevant. But, here it goes.
Obviously I don’t like her politics overall. But I could pull about about 100 other people I feel that way about out of both parties. It is mainly her delivery system. The winking and the cheap shots she took, all built on sound bytes just grated. Ex. The gouging over the telepromptor–what president in modern times has time to memorize speeches. Geez. They all use a telepromptor. The gouging was just common. Cutesy doesn’t cut it with me.
Other issues-she makes up excuses for why this or that happened. She makes up excuses for her kids. Anyone who knows me will tell you that gets you some demerits from me. She has perpetual victim mentality. Her kids are picked on, the lame-stream media (which is no lamer than some of the links people leave here.) did such and such to her, blah blah blah. She simply takes no personal responsibility for anything. She picked a fight with Mrs. Bush. What a moronic thing to do.
She is right, everyone else is wrong. Furthermore, Steve, you are closer to being ready to assume the job of president than she is. She isn’t presidential material. She is pretty. She has cute kids. She is perky. She might be fun to drink beer with is she toned down her shriek. But she just isn’t presidential material, which is my own opinion. Bring back that old blue blood George Bush for 8 more years before you do that to me.
Joe Lieberman is retiring next year.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/senate/joe-lieberman-to-retire-in-201.html?hpid=topnews
That’s a myth that the right likes to perpetuate. It’s not Sarah Palin that the left hates so much as the fact that a faction of the Republican party seems to think that a quitter who was Governor of one of the least populated states in the country and a person who can’t formulate a coherent thought (soundbites don’t count) was foisted off as Presidential material. Your party likes to denigrate educated people with labels such as “east coast or educated elites”. We – liberals, progressives, moderates (or Socialists, Communists, Pinkos, or whatever slur one wants to apply) see that the world is complicated and our country’s position in it at times precarious and to be competitive we want someone with intelligence enough to lead. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – Sarah P. is a physically attractive airhead. If she went without make-up, wore a pantsuit, cut her hair, and held the same strident positions, most of the Tea Party old male geezers would call her a bitch, harpy, femi-Nazi, etc. Fear is basically a conservative trait. Progressives aren’t so fearful of the future – unless it’s left in the hands of a total nincompoop.
@Censored:
What censored said. Cheer. Thumbs up. Like.
M-h, for the life of me I can’t understand the need to defend Sarah Palin as a viable candidate for the Presidency. I think she’s found her niche as an entertainer for both people with similar views and the opposition – or as a general advocate for Alaska tourism. Those are areas where catch-phrases, soundbites, jingoism pay off. At this point she probably wouldn’t want to be confined by the reduction in salary by being Prez. Advocating for her to be Prez is giving up on this country – saying that we have a paucity of ideas and lack the fortitude to do the hard work necessary to solve our problems. It’s giving in to the flashiest solution and expecting fantastic results. That may be how reality tv works, but not reality. There are other better conservatives out there – go find them, people!
Out of curiosity, just what do you supporters of Palin think that a Presidency of hers would be like? Why her and not Huckabee, Romney, or some other candidate?
http://patch.com/articles/manassas-host-gang-prevention-summit
A good meeting – the key word being “prevention”. As Det. Colgan noted,
“we aren’t going to arrest ourselves out of this”.
http://manassas.patch.com/articles/manassas-host-gang-prevention-summit
Addendum: Palin dishes it out continually and then can’t take it. I just finished listening to Hannity do a post mortem of his own show and he was talking to Juan Williams, a good moderate.
I thought I was listening to a middle school argument. Sean was just full of yes but…they do it first. Obama did it. Its tiresome. As Americans, we are better than this. We don’t pick, goad, and run away, and ‘he did it first’ just doesn’t cut it.
There are political differences. Let’s work on those issues. Let’s discuss them like adults.
Sarah Palin sucks the air out of the room for the other possible GOP
candidates. (Tim Pawlenty asked a reporter if the reporter had ever asked
Sarah Palin what she thought of the last Tim Pawlenty interview or what
she thought of the way Pawlenty dressed). Palin 24/7 can get old for the unconverted.
Big Dog, why do you think other candidates are so intimidated or even care what her opinions are?
Like Sarah or not, she is hot copy, and even if she is simply famous
for being famous, she draws attention. Any internet news provider
will tell you that a Palin story, about anything, will outdraw a Pawlenty,
Romney or Newt story over 2-to-1. She is the alpha in the room
for anyone else seeking the GOP nomination. She knows how to
touch nerves and she isn’t going to go away anytime soon.
@Big Dog,
Well, there is certainly no argument against what you just said. I would watch her over those 3 also. Its sort of like turning your head when passing an accident.
It won’t sustain her to the prize though. She was an excellent spokesperson for her state. She should capitalize on that and stay rich and sassy.
She doesn’t know how to back off things. She has to get the last word. She won’t be president, IMHO. And if she is…well….it will sure be entertaining.
http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/20110/01/18/the-roots-of-overheated-rhetoric/?hp
An interesting perspective.
M-H, Stephen Colbert did a great monologue on Palin last night.
Mika Brzezinski Experiences Palin Fatigue
“Yes, Sarah Palin’s speeches are coded talking points mixed in with words
picked at random from a thesaurus.”
@Censored bybvbl
Censored, Please defend this assertion: “Fear is basically a conservative trait”…or at least “un-pack”it a bit.
@Moon-howler
“Steve, you are closer to being ready to assume the job of president than she is.”
Moon, I do appreciate the endorsement, but to paraphrase a recent local political story; I may run for office one day, but I am not running for that office.
Ok, if I read your comments correctly, you don’t believe Palin has the “Style” required to be President, ie. she doesn’t enspire you as leader. Fair enough. I guess it’s a matter of taste. I believe that she appeals to a certain segment of voters because they view her as “one of them”, whereas many who are put off by President Obama because they percieve him as an “elitist”. She went to a state college, raised a large family, including a special needs child, has had to deal with a teen-aged daughter getting pregnant by an immature boy, married a working class man, likes camping, hunting, fishing. Obama, with the Ivy-league education, lawyer/academic/community organizer image, and the perception that his approach to governance is “old-school Chicago machine” doesn’t sit well with these very same folks. Is it any wonder that in a country where Paris Hilton, Snookie, and the rest of the crew from the Jersey Shore are held up as pop-culture icons, we place so much importance on “image” and “style”?
While I think Palin is a potential candidate, and could be an effective President, (if she staffs her administration with competent people, but this is true of any president), I don’t think she will get the nomination. She has become as much a “pop-icon” as she is a politico.
Oh, and for the record, I am supporting Pawlenty. If Palin runs and gets the nomination, she will have my full support as my party’s nominee.
Liberals have to fix things. They always seem to over-do it. Conservatives have to have enemies which is part of the fear thing. When the Berlin Wall came down, the first words out of my mouth, as a moderate was, who are they going to hate now?
@Steve
I would agree with you about the style stuff. I think that was the big drawing card with George Bush with some folks. He sounded like them. It also explains why people felt like they had to hold their nose to vote for John Kerry. Forget issues. I definitely think the ‘(S)he’s like me issue is huge.
Back to Palin….
For me, its a lot more than style but style is a good starting place for discussion. First is policy. 2nd, style. After style, probably personal qualities would be there.
Something that just jumps out and slaps me around with Palin is how she manages to blame others and how she refuses to really take responsibility. She makes up excuses for her kids also. Why bring most of it up ? She sounds like she is their age. She could have cut that kid crap off at the knees several years ago. Every time I have watched her the past couple of weeks, she is deflecting. What’s wrong with saying ‘I plan on making better choices,’ or ‘we all need to watch our rhetoric,’ or hell…who cares– Anything but ‘the other guy did it first.’ Now that is just immature.
She also needs to learn political realities. If she wants to change things, do it from the inside, gently nudging. For example, don’t drag out a pregnant daughter with an irresponsible boyfriend on stage with the nation looking, knowing that the oppositional researchers are going to be out there digging up the abstainence stuff. Leave her at home. Don’t deny the situation. Reflect that it is a serious time, you look forward to the new family member, etc.
After she dragged Bristol and that POS Levi out onto center stage people made unkind remarks or jokes about her daughter. What does she expect? Seriously? Is it right? No. We are a nation of millions. We aren’t all kind. Those remarks were human nature. That is not the time to be talking about abstainence. That just makes a person look like a hypocrit. Once you have a babe in arms, you ain’t the abstainence queen. Trot out Christine O’Donnell, not Bristol Palin.
I look at the remarks made about Cindy, Elena and me over a recent controversy. Were those right? Of course not. I have been very careful to not drag my children onto things involving this blog for that very reason. I know all people aren’t decent people. I don’t want my children professionally harmed or my grandchildren hurt over things I many say or do, perceived or otherwise. That is reality.
Ms. Palin has feet of clay also. If she is going to really run for the roses, she needs to swoop those children in like a mother eagle, get them out of the limelight rather than pushing them forward, circle the wagons, grow some real thick hide, and learn not to react to everything said. Then she might have more presidential style. Getting in a pissing contest with with one of the Republican Queen mums is just plain stupid and ill advised. It is those kinds of gaffes from which she will never recover. Those kinds of gaffes untimately will do her far more harm than anything any ‘left wing, lame-stream media’ can ever do.
Moon,
I’ll respond to your last when I have some time to give it its due.
On another note, this is why I support efforts to regulate clinics performing abortions:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/19/philadelphia-abortion-doctor-charged-counts-murder/
@Steve Thomas
This is one of the latest studies to find that conservatives are more fearful. I’ll try to scrounge up the earlier one in a bit.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/conservatives-fear-center-brain/
Steve, info on the earler study:
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/11/02/born_to_party/?page=1
@Censored bybvbl
Well, in the English story, first you have to define “conservative” because their conservatives and ours don’t necessarily match up. Second, apparently my sister is mutant. She’s the only liberal in my family. However, she didn’t get that way until she started dating a New York liberal in her 50’s…..so, its’ contagious?
If Conservatives are more “fearful” then how do you explain the studies that purport to show that conservatives are happier and have a more positive outlook?
So…are those that prepare for problems more fearful or just more aware of possible consequences? More conservatives go into the military….I don’t think you or they are using “fearful” in an accurate way.
Cargosquid, I’ll get back to you later because I have an errand I have to run. Just a quick thought though – as an Art major, I don’t worry too much about “matchy, matchy” so whether British Conservatives or American conservatives are compared doesn’t bother me. What American conservatives are you talking about – fiscal conservatives? Social conservatives? Tea Party conservatives? etc.
I’m like your sister in that I grew up a liberal in a family of conservatives (most are no longer conservatives – only one remaining Republican in the family). My mother said I was her rebellious child from the time I could walk so I think the inclination was there from early on.
Censored,
Having viewed the links, I’d have to agree with Cargo on his assessment. Also, the sample-size and methodology used in the study cited in the Boston Globe, makes this reference suspect. “Reactions to Threats” are not “Fear”. Fear is an emotional response. “Blinking” is an autonomic response. If I have great peripheral vision, and blink quickly when a bug is about to fly into the corner of my eye, it simply means I have fast reactions. Fear has little to nothing to do with it. However, I will say on certain issues like National Defense, a percieved threat can influence our views. I know I’m much opposed to reducing military spending in the face of growing threats from China, Iran, N. Korea, etc. Is this because I am a “fearful” conservative, or a prior active-duty Marine Officer and degreed in History and PolySci, and understand the nature of the threat?
I would also tend to believe a lot would depend on whose party was in power. I would imagine that liberals would be more concerned if conservatives controlled congress and the WH, and vice-versa for conservatives, when liberals have the reigns.
I would also like to 2nd Cargo’s reference to the multiple studies indicating self-described conservatives express greater satisfaction levels in the categories of marriage, work, family, community, than do liberals. Here’s a link to an article, with embedded links to referenced studies:
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/shortsharpscience/2008/08/why-conservatives-are-happier-than.html
Steve and Cargo, as your “happier” study points out:
However, when the authors instead grouped people by their “rationalisation of inequality,” the differences between conservatives and liberals dissolved. Republican or Democrat, people not bothered by social or economic disparities tend to be happy.
There’s a bit of wiggle room in that study as well. None of the studies would imply that a person was forever wedded to one outlook – ask my Republican sister who has been married five times! We’re not predestined to a rigid outcome. (On the old Myers-Briggs test, I’m an NT – doesn’t make all NTs liberal or conservative. We have free will. We may have similar traits but we’re not identical.)
As soon as I linked the articles, I told my spouse that someone would immediately say something about more conservatives going into the military. That, too, could be for any number of reasons – a traditional duty to country, a fear of threat from enemies, in the “olden days” a threat of jail or the draft, a means of learning a trade and paying for college, a family expectation, etc. Some professions attract more conservative people for much the same reason (minus jail). My sisters all went into different traditional fields, but as they worked with their clients, they became much more moderate – not only because of their fellow workers but also because they gained a broader view of problems.
As Moonhowler mentioned earlier, after the Red threat disappeared it only became a matter of time for a new enemy to be needed. And it appears that that enemy is us (moderates, liberals, RINOs, progressives). Such sad lives our happy conservatives must lead.
Well, it looks like the widely proclaimed second coming of an “Era of Good Feeling” is reaching a quick end. Dems on the House floor have once again taken to comparing Repub actions to those of the Nazis and describing the Repubs as potential killers of people. I knew the whole thing was a farce. Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.
@Steve Thomas
Pro choice people work to get butchers like this out of the business also. In fact, I did a thread on a similar topic abouut 6 months ago after getting a communication from one of my organizations. What if you had a rogue podiatrist or dentist? I think there might be better ways to stop this behavior that regulating clinics to death. It probably wouldn’t stop this anyway.
I don’t see this as any different than illegal abortions.
Okay, as an Indepedent I have to ask – why are people wedded to political parties? It’s just something unfathomable in my mind. How can anyone allow a group to think for them?
Burglars snort man’s ashes, thought it was cocaine!
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70I6KR20110119?feedType=RSS&feedName=oddlyEnoughNews&rpc=22&sp=true
Censored, the enemy isn’t moderates, liberals, RINO’s, and progressives. The enemy is the Islamist movement and jihadists.
The ones you describe are political opponents.
As for political parties…its the only game in town. People acting in conjunction have more power. No one thinks for me. I join with those that think alike. Thus, the Tea Party movement was founded. However, as you know, our political system works best with two “big tent” parties, as opposed to the parliamentary systems of other countries. The goal is to influence the party that matches you most closely, or, if you can, subvert from within.
To be more specific, I don’t actually understand what YOU mean by “allow a group to think for them.” How would a party do such a thing?
What about liberals that saw the light and embraced Ms. Rand and conservatism? What’s my brain look like??? (don’t say mush!)
@Steve,
I am pulling a Palin here. I have less at stake than she does though. I keep thinking about what you said about her having roots with the common man.
Where someone went to college is just not a big deal to me. Did Yale help George Bush become an elloquent speaker? Did Georgetown give Bill Clinton the charisma that makes him like the third most influential person in the world? No.
Actually, on paper, I might very well have a great deal in common with Sarah Palin. I went to a state college and did post grad work at various state colleges. My husband was in sales all his life. I have children. I have step children even. One of those had special needs. I don’t feel those things make her a sista.
Obama’s college experience doesn’t put me off at all. I don’t think that makes him elite and me the peon. I had never heard of a community organizer and all I know about Chicago is what I have read and what the airport looks like.
If I am going to connect, it would probably be with Elizabeth Edwards. She and I wear the same school tie. I connect to Hillary also. She is a moderate and a contemporary. She is far more academic than I am but I don’t find that intimidating. I want my leaders to have more on the ball than I do. I want them to be the stars.
Funny…no matter how broken GWB’s speeches were, you always knew exactly what he meant……not so much with this President.
As for Clinton, its a natural gift. If only he would use his gifts for the good side….. 😉
@Cargosquid
I specifically refer to following any candidate that ultimately wins the party’s nomination – because of that R or D beside his/her name. I could imagine supporting a particular lobby, PAC, special interest group but not something as broad as a political party. By the time a person has gone through a campaign and become the party’s nominee, the message is usually much less specific than something I’d support. It’s become diluted by group think. Actually, as Independents we wield a lot of power to make or break your nominee. Our disadvantage , of course, is that we usually don’t have a candidate of our own.
I can’t understand the commitment over a lifetime to one political party. It seems that one would change one’s opinions about subjects as material/more facts became available or as one’s life circumstances changed. One candidate or party can’t begin to represent all of my political, philosophical, ethical beliefs. I don’t see why people pigeonhole themselves. There’s a fine line between thinking that you influence the debate by joining numbers and being told to “jump!” because your party tells you to.
@Cargosquid
I feel for the most part, Clinton has used his gifts well. He still commands world respect. I believe he is under-utilized.
WHEN DO YOU GET MAD?
YOU DID NOT GET MAD WHEN OVER 200,000 US Citizens lost their lives because they had NO HEALTH INSURANCE.
You didn’t get mad when we gave people who had more money than they could spend, the filthy rich, OVER A TRILLION DOLLARS IN TAX BREAKS..
You didn’t get mad when lack of oversight and regulations from the Bush Administration caused US Citizens to lose 12 TRILLION DOLLARS IN INVESTMENTS AND HOME VALUES..
You didn’t get mad when BUSH ADMINISTRATION DID NOT CATCH BIN LADEN WHEN THEY KNEW WHERE HE WAS.
You didn’t get mad when Bush rang up 10 trillion dollars in combined budget and current account deficits.
you didn’t get mad when BUSH ADMINISTRATION LET A MAJOR US CITY, NEW ORLEANS, DROWN..
You didn’t get mad when the Supreme Court STOPPED a legal recount and APPOINTED a President.
You didn’t get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate Energy policy and push us to invade Iraq.
You didn’t get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.
You didn’t get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
You didn’t get mad when we ILLEGALLY invaded a country that posed no threat to us.
You didn’t get mad when we SPENT OVER 800 BILLION (AND COUNTING) on said illegal war.
You didn’t get mad when Bush BORROWED more money from foreign sources than the PREVIOUS 42 Presidents combined.
You didn’t get mad when over 10 billion dollars in cash just disappeared in Iraq .
You didn’t get mad when you found out we were torturing people!!!!
You didn’t get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.
you didn’t get mad when Bush embraced trade and outsourcing policies that shipped 6 MILLION AMERICAN JOBS OUT OF THE COUNTRY.
You didn’t get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.
No…..You finally got mad when a black man was elected President and decided that people in America DESERVED THE RIGTH TO SEE A DOCTOR IF THEY ARE SICK.!..
That is certainly something to think about, Starry. Certainly all of that won’t get to everyone but, I expect if we are honest, we can find at least one thing on that list that pisses us off.
Chris Christie was charming at the state dinner when interviewed. He can always pull through with his gift of gab. He said it was an honor to be there and great to be an American. I sure don’t agree with that guy on everything but there is just something likeable.
And now to the jeer column. Boehner snubbed the state dinner. Last week he snubbed the going to Tucson on Airforce 1. He is behind a real partisan a-hole, in my opinion. I had decided not to form an opinion on him for a while….you know, wait and see. He sure sealed that deal real fast.
So what did he prove? He insults the president and he insults the /Chinese. Smooth move, BONER.
Censored, according to the studies you cited, it’s biological :-). But seriously, the parties, like any group are the manifestation of their respective parts. People are social creatures. We tend to identify ourselves by the groups we choose to belong to, and tend to attach ourselves to groups that share our basic core beliefs and values. Whether it be religion, politics, trade or work related, civic or social.