John McCain, once again, demonatrates why I liked him. Having met him, having done his make-up for CNN and MSNBC, having witnessed his kindness to his staff ( a must in my mind to demonstrate true character), and his kindness to a “common” make up artist, I feel like he has earned my respect again.
From an op-ed in the Washington Post:
President Obama gave a terrific speech Wednesday night. He movingly mourned and honored the victims of Saturday’s senseless atrocity outside Tucson, comforted and inspired the country, and encouraged those of us who have the privilege of serving America. He encouraged every American who participates in our political debates – whether we are on the left or right or in the media – to aspire to a more generous appreciation of one another and a more modest one of ourselves.
I believe, what Moonhowler and I have been trying to convey, is that although we cannot and should not assess blame, we can look inward and wonder, how our words, and how are actions, can be better, can rise above the anger.
I disagree with many of the president’s policies, but I believe he is a patriot sincerely intent on using his time in office to advance our country’s cause. I reject accusations that his policies and beliefs make him unworthy to lead America or opposed to its founding ideals. And I reject accusations that Americans who vigorously oppose his policies are less intelligent, compassionate or just than those who support them.
He goes onto say being respectful is a goal, not always an achievable one, but one we can, and should strive for.
The suggestion that disagreement cannot our should not be spirited is not realistic, nor does John McCain imply that is our end goal, but I believe when we call for civility, we can still call for vigorous factual debates, without suggesting your “opponent is the devil incarnate”, “a traitor”, or any other pejorative !
This shooter’s bizarre mental illness has nothing to do with political discourse. I believe they should not be tangled together.
Want to use it to talk about gun control, that would be logical.
Want to use it to talk about early (earlier?) intervention for the mentally ill, that would be logical.
It’s not at all logical to use this as a jumping-off point to talk about “civility”. Some n America jumped to a mistaken impression that this guy must be a talk radio listener. rather than say they were wrong or apologize, they now talk about this as an “opportunity” (a “teachable moment”?) to talk about “civility”.
You ladies make your pro-civility arguement very well with this board’s existence. I resent people trying to take false lesssons from this shooting though.
@ Elena, I couldn’t agree more. Let us put aside the finger pointing and the “chicken and egg” arguments over who said the angry things first. Let’s have a rationale debate, focusing on the facts. We can be passionate about what we believe in, without personally attacking or wishing evil be done to our opponents.
@Rick, I agree that this tragedy shouldn’t be a platform for analyzing and finger-pointing. Now that passions and tempers have cooled a bit, let’s set the example of how we can argue our respective cases, in a logical, rationale manner. Being civil doesn’t mean compromising our core principles. It simply means respectfully disagreeing.
Thanks Steve, you encapsulate my points perfectly 🙂
@Rick, I know I am not perfect, and have often not preached what I “pray”, but I would like to take each day anew and try to do better.
I welcome the opportunity to have positive expectations of us as a Nation. Human beings tend to live up or down to the expectations made. Treating all peole with respect and dignity would be a good start.
Just in from CNN – — U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords has been taken off a ventilator and is breathing on her own, hospital in Tucson, AZ says.
anything about speech capability?@Juturna
Havent heard.
Unfortunately, certain people haven’t heard about this “civility” thing that you are talking about:
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/01/breaking-tucson-tea-party-leader-threatened-during-abc-interview-audience-member-screams-trent-humphries-youre-dead/
Cargo,
What that man did was wrong, no question, but the blog that posted hasn’t recieved the message either. What a shame, for some, nothing will change.
How boring that people want to remain the same, how sad. I am not interested in getting into a back and forth again. For me, I am interested in debating real issues, I hope it will catch on.
maybe what all this means is that words do matter, Sarah Palin is concerned about the words directed at her causing violence and the implication of this man is that media attack on the right about their words, may cause violence from the left. This feels like a dog chasing its tail….round and round and round. It’s time we all got off this ride and started moving forward.
enough already, hasn’t this tragedy been milked enough for political exploitation? where was the eloquence and sorrow of our great leader after the good major shot up all those soldiers in fort hood? can we move on already? good lord
obviously not e, for you haven’t changed at all…………………
I think that your message of civility is more real and has more substance that the stage managed one that was presented in Tuscon. That speech “sounded” Presidential. I just have seen evidence during the last few years that he believes what he says. I mean, what memorial service has an applause sign?
a nutjob shoots a politician, what relevance does that have in regards to politics, civility, or anything else? the case can be made for stricter rules for purchasing firearms, but what else is there to this story? nothing, except exploitation for political theatrics. enough already, move on
e, for one thing, this incident illustrates how there are too many nuts running around and that there is very little society can do about it. That ought to be scary enough.
Political theater? Dear God, are you people not going to stop. Blog for sale.
e,
why are people on the right going bonkers about the left wing media promoting violence by accusing the right of dangerous rhetoric ? If rhetoric doesn’t matter, who cares what the left says? Furthermore, your attitude is part of the problem in policitcal discourse and why it is so hard to get anything done. How often have you accused people who don’t agree with your point of view as communists?
@Elena,
I haven’t heard anyone on the left (whoever that is) accuse anyone on the right of anything directly still. I see people throwing out CNN, MSNCB, blah blah blah.
I want to see a quote by one person anyone has ever heard saying blaming any one individual.
I have never heard so much whining and victim mentality in my entire life. No one on the right is ever at fault for anything. There is always a reas)on why the behavior is ok or didn’t happen at all. (no one in an angry mob of people called any of the black representatives a name or spat on anyone because no one caught it on tape.) Give me a break.
People who ecamp on either extreme side probably do things the rest of us might not like. Time to deal and stop making excuses. Its time to call out behavior that is unacceptable.
Cargo,
See you are still on the same page. Time to move forward and stop looking for ways to denegrate the President.
people get shot in america every day. to extrapolate political ramifications from this tragedy is political theater, no more, no less. i don’t know what you people is referring to, i speak for myself as an objective observer
the left is free to say whatever it wants. and i am free to point out that the left’s making a huge brouhaha over this tragedy to score political points is cynical politics to the umpteenth’s degree
Kudos to Fox News for their special on embracing civility: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2r6tMzYXY4
thanks Moe, maybe some on this blog will watch the video.
no one in an angry mob of people ever called any of the black representatives a name or spat on anyone. another blood libel
e – can you explain to me why the nutjob loughner targeted Giffords?
If you watch any of the videos attributed to loughner , you cannot help but hear some of the right wing talking heads rhetoric speak out. The rhetoric from the left talking heads will be coming out from another wacko too. But to try and spin loughner actions as apolitical is not being truthful.
the nutjob loughner also targeted a tea party rally or something to that effect from what i skimmed off the drudge report this morning, i can read the stitches on a fastball and see this type of exploitation by the media all the time. during the bush years the biggest story of the day was the daily casualty count in iraq, bush lied people died, rah rah rah, this morning i read another 2 us soldiers shot up in iraq, they’re getting picked off daily in iraq and afghanistan and no one gives a damn now cause it’s no longer bush’s war, it’s a democrat’s war, so ho hum who cares. ditto darfur and whatever other cause the left gets so passionate about. in the uk the biggest story in the press is the exploding cost of fuel and other commodities, but here the media is still fixated on arizona and milking it for all they can. bah, it’s all politics
I welcome the return of snobbery – with it came a certain expectation of manners.
Why is it that so many have chosen to not only accept a mode of behavior like the cretins at the lower end of the human spectrum with talk, style of dress and absence of manners and but to take on that style for themselves? There will always be those that can’t cross that divide but for those that have chosen to – return. It doesn’t look good on you.
As I taught my children, yes there are those that speak, act and dress that way. We don’t.
@e
Prove it.
I get it. There was no ugly mob, there was no person who hear a racial epithet and no one got stewn with spittle. The perfects were there that day.
@Juturna
You know, Juturna, before she died. I reminded my mother that something she had just said was being a snob. She said of course she was a snob and proud of it. I believe she had a point. Thank you for reminding me.
She also told me that she didn’t care what other people were doing (when I offered up that kid argument.) She said she only cared what I was doing.
@Pat.Herve
Here’s a possible explanation of Loughner’s “politics”.
http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/12/the-new-age-assassin
Let’s not make him too crazy. He needs to be tried.
MH-so your Mother belived in personal responsibility – she made the decisions and followed through. And your Mother decided she had standards to live by and taught you. How quaint.
i have to prove a negative? the burden of proof is on the accuser
@e,
prove it didn’t happen. Many said it did. All those incidents. You can live in denial and think all people in an angry mob are good and would never call out a name or shout so people got spat upon. Believe what you want.
I am just totally sick of all the excuse making. It sickens me. I know when I see an angry mob. I know what angry mobs can do.
I am just very disappointed. Let’s leave it at that.
Moon,
Are we back to that old canard? We showed that the accusers, who videotaped their entire walk through the crowd, had no evidence. We showed that no video showed any racist talk. We showed that the accusers stories changed numerous times and they lied about the presence of THEIR supposed witnesses.
Yes, the crowd was angry. Yes, one man may have INADVERTENTLY sprayed spittle while yelling. There was NO SPITTING. There was a cop right there. Spitting is assault.
What excuses? The accusers LIED.
Just as the same people are lying today and have been for years.
The difference is that we are not “turning the other cheek” any more.
@Cargo,
I totally disagree. If you get spit on, regardless of HOW it happens, you have been spat on.
That is the argument that has sickened me since it happened. Why continually make excuses for poor behavior? The man’s spit shouldn’t have gone that far if he was behaving in a civilized manner.
What ever happened to all of us assuming personal responsibility, rather than making up excuses why it never happened. Sorry Cargo, but I have to ask. Do you not see a need for people in general to clean up their act or is it all one sided? Perhaps only moderates can see how disgusting it really is. Good grief, Keith Olbermann got it, only if for just one night. That’s a start.
According to the video, the victim was about 2 feet from the shouter’s cupped hands. He says that he was spit upon, but there are no actual witnesses, including the cop that was within 2 feet of him. There is no video footage. The shouting man is being mentioned only because he MIGHT be the culprit. But, you go ahead and believe what you want. Why don’t the lying race baiters take personal responsibility for LYING about what they heard? Why is it always the conservatives that have to be “responsible” even when they haven’t done anything wrong?
Poor behavior? False accusations, slander, representatives baiting a crowd, hoping for a bad reaction – why else tape it? Yep. That’s poor behavior. But I won’t change your mind. So, again, you go on believing that the poor innocent liberals are the victims and that the loud, upset constituents are always in the wrong. Slander against the innocent in a “good” cause seems to be ok.
cargo – here is the video – http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/28/congressman-spit-on-by-te_n_516300.html – if you can believe what you want – but just by the Congressman’s reaction alone, you can see that he was spat on (I do not know what Inadvertent spittle is). Even as the Congressman continues to walk, you can see him wipe his face again. Why did the video tape the event – that is common – by anyone (even the Chinese) video tape their events. So, you can believe what you want – the man was spit on, and it was more than spittle.
Inadvertent spittle, ie what has happened when someone tells you, “hey dude! Say it, don’t spray it.”
My point is that the man did not appear to INTEND to spit upon anyone. Intention is the key. The Congressmen put it out as if it was intentional and other people were acting in a racist matter. NO evidence of that is available. And the Congressmen lied about their witnesses and their stories changed.
But, as I said…..because he is a “civil rights hero” HE’s the good guy.
Its not that one side is always innocent. Its that when the TP IS accused of something, the accusation has been false. Are there asshats in the TP? Yep. But the TP tries to police its own, unlike the Democrat party and its useful idiots. (No one here is included in that)
We are tired of the double standard. And so we point it out.
I wish that there was more civility in politics, but the same ones (not here) calling for civility now are the same ones that have called me a racist, hate-mongering, violent bigot.
So, if there’s any civility….I’d like to see it start with those that consistently insult the right over things that the right does not do. Want to insult us for the things we do? Go ahead, make fun of our 2nd amendment stance, go ahead and argue that our desired ideal of government is simplistic. But be prepared for an argument.
But accusing the speech of Palin, Beck (who begs people to be non-violent), Limbaugh, the Tea Party, etc of inciting numerous people to violence WITH NO EVIDENCE THAT IT DID, IS SLANDER.
I see no outcry in the media about the excesses of the left. Only a “waaaah, he hit me back!”
I’m very willing to be civil when everyone agrees with me. 🙂
Cargosquid, so if there are asshats in the TP, why defend one? No one said that the TP rally spit in unison, but one person obviously did spit. I don’t know how you can understand his intentions or say whether he spit spitefully or accidentally since his cupped hands hide his mouth fairly well. I also don’t understand the need to defend him. It seems merely partisan. Weed the bumbs/thugs out and you won’t have to worry about how the TP appears.
Cargo, I am just going to answer without reading. I know what I saw on TV. Why is it that you simply cannot ever criticize someone in your group who I am assuming is Tea Party? I have never belonged to any organization anywhere that wasn’t without asshats.
I don’t see how anyone can say he didn’t spit, for whatever reason. I have been around loud boistrous crowds and I understand group mentality. What I saw on TV that day looked like a perfect breeding ground for something like that to happen. My money says it did. In fact, it is perfectly obvious what happened.
Let’s put it another way. Why was that crowd there? It was a done deal. What did it hope to accomplish by the yelling and screaming? I don’t like behavior like that. It really accomplishes nothing.
Furthermore that little spitting weasel tried to hide his face in another video I saw by using the old hand cup ruse. Time to admit that that guy is just a rude jerk.
I am thinking back to how many times I have watched a kid do something and have them stand there and tell me they didn’t do it. I don’t hallucinate.
Actually that crowd accomplished a lot. It was the beginning of the Tea Party rallies and showed the rest of those upset with the corrupt Congress that there were people that thought just like them and were willing to go to Washington to denounce it.
Lets say you’re 100% right about that one guy. So where is the condemnation for the lies that the Black Caucus put out? Where’s the outrage about the slander? Even THEY couldn’t produce evidence and they were in the middle of it with video. THEIR stories are the ones that changed and introduced false witnesses. Where’s the anger about that? YOUR REPRESENTATIVES tried to besmirch their constituents. They lied. And it still happening.
But, you guys never seem to see it. It seems that only the “right” says or acts in a bad manner. Ok, then.
Bull puckie. I condemn the left when I feel it is deserved. WHAT lies that the Black Caucus put out? How do I know they are lies? I don’t operate on he said/she said.
Who are MY representatives? You mean Webb and Warner? They weren’t out there, thank goodness. I didn’t see Frank Wolf either.
I saw bad manners. I think you can go to Washington and not display bad manners. Let’s take just a few events I politically disagree with. Better to use those than my own pet ‘issues.’
Glenn Becks mall extravaganza–no bad manners that I saw. I expect that the host set the level of expectation. Those who wanted to cause trouble knew they were unwelcome. Lets take another group: the National Right to Life Annual March- They are not associated with bad behavior either. They sometimes pick up a few fruitcakes here and there but those people are more or less contained. The rest of the group doesn’t take over into a screaming frenzy.
If the Tea Party doesn’t want to continually have to defend its behavior, then I suggest getting some leadership and secondly, weed out the ass-hats from events where there are cameras. Sure, there are good, honest decent people in the Tea Party. However, the group has a bad name to many Americans because no one wants to take personal responsibility. Its all denial. Until that stops, the organization will become increasingly marginalized.
I am being truthful and I hope I have said this politely. I would look at last fall’s election as a flash in the pan. I suspect the sting of some of the losses will last longer than most of the TP wins.
ARRGHH–I left out something. I saw a congressman getting spittled. That was obvious. I have also seen the spittler ducking being identified.
To start up doing a tit for tat …well..its just middle school. He did it so she did it isn’t the way I operate.
Here is where my criticize goes: Those congressmen should have never been allowed to go through that angry of a crowd. Either the crowd should have been moved back (a darn good idea) or the congressmen and women should have been rerouted. That was an angry, hostile, close to out of control crowd. It was dangerous.
And, most importantly, it is just an example. It isn’t winning any wars. It is making most people just weary. Me? It makes me want to projective vomit.
Good news, Brit Hume, Wallace and Krauthammer are at “war” with Rush Limbaugh (the man who called the child Chelsea Clinton a dog).
Here it is….. Yep, I have a formal education and am pretty happy about it. Think I’m going to confine myself to those that read and are either self-educated or formally educated and that speak with respect. There’s a difference….if that makes me an elitist so be it. I’m going to be one happy elitist. Because elitism and education beat out political parties over and over and over again.
NATIONAL) — The perpetually angry, electrically charged right wing radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh doesn’t like it much when anyone disagrees with him, even those who agree with him the most.
On his radio show last week Limbaugh brought the hammer down on the so-called “All Star Panel” on FOX News’ “Special Report” over the panel’s praise for President Obama’s speech at the memorial for the Arizona shooting victims.
On his radio show Thursday, Limbaugh slammed the panelists – which on that night were Brit Hume, Charles Krauthammer and Chris Wallace – for their positive comments about the President.
“They were slobbering over it for the predictable reasons,” he said. “It was smart, it was articulate, it was oratorical. It was, it was all the things the educated, ruling class wants their members to be and sound like.”
On Thursday night’s “Special Report,” host Bret Baier played the Limbaugh clip on air and asked Krauthammer — who had called Obama’s speech “quite remarkable and extremely effective” — for his reaction to Limbaugh’s slam.
“As one of the three slobberers…I find it interesting that only the ruling class wants a president who is smart articulate and oratorical in delivering a funeral oration,” Krauthammer said.
How quick! (and accurate!)
Thanks Juturna. Is that audio available?
I was speaking of “representatives” in a generic way. All of the Congressmen are “ours.” They lied by stating that they were vilified in racist terms. They made accusations against their constituents in order to make supposed political advances. They did it without evidence. And when no evidence could be found, they changed their stories and invented witnesses that did not exist.
There is a difference between a rally and a protest. The crowd was justified in its anger. Anger is not bad manners. Anger at perceived corruption and injustice is valid. But, then again, you don’t think it was justified as the programs rammed through by the Pelosi regime were just fine…..
The protest wasn’t even organized as a “tea party” event. It was a spontaneous, spur of the moment gathering. One Congressman, tired of Pelosi’s arrogance, called for citizens to express their outrage. And that crowd may have been loud, but it was not dangerous. Those politicians were not in danger. I think exposure to the anger of the voters is just fine and dandy. Politicians should see the results of their decisions.
Its a vicious circle. If the TP defends itself against slander, it gets criticized for being uncivil. If we express anger at our representatives because said reps try to patronize us, ignore us, or actively work against us, we should just grin and bear it. If union thugs beat us, its our fault. Our anger makes you weary and we have bad behavior, but, our anger and behavior is a reaction to years of vilification. Not of the Tea Party, but of the people whose beliefs make up the Tea Party. Whenever we point it out here, the statement is, “Well, I didn’t see that. Give me a specific example.” When we do, its ignored or the argument fixates on another specific.
You worry about spittle sprayed from a shouting man. I worry about the lies put out by the Black Caucus. You state that just because there was no evidence, doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen because the crowd was angry. But when we turn it around, you demand proof. You give more credence to liberal politicians because they are “heroes” of the civil rights movement yet seem to have paid no attention to the same politicians use of the race card for decades.
I’m just tired of the double standard and the outrage when the conservatives fight back.
Moon, I don’t think that you realize that your blog and your ideals seem to be unique in the liberal political field. And you don’t seem to explore your fellow liberals blogs or recognize the hostile agenda of the progressive movement. If you do, you don’t comment on it. But we do see it. And we’re fed up. For years, I’ve watched, listened to, and protested the progressives and socialists and communists. And watched the media ignore them and point out the alleged crimes of the right. Well, Don Surber said it for me.
http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/28041
and Peter seconds Don and adds this at http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/
“I don’t like incivility on either side of the political aisle. I don’t think it serves any purpose. However, after the almost incredible dishonesty and disingenuousness of the Left over the Giffords shooting (about which I’ve written twice before), I no longer think Mr. Surber’s comments are out of place. In this matter at least, the Left has earned his – and our – contempt. Their hypocrisy stinks to high heaven.”
Please note – neither of these pundits are “bomb throwers” or “ranters.” These are the “polite” pundits. We’re angry about this. Calls for civility by you is one thing, because we know what you mean. Calls for civility from the rest of the left means, “Shut up.”
Cargo, I believe our perceptions and our politics are very different.
I don’t really think there is much difference between a rally and a protest. Different words for the same thing. And yes, what the crowd did that day looked bad–real bad. What the crowds did at town hall meetings looked bad. Real bad. They drowned others out. It appeared to be thug behavior to me.
I am no fan of Pelosi. She works hard and got a great deal accomplished. I have kicked around this earth long enough to know that the pendulum swings…back and forth. I am happiest when it is in the middle. The only reason we are classified as a ‘liberal blog’ is because there were only 2 choices. Conservative or Liberal. Isn’t it sad when you have to squeeze into someone else’s pre-defined nich?
You sit around and read a great deal more left and right ‘literature’ than I do. I try to find things that appear many places. Is it biased? I am sure some stuff is. Do I bias things? Sure. Look at the title on Corey’s State of the County Address.
The ideals of the TP have to be expressed beyond what is perceived as bullying. I don’t know any other way to say it. What will happen is, the moderate leaning R’s will either drop out, be creatures of the wind like McCain, or become D’s. They will take their people with them. You can’t get rid of them.
I have no idea what’s going to happen politically. I am fairly sickened by most of it. You are aware that liberals think liberal is now a dirty word. So others have their defenses up. We are called liberals (and communists, socialists and other unflattering names) so I guess I will take up the banner of the liberals. (although no good group of liberals would have me!)
MH – start at 4:40. That’s when he says the Fox team was ‘slobbering’. Here’s a quote from Krauthammer I truly enjoy listening to Krauthammer pull together a thought regardless of whether we agree or not, I find it fascinating to watch him think. “As one of the three slobberers… I find it interesting that only the ruling class wants a president who is smart articulate and oratorical in delivering a funeral oration… It’s an odd and rather condescending view of what the rest of America is looking for in their president
http://www.mediaite.com/online/limbaugh-slams-arizona-pep-rally-and-slobbering-fox-news-all-stars/
Here is one definition of liberal. Sounds like a few people affectionally referred to as “founding fathers”. Guess I’ll add that to elitist. I like smart people that are not limited in thought and favor progress. That’s bad?
– lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.
1.
a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Juturna,
Sounds like a decent characterisitic to me 🙂
“we are classified as a ‘liberal blog’ is because there were only 2 choices. Conservative or Liberal”
Actually there are many choices. Your opinions on abortion, illegal immigration (once they cross the border), the purpose and scope of government, etc, place your blog in a liberal position – Liberal as defined and used today in politics, not dictionaries. However, you come across as very moderate. You would be “center-left” if we were using that measurement. Some of your views are conservative. Some are not. You fit into the “independents.” And there are blogs that do not fit into any categories out there.
In my opinion, such as it is, today’s “liberals” do not match that definition. Their orthodoxy is just different nor are they free from bigotry. They are still the progressives of the early 20th century. Their ideas are the same. Their intentions are the same. The term “liberal” was taken from the liberals of the day, what would be considered the “classic liberal.” Today’s “liberals” tend to be authoritarian. They like top down solutions. They have dogma that cannot be challenged. And their theories, especially economic ones, are old and staid.
Hate to say it, but that definition of liberal matches the Tea Party attitude better than anything else. The TP has a very large libertarian streak in it. Its the Tea Party that wants to shake things up and reform the existing order. Both the Democratic and Republican party are stuck in ruts and are resistant to those that rock the boat.