The Public Employees Unions have conceded the pension and health care contributions to Governor Walker. What remains on the table is collective bargaining. To give this up would be total loss of power.

Link to Wisconsin Education Association. (WEAC)

Nurses, firefighters, EMTs, doctors, are all in here with the teachers, security personnel, bus drivers etc.
Listen to their point of view. It has changed my mind.  I had to step out of my own regional ethnocentrism for a minute since I am not of a union mind set.  If I were, I would definitely want collective bargaining.  Otherwise, I would not have a union.  Collective bargaining is what really defines a union.  Otherwise, you are just another group of employees with a wish list. Collective bargaining gives that wish list some teeth and some nads.

 

 

54 Thoughts to “What More Do They Want? Don’t like unions, try China”

  1. e

    continue to demand collective bargaining and other modes of extortion, and continue to watch the country go down the toilet. all these goodies are unaffordable and unsustainable. whatever happened to the american ethos an honest day’s pay for an honest day’s work? keep trying to screw employers and taxpayers and wake up one day with the country under new management headquartered in beijing

  2. Gov. Walker isn’t demanding all collective bargaining stop. Only on pension and benefits. Collective bargaining is available for all else.

    1. @Cargo, actually what he said was they can keep it on salary. Everything else would go which is a major big deal. Working conditions, hours, pensions and benefits, regulations are all part of collective bargaining.

  3. Cato the Elder

    @Moon-howler

    Do you think monopolies should be busted?

    1. It depends on how the monopoly is defined. I think monopoly busting is often political. ie: microsoft

  4. Juturna

    I think it’s naive to think that monopolies don’t exist. Like filtering water through sand. How else would 10% have 70% of the wealth? Or better, 1% owning 30%. Get real. The Unions will continue. Business will let them. It keeps the middle class happy and amused so they don’t pay attention.

  5. Cato the Elder

    Viva La Revolución!

  6. marinm

    I think the point being lost (or ignored because it’s an inconvinient truth) is that a union acts as a monopoly of labor against the company and that’s somehow “ok” but if companies were to collude that’s “bad”.

    To MH’s point this is what the Gov has said to state employees.

    Collective Bargaining – Given the above changes, the bill also makes various changes to limit collective bargaining to the base pay rate. Total increases cannot exceed the Consumer Price Index (CPI) unless approved by a referendum. Contracts will be limited to one year and wages will be frozen until the new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units will have to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union. Employers will be prohibited from collecting union dues and members of collective bargaining units will not be required to pay dues. These changes take effect upon the expiration of existing contracts. Local police and fire employees and State Patrol Troopers and Inspectors are exempted from these changes.

  7. Steve Thomas

    Collective bargining is simply transitioning the monopoly from the employer to the employees. In the same way we don’t let businesses collude for the purposes of influencing pricing, we shouldn’t allow workers to collude to influence the price of labor. If workers want to get together to fight for safety or the conditions aspect of work, fine. If the mine workers want to strike because the owner of the mine will not invest in safety equipment< I am ok with that. But when it comes to wages and benefits, especially in a low-risk profession, I'm sorry. No way. No how.

    I come from a family of firefighters, state troopers, school teachers, and postal workers. I am about as anti-union as they come. So, why don't we let the military unionize? I mean, who works the longer hours, for the lowest pay, and in the highest-risk environments, than our men and women in uniform. Let's let them set to collective bargining. You know what would happen? The entire command structure would collapse.

    The fact remains, the states and fed are going to have to face the fact that there is no money to pay for all the promised benefits. The unions are going to have to accept this too. Ayn Rand predicted this would happen, over 50 years ago.

  8. Raymond Beverage

    These unions should accept it – the American Federation of Government Employees has collective bargaining, and yet, we don’t see them storming the streets because of the Federal Pay Lock for the next couple of years. Plus, they are facing reductions within their various agencies.

    Also, I notice SEIU on the t-shirts. Ask out to GMU the issues they had with SEIU. SEIU claimed there were unsafe working conditions at GMU, which Sodhexo (who provides various support services to GMU), refuted the claims and refused to follow SEIU demanding employees strike.

    This is fast becoming not about local unions…Service Employees International Union (SEIU) has their fingers into public service (fire & police), health care (nurses) and property services. Let’s strike, get more money and benefits, and fill the national till. SEIU is also one behind many of the nurses strikes – and I am talking about the ones other than when nurses strike because there is unsafe practices in a hospital. California is the best example of unionized nurses – and it is a nightmare in that State.

  9. Juturna told us, if people are treated fairly, unions don’t spring up.

    I repeat. Let the governor fire all the teachers. Then what will he do? Perhaps he should look to Virginia to see how to handle that situation. Different reason but the solution would be the same.

  10. Emma

    Lost in all of this is the fact that the national and state cookie jars are really and truly empty. Union demands come out of borrowed money, at least as far as public employees are concerned, or away from someone else who feels their needs are paramount, too.

  11. Emma

    And yes, let the governor fire all the teachers. Judging from some of the signs all these Badgers are holding up, it looks like the history and English teachers are falling down on the job anyway.

  12. In the case of Virginia, the borrowed money is from the VRS. What’s wrong with this picture?

    I don’t think political signs are an indicator of much of anything. I can’t tell who is who. Reminder, many of the people out there aren’t teachers.

    The PEPs have already said that they will cave in on the $$ items. So it isn’t about money any more. We can take money off the table. This governor just wants to union bust.

  13. Middleton, Wisconsin’s salary schedule doesn’t compare favorably to PWC. They have much better benefits, however.

    Starting pay is 9k less. Top teacher pay not even close.

    But…the benefits are great.

    Middleton is a suburb of Madison.

  14. Elena

    Yes, all those filthy rich teachers,bus drivers, nurses, etc. Who was the ignoramous that created unions anyway! That person must have been so greedy. Oh, wait, maybe unions were borne out of the horrible working conditions of the average joe. Yes, now its coming back, a huge fire that burned women alive because the doors were chained shut. Yes, stupid unions, big business should have all the power and screw the little guy.

    I agree moon, fire all the teachers! In the last decade the profession has been treated with such overwhelming respect and admiration, they should have no problems filling those positions. Geez, who wouldn’t want to be a teacher or some other pubic employee.

    I would not call myself a union fan, never was forced to join one, but there is something rotten happening in Wisconsin. Balancing the budget has nothing to do with unions, the teachers are willing to give in to the cuts, why force this very contenious issue if the teachers et al are willing to concede the monetary aspect.

    http://www.ehow.com/about_6610016_were-first-labor-unions-formed_.html

    Unions have been an important part of the industrial-capitalist system almost since the system’s beginnings. Unions and other forms of labor organizing are largely responsible for labor protections written into nearly every country’s legal code, and they continue to be the main force behind making sure that such laws are respected. The first labor unions formed in response to the dramatic and often violent changes in the lives of workers during the Industrial Revolution.

  15. Elena

    whooops moon, it actually appears as though starting salary is 11 grand less. Yes, work to earn a four year degree as a professional and make a whopping 31 grand. Whoo don’t spend all that on your first mercedes!

  16. You know, let’s face it–the people who are opposed to public employee unions are also opposed to private employee unions. I have heard it on this blog over and over, long before Wisconsin ever happened.

    Fess up.

  17. 31 grand to start? I’d take that. With state benefits? Sure. What? 21-25 years old and starting at 31K? That’s not bad money. Heck, my mom was making about 24K after about 20 years teaching with a Masters. Comes out to be about 39K now.=

    In fact, I want to get a degree and teach. I won’t be part of the union, though. I don’t have a problem with public employees. I have a problem with overbearing unions, union members that act dishonestly, and are willing to bankrupt a system.

  18. marinm

    Y’all forgot to compensate for lower cost of living in WI compared to PWC, VA. Replug in the numbers and check the results.

    Why do we have a Department of Labor and OSHA and all these govt regulators? If we keep unions we can eliminate all those agencies!!!

  19. BoyThreeOne

    From what I can see, the extremist conservative position is well represented here. The people opposed to public unions are the same ones who lean toward Islamaphobia, homophobia, xenophobia, and/or misogyny. Some combination of the above. They hate unions either because they’re wealthy and side with the “MAN” in maximizing profits, or because they aren’t wealthy and are envious of anyone who seems to be getting something they don’t have. The denigration of people not in their camp is central to their ideology. No one is celebrated and nurtured. Not teachers or other public workers, not hard-working migrant people, not LGBT people serving in the armed forces, not good people of different faiths, not women making responsible choices about their own bodies. They view themselves as under attack by these “outsiders.” The possibility (or opportunity) for community-building is negated by the preponderance of phobia that drive them. They’re just too afraid to affirm anyone who isn’t just like them. They can’t hope for “others” to have secure, flourishing existences because it always means (to them) that they’re paying for it in some way, and someones else’s life is never worth supporting for its own sake. The only lives valued seem to be those of the unborn, and at the expense of treating women like baby-making machines that require authoritarian supervision.

  20. marinm

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703610604576158783513445212.html

    Detroit may over take Ohio for the next battleground on this issue.

    Organized labor is fighting back. The Detroit Federation of Teachers called for an emergency lobbying day Tuesday in Lansing, the state capital, to protest bills granting emergency financial managers broad power over cities and school districts in financial crisis. Under those bills, emergency managers could toss out union contracts, dissolve school boards and set wage and benefit levels without collective bargaining. Mr. Bobb is generally supportive of the bills, said Mr. Wasko, the assistant superintendent.

    Huffington is reporting

    State education officials have ordered the emergency financial manager for Detroit Public Schools to immediately implement a plan that balances the district’s books by closing half its schools.

    The Detroit News says the financial restructuring plan will increase high school class sizes to 60 students and consolidate operations.

    And the nature of this issue?

    “But the deficit deepened during his tenure, weighed down by salary, pension and health-care obligations.”

  21. @Cargosquid
    You are aware that there is no union in Virginia schools. You could join the PROFESSIONAL association though.

    I believe the benefits were local benefits. Check out PWC. The start pay is 42k. Many young people with college loans can’t afford to live on their own. They need to get room mates. I don’t think its possible to rent a place for less than a grand a month here though so perhaps that is why.

  22. @marinm
    I didn’t forget. I mentioned different costs of living. I have no idea what theirs is. I would imagine less that then Washington DC area. That doesn’t explain the Richmond suburbs being 9k more however.

  23. Close the schools. Apparently education isn’t valued anyway. People can just send their kids to private school or home school them.

    [sarcasm, key depressed]

    The protesters are getting pizzas sent in from all over the United States and all over the world, even Egypt. How neat.

  24. marinm

    @Moon-howler

    Roger, that’s why I wanted to see your numbers. Bankrate.com showed that cost of living is 33% lower.

    CNN shows

    Groceries will cost: 7%less
    Housing will cost: 60%less
    Utilities will cost: 1%more
    Transportation will cost: 11%less
    Healthcare will cost: 2%less

    and about 20~% less.

    But, these numbers are skewed because they want to take FFX into account over PWC – so was hoping you had better numbers to work with. Either way a casual looksie says you get more for your money in WI than NVA.

    Here’s a Huffington link but MH I’ll pre-warn you. It’ll probably further depress you.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/20/los-angeles-schools-convert-to-charters_n_825775.html?ir=Education

    I think it’s fair to say that we’re doing a correction on Education and how we pay for it.

  25. @Moon-howler
    Actually, I do now. I thought that there was a union, just not allowed to strike.

    NOVA’s cost of living is ridiculous. Yet another benefit of living so close to DC. I hate that we are dependent upon DC for jobs up there. I would dearly love to decentralize DC. Congress can telecommute. The agencies can be moved to different states. Energy to Texas or Alaska. Interior to Nebraska. Agriculture to Iowa. Defense stays there. Education…just gone. Labor…gone. Commerce…eh.. Chicago. You get the idea. Force those lobbyists to stay at Super 8’s. Move the UN to…….Mississippi. NO! Leesville, Louisiana, outside of Fort Polk….yeah….that’s the ticket.

    1. To me and many others, a union involves collective bargaining, otherwise it is just a bunch of people with look-alike T-shirts. To me, NEA and AFT are both professional associations as long as they are in Virginia. Not sure about AFT but the local and state affiliates would call themselves a professional association.

      Remember the neutered bull reference I made earlier? Moooooooo There is no collective bargaining and there is no binding arbitration. All they can do is a meet and confer. This is where it pays to be real nice.

    2. Cargo, actually many people have the idea to decentralize Washington. It would help the traffic situation also.

  26. Yes, I know that the UN is in New York. Got carried away with my dreaming…….if only….. 😈

    1. @Cargo

      I fixed it for you. You need to leave a space between the ellipses and the colon. …..:twisted: will not print it as a devil.

  27. How do you make that devil again…..something twisted something…..

  28. Emma

    It’s not just public school teachers who are demonstrating in WI–it’s graduate students, many of whom are getting full tuition waivers along with their stipend as teaching assistants. It’s tenured professors. It’s hoards of people bused in by Organizing for America.

    The demonstrators have something that well over 10 percent of the national population lack: Jobs.

    1. @Why should they wear the horsehair shirt because others are unemployeed? Once again, teachers are being asked to be martyrs?
      There are also firefighters, EMTs, nurses, doctors and scores of other people out there. There are also Tea Party People out there too who have been bussed in. Do we allow that out ban Organizing for America?

  29. Steve Thomas

    Moon-howler :You know, let’s face it–the people who are opposed to public employee unions are also opposed to private employee unions. I have heard it on this blog over and over, long before Wisconsin ever happened.
    Fess up.

    I fess. I don’t like unions. The only exception is in the case of unsafe working conditions, such as mine workers. Elena brought up some of the history of the formation of unions. I will admit that back in the early part of the industrial revolution, unions were necessary to protect workers. However, there was little to no government oversite. There wasn’t a national minimum wage. There wasn’t an OSHA, etc., etc. Unions, both public and private are really about monopolizing the labor pool, and for the exercise of political power, by the leaders of the union. As we have seen time and time again, the unions really don’t care if they kill the golden goose. Look at what they did to the steel industry in the 70’s. Look what they’ve done to the American auto industry.

    It’s a little known fact that much of the cost overruns of the Boston Big Dig project, were union related. Because MA is a union state, they have prevailing wage laws. Even in bad weather, when no actual work was done, the union had garantees that if a dozer or crane operator was sitting in his running equipment, reading the Boston Globe an drinking Dunkin’ Donuts coffee, he got paid for the day. No dirt was moved. No girders lifted. No actual work done. Yet they got paid. Guess who had to pick up the tab for the excess? The tax-payers. Did the union care? Nope. All they care about is squeezing what they can out of the system.

    1. @Steve, get out of my husband’s brain! You sound like my husband. However, he is supporting these Wisconsin people because of the bullying he sees going on. Other than that, you sound exactly like him on the subject of unions.

      I would probably be a union person if we could somehow have a right to work state combined with collective bargaining. Its the closed shop I don’t like. I wouldn’t go so far as to say its a monopoly but it just isn’t pro-choice.

      If open/closed shop went to referendum today, here in Virginia, I would vote for open shop. However, Wisconsin isn’t. I don’t like a union buster.

  30. Kelly3406

    @Cargosquid
    It’s interesting that you talk about teaching Cargo. Sitting around in retirement would not really suit me, so my plan (20 years in the future) is to teach high school as my retirement job. The best teacher I ever had was in high school chemistry –the gentleman taught only after a long, distinguished, and successful professional career elsewhere. He was truly gifted and talented.

    I have noticed that some of the really talented teachers in PWC have taken a similar track. There are some really good teachers out there, but there are even more bad ones (in my opinion). My problem with the unions is that they encourage mediocrity at the expense of merit. Pay is based more on seniority than performance.

    You may argue that this characteristic is true of all American workers. But I do not have to use mediocre products sold by private industry — I am free to shop around or not buy at all. Not true for county and state services. If a student is assigned a teacher that stinks, there is not much that (s)he can do about it.

    As a result, I support removing collective bargaining “rights” from public service workers. Just as the military is not allowed to form labor unions, I do not think any group of employees working for the government should be able to form labor unions.

    1. @Kelly, I can tell you that ‘the union’ aka the professional association has absolutely NOTHING to do with what you just described. There are no collective bargaining rights in Virginia for public school employees.

      There is no right teacher for every kid. My daughter’s very favorite teacher, Mrs. C here in PWC was thought to be Satan Incarnate by my son who also had her. For all my daughter loved her, he HATED this woman. Did she stink? I guess she did for him but she was fabulous for my daughter. I would guess the problem lay with my son.

  31. Steve Thomas

    @BoyThreeOne

    Wow…that was one long, ranting, ad hominem attack, and a well crafted canard.

  32. Steve Thomas

    @Moon-howler
    “To me, NEA and AFT are both professional associations as long as they are in Virginia.”

    I have no problem with these organizations, as they function in VA. They lobby the GA for or against legislation for the benefit of there members. Much the same as the American Legion, VFW, or VCDL. Nothing wrong with this in my book.

    1. PWEA also sits down with meet and confer sessions with PWC school board for salary, benefits, working conditions. They act as the go between over county issues. They make sure that people get due process. They do not defend behavior that violates rules. They just ensure due process.

  33. BoyThreeOne :
    From what I can see, the extremist conservative position is well represented here. The people opposed to public unions are the same ones who lean toward Islamaphobia, homophobia, xenophobia, and/or misogyny. Some combination of the above. They hate unions either because they’re wealthy and side with the “MAN” in maximizing profits, or because they aren’t wealthy and are envious of anyone who seems to be getting something they don’t have. The denigration of people not in their camp is central to their ideology. No one is celebrated and nurtured. Not teachers or other public workers, not hard-working migrant people, not LGBT people serving in the armed forces, not good people of different faiths, not women making responsible choices about their own bodies. They view themselves as under attack by these “outsiders.” The possibility (or opportunity) for community-building is negated by the preponderance of phobia that drive them. They’re just too afraid to affirm anyone who isn’t just like them. They can’t hope for “others” to have secure, flourishing existences because it always means (to them) that they’re paying for it in some way, and someones else’s life is never worth supporting for its own sake. The only lives valued seem to be those of the unborn, and at the expense of treating women like baby-making machines that require authoritarian supervision.

    Lets discuss this rant and its insulting tone that is not the usual thing here at Moonhowlings.

    extremist conservative: In what connotation do you use extremist? Since you appear to be left of Obama, where would YOU put the center and what is considered extreme?

    Then you have the insults – Islamaphobia, homophobia, xenophobia, and/or misogyny. For one thing, a phobia is a fear of something. Most conservatives are not “afraid” of these things.
    Second, in regards to Islam… what part of fighting a 7th century, fanatical, political system that rapes, kills, and persecutes in the name of religion is NOT part of a liberal ethos? Some of the people here, myself included, have happily worked with MUslims and have Muslim friends.
    Third, I don’t know of a single person afraid of a homosexual. Now, there are millions of people across the world, of all races and creeds that disapprove of the act of homosexuality. However, I don’t remember a huge outcry against them here and have even seen support for them.
    Fourth, Where do you get xenophobia when the conservatives here all support immigration as long as its legal? Again, you are lying and insulting. Some of the conservatives here may even have, gasp….immigrant parents or family members…..
    Fifth, Misogyny. This one is just a ridiculous reach. Some of the conservatives ARE women. And, I think, all of them support women in power. And I think that we’re ALL married. And if you didn’t notice….the owners of this blog we ENJOY are……women……yeah….we hate women so we want them elected and hang out on a blog owned by women. We just happen to have differences of opinion on the abortion controversy.

    Then you have a disconnect in logic: We hate unions because we’re wealthy OR we’re poor and envious. Wouldn’t we “poor and envious” people want to be in a union so we could “GET SOME” from the rich people?

    The denigration of people not in their camp is central to their ideology. No one is celebrated and nurtured. Not teachers or other public workers, not hard-working migrant people, not LGBT people serving in the armed forces, not good people of different faiths, not women making responsible choices about their own bodies.

    Central? Really? Less taxes and constitutional government. Yep. That sure denigrates people. We don’t celebrate anybody apparently. Teachers and other public workers? Great and needed. Unions? Not so much. Public workers whining about getting only a small increase in salary when 10% of the population that supports them are out of jobs? Not so much. Hard working migrants? Illegal? No. Legal? Yes. LGBT serving in the armed forces…you apparently missed that discussion where many of us supported their service but objected on other grounds or outright supported it. Get educated before you write.
    Good people of different faiths? What the heck are you talking about? Good people are good people. More trolling. And finally! One that you approach some semblance of logic. No, some of the conservatives are against legalized abortion. We’ve already had that discussion.

    hey view themselves as under attack by these “outsiders.” That sounds just like…..anybody that doesn’t like the way the politics are going. Except conservatives are worried about “outsiders.” We are worried about good ol’ citizens that want to do the opposite of what we believe to be a good path for the US. And vice versa for the left.

    The possibility (or opportunity) for community-building is negated by the preponderance of phobia that drive them. They’re just too afraid to affirm anyone who isn’t just like them. They can’t hope for “others” to have secure, flourishing existences because it always means (to them) that they’re paying for it in some way, and someones else’s life is never worth supporting for its own sake. The only lives valued seem to be those of the unborn, and at the expense of treating women like baby-making machines that require authoritarian supervision.

    And this part is just idiotic, insulting and puerile. You come to a good blog like Moonhowlings and troll. You throw out blanket statements that are extreme, insulting, etc and hope for a reaction. No argument on facts. No discussion. Just crap. So, in this description we see you intolerance for over half of the citizenry of the US. You object to a conservatives objection for paying to support someone else while they are struggling to make ends meet. Yet you denigrate that very struggle. You are too dense to open you mind to what conservatives are actually saying and just mouth ad hominems learned from far left screeds. You are a troll without any contribution to the discussion here. Get out of your basement and go live in the real world.

  34. Except conservatives are worried about “outsiders.” EDIT then POST

    Should read: are not worried.

  35. marinm

    Cargo, you are more patient than I. I saw that post and ignored it. That wasn’t civil debate to me. I tip my hat to you sir.

  36. BoyThreeOne

    CargoSquid
    Your comment confirms mine. If Moonhowler or Elena want to delete my comment, so be it. Your opinion means next to nothing to me.

  37. BoyThreeOn has not called anyone out by name that I can tell. While I don’t make a big deal out of it most days, I feel insulted here most days. Yes, he ranted. Maybe that is how he felt and how he sees things. Maybe we all need to see how someone else feels.

    As long as he didn’t personally attack another individual, I will support his right to express himself over feeling ‘conservatived.’

    Cargo and Marin responded. Cargo, you did a good job of representing your point of view until you got personal. I don’t see BTO as a troll. He makes good points here. They don’t agree with yours.

    Sometime the air just needs to be cleared. I consider the air cleared now and everyone can start over. Thanks Guys. I try not to get in the way of the testosterone flair ups but I think this one needed some directive. Everyone had points to make.

    And while we are at it, you all have no idea what all I take down. 😈

  38. Actually, I wasn’t suggesting that anyone take down BoyThree’s post. I think its a fine example of bias and intolerance as does his attitude.

    I hope he writes more. I recommend many conservatives to come here. Now they get to see the difference between people like Moon and Elena and their presentation of ideas and what Boy’s insults look like.

    And, of course, his logic is STILL lacking, in that my comment which pointed out where he was wrong…confirms his.

    OK, then.

    1. Everyone loses their temper every once in a while. I sure do….about once a week. This past week has been very difficult for non conservatives. I know it is a matter of time before things swing back to the center but it is still hard to take, especially when one is conflicted over some of the events.

  39. marinm

    I want BoyThreeOn to stay. 👿

  40. marinm

    Hrm. MH, how do I make an evilish/impish-type grin. Like, as if I’m plotting………… Can you change the smiley above to make it more ‘impish’?

  41. marin, you are not to be plotting!!!!!

    I only know two words. twisted and evil.

  42. @Moon-howler
    AAaawwww….that’s such a nice thing to say about Marin, Moon…..

    You never say such nice things about me…… 8(

  43. @Cargo, so do you want to be twisted or evil?

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