On February 26, Moonhowlings will be 1 year old. During the past 11 months we have had both highs and lows. The past couple days have been lows for us. Why so?
Our main objective for having this blog is to find common ground. The past couple of days we have felt like that was no longer possible and that there was no common ground. Hopefully, we can move forward and push partisanship aside in favor of discussion of ideas. Not agreeing is fine, but in all conversation, people can find some area to agree upon.
There has recently been some meanness expressed here. We don’t want that. It isn’t helpful and it isn’t productive. Personal, unkind remarks will just be taken down, quietly, in the future. We won’t all agree. We have some very different world views and people who would define themselves as conservative, liberal, centrist, libertarian and liberal. Please think about what we are asking. If you just want to shove your opinion down everyone else’s throat, this isn’t the blog for you. If you want to sell your ideas, then that’s a whole different story. Please while you are selling, take the time to listen to the other guy and look for common ground. Our very country depends on our ability to do so.
Moon-Howler and Elena
as a humble outsider looking in, i think your raison d’etre is inherently going to cause you stress. personal meanness hurled between individual bloggers is churlish, but politicians are big boys and gals, and when they act idiotically, like dennis kucinich suing the capitol hill cafeteria $150,000 for chomping down on an olive pit in his sandwich, then we the people who elected them will call them out for the buffoons that they are. hell, jay leno and david letterman made a career out of it. the first amendment was not enacted to protect polite conformist speech, but to deliberately protect political controversial speech. in regards to policy: if the opposing party wants me to drink a bottle of arsenic, or at least what half the country views as arsenic, how do you compromise with that? should we “reach across the aisle” and swallow just half a bottle? was slavery acceptable or not? should we compromise and say men of color are 4/5th free, and 1/5th indentured? there has always been conflict about what course the country should embark on
We can only establish our goals and insist that they are adhered to.
The alternative is to wallow in the mud. We can do that without having to go very far. We couldn’t have to even do any work.
woe be the day when wallowing in the mud is outlawed, and dissenting views are deemed forbidden hate speech. relish in our freedom and liberty, our posterity will look back enviously on us for having had the ability to do so
Moon: There can be no productive arguments between someone who believes in God and someone who doesn’t. One cannot half believe or half not-believe. So those types of subjects are going to be a waste of time and stressful to those seeking a half-way point. Similar arguments should be sent to the Moonhowlings’ sidelines and replaced with more flexible issues that should have a compromise point. Issues involving Obama’s birth place, his competency, anyone’s appearence, or which is better: a dog or a cat; need to be stiffled (maybe label them “100% polarized”) and kick them to the curb. Any subject that is 99% polarized or less could be fair game until the debaters have made their respective points and show no productive movement toward compromise. At that point the Moonhowling gods could declare “stalemate” and move on.
Moon & Elena, as one of the more recent newcomers, I think both of you present a forum where all are welcome. You present a variety of topics, humorous clips, and overall I have found a very diverse slice of our community on here.
There are also topics which will touch a lot of nerves, and set off heated debate. The last couple of days, as you both note, have been very trying. Discussing the Holocaust and Nazism are two such topics….I just followed the postings and I always avoid commenting on either simply because as a young Soldier when stationed in Germany I took a trip to see Dachau. On my Mother’s side, the extended Mueller Family were also members of that Party, and many served in the Wehrmact. So you can see why I avoid those topics.
Your banner reads: “A Place for Civil Debate”. Your goal to remove disparaging remarks is one I fully support – direct personal attacks have no place here. That said, sometimes the tone in writing by a poster may imply rudeness or an attack, but in actually raise key debate points (i.e. several by Cargo who in the debate, may have offended many). Just keep in mind if a topic is one which does touch nerves leading to many pros and cons, the choice may have to be just to remove the whole item.
“The difficulty in Civil Debate is sometimes it can lead to Civil Unrest and Disturbance” – a line I used to use when training National Guard in Civil Disturbance (aka Riot Control).
Please let’s not kick animals. –sniff–
Seriously, though. There is such a thing as a polarizing topic. But with most anything, you will find serious opposition on each side next to people who are somewhere in the middle. You will also find people who lose their tempers, miscommunicate or hit the “submit” button too early. It’s human nature. Ever have a heated discussion with know-it-alls? Ever get into it with amateur plumbers or mechanics? How about emotional sports fans? It’s just one of those things. Politics and religion are automatically TWO of those things.
I’m not saying you should put up with nonsense seen on other blogs, but I am saying you ladies are doing a great job, and this blog is far more civil than most. When you ask people to tone it down a little, they usually do, which also says something about the people posting here.
cats rule, dogs drool
@e
As a moderate, I have both cats and dogs. And they get along fine. True story. 🙂
As an “original” from the very first week or so of “antibvbl,” I’ve seen that things have come a very long way from what they were back then. and for the most part people are WAY better behaved than back then, myself included. But if there are so many rules as BS in VA recommends, there won’t be much “debate.” Look at the number of comments in most of the threads compared to other local blogs. People are talking here, and that can only be a good thing.
@Emma
Ditto. In 2007, I was an angry, ranting blogger. I’m a bit more accustomed to political blogs now, and I better understand the political climate in this state and in DC. I don’t like it, but I understand it more. A little understanding goes a long way.
I think the trouble is that most of us haven’t gotten beyond what we see as “the problem”. We can cite party lines, emails sent to us by PACs or info unearthed by google searches, but that hasn’t always advanced the discussion. Since we all have computers, we’ve obviously seen – or chosen to avoid – these same sites. What we should focus on are solutions. And as long as the solution is seen as a simplistic change of party or a cat or dog, we’re doomed to repeat the cycle.
Maybe the solution is “come up with a solution” without using a link to someone else’s thought. Offer a solution. This actually can work at the local level. We have Chris and Cindy to show us how to get started.
@Posting as Pinko
I forever don’t know how I could have lived a perfectly normal, contented life and then get on a blog and act like a ranting loon. Once in awhile, when Starry drops one of his/her little bombs, I think, “Hah, you think THAT was offensive?” 😉 I could have blogged him/her under the table back then.
@Emma
LOLOLOL! I know.
I think for me, since writing has always been my emotional and intellectual outlet, I am more at risk for ranting. But blogs like this aren’t necessarily made for ranting. They should be more communicative. I look at it as a lesson in understanding audience and place.
Most of our readers are polite. Sometimes forceful and passionate but polite. A few come by to start a fight (actually only one now) but he gets told and goes away for a while.
Some of what I have felt lately stems from having no set ideology as far as party goes. I suppose I felt some folks were going straight party line without compromise. I get very frustrated by that, especially when I see things that I would think we would all agree on.
Raymond brought up a whole other side I hadn’t thought about. It would never occur to me that someone wouuld defend Nazis. I found out they would when that guy was running for office who did SS reinactments. And I guess the Rabbis pushed me over my frustration cliff. I suppose I give Rabbis a pass.
I would like to go back to the search for common ground rather than seeing how far apart we can drift. (or catapoult ourselves) BS is right about some topics simply having no chance of common ground. (God vs No God)
Thanks for all of your input. Actually, writing the piece in the middle of the night was a catharsis and all of your response was healing. I have also had some private email that helped. I emerge with thicker skin…until the next time I do a melt down.
Emma, you are right. 😉 You could have. Starry…don’t mess with Emma. You might cause her to have a flash back.
Congratulations on your first birthday!
I think it’s grand here. Everyone snips and snipes but then is passes and we move on. The best way to affirm what you believe or think IS to listen to someone with whom you disagree. Although, beliefs and think are far apart – I do try to reserve beliefs to basic tennets so I can be more flexible about what I think. Which is a good thing.
I think when a nation faces a “change in direction”, it’s a painful process. I don’t see a lot of common ground any time soon. I would never say it won’t happen ever again, but for the time being, it’s going to be painful.
In a month, where do we go to have some birthday cake!!?? 🙂
@marin, remind me.
@Slowpoke, how do you see the nation changing direction? I saw an economic crash, not a change in America. Elections come and elections go. What did I miss?
Insightful and true.
I have enjoyed reading your blog since I discovered it as antibvbl.net, and enjoy it even more as MH and Elena have evolved it into community gathering place. Marin’s cake idea is a good one. Would love to meet locally.
For anyone who wants to take action:
1. Brainstorm your vision
2. Write down every obstacle to your vision
3. Write down every resource that can help you overcome every obstacle and accomplish your vision
4. Come up with an action plan
5. Just do it
@Cindy,
We are glad you are here. A get together sounds like a good idea.
SS bad….ordinary, run of the mill Grunt Soldier good!!!
It’s easy to miss, I totally understand, but maybe I can help a little bit. If you stacked $1 bills, the stack would reach to the moon and back…..twice.
@Slow, that’s funny. I like it. 🙂
@MH, I’ll toss in a few bucks for some coffee and cake. Now, will it be red or blue? Enquiring minds want to know!
Good comments, my faith is being renewed. Listen, I love a good debate, geez, I married a conservative repbulican, but I also abhor ideology for ideology sake alone. People have different world views, literally, our personal experiences and innate personality bring us to how we form our ideas and no two people are the same.
@marin,
Red velvet with cheese cake icing, blueberries on top.
Maybe Cindy will find us a birthday place in her travels.
I’m not a fan of red velvet but I can compromise! I think we can get bipartisan support on the topic of deserts and sweets. 🙂
I think this a most worthy goal!
Moon,
I think there will be a change. The only constant is change. You have wisely pointed out many times that the pendulum swings this way and that. We’ll drift too far left, and elect conservatives. We’ll drift too far right, and elect liberals. In between, we manage to elect a few moderates.
I also think there can be some positives that come out of the economic crash. We can blame this admin or that admin, but a lot of the blame can be found by looking in the mirror. Just because “money is cheap”, didn’t mean we had to borrow it. I’m not refering to the national debt. I am talking about personal debt. I know I have made some radical changes in the way I approach finances. If you look at the generation that lived through the depression, and fought WWII, and how those experiences shaped what we today refer to as “The Greatest Generation”, we have an opportunity to be another great generation.
Back to the point of this thread. I think it very worthy. I like a passionate debate. I like a debate were both sides walk away with new and different perspectives, that perhaps they didn’t have before. I like a debate where at the end there isn’t animosity for the other side, but respect. But I do think it will take folks stepping outside of their comfort zones, perhaps putting themselves in the other guy’s (or gal’s) shoes for a bit, and perhaps acknowledging when the other side make a point.
Read a great book a few nights ago, about “broken truths”. Much wisdom in that book.
@Steve, Good one, eh? —-> broken truths.
I find it strange that all the western countries have ended up with massive amounts of debt.
The greatest generation I knew didn’t borrow like drunken sailers because credit just wasn’t that available. I don’t know if it was being trifty or lack of opportunity. My people were southerners who had lived through the Civil War. There just wasn’t any money. Maybe I meant to say there wasn’t any old money. It was …not to be trite…but gone with the wind.
Isn’t there a great bakery in Manassas on Liberia? We met there once Cindy, what was the name of that place?
@Steve 🙂
Would you like homemade icing on that red velvet cake?
@Lafayette
But of course. I actually wasn’t going to make the cake.
@Elena
Speaking of Steve, maybe he knows a place and has connections for a group.
I wish Cargo would check in.
I think that you have largely achieved your goal of civil debate. But the primary lesson that I have taken is that we all hold different things as “sacred.” There will always be someone on this blog who challenges assumptions and deeply held convictions, and the result is sometimes bitter exchanges.
For the most part, the political leanings of the contributors have resulted in the beliefs/assumptions of conservatives being challenged. The thread on the rabbis and Glen Beck reversed roles to some extent. The key is to be able to separate true incivility from audacious challenges of ideas/philosophies/people/religion, especially those that we admire and believe in. It took me awhile to be able to separate the two.
The bottom line is that this blog is not for sissies.
If you want a non-alcoholic celebration and room for pontificating speeches on the momentousness of the moment, there’s Wegman’s in Gainesville (upstairs – order the cake downstairs!) or the parish hall at my church, Trinity Episcopal or City Hall in Manassas or Town Hall in Haymarket (Lafayette’s cake!!!!).
Cakes by Happy Eatery on Liberia is more intimate – don’t know if they’d do a red velvet cake.
If you want alcoholic – Okra’s in Old Town has a separate room and Charles might do a red velvet cake for us, have to ask. One time he baked cookies for Leadership Prince William that were to die for. The room is great for pontificating also. We’re talking higher cost.
Steve? Lafayette? Big Dog? Anyone else?
I personally have toned my comments down from the begining. Contributors here are for debate, not to name call and belittle others. That’s not to say that one or two don’t come along to stir things up a little.
A few years back I think a lot people were frustrated/angry. Things have toned down since that time. I think people here are willing to listen to others and have spirited exchanges without getting nasty. I’ve seen common ground found numerous times on this blog. This is not something you will see on another local blog. The problem is some are so hell bent on their beliefs they won’t even consider another’s opinion. This will solve nothing, it will only fan the flames of the issue at hand.
Many think finding common ground is a sign of defeat or weakness. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Common ground is how things will get solved. I’ve seen this work in many ways in our community. However, you still have those that will slap this idea down and damn those that are willing to meet and look their “enemy” in the eye. I sure had plenty of nasty things said about for participating in the pilot “study circle”. I had four different people come up to me look me in the eye and appologize for calling me a racist along with many other things for passionate about my beliefs. Once they had the opportunity to hear me speak my beliefs and see that I was not some evil she-devil. I can tell you when I walked in that room that morning, I felt I was being fed to the wolves. That thought went out the window after about a half an hour of being there for an full day of excercises. After that day I made a conscience effort to not come off angry. It was a long day, but at the end of the day had a “cleansing” feeling of sorts. As a result more study circles cropped up throughout the city and one in the county.
I’m glad there’s a place like moonhowlings were people can be civilized. Thank you ladies, for giving us a place to voice our opinions in a respectful manner.
Cindy,
There are a couple of places that aren’t busy on a Sunday afternoon that would certainly allow for tables to be put together for a large group to about 20. Mama Mia comes to mind it’s family owned. They are slow in the mid afternoons and I’m sure would welcome the business. I would gladly talk to the owners. They have salads, pizza, subs, pasta, beer and wine. I will gladly bake the red velvet cake for the event. Forget store bought.
Red velvet cake? Count me in.
AMEN!!! Strident defense of one’s position is fine, actually, it is to be encouraged. I causes one to have to think through their views. What I strongly object to is a blind adherence to a position and then labeling those not sharing the position as being mentally ill, as often happens when I post on BVBL. (Sorry, its an itch I have to have scratched – kinda like mixing it up under the hoop back in the day. I think the kids call this “trolling” a blog?). I am not surprised that extremists (from BOTH ends of the political spectrum) take this tack, just disappointed in the lack of maturity. Going through life with blinders on, afraid to question everything, is a life of unrealized potential.
Instead of more advice on the tone and direction of this nice blog, I will say only….
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
All together now…
Happy Birthday to you…
Happy Birthday to yoooooouuu
Happy BIRTHDAY to Moonhowlings….
HAPPY Birthday toooooooo yooooooooouuuu
and Raymond, Thanks for that mention.
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Folks are planning a party. I hope you will journey north, Cargo. I want to hear that song in person.
As for the cake, how about red velvet with blue homemade cream cheese icing? Skip the blue berries. Just good blue icing. Lafayette, I can donate a box of red velvet.
Disgusted, you know that word that they don’t say at Hogwarts? Whispering…Voldemort…around these parts we euphamistically say: the dark screen when referring to the home of the black velvets.
Bwaaaahahahahahahah
Actually, our parent blog was antibvbl.net
And I am just kidding with you. Say what you want to say. I agree with you about blind adherence to a position. It makes those who do that appear to be programmed rather than having a thought process click on.
“Mama Mia comes to mind it’s family owned. ”
I know the owners very well, and if we were willing to go to the one in Gainsville, I am pretty sure we could be accommodated nicely.
Steve
@Moon-howler
Don’t know if I can make it, but, I’ll put it under consideration….
Mama Mia sounds wonderful. I’ve heard good things about it.
Anything that comes out of your kitchen is awesome, Lafayette. I still remember and appreciate how you helped us feed the summer Week of Hope volunteers at The Rock, and the Norfolk Southern crews that had to work on Thanksgiving. They remember, too 🙂
@Steve Thomas
I’ve yet to visit Gainesville. I think either location would welcome us. I’ve known the whole family since they arrived in the 70’s. You talk to E, and I’ll talk to S and/or S.
@Cindy B
Thank you, Cindy! Three and half hours, dinner prepared, cooked, served and cleaned up for 100 people, done by 6 people. That was really something.
Funny that Mama Mia should be mentioned. My wife and I left the compound on Sat to visit a doctor in Gainsville and we stopped at Mama Mia based on a recommendation of a friend of ours that went there weekly. She’s since moved to Stafford but still makes the trek as much as she can — that’s a great endorsement. I had a very satisfying meal as did the better half. We were very happy with the quality of food and service.
If I’m welcome, I’m good with anywhere as long as it’s not an anti-gun zone. 🙂
Check with Steve. I have no idea Marin. Do us a favor and do the concealed thing por favor. And of course you are welcome.