Happy Valentines Day!

Watch out for those sneaky cupids. 

Guest Post by Lafayette

UPDATE
We are planning a Moonhowling’s Birthday Gathering. We’d like to see what dates below would work for the majority that would be interesting in attending. We’ll be at Mama Mia’s in Gainesville at 7669 Limestone Dr.. For more information visit their website http://mamamiapizza.net/ The time is firm 1pm to 4pm. 
Chosen Date: 
Sunday 2/27
 
1:00-4:00
 
Hope you can join us.

128 Thoughts to “Open Thread………………………………………..Monday, February 14”

  1. And on another note, if readers want to jump into the fray on the Georgetown South shooting, check out the bruhaha going on on Sean Kenney’s Bearing Drift.

    http://bearingdrift.com/2011/02/15/manassas-burning-everyone-hispanic/

    Sean takes issue with Jackson Miller’s histrionics on the floor of the General Assembly. He should have seen and heard him over KK’s. I guess we should be glad he didn’t take THAT to the floor of the GA.

    At any rate, a bunch of familiar names flew down to to Fluvanna County where Sean is a Republican Supervisor to rag on him and to remind him he has no ‘illegals’ down there. 🙄

    The dark side takes serious exception to what Sean has written. When I got the email with the bvbl post I thought the blog-meister was gnawing some peyote, speaking of histrionics.

  2. Censored bybvbl

    Why do Jackson Miller and the Black Velvets hate Manassas so much? They trash the poor City at every chance. It will be a miracle if they ever manage to sell their homes when their fear level has skyrocketted to the point where they can no longer tolerate living in the poor City. Now Shaun Kenney’s blog has been infested with the hysteria of all the tired, worn out old players and their nativist arguments. All these dimwits seem to think that had the feds deported this guy, these murders wouldn’t have happened. I guess they fail to realize that many felons manage to return. But as long as they (the Velvets and their ilk) can piss and moan and not pay higher taxes for border control or anything else, they’re easy to manipulate by the likes of Jackson Miller who, indeed, exploited a sad situation for political gain. (And as the City Council wrings its hands over the predictable players’ hysteria, it should consider how it’s empowering the wizard.)

    1. @Censored

      You ask an interesting question. First of all, Delegate Miller goes into his ‘city in flames’ speech on the floor of the General Assembly. Then he appears on Fox and Friends this morning with the same theme. First he tells Virginia that Manassas is a dangerous place to live. Just in case word doesn’t get around fast enough, Fox and Friends has a national audience. The message is repeated. Now everyone can think that they sure don’t want to come to Manassas because it is dangerous. To heard him speak, one would think we were all living in and around Ciudad Juarez.

      Isn’t the sesquicentennial this summer? Aren’t we trying to attract tourism to the fair City of Manassas? Do we really want all those people to avoid Manassas and Prince William County like the plague because they are fearful of being killed? I seem to remember a similar theme last summer…porno has moved into the City. More trumpeting about the the evils lurking in Manassas and all for political advantage. If I owned a business in the area I would be furious.

      Our elected officials have an obligation to always put our best foot forward in the public limelight. The Georgetown South massacre appears to be a direct result of domestic violence and overcrowding. The immigration status of the alleged shooter is somewhere way down the line and should be dealt with only after the other two primary issues have been addressed.

  3. Raymond Beverage

    “how easily totalitarian propaganda can control the enlightened people in democratic countries.”

    George Orwell wrote that in a commentary on “Animal Farm”. Me thinks with all the twisting and turning and name shouting, ole George must be commenting on the current moments in time.

    On another note, I have been following where my City Council and City Manager are getting beat up all over the place. Comments made how they have been taken to the woodshed. But stop and think – did ya ever notice how the City Council sits there and takes all the comments, not interfering with the person’s right to say what is on there mind, and generally just listening, or maybe taking a note? That applause or a momentary outburst is never gavelled down like in a larger Board Chamber? Not taking liberty, as another Chair does, to use priviledge to slam comments back?

    I personally give them credit – I could not sit half the time and listen to people slam me for things. If nothing else, you have to admire their conduct, strength and courtesy.

    1. Good for Raymond for giving credit where he feels credit is due regarding the City Council and City Manager. Its a lot more difficult to lead than to sit on the sidelines and criticize like many are doing. The City Council should be commended for its openess to everyone in the area, not just iits own citizens.

      Yes, they do not talk back like a certain chair does. Good for them! (and the chair is the only one allowed to talk back)

  4. Starryflights

    F-35 engine battle breaks out on GOP spending bill

    By ANDREW TAYLOR, Associated Press Andrew Taylor, Associated Press – 1 hr 37 mins ago
    WASHINGTON – The Obama administration’s campaign against a costly alternative engine for the Pentagon’s next-generation fighter jet faces a critical vote in the GOP-controlled House, its fate to be decided by more than 90 freshmen lawmakers who previously haven’t had to choose sides between two major defense companies.

    The expected vote Wednesday comes as the House enters its second day of debate on a $1.2 trillion spending bill that would wrap up the unfinished business lawmakers inherited after last year’s collapse of the budget process. That includes $1.03 trillion for agency operating budgets that need annual approval by Congress and $158 billion for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The engine battle pits Obama and Defense Secretary Robert Gates — who say the engine would waste almost $3 billion over the next few years — against GOP leaders like House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, whose state is a chief beneficiary. The spending measure includes $450 million for the engine, which would be built by the General Electric Co. and Rolls-Royce in Ohio, Indiana and other states.

    On the other side are lawmakers from Connecticut, where the main F-35 fighter engine is built by Pratt & Whitney, as well members from Florida, Texas and other states.

    The F-35 engine vote presents 87 GOP freshmen — infused with a fervor to cut spending — with a dilemma: Vote with the Obama administration to cut spending now or side with supporters of the alternative engine, who argue that it would save money by injecting competition into the F-35 program, the costliest weapons program in Defense Department history.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110216/ap_on_re_us/us_congress_spending;_ylt=AlTkYhzzdgPYOS9SbTvft2Ws0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNrYXBtazU1BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwMjE2L3VzX2NvbmdyZXNzX3NwZW5kaW5nBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMgRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDZi0zNWVuZ2luZWJh

    What’cha gonna do, Republicans?

  5. marinm

    @Starry, the F35 engine issue is a mess complicated by GE (TARP recipient) having spent $40M in 2010 to lobby Congress for the second engine (UT has spent 14.5M in anti-GE ads to defend P&W). Check your local Washington Post for the full page color ad’s.

    Both Messrs Bush and Obama have tried to kill that 2nd engine but Congress keeps funding it above the objection of the services and the SECDEF.

    Add in this wrinkle (Politico)

    The GAO, which has conducted at least two congressionally requested studies of the costly and much-delayed F-35 program, concluded in a March 22, 2007, report that congressional funding for the competing-engine plan would save billions of taxpayer dollars over the life of the program.

    Thus has been created one of Washington’s strangest funding battles in recent years: A government agency, GAO, is advocating in favor of competition, and nongovernmental organizations are opposing competition.

    This one has cluster written all over it and is a real challange.

  6. Starryflights

    Do the Republicans want to save money or not? This is a costly engine that the DOD doesn’t need or want. This should be a no brainer, yet the Republicans want to continue funding it.

  7. marinm

    @Starry, you do realize that under democratic control the program was funded these last 5 years?

    And the GAO says the 2nd engine will eventually save money.

    Do some research – it’s more complex than just a headline on Huffington.

  8. Starryflights

    Let’s get one thing clear. The Republicans are in charge now. If they want to cut spending, they’re free to do so. “The Democrats did it too” is a lame excuse for not making hard choices about spending.

  9. Starry,
    In that case, where is criticism of President Obama’s increase in spending, oh, sorry, investments. He’s voting “present” on the budget battle. It is good to see that you support the Republicans in making the hard choices in the House. I’m sure that you’ll be full of support when Reid’s Senate declines to support cuts and the President vetoes the 100 billion in cuts.

    Cherry picking the F-35 engine charlie foxtrot is just playing “gotcha” and you are exposing your own hypocrisy since you didn’t decry this budget battle over the last few years. Of course, the GOP is cutting elsewhere and according to the GAO is saving money by keeping the engine. Who’s right? You seem to always have the answers.

  10. How does flaming rhetoric about the Manassas area bode with the rest of the contributors on this blog? Is there ever fall out from the kind of speech being discussed on Bearing Drift and the dark side?

  11. Censored bybvbl

    I was pleased to read Bearing Drift because – aside from our local nativists who showed up – the responses reaffirm my respect for thinking Conservatives. It’s easy for a moderate or liberal (progressive, socialist,your choice of favorite slur) to think that the party has been totally hijacked by loons as of late. This seems particularly true locally both in the county and City if one listens to the most vocal citizens. Fear is a great motivator – fear of the “other”, fear of change, fear of crime. A couple of our local politicians are becoming very adept at using it.

    The problem with screaming hysterically about sensational crimes is that one risks scaring away the people who might visit or move here. A domestic violence incident gets blown into “Illegal Hispanics Running Wild While the Town Burns!” (As an aside, just don’t mention gun control or booze control.) If I were considering a visit to Manassas, I’d have to wonder if it would be a safe environment for my family. Will they be assaulted or murdered during the Sesquicentennial festivities? Could I visit one of Old Town’s good restaurants in the evening? Should I be leery of every Hispanic male I encounter – he may be here illegally and armed?

    The loudest screams are being made by many of the same people who brought us the “definition of family”, the Immigration Resolution, PantyGate, the massage parlor brouhaha, and women’s clinic protests. We know their tired, worn, politically motivated spiel. The irony is that they fail to see the harm they do to their own community. Rather than volunteering to solve some problems, they whine and blame others. (I’m particularly entertained by one poster who continuously rails against school spending while demonstrating that he, himself, took little advantage of it.)

    I suppose the silver lining of this dark cloud is that few people other than news junkies read the comment sections of newspapers, attend City Council or BOCS meetings, or read political blogs. I believe most people are content with their communities (otherwise they would attempt to move).

  12. Pat.Herve

    anyone catch Watson on Jeopardy? A credit to the people at the IBM Think Tank.

  13. marinm

    @Pat: What is Toronto????

    What’s amusing about that is that Watson is smart enough to know that we need to attack Kanada and claim it as a US territory and pluder it’s resources as our own.

    🙂

    For the F35, I have no skin in the game as I don’t think that VA is a supplier or builder for the F35 engine but I can understand how a person like Boehner will be of two minds on it. If they cut it – great. If they don’t – the GAO says we’ll save money.

    I’m more concerned with the overall cost overruns with that air vehicle than I am with one component of it.

  14. Steve Thomas

    I have intentionally stayed out of the fray on the topic of the GTS murders, until I felt the facts were sufficiently substantiated to a point I felt I could comment. I did comment on the Bearing Drift thread. I think Shaun Kenny is a fool. Not just for his comments on this topic, but on a number of other topics, and endorsements he has made over the years. What I find surprising is so many running to his defence, even though his post was rift with inuendo and half-facts.

    To be clear, I think Shaun Kenny a fool, and told him so. Not just for his ill-informed comments and conclusions on this topic, but for other questionable judgements made in the past (OT, but you can ask me if you see me). I also replied to a gentleman’s suggestion that a Manassas resident should “move” if they don’t like what’s happening here in Manassas. Since the indvidual admitted he does not live here, I think his argument is invalid.

    I watched both the HOD floor speech, and the FNC interview. Not once did Jackson mention race, say “Hispanic” or even utter the names of the perps. Yet, Kenny chooses to make this about race, as indicated in the title of his post. I also noted in both videos, Jackson repeatedly referred to the perps as “criminal illegal aliens, who had previous contact with law enforcement”. Regardless of your overall stance on immigration reform, I am sure we can agree at some level that those illegal aliens who commit serious crimes which pose a danger to the community, should be deported. I am also sure that we can agree that if said individuals are remanded to ICE for deportation, we should have an expectation that the fed will actually deport them. Call me crazy, but the fed should have to follow federal law, don’t you think?

    I don’t blame Jackson for getting angry and delivering a passionate speech on the floor of the HOD. Those who voted to pass the statewide 287g bill should know that it is intended to deal with the very cases the GTS murders, and all the other crimes Jackson mentioned, represent. I think those who voted against the bill should know this too.

    Now, for those, like Kenny who think Jackson is “waving the bloody shirt”, lest we not forget the HOD bill is in the Senate for their vote. These Senators who have in the past repeatedly voted against any statewide program need to understand that much of the community is demanding action.

    I disagree with those who “want to take the City Council to task for not doing enough”. I think the City Council is doing a commendable job reacting to the issue. I strongly believe that should they decide to move forward with Vice Mayor Harrover’s plan (which I contributed to, along with Ray and Cindy B), I think the City may be able to get proactive for a change. What the City council needs to hear is “hire the extra cops and code enforcement people, and if the budget is as lean as it can be, then a small increase in taxes is OK.”

    IMHO, Jackson’s comments are appropriate, and reflect the anger and frustration our community is feeling. Having a mechanism to deal with illegal aliens who commit SERIOUS crimes, and a measure of federal deportation accountability is paramount.

  15. Morris Davis

    Government employees with significant roles in the government procurement process are barred from lobbying their former agencies for a couple of years and forever on specific programs in which they were involved. There should be a similar rule for former lobbyist joining the government payroll. Instead, you’ve got recent lobbyist Dan Coates with a seat in the Senate and a bunch of recent lobbyists running members’ offices and committee staff. http://www.congress.org/news/2011/02/16/lobbyists_join_capitol_hill_staffs

  16. Rick Bentley

    “Is there ever fall out from the kind of speech being discussed on Bearing Drift and the dark side?”

    There are REAL, TANGIBLE THINGS – depressed wages, murders and rapes committed by illegal immigrants, busted city budgets – and then there are WORDS such as some of the ones spoken on bvbl that people take exception to.

    Some of the words spoken make me cringe, sometimes. But IMO it’s a mistake in priorities to focus on words, instead of the tangible things that are very messed up.

  17. Morris Davis

    Cato — I believe we found common ground.

  18. Cindy B

    The City of Manassas is not in flames. That was over the top. It got attention, but at what price? Similar to KKs.

    If you want to help with neighborhood watch, the Neighborhoods Work Group (next meeting is in March in Sumner Lake) or the 1 By Youth project May 14 in Point of Woods, talk to me at the county’s Neighborhood Conference on Feb. 26 or at Mama Mia’s the next day for Moonhowling’s birthday.

  19. Censored bybvbl

    Steve, you can hardly be called a dispassionate observer. Your role in HSM is well documented. Jackson Miller has certainly played the illegal immigration card as well. I saw the video 9500 Liberty had of HSM’s introduction of Republican candidates. Aside from the foolish use of Wagner as a segue into a bragging announcement of running “illegals” out of town, HSM organizers failed to consider how the use of “Help Save Manassas” unnecessarily gave the City a black eye. Perhaps a more civil tone and approach could have resulted in more police and zoning enforcement in neighborhoods within the City and PWC. HSM and Greg’s blog were incestuously entwined and neither appealed too much to the average person – to political junkies and some whose neighborhoods were impacted by overcrowding ,perhaps, but not to your average suburbanite.

    Shaun Kenney was not foolish. He merely has an opinion that differs from yours and many other people’s. On his blog you admonished someone for having an opinion on the incident in Manassas without having lived there. Yet you have an opinion on Georgetown South and the crime there (otherwise why come to Miller’s defense) without living there. The people living nearest the victims had nothing but sorrow and kind words for them. Perhaps their opinions of GTS are the valid ones and not those of Miller and the usual contingent of malcontents.

    The City and PWC have had to pay a price when trying to appease the screamers – whether in a Fair Housing lawsuit, the Immigration Resolution, the $70,000 study because of bunched panties over panties, etc. The typical local loudmouths cost the average Joe and Jane lost taxes which could be better spent elsewhere. Today’s news of the BOCS trying to sue the Feds is another example. The main fault I find with the City Council and BOCS is the failure to say “Enough already. Here are some areas in which you can volunteer to improve your neighborhood. Funds are tight, our attorneys advise us of what we can legally pursue and our chances of winning, and we’re not going down that road.” Perception doesn’t have to become reality. Sometimes it’s important to point out that perception is perception.

  20. hello

    @Morris Davis

    Agree with you Moe, however, they can make it a law/rule/guideline/promise (just to get elected) and then just submit a ‘waiver’ for whom ever they want. Just ask Obama… it only took what, 24 or so hours for him to start granting waivers?

    GREAT video of this hypocrisy (can you count the lies in just one 2 min clip?): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebxPaXjywzw&feature=related

  21. Steve Thomas

    Censored,

    I do not claim to be a “dispassionate observer”, nor will I run from my work as the operations chair at HSM. You reference the video of the HSM meeting, yet you know only the context that the film makers intended to portray. My use of “Die Valkrye” as an intro to the operations update was a reference to a scene in Apocalypse Now. Would the theme from “Patton” have been better?

    As I stated, my opinion regarding Shaun Kenney has been formed over many years, across numerous issues, going all the way back to his endorsement and defence of Steve Chapman for delegate, so I will hold on to it.

    Your comment about me not living in GTS makes no sense, really. My point to the commentor on Bearing Drift was he did not live in the City of Manassas or PWC, has no frame of reference for determining what is acceptable for someone who actually does, and shouldn’t dismiss the arguments of someone who does by saying “Move”. The fact is, I do live in Manassas, pay taxes in Manassas, and rate an opinion on what happens in Manassas. The fact that GTS is neighborhood in crisis is not debatable. And, I have volunteered to be part of the solution.

    Also, I disagree with your assertion that the City Council is being pushed and pressured by “usual contingent of malcontents”. I know each and every city council person, and what their positions are on regualting SOB’s and Illegal Immigration, as I have spoken extensively with every one of them on both of these issues. I can tell you that they are not being pushed in a direction they do not wish to go in. What they are doing is responding in a manner appropriate with their views on governance. This goes for regulating SOBs AND 287g.

    I also disagree with your assertion that HSM was anything other than a grass-roots movement. Sure, strategy was set and operations directed by people with some political experience, but this is true for almost any issue advocacy group. HSM had close to 2000 members at the height of the debate, and the vast majority were Joe and Jane sixpack.

    Now pehaps the use of a “city in flames” is a bit on the dramatic side, but I would imagine Miller’s phone and email exploded in the aftermath of the murders. I can understand where the passion comes from.

    So I ask, Censored, what solutions do you purpose? How would you have the City, and State proceed in light of the fact the Federal Government has clearly abdicated its legal responsibilities to secure the borders and deport criminals who happen to be present illegally in the US? Amnesty, if it is offerred, should be reserved for those who are demonstrably net contributors to our society, not rapists, gang members, murderers, habitual & feloneous drunk drivers. Are you saying we shouldn’t participate in 287g? Are you saying we shouldn’t make demands of our electeds?

  22. @Steve,

    I have not taken a stand on GTS because it seems obvious. We are all opposed to domestic violence,, especially violence that leads to murder(s). There still appear to be unanswered questions. (OT)

    I have asked myself if I would be more shocked,. appalled, disgusted, horrified, if those people had been killed by a legal immigrant or a native citizen. Frankly, no. The murders were an horrific event. My focus would be on preventing domestic violence and overcrowding. but that’s me and trust me, I realize I have been called names for saying nothing and for saying what I am saying now.

    I suppose if I were stupid enough to be a politician I would be trying to strengthen the 287(g) program and identifying where the loops holes are. I would be trying to assess whether or not I was getting the desired results from using the 287(g) program, especially based on the cost to the jurisdiction. 287g is dependent on the federal govt.

    Why didn’t Miller discuss Lexie Glover who died in a ditch. That death was obviously a system failure. How much money are we willing to sink into social services? Was n’t that budget just cut? What about the repeat habitual offender who causes 2 other people to be burned alive down 29 about 2 months ago? Why was this individual not in jail? How about the drunk driver, now doing jail time, who killed the grandmother and toddler after a Jimmy Buffett concert? A great deal could be done to cut down on alcohol consumption at those concerts at Jiffy Lube. These are all things that have potential ‘fixes’ so they don’t happen again.

    I don’t like criminals of any stripe. I would have appreciated serious talk rather than a fiery stump speech. As for Mr. Kenney, I don’t like some things that were said to him. There have been things he said in the past that I don’t agree with. I don’t think he is a fool but I don’t have to agree with everything a person says. As you have talked about, finding common ground is the first step.

    Jackson Miller (and all the other politicians) needs to realize that not all of us have chosen immigration to be our sword to fall on. He does the City and surrounding area no favors when his words make us seem like a third world nation. We want to attract business and tourists, especially with the sesquicentennial right around the corner. He honestly made it sound like we lived in an armed camp. If I didn’t know better, I would be afraid to bring my family here.

    Those who know me can use the map on the thread Mapping America to see that I live near one of the ground zeroes of the area. I don’t think Delegate Miller described my ‘hood even close. He needs to chose his words more carefully when describing our community. To do otherwise gives us a black eye.

  23. Censored bybvbl

    Steve, has the City Council been brow-beaten into listening to the same squeaky wheels or were they all of the same opinion before the noise began? If they were not brow-beaten, why weren’t the SOB regulations in effect a long time ago? Why wait until PantyGate?

    I realize that many people’s opinions make no sense to you unless they mirror your own. But if you feel that Brian’s or Shaun’s opinions are not valid because they don’t live in Manassas, why should your opinion of the situation in GTS matter since you don’t live there. I imagine that it’s because you live nearby so you’re concerned. As Virginia residents, they’re concerned for what happens within their state. Sensationalized speeches designed to push an agenda which effects the entire state matter to all Virginians. The residents of the Marumsco area of Woodbridge and the Westgate area of Manassas foisted off an Immigration Resolution which cost all of the residents of the county money that could have been better used. Those small hot spots cost me money so I should have a say. The Bearing Drift posters want to have a say about what the costs are to them as Virginians – just as you want to have a say as a Manassas resident about the conditions in GTS.

    HSM was too closely tied to FAIR and even the Republican Party (the large donation that went where?). Why did it go from 2000 members to sudden collapse?

    What would your reaction be if the killer in the GTS situation had been tried and deported earlier and had returned anyway? Blame the City? ICE? We have a rare opportunity as DC area residents. We can address our Senators, Congressmen, The Republican House Majority
    leader with an ease that few US citizens have. Go to their offices with your complaints. City Council, the BOCS, and Jackson Miller can do little to address your problems.

    BBL…have to pick up the family terror.

  24. If living in the City is a criteria for having an opinion, then perhaps I should not. I don’t live in GTS or the City.

  25. marinm

    Can someone clarify the overcrowding issue? It was referenced a few times above but I’m not sure we can claim there is a overcrowding issue if the foreclosure and vacancy rate of homes is still so high – or am I missing something? I’d like to learn more….was the domestic issue caused because of a ‘rent’ or space dispute?

  26. Steve Thomas

    “What would your reaction be if the killer in the GTS situation had been tried and deported earlier and had returned anyway? Blame the City? ICE?”

    I don’t blame the city or the state for anything in this case. The City has had 287g in place for several years, and had the perp had contact with law enforcement post-implementation, he would have been caught. If ICE had actually deported him, and he snuck back in, then the only blame would be we have lax border enforcement. But the fact is, he was ordered deported years ago, and this deportation never occurred.

    Censored, don’t get me wrong, everyone is entitled to their own opinion about anything. You, me, MH, Saun Kenney, and this Brian fellow. My issues with Shaun Kenney’s comments speak to his judgement, not to his opinion, no matter how much I disagree with it. Sure, statewide 287g will impact all Virginians, but that wasn’t his point. His point was Miller is wrong, PWC is wrong, and Manassas is wrong for wanting to deal with an issue that has barely touched the jurisdiction where he lives. Brian, on the otherhand, was dismissive of Patty, who was trying to express the justifiable frustration over the state of things in Manassas, with regards to the illegal aliens living here. How would you react if when you express your disagreement with 287g, or gay marriage, or any other issue, I said: “Don’t like it, Move”. And how would you like it if I made these comments from say, Bristol? What’s that old saying about walking a mile in another man’s shoes?

  27. Lafayette

    Moon-howler :If living in the City is a criteria for having an opinion, then perhaps I should not. I don’t live in GTS or the City.

    Oh, I think we county residents can have an opinion. Especially those of that live within a five minute walk to either of the cities situated in Prince William County. It was the PWCPD that caught the perp, afterall. The other reason is the number of SHARED services the city uses of the county’s for this case, such as our courts and jail. Yes, I do realize that they pay for those services.

  28. Steve Thomas

    Moon,

    I equate this to someone who was arrested and prosecuted for child molestation, and given probation, only to rape and kill a child later. Why wasn’t this person in Jail? Yes, Lexie Grover was a failure of the system, and people get killed by drunk drivers all the time. Mrs. T worked the case you referenced. The driver was not a habitual offender, but your point is taken. However, context matters. His comments were directly related to the bill he referenced which is now in the Senate. Was his anger genuine? I’d say yes. But Jackson Miller has always worked to curb the imapcts of illegal aliens in the jurisdictions he represents.

    I don’t agree/dislike many of the comments made to Shaun Kenney, such as those claiming he’s a “race traitor” (although I couldn’t find where someone made the comment, only his inferrence that it had been made). But as I said, my opinion of him isn’t based solely on this topic. It goes way back to my first interactions with him in 2005. Back when he was criticizing Harry Parrish every chance he got. Back when he was one of the VCAP golden boys. I thought many of his positions/comments foolish then, as I do now.

    Help me out here, please. Do people here think 287g is a bad thing? Do people here think that aprehending and deporting illegal aliens who commit hienous crimes or are habitual offenders is somehow wrong, and those who support these actions are worng as well? I can understand folks not being happy with the costs, but is the cost of enforcing 287g that great a burden that we should just let criminals do whatever they want? Is it wrong for people who are fed up with the condidtion of things to ask their government via their electeds to do something? That is the impression I am getting from some of the posters. We aren’t talking about raiding day laborer sites. We are talking about deporting serious criminals. We are talking about demanding at the Fed do what they promise, and do what they are LEGALLY bound to do, and when they fail, turning to state and local government.

  29. No one can move in PWC if they own a house.

    Steve, I am in a lurch because this is all a Republican thing and as you know, I am not one. So some goes over my head. However, I do know that Chris Christie told someone if they didn’t like the rules of the game they should get another job. I thought that was harsh since the person he was addressing was a career teacher.

    I am not going to get into rehashing old stuff. Everyone pretty much knows I am one of those flaming liberal middle of the road people on this subject. I do think we need to take a look at what 287g is really getting us. Is there a flaw in the system? Didn’t we just pass more state-wide 287g stuff today down in Richmond? If it is so flawed and people like the GTS shooter fell through the cracks, why do we want the entire state to go on it?

    I think the question needs to be, how do we get criminals off the street and how do we protect society. Too bad we can’t discuss fixes without a million fingers pointing at others.
    There are no easy answers. I sure would be renting houses for local cops in GTS. PWC had a lottery. Perhaps the City could emulate.

  30. DB

    Do we know if the perp was in court when he was ordered to be deported, or was he not there when he was ordered to be deported? I ask this because one of the assailants of Miguel Hernandez had a deportation order against him, but failed to show up in court the day he was ordered to be deported and could not be located at his last known address after the order was issued. He remained under the radar until the murder of Miguel. If the perp in the GTS murders didn’t show up in court when he was ordered to be deported and was no longer at his last known address, agents probably couldn’t locate him at the time. I am curious though as to why the deportation order wasn’t flagged in 2008 when he received his citation for public intoxication. Had he gone to the jail and been processed it is very likely that his deportation order would have been discovered and he would have been deported. However, according to the media stories, he was not brought to the jail, and he paid the fine and didn’t even show up in court for the hearing. What I would like to know though is whether or not the police ran his name through their computer when issuing him the citation, and if they did why didn’t his deportation order pop up? Did/do the police not have access to the same info as the jails do, or did the perp use a false name/SSN to avoid detection? I’m just full of questions:)

  31. Censored bybvbl

    Steve, no, it isn’t wrong to want 287g, but a participating jurisdiction should observe its guidelines and not play the prima dona by wanting everything done its (the local or state jurisdiction’s) way. If every participant was as demanding as PWC is being, the limited resources would be spread far thinner. I think there are only about 70+ participants nationwide. Instead of being thankful for the extra help, PWC runs the risk of looking like demanding asses. The feds can always do away with 287g and stick with Secure Communities.

    I think Shaun Kenney was right about Miller’s hyperbole laden speech. It was in poor taste and smeared Manassas needlessly. I think it would have been more appropriate for him to use his experiences as a cop and the problems he saw with repeat criminals or felons without alluding to immigration status. A murder victim is dead regardless of the killer’s immigration status. And deportation means nothing to someone determined to return.

    A hint on music: avoid Wagner when you’re discussing a topic which even vaguely hints of ethnic cleansing.

  32. Censored bybvbl

    DB, I think it is only recently that names in police databases and fingerprints (from the FBI) have been matched up quickly.

  33. IVAN

    @ DB, in 2002 when the deportation order was issued it was considered a “civil” offense. When he was arrested in 2008 and his name was run through the police computer his name didn’t come up as having a criminal warrent against him.

  34. Raymond Beverage

    @marinm

    Marinim, you asked about defining overcrowding in a house…

    general rule of thumb under HUD guidelines is if there are more than two persons to a bedroom. For health & welfare, that is considered to be around 60sq ft per person. Unfortunately, a “bedroom” per HUD can be any room which has a door, and also a window. The window being a means of emergency exit.

    Local ordinances structured following HUD guidelines can set the number of people who can be in one bedroom. Often, these are based on ages and sex. For example, if you have three boys, they can all share one bedroom till 18. If you have a boy and a girl, they can share the same bedroom up until (in most cases) age 10. Gotta watch that puberty issue.

  35. Morris Davis

    Everyone should be outraged at whoever was in charge of the executive branch in 2002 and 2008!

  36. Steve Thomas

    Censored,

    You do have a valid argument. You imply that because Hitler liked Wagner, the music itself is tainted by association. A history scholar might make the association, but your average joe would think Apocalypse now. However, by your rationale, anything by the Beatles should hint of mass murder. Afterall, Charles Manson was a big Beatles fan, right?

  37. Censored bybvbl

    Steve, no, Wagner’s own writings about Jewish composers as being alien to their culture – not Hitler’s admiration of his music – is the condemning reason.

  38. BS in VA

    @ Raymond: In Virginia, overcrowding as far as the Property Maintenance Code is concerned deals with area of sleeping accomodations per person. A one person bedroom must have at least 70 square feet with no dimension of the room less than 7 ft. For a two person room, there must be at least 100 square feet. Then add a person for every 50 square feet thereafter. 150sq.ft. for 3 peolpe, 200 sq.ft. for four and so on.

  39. marinm

    @Raymond Beverage

    Thanks for the info. Good to know. And, I assume that in this situation overcrowding was the cause of the murders? Or, a contributing factor?

    @Starry, http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-02-16/house-kills-f-35-engine-funds-in-defeat-for-boehner.html What’cha got now? Or, should I say.. NEXT!

    I also saw that Congress also killed METRO funding. I’m OK with that as I don’t see a reason a farmer in Idaho should be paying for our transportation system with his taxes…METRO should be self sufficient.

  40. It makes me think of Fantasia. Does that mean I am trapped in an arrested stage of development?

  41. Steve Thomas

    Moon,

    I think it means you like good music, inspite of who wrote it, or who claimed to like it also.

  42. @Steve, I didn’t see one of your posts. I think most people here support the 287g program. I think some questions have arisen just recently. Is the program doing what we wanted it to do? Is it removing dangerous criminal illegal immigrants from our community and tracking those with multiple identities? There seems to be some indication that it is falling short. How do we fix it?

    And…is this something we want to go statewide for other jurisdictions to have to pay for out of their own pockets if we are finding bugaboos in our program?

    I think those are questions we need to be asking. It certainly doesn’t mean that I don’t support the concept of 287g. Just doing some dip sticking to see that it works.

    I want all criminals off the street.

    Certainly people are free to speak for themselves here but I think I am assessing the situation correctly.

  43. Cindy, thanks for that link. I am glad both of those bills got shot down.

    I am glad the lingafelter bill is gone because I don’t think we can ask other localities to pick up the tab for something like that. In fact, we have a nerve! That’s the only main reason.

    The Peace bill that was also co-sponsored by Jackson Miller. I feel very strongly about this ex-bill. I don’t like codifying glass ceilings that tell people they have no hope of ever going to college. I especially dont like that being told to kids who have worked hard and done the right thing. In fact, this was the only bill I felt strongly about.

  44. Elena

    Just as an FYI, many jewish weddings do not play Wagners’ bridal chorus, not only was he seen as being an antisemite, but the Germans often played his music (not his fault though)during the walk to the gas chambers. My hubby wanted something traditional (in his mind)so I did walk down the aisle to the Bridal Chorus.

    Steve,
    I was very surprised when you called Sean a fool. I thought his post, though very strong, demonstrated a clear point of view. I have often thought on one hand the repubublicans abhor the federal government dictating what states should do and yet, jackson miller is suggesting that the state dictate what every local in Virginia should be forced to do via immigration enforcement. It was not free, by any stretch of the imagination, to implement the additional check at the jails. PWC already had 287G in place. Furthermore, where is the cost benefit analysis?

    In one way I am thankful for HSM, JOhn STirrup, and Corey and I will tell you why. Because of the requirement to check EVERY single persons status who is arrested, it has become crystal clear, that a mere 7% of felonies are committed by undocumented immigrants. So, for that 7%, if we spent 4 million implementing the new program, one by the way, Corey swore over his dead body would NEVER take out probable cause (which he did), how much does that translate into per person dollars spent? Crime was DECREASING before the resolution went into effect, where exactly was the safety crisis in PWC?

    The death of anyone due to violence is waste, a horrible shameful waste of human life. But just like many who are second amendment purists, even after horrible crimes like the tragedy with Gabby Giffords, the talk of gun control hit a massive wall. The mantra was you cannot take a few horrible events and turn civil rights on its head. I would say the same about these crimes, yes, they were horrible, but horrible crimes happen all the time. When we see white moms kill their children, do you want to prevent white women from having children? Of course not, there are bad apples in every gender, race, creed, religion, ethnicty, you can’t legislate based on fear, and that is what Jackson Miller has been advocating. Preventing hard working young people from attending college is shameful in my opinion. If we have so few spots in our public colleges for kids striving to better themselves, our problems a hell of alot bigger than the small number of immigrant kids wanting to go to school!

  45. Starryflights

    Obama, GOP freshmen win in jet engine budget fight

    By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent David Espo, Ap Special Correspondent – 56 mins ago

    WASHINGTON – Determined to reduce deficits, impatient House Republican freshmen made common cause with President Barack Obama on Wednesday, scoring their biggest victory to date in a vote to cancel $450 million for an alternative engine for the Pentagon’s next-generation warplane.

    “Right here, right now was a surefire way to reduce spending,” declared Rep. Tom Rooney of Florida, a second-term lawmaker whose summons to cut money from the F-35 fighter jet was answered by 47 Republican newcomers. Speaker John Boehner and other House GOP leaders back the funding.

    The incursion into the defense budget occurred as the Republican-controlled House debated legislation to cut federal spending by more than $61 billion through the end of the current fiscal year. Nearly all of the reductions are aimed at domestic programs, ranging from education aid to nutrition, environmental protection and farm programs.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110217/ap_on_re_us/us_congress_spending;_ylt=Al2246KUtne70G6p82LD4QCs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJsOHFydjRqBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwMjE3L3VzX2NvbmdyZXNzX3NwZW5kaW5nBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNvYmFtYWdvcGZyZXM-

    According to the article, all of Virginia’s congressmen voted unanimously to continue the funding. There is a GE plant in Virginia that made that version of that engine.

  46. Cindy B

    Well said, Elena. Also, I don’t think anyone has talked about the fact that alcohol abuse helped fuel this tragedy. Steve’s church has been outstanding in its outreach to the GTS neighborhood. In addition to starting a food pantry, clothes closet and ESL classes at the community center, they also offer AA meetings.

  47. Morris Davis

    When rhetoric and reality clash.  From Politico. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49697.html

    Sixty-eight Republicans, backed Democrats in defense of preserving at least reduced funding for legal aid to the poor, for example. Minutes later, 70 Republicans joined 158 Democrats on a 228-203 vote that restored $280 million for the Community Oriented Policing Services or COPS program, a favorite initiative of Vice President Joe Biden. And given the power of the firefighter lobby, the dike seemed to break when as many as 132 Republicans backed an amendment by Rep. Bill Pascrell (D-N.J.) to restore $510 million for Homeland Security grants for first responders.

  48. Big Dog

    http://www.slate.com/id/2285387

    Hopefully, both liberals and conservatives support “consumer protection”.

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