Newly elected Governor Scott Walker has a huge problem on his hands. Many in his state are in rebellion against him over what are seen as draconian cuts to public employees. He also has attempted to neuter unions’ power trying to restrict collective bargaining.
President Obama has thrust himself into Wisconsin’s boiling budget controversy:
Obama accused Scott Walker, the state’s new Republican governor, of unleashing an “assault” on unions in pushing emergency legislation that would nullify collective-bargaining agreements that affect most public employees, including teachers.
The president’s political machine worked in close coordination Thursday with state and national union officials to mobilize thousands of protesters to gather in Madison and to plan similar demonstrations in other state capitals.
Speaker of the House John Boehner rebuked President Obama for criticizing the governor. Additional demonstrations are popping up in Indiana and Ohio, where similar efforts are underway to curb union power.
Under Walker’s plan, most public workers – excluding police, firefighters and state troopers – would have to pay half of their pension costs and at least 12 percent of their health-care costs. They would lose bargaining rights for anything other than pay. Walker, who took office last month, says the emergency measure is needed to save $300 million over the next two years to help close a $3.6 billion budget gap.
To add fuel to the fire, Democratic senators have sequestered themselves away in an undisclosed location to keep a quorum from forming. Republicans and bloggers are calling them cowards while those supporting the unions and public employees are cheering them on. By not showing up, the Democrats were able to block legislation that would cut paychecks and take a huge chunk out of union rights.
Some of those interviewed said they were willing to negotiate pay but they were not willing to give up any union rights, especially those dealing with collective bargaining. Public employees would have to pay a larger share of their retirement and also their health care. In some cases, a married couple, both who were teachers, figured that they would lose $1200 a month. The average teacher pay in Wisconsin is about $48,000.
Stay tuned. This situation isn’t over and it is spreading.
Just an interesting aside, Three of the public employees are not included in the legislation.
State Troopers, Local Police and Firefighters(although they are demonstrating anyway).
Would you like to guess which three public employee unions backed the Governor in his election? You guessed it!
@Bear, tell me it isn’t true.
And good for the firefighters for supporting the others.
By the way, the state employees that are prison guards are grouped in with the teachers by the governor. The guards union supported his democratic rival.
There are 314 police and firefighter locals in Wisconsin. A whopping 4 supported Walker, the other 310 supported the Democrat: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2011/02/18/VI2011021802626.html?hpid=topnews
Nice try, but you should really vet your talking points better.
@Mando
Oh, please… The majority of teachers are women. How paternalistic of you to think they should work for beans. I guess those little women are just working for pin money and don’t have to support families. Maybe all those IT guys pigging it up on defense contractors’ salaries should just take pay cuts and do their work for the love of country.
Many private school teachers don’t have to have much in the way of certifications either. But the little women are probably just doing it for love so qualifications and pay don’t matter.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2011/02/_please_support_my_good.html
Video of Gov. McDonnell supporting Gov. Walker.
Why is the Police and Firefighters not required to give up the Collective Bargaining also?
@ Cato: You linked the Governor’s interview. He was the one to give you that staistic about the number of police and fire fighters’ unions not the Washington Post. I listen to every politician knowing that they may embellish the truth. I’ll wait until I hear from an unbiased source before I believe either Maddow or your governor. I recommend you do the same.
Watching and reading the coverage of the situation in Wisconsin and you can see a massive difference in how the media is handling this and how they handled TP protests.
It’s also interesting that with all the talk of civility on the left the Governor being called Hitler, Mussolini, Mubarak, Voldemort (republican legislators are DeathEaters), and the use of riflescopes on pictures of the Governor as some examples.
In other news it seems that TP and other conservative groups are mobilizing a counter protest to support Gov. Walker.
I see this going on for atleast two weeks.
@marin, why 2 weeks.
Actually I watched Faux News and MSNBC. One made me just about as angry as the other. It was like comfort food. I never saw any of those people listed and no one should be using riflescopes. Don’t assume everyone out there is a leftie. Many teachers aren’t.
Why is the TP getting involved? I started off real middle of the road on this yesterday and I feel like a wave of nastiness has pushed me left…into being a union groupie.
Imagine those worthless public employees wanting to keep their union power. How selfish. Imagine them not wanting to take pay cuts the size of a mortgage. Selfish louts.
They should be providing those services for free!! [sarcasm button on}
Moonhowler
From what I’ve read of your blog, you always come down on the good side. AFL-CIO newsletters are also awesome, if you want to be a Union fan. Richard Trumka is a spectacular human being.
Richard Trumka at his best:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-trumka/who-are-you-calling-names_b_619991.html
The TP is getting involved because public employees are disrupting the political process, demonstrating in the street, taking fake sick days, and using “violent rhetoric”, all to demand more non-existent tax money. The unions are more worried about their power, their monopoly on public employees, than they are the students, parents, and other taxpayers. If the governor can’t reach a deal with them, he will have to fire many of the teachers.
What has the Tea Party done that makes you support the unionists that are protesting in the streets, falsely taking sick days, disrupting school, etc? That couple said that they will be taking a $1200 per month hit? Is that together or each? And if the governor is not reducing their pay other than forcing them to pay for some of their retirement (50% return on your money is pretty good) and their medical insurance (12%? That’s all?) how much is that couple making that $1200 per month comes from the payments for insurance and retirement?
At least these people HAVE jobs. The people paying them… don’t.
The poor people you are pretending to care about support Unions.
@Boy, I am not anti union, I am just not pro union. I don’t think all unions are good. I don’t think all are bad. Case by case. I don’t like closed shop. I live in a right to work state and that has just always been what I have lived with.
I think anyone who wants to join a union should be able to and that people should not have to join one to be gainfully employed. I support the public employees of Wisconsin to keep their right to collective bargaining. I never had it in my career.
@Cargo, I don’t think that the employees are disrupting the political process. Perhaps some of the legislators are putting it on pause as political maneuver but that is not the fault of the employees.
How does that differ from those scum bag legislators out on the veranda of the capital holding up signs and cheering on the TP people? How is their demonstration any different than the public employees of Wisconsin domonstrating? First amendment for one but not the other?
What happened to the Wisconsin surplus? Was it given to corporations as a tax break? The employees have said that they will consider taking a pay cut. What they will not compromise on is their right to collective bargaining. It really isn’t about money. Its about not allowing yourself to be stripped of any economic power. There is a major difference.
This isn’t just about teachers but so he fires teachers. Interesting. And who will teach the children? What’s he going to do? Close the schools? Works for me.
I just decided this morning I am tired of the war on public employees. I think it gives folks some sort of air of superiority. Not sure where that comes from. I come from a long line of public employees and they weren’t ashamed of the work they did so neither am I. What I really love is that I am not a public employee and can say exactly what I want.
And as a taxpayer, like everyone is (it hardly makes any of us unique–iof we don’t pay them we go to jail.) I would never say ‘I pay your salary.’ No I don’t. I contribute to the public coffers. Nothing more nothing less.
Yes, I have steam coming out of my ears today. Thank you for asking. I will calm down though because I have lived long enough to know that the saner part of America will run these clowns out of town on a rail in an election cycle or 2. The pendulum swings……
Yeah, I remember those good old union days. Grew up in a UAW family. Got a job in a closed shop in order to earn money for college. I was a “trucker.” In my case, it meant that I was the one who brought the raw stock (pistons, they were) out of the warehouse, placed them on racks, and moved them from machinist to machinist so they could machine the things to precise specifications. Once a rack was finished, I pushed it to the next machinist and finally to the finished room. In between pushing, I took a broom and swept the metal shavings up so the other guys wouldn’t have them underfoot. I was a naive kid in those days. I was glad to have that job, and I worked like Hell at it. When I left the night shift to go home, that large shop floor was clean as whistle. And each machine had a nice full rack of pistons waiting for the guys on the next shift.
One night the union steward took me aside for a private chat. It seemed that I was working too hard. I was to stop leaving the shop floor so clean at the end of my shift and leaving each machine ready to go when the next shift showed up. Seems the day trucker felt I was sort of making it look like his job wasn’t as busy in the early hours of his shift as he would like it to look. So, for the rest of that job, the last few hours of my shift were spent largely sitting on my ass in the stock room while still earning a full pay check. Great lesson of life that was for a young feller.
BTW, that factory where I worked.? They had over 5000 employees in the plant. The company left town several decades ago, looking for a place where they could cut down on the labor costs because they were being priced out of the market by union contracts. Even moved part of the operation to Canada. Last year, they tore the leftover shell of the plant down. Nothing left of it but one little office building for something or other. Nothing new there. That Michigan town was once an industrial center. Now there is scarcely a major employer left. During the Vietnam War era, when the troops came home, most of them could find a job in those local industries. Now our returning veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan can often find nothing more than minimum wage. Yeah, tell me all about Trumka and his ilk. And I’ll show you a once thriving blue collar industrial city where straight, unvarnished unemployment has long been nudging toward the 15-20% level and even the shopping centers are folding. Last year they had to withdraw the lifeguards from the beaches because the city could not longer afford to pay them. And those beaches are about the only major revenue source the town has left.
I think that “once upon a time” unions played a vital role. Workers, many of whom were children, worked for a pittance in inhumane conditions. But those days are long gone, because labor laws and minimum wage requirements have removed those conditions. Now the labor unions are IMHO a force for instability in the economy. They are effectively pricing American workers out of the market so that companies move overseas and states/municipalities are bankrupted. There is no “right” for the public sector to bargain collectively and there is no reason that teachers and other public workers should expect to receive pensions and healthcare without paying for them at the same rate as the general public, particularly when it comes on the backs of many who may unemployed.
This situation reminds me of the air traffic controllers strike under Reagan. Those workers asserted the right to strike even though it placed the public at risk. Reagan responded by breaking the union. It would not be an altogether bad outcome for the same thing to happen again.
And all this union busting has gotten us where? First the textile and manufacturing jobs moved south to avoid union shops. And then they were still dissatisfied with the profit margin and moved out of the country. And we blame the little people, the union members, for this. Bwahaha. Maybe a frank discussion by politicians about the future of the work force here would be in order.
We wanted to win the cold war by making little capitalists out of out enemies – by getting them used to being consumers and buying our stuff. The problem is, with their extremely cheap labor force, they figured out how to make stuff for much less than we did and we’ll be the ones who are left without jobs. And the pols have figured out that by keeping us mad at each other, we don’t look at them.
Wolverine, I had a temporary job where I could finish my work in 3 hours instead of the 8 hours that I had to be there. I kept asking for work to make the time go by faster. I ended up doing two other people’s jobs. It wasn’t a union job and I, too, caught flak from the slowpokes. It’s not a problem limited to unions.
Kelly, obviously there is no right to collective bargaining or binding arbitration. However, I believe there is a right to form employment groups, thus unions. That one was fought for and won by some pretty horrific battles.
I have never been pro or anti union. I have all sorts of sympathy for these people. Much of my sympathies were formed in the past 48 hours. The Wisconsin governor is on overkill.
He is union busting.
The bill that they object to removes the collective bargaining from the pensions and benefits, not from salary. The part that is really making the unions worried is that the bill they are trying to stop makes Wisconsin a “Right to work” state. THAT is what this fight is about. The rest is only to get the protesters riled up.
When I say that they are disrupting the political process, I am talking about their invasion of the actual legislative room. Otherwise, hey, the more protesters the merrier! Someone will be selling souvenirs.
@Cargo, and that is a pretty big deal if you are a die hard union person. After seeing all of this come alive in my living room, I now understand more about how people feel about their union. Imagine what would happen to these people who weren’t in a union.
Cargo,. is that the only thing that bothers you, that they have come inside?
If you remove collective bargaining, then that might include salary collective bargaining. You can’t just cut it out of one part of the process. With collective bargaining gone, They really have nothing.
No collective bargaining, you are really at the mercy of whatever anyone wants to give you. Question: do Wisconsin employees have health benefits paid post retirement or just up until retirement?
They will probably be docked for these days. They are willing to do that and feel it is worth it.
I am still hearing about these benefits….and things that every employer must pay are not benefits, regardless of what they are calling them. FICA, Workman’s comp, and other taxes/fees requied of everyone by state, local and federal govt. are not benefits.
What is happening is really misleading. Now I hear some of the teachers are getting $44k in benefits. That is just so bogus. I am just going to start calling it a lie. That’s what it is.
Keep in mind, part of what drove Harley out of Milwaukee was rising union salaries.
And in my personal view, the Governor considering to have the WI Supreme Court, as those elected folks violated their Oath of Office, issue arrest warrants is one smart move. Not only walked out, but left the State. This will be interesting to watch as there is no precedent I have ever heard of, except in the Military, where you can be charged for violating your Oath of Office. It is no longer anywhere near an issue of ethical behavior.
Get some, Governor!!!
It’s interesting how public salaries and benefits have become so attractive… When I left the private sector and went to government, my salary dropped over $25k. I lost the annual Christmas bonus and incentive pay as well. However, I did get a defined pension program and figured the drop in income over the remainder of my earning years while a loss would be palatable..
Not so long ago my retired military friend working for Booz Allen told me that it would be imposssible to take a job with government as they had living standards that needed to be met and they just didn’t know how we did it or what on earth we would live on in retirement.
The situation in Wisconsin is ridiculous… legislators hiding out, attempts to increase health contrib and pension contrib at the same time breaking a union…. I would support the health and pension contrib.
The animosity I’m feeling toward public employees like me is terrible – I’ve never supported a union, but now am thinking it might look like a good idea if this continues. A lot of good people are getting swept up in this latest broadsweeping ‘rage’. Not all government workers are fat, lazy, slipper wearing, bag of chip hugging slugs who are overpaid, underworked and get $12k bonuses from our union at Christmas. That I get. But far too many are being caught in undertow.
thank you for expressing how I feel……Wendy.
I feel the animosity also. I feel like it is a war. I have never been a union person either. I am not with those people in spirit.
These public service employees are not indentured servants. If they are unhappy with their pay and benefits, nothing prevents them from leaving their present employment. Like the rest of us, they are free to market their skills and negotiate a better compensation package with potential new employers. But by allowing collective bargaining, the state is being manipulated into paying higher wages and benefits than these people could achieve otherwise. The elephant in the room is that many of these people are already compensated well above their true market worth.
@kelly, yea you could say that about every worker in America. These people are no different than any other workers, just because they are public employees.
Do you not see a problem with allowing some public employees to keep collective bargaining and disallowing it for others?
That just tells me something stinks. As a Virginian, this has never been something I have had to deal.
Who gets to decide what their true market worth is?
I suppose as long as nurses, teachers, librarians, state engineers, college professors etc are paid by states then they will always be resented. Odd that athletes are paid millions and no one blinks.
I believe the real reason for all this hoopla is that Governor whats his name and his bud’s took the surplus and gave tax cuts to those corporations with the big campaign contributions. Meanwhile, if they can do some union busting, it will be helpful to the 2012 election. However, when you get old like Bear and me, one grows cynical and wise to the dishonest ways of men. These poor blokes outside the Wisconsin capitol building are just pawns.
Mr. Howler says that state building is tiny.
On more thing, back to the elephant…many of those interviewed have said they are willing to negoitate salary. However, they aren’t going to stand still for union busting. Perhaps the elephant is just a baby elephant.
Censored — It would seem to me that the difference between us and our long-ago jobs was that you COULD decide to do what you did. I, on the other hand, was in no position to tell the union steward to go stuff it or to find make-work things to fill my idle time. There were people literally lined up at the plant employment office just a half block away. These were people looking for a means to survive, not college kids hoping to cut down on the need for student loans. I was darned lucky to have that job and in no position whatsoever to upset the routine in that place. In those days and in that place, the union spelled power, over the table and under the table. I lived in what was called a “union town.” It was sort of like a religion.
This is beginning to sound like the discussions I once had with my late father, who had been a UAW member and volunteer all his life. He knew the score. He was a scrupulously honest man and the one who taught all his kids to give their best effort in everything — in other words, to earn your bread honestly. He came into the UAW when the union was still fighting for its life against the resistance of the captains of industry. It was from him that I learned much about how the unions had, indeed, improved the wages and working conditions for employees. He maintained that unionization was a necessary thing and that the unions were to be lauded for those accomplishments.
But he also told me that a great deal of poor judgement had begun to insert itself into the equation and that the unions were approaching a time when they were killing the goose which was laying the golden eggs. And, sure enough, about the time he first told me these things, one of the largest manufacturing firms in the city pulled up stakes and went South because they could not compete under the current labor cost burden. That really caused a local stir; but, still, no effort was made to rethink the thing. In the end, the jobs just went away, including the jobs of many of my other relatives. And the unions could do nothing about it.
One by one the plants went away, and each time the unions fussed and fumed but never stepped back from always demanding bigger and better salaries and benefits. You go to that town now and you will see many empty shells of factories, most of which had produced an enormous amount of the materials which helped us to win both world wars. It is a sad sight. It is like witnessing the death of the place in which you were born and raised. And yet, elsewhere in that state, where factories still operated, you saw such outlandish schemes as union laborers under contract being allowed to sit on their behinds for days without doing an ounce of work. It’s the contracts, fellows. The contracts.
I agree with my late father. The unions were an absolutely necessary thing in the era of unionization and are to be honored for it. My father would point to the previous generation to bolster his point; and, as a genealogist and family historian, I have confirmed his truth. As one of my late uncles emphasized to me, my grandfather was in a real bad place. He was a factory worker at low wages and with absolutely no benefits whatsoever, born too early even for Social Security. Men in his position had to work until they dropped. There were no “Golden Years.” But, as it was to my father, it became evident to me that the unions did not know how and when to sensibly limit their demands. No one agreed to sit down and look seriously at the whole picture in order to find a way to save the proverbial goose.
Just this year I drove by a plant that had a world-wide reputation for its products and had employed the citizens of our town for over 100 years. Empty. Not a car in the huge parking lot. Not a sound from the rusting machines left inside. I had all my life been so used to seeing that plant all abustle, but this time it seemed almost as if somebody in your family had passed away. But there was some new construction right next door. The “rescue mission” is adding a dormitory wing for the down-and-out.
I think there are those in Wisconsin and Washington, D.C., who ought to stop yelling about “union busting” and sit down together to discuss a very real fiscal problem, the solution to which is badly needed by everyone.
Nearly 70,000 people at the (WI) capital today as pro-Walker forces with TEA Party Patriots and Americans for Prosperity are counter protesting.
My favorite sign is. “Sorry, we’re late Scott. We work for a living.” Classic
On the positive.. Get out of work “sick” cards are being handed out..
Doctors from numerous hospitals set up a station near the Capitol to provide notes covering public employees’ absences. Family physician Lou Sanner, 59, of Madison, said he had given out hundreds of notes. Many of the people he spoke with seemed to be suffering from stress, he said.
“What employers have a right to know is if the patient was assessed by a duly licensed physician about time off of work,” Sanner said. “Employers don’t have a right to know the nature of that conversation or the nature of that illness. So it’s as valid as every other work note that I’ve written for the last 30 years.”
No reports of violence.
Wolverine, my uncles worked union jobs in New York – in steel mills and tool and die shops which are no longer there. The jobs provided livable wages and good benefits but no one became rich from them. There has to be a happy medium somewhere though. We can’t continue to export all the decent jobs and expect people to work at wages seen in overseas sweatshops. The civil unrest that would follow such wage scales and unemployment would make this a country difficult in which to live.
What bargaining chips do you see average workers as having if they’re not unionized? Some states entice industry by giving massive tax breaks (for which their citizens pay) to industries willing to relocate there. How long should taxpayers subsidize these moves?
I’m getting tired of the attacks on public employees too. My relatives have been social workers, teachers, teacher’s aides, FBI agents, survey crew members, building inspectors, etc. Everyone of them had good work ethics. When their salaries and benefits are cut so are their trips to restaurants, clothing stores, building supply houses, 401-Ks, etc. Soon they’ll start demanding that the feds quit overpaying private contractors and start saving their tax dollars. The next “victim” group can feel the sting for awhile. During this hating on your neighbor phase, CEO’s, Congress-critters, and Wall Street execs can laugh all the way to the bank.
You determine your market value by putting out your resume and then negotiating your salary and benefits with a new employer. If you cannot find anyone to pay what you are getting now, then you are likely being compensated at or better than your market value. One of the best ways to get a large salary increase is to change jobs, particularly in a hot job market. When the economy is stressed, this strategy obviously does not work as well.
A clue that the public sector workers are over compensated is the fact that they contribute so much less to their pensions and healthcare than employees in the private sector.
I am okay with union busting in the public sector. I am not hostile toward unions, but I do think that they reward seniority rather than merit.
@Kelly3406
If the private sector employees are overpaid rather than overcompensated (benefits), aren’t the compensation packages similar? Private sector employees can take the extra money and buy extra benefits. My sister is in the medical field and most employers have stopped offering retirement benefits other than what she can contribute herself. However, she routinely makes a yearly bonus of four or five figures so she should be contributing more of that toward her retirement fund. Those types of bonuses are hard to come by in the public sector.
As more IT jobs and medical jobs are moved overseas (or immigrants brought here to perform them), what do the present folks in those fields do in the future? What decent paying jobs are going to be left? Maybe the Wisconsin public employees are merely drawing a line in the sand. Perhaps more people should think of doing the same instead of bitching about public employees…because more private sector jobs will be next on the chopping block as many have already been.
Marin,the more people I talk to, the more sympathy I hear going in the direction of Wisconsin–for the public employees. None of those I have discussed this with are pro union folks. In fact, nothing in their background really supports heavy allegiance to unions. Some I talked to almost actively dislike unions and think they are controlled by thugs. They are supporting the Wisconsin public employees. It is sort of amazing actually.
Additionally, people are making the mistake of thinking that all liberals are big union supporters. That isn’t really true.
The next thing will be the drive to help the public employees out financially when they get their wages docked. If the Governor wins, it will be a hollow victory. He will have won the battle but lost the war in the long run.
These underdogs are cute and cuddly and have captured the hearts and minds of a lot of Americans. The governor looks like a bully who is being controlled by a puppet master. Just who might that be?
Cargo,. is that the only thing that bothers you, that they have come inside?
That, and the fact that many are continuing to lie and using “sick days.” Horrible example for the kids. And if that bill allows collective bargaining for salaries, then they still have collective bargaining. Collective bargaining is not a sacred thing. Its all part of the negotiations.
I think that there is actually a good argument against allowing public servants from unionizing as there is an obvious conflict of interest. Quote from FDR in 1937: “Yes, public workers may demand fair treatment, wrote Roosevelt. But, he wrote, “I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place” in the public sector. “A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government.”
Here’s a better argument. I remove the “h” to prevent moderation:
*ttp://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2011/02/the-case-against-public-sector-unionism.html
Fake doctors notes: http://maciverinstitute.com/2011/02/fake-doctors-notes-being-handed-out-at-wisconsin-gov-union-rally/
Unprofessional politically motivated doctors: http://punditpress.blogspot.com/2011/02/physicians-betraying-their-oath-and_19.html
Two doctors’ opinions on those notes at Instapundit. He has a lot. Scroll down.
UPDATE: A physician reader emails:
Medicolegally, passing out sick notes to anyone (much less strikers walking by) implies the creation of a physician-patient relationship. This means, for example, that it could be construed that you are legally responsible for any medical issues related to said relationship. In Florida, and presumably in WI, you must have an official medical record for all patients that you evaluate and care for. Technically, my writing an antibiotic prescription for my child’s ear infection is forbidden if I don’t have a record kept on file documenting an examination and treatment plan.
There is no doubt that ethically, and presumably legally, the MDs in Madison are committing multiple violations of their regulations in order to further a political goal. Certainly this isn’t nearly as egregious as what has transpired in Philly recently, but I worry that it might help further erode the image of my profession. I do feel that I have the right to voice my opinion in the political arena, but feel that it should be done as an ordinary citizen and not as a physician (as when I was in the military and knew that attending political events in uniform was wrong). Otherwise I might give the impression that I speak for all physicians or that my opinions carry more weight than others.
Sadly, casual abuse of power and position in the service of leftist politics seems to be the norm these days. And Dr. Steve White emails:
I noted the Althouse blog reference at Instapundit.
I’m a physician. I take care of patients. Yes indeed, if I were to give a doctor’s note to someone without conducting a proper medical evaluation (however brief), I’d be guilty of improper behavior and ethics and could be brought before the medical licensing board.
However, there’s another name for this: FRAUD. The teachers will use these notes to justify their absences and collect their pay. Both the doctors and the teachers are perpetrating a fraud.
Wonder if the Wisconsin attorney general could be motivated to look into that? At the very least, demand that any teacher turning in a doctor’s note over this work action also turn over the record of the medical ‘evaluation’. That would put a stop to this real quick.
I wonder what the physicians’ malpractice carriers think about this?
@Moon-howler
These underdogs are cute and cuddly and have captured the hearts and minds of a lot of Americans. The governor looks like a bully who is being controlled by a puppet master. Just who might that be?
Governor controlled by a puppet master? What? He’s supposed be a puppet because he’s trying NOT to lay off thousands of state employees? Of course, the President’s own campaign team, Organizing for America won’t be called puppet masters, even though they are attempting to do the same thing in Ohio and Indiana.
These “underdogs” are appearing as such because they have a sympathetic press. They are doing nothing that the Tea Party hasn’t done, except litter horribly, invade the actual state legislature, and act violent (Nine arrested). They get good press even thought their signs have cross hairs on the Governor’s face, call him Hitler and Stalin, and have had nine arrested for violence. They get a whitewash.
Btw, did you notice that the state Senators that ran away from their jobs are not being accused by the press of “shutting down the government” in Wisconsin.
This is my shocked face.
So we bring in governor supporters and union people pour in to Wisconsin. Why is one bad and the other good?
Are you telling me that Faux News is a sympathetic press? You know that at least 50 % of my watching is there just to avoid being accused of what you just said.
I get it. Tea Party Perfect Public Employ Patriots are evil. Works for me. They still are mustering a lot of sympathy.
Faux had better straighten up and show those cross hairs and Hitlers. I havent seen any.
However, I expect there are some rotten apples in the group. All group has them. I expect that someone might have even spit on a politician. That is the nature of crowds.
Truthfully, I will sympathize more with these PEPs (Public Employee Patriots) because I wasn’t pissed off with them before I saw them acting out. There was just something about that summer of town hall meetings and all the rudeness that I found unforgivable.
The more that governor opens his mouth and words come out, the more sympathy the PEPs will get.
You know, Moon, with a huge state debt confronting him in Wisconsin, the governor said something a day or so ago that ought to be on the minds of all involved in this. If he cannot cut back this way, he may well have to start laying off state employees — perhaps even some of those now protesting in Madison. In all this brouhaha many may have missed a recent announcement by Mayor Bloomberg in New York that he will place before the City Council a proposal which includes the laying off of about 4600 NYC teachers. His stated problem? A cut back in state aid to NYC schools by a Democratic-led government in Albany which is itself facing tremendous fiscal problems. And, out in California newly elected Jerry Brown is proposing sweeping budget cuts which have left many municipalities and school districts stunned. This is becoming not a Republican vs Democratic problem, not a conservative vs liberal problem, not a pro-union vs anti-union problem but a very, very common problem. And Uncle Sam, the court of last resort, is as strapped as any of them. We had better clamp down on the tempers and the tendencies toward “me first” and start talking calmly together about how to find a collective way out of the swamp. The bottom of the money pot is not partisan. It is just the bottom of the money pot.
Here ya go. What you might not have seen on TV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71gsnLfsbbM
You sympathize with the unions even though they are doing the things that you object to while you object to the Tea Party, which is actually a group of citizens fighting the biggest bully of them all, the fed’l gov’t.
Here’s more of what you might not have seen. Some links at the site. (I have not visited all of them.)
http://www.punditandpundette.com/2011/02/teachers-not-helping-themselves-with.html
Apparently the doctors were handing out notes for “activititis”. Even Breitbart got one. I wonder what was the diagnosis on him?
http://punditpress.blogspot.com/2011/02/physicians-betraying-their-oath-and_19.html
I don’t understand what makes you support them more and more, from an admittedly neutral stance. Because its a Republican cutting spending?
@Bear
This type of thing is a good reason for unions to be unable to provide monetary support for any politician. Conflict of interest. And if unions can’t do it, I have no problem with businesses being unable to do it. Money should come from those that vote.
@Cargo and Wolverine,
There are other ways. They have said they are willing to negotiate salary. Perhaps there should not have been deals cut for corporate tax cuts.
I have a problem with corporations being able to pour huge amounts of monetary support for politicians. I don’t like it that unions can do it either but I guess it is tit for tat.
People do what they have to do. Let’s touch on ‘bail out.’ Where was the support for industry and ‘bailout’ that was necessary to keep corporations from failing and going under? Now we are talking about protecting the rights of public employees. I am simply not going to buy into making them the fall guy. This is a bully pulpit. Sit down and negotiate with them and arrive at a plan.
I have been listening on the blog and on the internet and TV for over a year at people taking crack shots at public employees and ‘government workers.’ It was in my own self interest so I listened very carefully. I know exactly what this is. There are other ways to cut deficits other than on the backs of public employees.
When 400 people own 50% of the wealth in this nation, I simply don’t want to hear tax cuts for the rich. Let’s start here and then ask why we want to make these folks pay more for benefits and pensions.
The bottom of the money pot most certainly has gotten very partisan. What I am questioning is why the average joe might want to protect the wealthy and the corporations and leave the public employee on the chopping block? And if the private union people are stupid enough to think it isn’t going to come after them…I have a bridge for sale. They are next.
In New York City they have gone the route of raising taxes on the wealthy. The result has been a flight of a great deal of tthose potential revenue sources to other localities. Now Mayor Bloomberg has come back from Albany with an empty money bag and is facing educational and other cuts which, if agreed to by the City Council (maybe and maybe not), just might cause a second coming to Times Square of the scene in Madison. And, if the City Council does not approve, where will the Mayor go then?
@Censored bybvbl
The difference in compensation packages between private and public sector (this is a generalization that has exceptions) is that the private sector now largely pays into the employee’s 401K and then there is no further liability. The responsibility for making the right investment choices are shifted on the employee. Even if the 401K loses money, the company has no further obligation.
Fo these public sector pensions, the state usually guarantees a retirement payment. As more and more people retire, the liability of the state grows exponentially and the state really gets into trouble if the annuity starts to lose money during economic downturns. For the workers, it is a sweet deal because they receive much more than they put into it and the continued liability of the state shields them from the health of the annuity. If the worker lives for a long time after retirement, then the total retirement payments can far exceed the differences in direct pay compared to the private sector when the employee was actually working. I am not an economist, but anyone can do these simple calculations to show the differences.
I guess I have no problems with removing the collective bargaining rights for Wisconsin State employees that are hired after those rights have vanished. Similarly, for newly hired employees, I can see no problems with requiring them (those employed after the new deals is struck) to pay a greater share of retirement plans, health care plans, life insurance, etc. The job candidates can see the compensation deal and make an informed choice about whether to work there or not (and buy a house there, educate their children there and plan their futures). I do have a problem when an employer reduces the compensation package for existing employees (unless the employees agree with the reductions). They went to work there knowing the deal and now the deal is changing without consent. A deal is a deal.
and what is wrong with the Governor coming back to the Union, and saying, we must negotiate this contract or lay off workers. It seems to me, that they do not want to negotiate. I can only see political reasons for exempting the Police and Fire Fighters from having to give up Collective Bargaining.
I have no problem with the employees sharing in pension and healthcare costs, but to me, this seems like using a sledge hammer, where they should have been able to use a conversation.
@Wolverine
That is NY City. Whole different situation.
I am supporting those in Wisconsin, not NY City. I can’t worry about a place where the city sanitation workers make more in a year than I ever did….or close to it.
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The news keeps calling those in Wisconsin ‘the teachers.’ It is not just teachers. It is many different unions representing different professions.
@Kelly3406
Kelly, for starters, not all pension plans are the same. I know that much from talking to others about pensions. I am going to pretend that you said VRS because that is really the only plan I know enough about to address.
Secondly, I know of companies that still have pension plans. For those companies that have 401k plands, I disagree that it is totally up to the employee to make the right investment choices. Many companies only offer x number of investment possibilities. Companies also vary a great deal about matching funds, if they even have them. I know of many companies that might have a 401k and they do not match at all.
Now, let’s get down to that VRS business. One of the places a state can make adjustments is pay out formula. VRS benefit is based on a 36 month highest average amount with a multiplier. Future retirees could always have that multiplier adjusted. That takes a little heat off the state.
In Virginia the state also has a constitutional obligation to pay its contribution. It did not do that. It used the VRS like an ATM. It remains to be seen if they ever will pay back what was borrowed. I question if the loan/deferment of payment was even legal. No one has challenged it in the Virginia Courts, which brings up another issue.
The board of directors is appointed by the governor for a 5 year term. The chairman of VRS is Eric Cantor’s wife. I do not believe that those in charge of the money are totally independent of political interest. The VRS only lost 19% during the crash. It was invested solidly and was in very good shape. In fact, it was a national model for well-run pension funds.
What happened? How did a national model get to where it is now…sort of ok but seriously needs improvement? Those are questions every Virginian should be asking. The rebound has happened. We should be back to normal, one would think.
From Wiki:
The Constitution of Virginia (Article X, Section 11) now requires the General Assembly to maintain “…a retirement system for State employees and employees of participating political subdivisions. The funds of the retirement system shall be deemed separate and independent trust funds, shall be segregated from all other funds of the Commonwealth, and shall be invested and administered solely in the interests of the members and beneficiaries thereof.”
@Pat.Herve
Totally agree. Sledgehammer. The union members have said they will talk about contributions. They will not negotiate on giving up collective bargaining. They are smart to say that. It is the governor who will not negotiate.
I see exempting the firefighters and police groups as poliitcal also. Those various groups supported the governor in his last election. Funniest thing about political payback. This is all so wrong. It is simply union busting…with a sledge hammer.
If this happens to bust up a public employees union – so be it. Public employees shouldn’t be able to unionize, period.
If workers want to unionize against a public company and the public company is ok with it – fine. That’s an agreement two parties make and if the union topples the company – the company fails as does the union. In the case of governments the union can’t fail because the government can’t fail.
Personally, as an employer I’d rather close the factory doors than to be infected by the union parasite.
I think just asking the average joe on the street what they think about public unions and the incidnet in Wisconsin in general and you’ll come away with the opinion that public unions and the union members are over compensated in comparison to the private market. Taxpayers want a change. I say we give it to ’em.
marin, there is something about declaring that public employees cannot join a union that just smacks of something unAmerican to me. Workers have won the right to organize.
What you are forgetting is that those public employee union members are also taxpayers. If what you say is true about how much money they make, then their voices ought to count for more since they obviously are paying more taxes than the average joe. Those union taxpayers and their supporters are also making their voices heard. Or don’t those taxpayers count?
Truthfully, any consumer of good and services is a taxpayer. Some wino who lives on the street buying a pack of cigarette and a cheap bottle of thunderbird is a taxpayer. Sooooo, it looks like we are not so unque, doesn’t it?
@Moon-howler
Do you think the military should be able to form a union? Maybe strike if they don’t like who the Commander in Chief is or strike on pay/deployment issues?
I think it’s a tradeoff when you work for the government. You have a job that’ll almost never go away but the expectation is that you report for duty whenever scheduled and required.
The voices of these people are being heard. Protesters haven’t been removed from the buildings or the streets.
Those (union) taxpayers voices do count. They’re being heard and being allowed to protest like anyone else. If nothing else they don’t have a vote in the legislature because the senators that would presumably support them have tucked tail and run.
@marin, the military is different. You lose all sorts of rights when you join the military that you don’t lose when you go to work for most state, local and federal agencies. I don’t think the FBI or CIA can join a union either. Teachers, librarians, nurses and sanitation workers aren’t high security.
Additionally military can be court-martialed for failure to obey orders. It sounds to me like you want to put those public employees under some sort of military job structure?
I have thought about the sick ins. Sick ins are tricky business. Those can be done in VA I think, because they aren’t a strike. I have never known it to happen. The difference in a sick in vs a strike in that state is not as significant as it would be in VA. I honestly think they are doing what they feel they have to do.
They are living through a union bust where the collective bargaining is going down the tubes. Getting rid of collective bargaining is much akin to neutering a bull. Odd, no one is bitching and whining about any group being absent from the job other than teachers. I will laugh like hell if they fire them all and have to shut the school system down. That is what will happen. They cannot replace that many teachers.
The senators haven’t tuck tailed and run. They have the rest of the senators by the nads. Desperate times call for desperate actions. Pretty hard to conduct business. The governor is a bully with a bad track record as a union buster. Pretty soon you all are going to insult them enough to make me open my check book and start supporting the ‘sick people.’
@MH
I acknowledge that I was generalizing about pension funds, but nothing you wrote invalidates my point in any way. It is true that the Virginia VRS has a fudge factor to reduce payments if necessary, but that still does not change the fact that payouts can eventually exceed new contributions and the system can go bankrupt. It is no coincidence that states with the largest pension programs and smallest population growth (or actual declines) are in danger of going bankrupt.
Here is an interesting write-up about a small town in Alabama: http://formerspook.blogspot.com/2011/02/cautionary-tale.html . By the way, Alabama law requires those pensions to be fully funded also.
So keep talking about taxing the rich. That’s the best way to push business away from our state and reduce the work force needed to support those public pensions.