Super Bowl is over. Next up, Valentines Day.
209 Thoughts to “Open Thread………………………………………..Tuesday, Feb. 8”
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They are elected not crowned or appointed. So they need to represent those that elect them. If a person of Religion X was elected from a primarily Religious Y area then I would hope that the respect and tolerance for and of others found in all spiritual beliefs (especially that really tricky phrase that catches most “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us”) would be employed and personal opinions/beliefs may have to be controlled and maybe sidelined.
@Moon-howler
Of course I am. Their religious beliefs will influence their every decision. I think that you misunderstood me. I’m reacting to a combination of : “I very much care if someone uses their religion in office,” and “I don’t care what religion a person is as long as it isn’t part of the package deal.”
What I was saying that you can’t separate religious values and the person. Since it influences their values, every decision will be influenced. So I see a disconnect between your two statements. Its always a package deal because one’s religion is part of the package.
All we’re talking about is a person’s value system. The separation of church and state means only that the gov’t can establish a religion or favor one over the other.
That’s the kind of thinking folks had when Kennedy ran. The Pope would be running the US. Values are learned from many sources other than religion. Look around!! 🙂
Jutur na , I have seen the kennedy’ wall. Not a problem. Other folks, not so much. Many RR politicians want to impose their world view on the rest of us. That’s the reason the Christian Coalition was formed.
I am not so naive as to think a home school mom from the home of Moral Majority founder Jerry Falwell doesn’t have a not so hidden agenda.
It’s getting real sporty in Egypt… Any bets on civil war versus coup? I’m leaning towards coup……………………
@Moon-howler
What’s hidden? The Christian Coalition, etc, was a REACTION to the imposition of liberal values, as defined by those organizations. They haven’t hidden their agenda. But are you going to state that any person of religious convictions should be kept out of office because they might make decisions based on their values?
I said NOT so hidden agenda. Tell me, what are liberal values? Is it government’s job to impose values on us? You, who want less government interference?
People of religious conviction are welcome to public office as long as they keep their convictions out of said office. I don’t want someone’s religious beliefs imposed on me.
Let’s go back to those Muslims …..want their values imposed on YOU?
yes, i too would like a definition of liberal values, liberal votes, liberal bills, liberal actions, liberal people. It’s usually thrown out as a catch all for those that have a different idea from screaming conservatives.
@Moon-howler
Sure: an easing of the sexual mores of the culture. Pro-choice, more government influence, interference in areas that parents think should be left to them, pro-drug use, pro-welfare, gay rights, etc. Those are the things that the Christian Coalition, etc, reacted to.
So, is it ok for a liberal’s values to be imposed on others? Should a religious hospital be forced to conduct abortions? That tends to be the elephant in the room. Teaching explicit sexual practices to grade schoolers? That happens too. Harassment of home schoolers. In some cases, gun control.
These are all values imposed upon others, whether its religious or not. In your case, I’m betting that all this talk of religious values is just your worry that the “right” will restrict abortion. Hate to tell you, but that fights going to be going on forever.
And juturna, its also thrown out as a catch all for those that have a different idea from ANY conservative.
If a Muslim is elected to office, and there is one Muslim Congressman, his values will have an impact on his legislation. There is no getting around it. And if he, or any elected leader, attempts to impose sharia, which is a different political system, on the US, I will fight it. If he attempts to use Islamic values of charity, humility, and peace, and can separate himself from jihad, I have no problem with the idea of him “imposing” values.
Its not the religion part that dangerous. Its the value part. You just want only your values represented. Fair enough. That’s what makes democracy wonderful. You find enough support and you get your values represented. Even atheists can have ideas that you will find abhorrent, even about abortion. I know Pro-life atheists. Its not religious. They say its based totally upon logic.
That’s why I don’t understand about this knee-jerk reaction against any religious person in office because, if I ran for office, you wouldn’t want me to “impose” my values, yet, I’m not a religious person. I’m just a conservative.
If a person runs on a Tea Party platform demanding LESS government, said government has LESS power to impose values of ANY sort. So, yes, electing her, if she stays true to her Tea Party roots, less government means that the government won’t impose their values on you. And since Roe vs Wade is “settled” law, its not going to be changed anytime soon. Even with a Republican Congress and a Pro-life President…oh, wait. We just had that and abortion is STILL legal. I don’t think one more conservative Tea Party Senator is going to affect that.
I spent preK-post grad in Catholic Schools. I never felt either the need or the desire to impose my beliefs on anyone. In fact I was taught not to.
So if you are anti-abortion, pro-gun, pro same sex marriage which are you?
What the heck is pro-welfare? Meaning anyone who truly needs it and someone agrees, they are liberal? Did you mean abusive of welfare?
Let’s break this down a little:
Should a religious hospital be forced to conduct abortions? Not if it doesn’t take federal funds.
Teach explicit sex practices to grade schoolers? no. where does THAT happen?
Harrassment of home schoolers? No. where does that happen? Do you go to their house to harrass them?
Next…..
Easing of sexual mores of culture–what does govt have to do with that?
Pro-choice- Is the think police here now?
Parental interference- not sure what that would be.
Pro-drug use–define drugs? Are we talking about taking up jail space with pot smokers or putting away those running drugs and making meth in the house down the block?
Pro Welfare- not sure what that is.
gay rights- yea, why can’t gays have rights? Why should anyone be denied rights?
gun control? I don’t believe the right to own a gun is absolute and total. Obviously neither does the govt.
@Cargo, please tell me that you aren’t one of those clods who thinks that pro choice people are pro abortion! The hypocrisy of the less government crowd thinking that they can control someone else’s reproduction. The same control freaks often want to limit birth control and the morning after pill. They often also want to restrict age appropriate sex ed.
I have been fighting this crap and nonsense for more years than I am willing to admit on this blog. I wouldn’t count on the tea party lady being anything but what she is now.
I don’t care if she worship goats. She has made it perfectly obvious in everything she says and does that she wants to control everyone else’s morals. Like Juturna, I was taught that my beliefs shouldn’t be imposed on anyone else.
Most people are not so black and white which is why I dislike labels. Few people have not been touched by homosexuality probably why the CPAC did not bar GOProud. Most people think government has too much influence and is over involved. No one wants explicit sex practices taught to grade schoolers.
What I hear is that liberal is thrown out if one does not adopt all tennets of one’s definition of conservative. Very few can sustain all conservative principles for a lifetime or all liberal principles. One day your daughter is raped, your son announces he is gay, your parents decide to protest a nuclear plant, you find your beach front property will now look over oil rigs, you find yourself homeless and need some support……
It’s better to consciously form your conscious from issue to issue. At least you know you thought about it. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s easier for some not to do their own thinking…. maybe that’s what I don’t get.
@Juturna, I have been thinking about the binary thinking lately–that things are either black or white, right or wrong, hot or cold. You have brought up some good points. Life throws some curves and suddenly we find ourselves reevaluating.
From VPAP:
For Chair of the Prince William County Board, Babur Lateef has announced that he is seeking the Democratic nomination against Gary Friedman. Additionally, Haymarket Town Councilmember Bob Weir is seeking the Republican nomination against incumbent, Corey Stewart.
In the Gainesville District, Democrat Carl Genthner is challenging Republican incumbent, John Stirrup.
Cargo, I simply do not understand why a person who wants less government wants government or its representatives to impose values.
That baffles me. We have rules that are defined so society runs in an orderly fashion. Those rules protect us. Yet some folks feel that we need the 10 commandments posted in the classroom and that they need to pray before football games. WHY? The good Lord can hear prayer from anywhere. Maybe some people just want to show off.
Or some just retreat because they’ve forgotten how to think for themselves or can’t admit they’ve changed their minds. They lose relationships and can’t possibly be happy. I am sad for them. I’m far too independent to ever go that route.
“The hypocrisy of the less government crowd thinking that they can control someone else’s reproduction.” This is what I’m talking about. LESS government means that they CAN’T do that. There is a strong libertarian thread in the Tea Party.
I don’t want the government to impose values, I’m saying that no matter who is in power, THOSE people will impose their values on others, no matter what the source of those values. That’s why you want YOUR people to represent you. That’s why we have parties.
Many want the prayers in school because a)its what they grew up with and see no harm b) believes that it develops many positive attributes. Personally, I don’t care if they are there or not. Everyone prays at test time…. Its not even on my list for priorities.
Unlike Virginia, some states are VERY LIBERAL, ie, California. They have been known to harass home schoolers and some schools promote very NON age appropriate sexual education. The recent controversy over Obama’s “safe school czar” that had connections to some very controversial sexual situations comes to mind as an example of what the right objects to.
I agree with Juturna’s post at #25, but if that is being applied to the Tea Party, understand that the TP is a reaction to the GOP NOT living up to its rhetoric and platform yet expecting the conservatives to support them without question.
I’m not going to get into it with you about the values of those that object to the morning after pill, etc. Lost cause. As for the sex ed, many feel that should be left to the parents as they feel that they are the best judge of how and when to do such things. Many of the Sex Ed courses, especially in other more liberal states, have been know to teach it too explicitly for the child or teach controversial subjects, ie, homosexuality, etc. in ways objectionable to the parents. And yes, I know that you don’t feel that’s a problem But many find those things objectionable and want to pass that to their children as moral teachings.
The Christian Coalition, etc, organized to fight the culture war. It started with the defense of the unborn, continued with the fight against the increased sexualization of our popular culture, the acceptance of homosexuality as a lifestyle – especially as shown during the assorted libertine “gay pride” events, the downgrading of the value of Judeo-Christian ideals presented in public, etc. You know this.
It lost. In fact, I can’t think of a single fight that the social conservatives have won, other than home schooling. You actually seem to be on the winning side. The social conservatives are engaged in a fighting retreat. That’s why the fiscal conservatives are uprising. They are tired of losing the battle because too many have bought into the story of the scary “so-cons” so they are forcing the GOP to put the social concerns as a second priority behind the fiscal concerns.
@Cargo, there is a lot that goes on in society that I don’t like. I don’t need the RR to back up that I don’t like it though.
Let’s go with homosexuality as an opener. You accept that some people are gay and it isn’t a choice? It is the way they are wired. If we can’t agree there, then no point in discussing it. I believe that gays should have the same rights everyone else has. Now, do I like the behavior at gay pride day? NO. I also don’t have to go downtown on that day. I don’t think people do themselves or their demographic any favors by acting out in public either.
People can be against others being gay all they want. Their disapproval will not make it go away.
There is no winning or losing side. People need to mind their own business. Why on earth should I care if gays marry? How does that hurt me? It doesn’t at all. That is a case of imposing one’s values. I don’t have to like it or not like it. It shouldn’t have anything to do with me.
I don’t see the RR in full retreat. Why do they care what happens at a gay pride events. Don’t go to it. Know ahead of time you will be grossed out and stay home. That’s what I don’t get. My Judeo-Christian ideals tell me to live and let live as long as no one is being harmed.
It has taken 15 minutes to figure out what a so-con is. got it. I heard great denial that they weren’t part of the TP. Of course, being an old student of the vast right wing conspiracy, I recognized it almost at first blink. I think it the truth be told, the social concerns are still first and a lot of the TP folks are riding in on the fi-con horse and they will switch mid-stream, to the so-con horse.
It won’t last. Most people feel that they are responsible for their own morally appropriate behavior and don’t need a group or the government to impose sanctions.
The culture war could and should be fought economically without government. But that requires conviction and inconvenience to be sustainable. There are many items, TV shows and stores that I have never supported. Many public services or opportunities I’ve not participated in.
I reacall two aquaintences who “held their noses” and took advantage of Family Medical Leave Act although they were vehemently against it. It’s there so why not was the logic. I daresay when it comes right down to it, that the reason the culture wars are being lost is due to lack of conviction and an unwillingness to be inconvenienced.
It’s easier to blame the government.
@Juturna
Some of what you are talking about is parental responsibility. Its tougher than when I was a kid. When I was a kid life was simpler. Parents more or less insisted that you behave yourself so you wouldn’t embarrass them. If your child was disrespectful in school or did bad things in the neighborhood, it was a social indicator. Nowadays parents continually make up excuses for Little Johnny or else they want to go fight someone for ‘dissing’ their kid. Sends a bad message.
With ipods, computers, cell phones, play stations, etc, parents can quickly become overwhelmed. Many don’t try though. Maybe they should take the time to see what kind of music is on that Ipod, put the computer in a central location and check what Little Johnny is doing, look at the video game on that play station and be on the look out for bullying, sexting, etc. If parents don’t have time to do those things maybe Little Johnny should have all the current tech-quitment.
I don’t think the culture warriors need to get involved in those things either. I left off a huge, big ticket item: Control TVs. Not every kid needs a TV in his or her room. Know what is being piped into your own house. Those parental controls are on TVs for a reason.
I have found many culture warrior types to be self serving, smug and more interested in their own standing within their subculture than really cleaning up things for a greater good. They were probably the types who wouldn’t have wanted Elvis’s hips on TV back in the day. 🙄
I have found many culture warrior types to be self serving, smug and more interested in their own standing within their subculture than really cleaning up things for a greater good. They were probably the types who wouldn’t have wanted Elvis’s hips on TV back in the day.
Well said.
Or they would have been Tories during the revolution. Liked it here but didn’t want to upset the applecart – or not be considered ‘genteel’.
Those are not the people that will make a change. Maybe that’s why it’s so annoying…the loudest actually DO the least.
“really cleaning up things for a greater good”
Yet, when they DO try to do such things, they are denigrated as bigots, etc.
As a note, the complaint about Elvis’ hips seems to have come true…..
Rock n’ roll was declared an evil because it would lead to more sexual licentiousness.
Um…..they were right.
So the culture wars are about bigotry or perceived bigotry? I thought there was more to it than that. What would be the bigotry of the folks who are against FLMA in principle but all for it for themsevles. I call that hypocrisy not bigotry. Or shouldn’t they be held to it because it’s not their fault it’s available.
I see that this will just continue to be a blame game. Pass.
No, the culture wars are not about bigotry, etc. Many are concerned about the things I mentioned. They wish to restrict the advance of such things. But as you say, this is a useless argument. I was just answering Moon’s questions.
What is FLMA?
Revolution has been achieved.
FMLA = Family Medical Leave Act
Arrrgghhh! There is no direct cause/effect established between rock n roll and increased sexuality.
As one who has been called a femi nazi Lesbian Pro-abort (I am none of those) a time or two, And I have been knocked to the ground several times, I won’t get out my violin and start playing for the culture warriors. I have seen the face of culture warrior and felt their barbed hands.
I have read a couple of letters written to the ladies of the adult boutique by some of the good Christian ladies of Manassas. I seem to remember something being said about them being a blight on the community or words to that effect. Kindness was missing.
Then there are good, decent people who try to build bridges rather than lob grenades. Who would you rather deal with? I will say this. I have dealt with all sorts of people and I have never found such meaness as I have seen with some of the culture warriors. No pity party for them.
I recall lots of trash being slung at Tipper Gore for trying to get labels on music. hmmmmm
@rod2155
The Egyptian cell of the TEA party has proved that non-violent confrontation of tyranny works!! 🙂
@marin,
Non-violent? Tell that to Anderson Cooper and those Fox News guys.
it is too early to determine what will happen in Egypt. Wait until the dust settles, and lets see what comes out of the Mubarak’s departure. The Muslim Brotherhood seems to be more organized than other groups – and that would not be a good thing for the US.
I sincerely hope the Obama administration encouraged Mubarak to step down because that’s what they believed was best for the Egyptians and for the US, and not to get the ball rolling for 2012. I am fearful of what will fill the vacuum there.
Judging from DNI Clapper’s comments about the Muslim Brotherhood being a “secular organization” yesterday, he must have gotten briefed only yesterday about the upheaval. Poor guy was still studying up on the London terror arrests.
The shooter in Manassas is here illegally. He was ‘ordered’ to be deported in 2002 but never left. So what is the process that takes place between original arrest, detainer issued then a court order? Apparently it doen’t include incarceration.
@Juturna, ankle bracelet? Not sure.
I found it interesting that Paul Ebert is going for the death penalty. Looks like he is under our jurisdiction. He also said he was concerned about the crime, not the status at this point.
Psst. AC and FoxNews got attacked by pro-GOVERNMENT thugs not by the [TEA party] freedom fighters. 😉
psstt you weren’t there. You don’t know who each person was.
Did you see a sign saying pro-government thug on each one?
Actually, you do the Tea Party no favors by comparing it to a group overthrowing a government. Actually, that is one reason I don’t trust any of them. I know what I saw at the Capital. I did not like it. I don’t have to justify why I don’t like it and it would do me no good anyway. There would just be denial.
Your right MH. Trusting AC’s first hand account was dumb of me. I yield the point.
@Moon-howler
I wasn’t asking for sympathy for them. I was answering Moon.
“Arrrgghhh! There is no direct cause/effect established between rock n roll and increased sexuality. ” Really? Have you seen the dancing lately? Worse than the Tango! Puts the Waltz right out! Have you seen MTV lately? Brittany Spear’s first video was directed by Greg Dark, a porn director. And its just gotten bet…um, worse.
Pat.Herve is spot on about Egypt. Celebrate liberty today. Tomorrow comes the inevitable question: “What do we do now?” Hope for the best. Be prepared for the worst. It could go either way — easily.
This story interests me. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/us/11smoking.html?ref=us
More hospitals and medical businesses in many states are adopting strict policies that make smoking a reason to turn away job applicants, saying they want to increase worker productivity, reduce health care costs and encourage healthier living.
Key paragraphs in here:
The new rules essentially treat cigarettes like an illegal narcotic. Applications now explicitly warn of “tobacco-free hiring,” job seekers must submit to urine tests for nicotine and new employees caught smoking face termination.
A number of these organizations have justified the new policies as advancing their institutional missions of promoting personal well-being and finding ways to reduce the growth in health care costs.
“We felt it was unfair for employees who maintained healthy lifestyles to have to subsidize those who do not,” Steven C. Bjelich, chief executive of St. Francis Medical Center in Cape Girardeau, Mo., which stopped hiring smokers last month. “Essentially that’s what happens.”
One concern voiced by groups like the National Workrights Institute is that such policies are a slippery slope — that if they prove successful in driving down health care costs, employers might be emboldened to crack down on other behavior by their workers, like drinking alcohol, eating fast food and participating in risky hobbies like motorcycle riding. The head of the Cleveland Clinic was both praised and criticized when he mused in an interview two years ago that, were it not illegal, he would expand the hospital policy to refuse employment to obese people.
“There is nothing unique about smoking,” said Lewis Maltby, president of the Workrights Institute, who has lobbied vigorously against the practice. “The number of things that we all do privately that have negative impact on our health is endless. If it’s not smoking, it’s beer. If it’s not beer, it’s cheeseburgers. And what about your sex life?”
@marin, I saw this and was highly offended. In fact, I had had a big fight with my daughter over this issue. I am not advocating smoking but rather people’s right to smoke if they want to. Yes, I know it is additive; probably better than the average bear.
There are simply too many cases of people not minding their own business. The really disgusting part is that smoking is legal for adults, as is drinking, yet smokers are treated like second class citizens. I sure don’t see the Congress outlawing it or booze. They don’t have the nerve.
@marinm
They weren’t the only ones attacked. I doubt if AC actually knew either. Funny thing about mobs (and the reason I stay out of them) , you never know who you are dealing with.
@Cargosquid
Actually you said that they were denigrated as bigots. You obviously had some sympathy for them. I find it strange that I mentioned some rather bad things that happened to me, yet you never ever bothered to inquire why or was I ok. No, I have some permanent joint problems from the 3 episodes.
Of course I have seen dancing lately. Rock and Roll isn’t causing that. Individual artists are causing the problems. I happened to be one of those people who thinks Brittany Spears and her mother need a good spanking. Artists need to be aware of who their audience is and use appropriate themes and costuming, dancing, lyrics.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with rock n roll and a music genre. You sound like someone’s great grandfather. I throw it back on to parents, not rock n roll. Every generation has had scandelous dancing or songs. Ever heard any of the little ditties from the Civil War era? (History Channel: Sex and the Civil War] The difference is, parents didn’t let their children sing the songs or listen to them. My parents heard to music I was playing and if something wasn’t to their liking, the record disappeared. It only happened once. I believe it was something by the Hot Nuts as a matter of fact. My mother also took a few of my books off of the living room book case, put them in a paper bag ‘so the garbage man didn’t see the trash I was reading.’
Now, did books or reading cause increased sexuality? no. Does rock n roll? no. Do authors and artists increase our interest? An argument could be made.
It is that kind of thinking that makes me determined to drive puritanism back under the rock where it has been thriving. Blame Eminem for misogynistic crap, not rap.
I cannot believe that in 2011 we are having a conversation about the evils of rock and roll.
And let’s keep Dylan, Clapton, Lennon, Carly Simon and James Taylor separate from Eminem, and other gangsters.
LOL!!! Hot Nuts! My mother hated that album, but it was my girlfriend’s and she couldn’t confiscate it.
[for your mom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noIvo2it_Tw%5D
How was that for a flash back from the past?
Yea, Jutura, I agree. The evils of rock and roll took me a little by surprise. We could throw in some other greats like Buddy Holly, Richie Valens, Presley, Roy Orbison, the list goes on.
Check out the inductees in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. There are a lot of inductees I have not heard of.
http://rockhall.com/inductees/
M-h, I see Clark and crew played the college circuit for a long time. I think of “Animal House” when I think of the Hot Nuts band.
Frank Sinatra was a terrible father cheated on his wife and hung out with mobsters. Again, at what point do we stop blaming others. The Amish are always very happy to accept new members. There are the Old Order Amish, Black Bumper Amish, Church Amish and the Amish lite – Mennonites. Somehow they manage to survive this world by blocking out what they don’t agree with. I think they are very strong people and I have the upmost respect for their strength. And some here should attempt to emulate them. While I’m not as restricted – I’ve never watched American Idol, never saw one episode of Roseanne, MTV is not a consideration and fortunately my children disliked rap and gangster music. Maybe because we gave them other options and set an example by our actions.
No one has ever made me listen, watch, read or participate in anything that is not consistent with my beliefs or morals. That, folks is what happens when you decide early on that making sure you have options is paramount to a good life. And you decide to control your life.
Now if I could just lose 20 lbs…… 🙂
I knew our Governor wanted to privatize our ABC stores. Some how I don’t think this is what he meant by privatized. 😉
Looks like the boys in Franklin Co. have some competition in PWC. I saw the teaser on the news tonight, but didn’t see where this happened. Geesh…I should have known.
http://www2.insidenova.com/news/2011/feb/11/two-woodbridge-man-arrested-moonshine-bust-ar-837605/
So are you going to allow the mention of the two MURDERS that were just committed by an illegal in Manassas yesterday?
I think Craigslist should be banned by the government. It’s making people do bad things.
It was THREE murders, not two. Just keepin’ it real. Deportation should be immediate. Forget giving these illegal aliens time to get their affairs in order before the actual deportation.
It has already been discussed, earlier in the day. What do you mean ‘allow?’ It sounds like you have come here to pick a fight. I hope I am wrong.
We do frown on saying, ‘illegals.’ Illegal is an adjective and therefore isn’t plural. Feel free to say illegal alien, illegal immigrant, etc.
@Lafayette, why would you want him deported immediately? I want Mr. Ebert to try him and if found guilty, execute him like any other mass murderer.
Lafayette, a stint on a federal grand jury taught me that you can deport and a person will return, and return, and return. Better to try him here and let him serve his sentence.
I’m not saying deport him immediately now. I’m talking about the original deportation in 2002. As long as the feds fail to protect our borders, ports of entry they will continue to sneak back in to the good ole US of A. I had my own stint on Federal jury duty in 2007 for the same type of case. Needless to say I got sent packing. Especially since channel 5 aired a clip with me in it that was almost a month old.
Of course I want this illegal alien to face a jury here in PWC. We know what happens to those that are found guilty of capital crimes in our county. 🙂
Life isn’t kind to those who commit capital crimes in PWC or Manassas. I am glad you don’t want to deport him now. I want him to pay the piper,