Open Thread……………………………………….Tuesday, February 22

Morris Davis

February 23, 2011 at 11:21 am

Bill in Tennessee would make following Shariah a felony with up to 15 years in prison. Note that unlike bills in other states that would ban courts from applying Shariah, this one makes individuals practicing Shariah (like washing their feet and kneeling towards Mecca to pray) felons.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-23-tennessee-law-shariah_N.htm

Moon-howler

February 23, 2011 at 11:43 am

@Moe, How long would that take to get before the Supreme Court? Lightning speed? Why do legislators insist on being jerks?

marinm

February 23, 2011 at 12:23 pm

MH, the point is that it was a prank call with a reporter posing as Mr. Koch……..

Moon-howler

February 23, 2011 at 1:43 pm

Thanks Marin, I am caught up now. If I read behind the scenes, which I was doing, I am reading in backwards order.

Cargosquid

February 23, 2011 at 12:41 pm

@Moon-howler
Exactly. Elected by us. Paid by us. We ARE their employers. Just indirectly. We are the owners. The representatives are the CEO.

Not only do they bargain with our representatives, in some places, they have to power to choose the politicians that will give them the best deal using taxpayer money. The politicians have no incentive to not give them more money, because a)they don’t need to make a profit b)they want to get re-elected c)if they don’t get re-elected, they don’t have to make the hard decisions when the bills come due.

“Even the union members pay taxes too.” Yes they do. With money paid to them from our taxes. So, we are indirectly paying THEIR taxes too.

Moon-howler

February 23, 2011 at 1:42 pm

@Cargo, no, you are not their employer. You don’t own anyone! Probably the representatives are closer to the board of directors.

No, you aren’t paying the taxes of the union members. It stops being your money when it leaves your work account. If you think it is yours, try taking it back.

Actually, this ownership and ‘I am the boss’ sentiment I am hearing on here is just getting offensive. I am very tired of listening to people trying to reduce public employees to dirt. Regardless of intent….that is how *I* am taking it.

Cargosquid

February 23, 2011 at 12:42 pm

@Morris Davis
A bill like THAT is just idiotic.

I agree.

Yet again, another politician with the “Must do SOMETHING” disease…

Cargosquid

February 23, 2011 at 12:44 pm

The Possibility of George Washington’s Church being turned into a mosque…….

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-episcopal-church-wages-jihad-against-eight-virginia-churches/

Need to Know

February 23, 2011 at 1:21 pm

@Moon-howler

Most likely, the economic and market ramifications of Libya blow over soon. Libya supplies less than 2% of global oil usage and the Saudis will make up any difference if Libya appears to be going off-line for an extended period of time.

Moreover, Saudi Arabia is not going to fall. The social/political situation there is much less severe than in the more volatile countries, and the US and other major oil consumers would intervene to maintain stability of that source of fuel if problems arise. President Obama has kept mostly hands-off in these revolutions so far (essentially the right move) and won’t like intervening in Saudi Arabia, but will have no choice in the event of unrest there to avoid economic collapse and the complete demise of the Democratic Party in 2012.

I see this as a buying opportunity for those with nerves of steel.

Cindy B

February 23, 2011 at 1:34 pm

Yeah! City has it’s new media center up and running:
http://www.manassascity.org/MediaCenter

Watch the “Gang Proliferation: A Community Responds” video with Chief Deane that was shown at the Gang Prevention Summit in January.

Feb 28 City Council meeting will stream live.

marinm

February 23, 2011 at 1:51 pm

MH, posted on the other thread as it’s more appropriate to the union discussion but I see that has spilled over to the Open thread..

Providence has given notice to ALL it’s teachers that they face layoffs.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/providence_teacher_layoffs_02-23-11_MCML6R3_v17.1a1cc6d.html

In an e-mail sent to all teachers and School Department staff, Brady said, “We are forced to take this precautionary action by the March 1 deadline given the dire budget outline for the 2011-2012 school year in which we are projecting a near $40 million deficit for the district,” Brady wrote. “Since the full extent of the potential cuts to the school budget have yet to be determined, issuing a dismissal letter to all teachers was necessary to give the mayor, the School Board and the district maximum flexibility to consider every cost savings option, including reductions in staff.” State law requires that teachers be notified about potential changes to their employment status by March 1.

Starryflights

February 23, 2011 at 2:36 pm

Wait until police and firefighters start getting layoff notices. That will be interesting.

Starryflights

February 23, 2011 at 2:40 pm

Incidentally, the federal government is about a week away from a shutdown.

hello

February 23, 2011 at 2:56 pm

ATTENTION ALL WOMEN FOR WOMEN RIGHTS TO DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH THEIR BODY!!!!

The most powerful man in the United States Senate, Harry Ried, wants to TELL you what you can and can’t do with your own BODY!!!!

Who does he think he EFFING IS!!!!

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/50020.html

hello

February 23, 2011 at 2:59 pm

May I quote from Democrat Rep. Mike Capuano (D-Ma.) in response to Harry Reid trying to FORCE women to do what HE wants with their own bodies… “Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary”.

marinm

February 23, 2011 at 3:01 pm

Starry, that’s already been happening..

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=133951

Ashtabula County Common Pleas Judge Alfred Mackey was asked what residents should do to protect themselves and their families with the severe cutback in law enforcement.

“Arm themselves,” the judge said. “Be very careful, be vigilant, get in touch with your neighbors, because we’re going to have to look after each other.”

Camden, NJ.. Detroit, MI.. Cops and firefighters are not safe. We don’t have the money.

I can post more examples but it actually gets a little depressing reading through it all.

hello

February 23, 2011 at 3:16 pm

With Oil now at about $100 a barrel how many Dems do you think will want an investigation into it and how the Obama Admin played a part in the Egypt protests that spread across the region thus destabilizing the price of oil? I remember a young senator Obama saying something about how he wants “energy prices to necessarily SKYROCKET”. Congratulations Mr. President, you couldn’t get Cap & Tax to pass but eventually you got your wish.

I just feel sorry for all of those families that will need food stamps (forget that we already have a record number of people on food stamps right now) since you and the Mrs seem to have raided that for you own little pet projects… to the tune of, that we know of, $12,000,000,000.00 (that’s BILLIONS with a B).

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/pelosi-house-democrats-to-ftc-investigate-record-gas-prices-57523752.html

Cargosquid

February 23, 2011 at 3:40 pm

@Moon-howler
I have not reduced anyone to dirt. Nor have I seen any of that on this blog. What I have seen are objections to union members complaining about a lack of pay raises or having to increase their share of health care costs while those paying taxes to pay for those benefits and salaries have no jobs.

You don’t own anyone! Probably the representatives are closer to the board of directors.

No, you aren’t paying the taxes of the union members. It stops being your money when it leaves your work account. If you think it is yours, try taking it back.

I was making an analogy. The taxpayers and the citizens ARE the owners of a polity. The representatives can be considered to be a board of directors or CEO’s etc. And if you notice, I said we paid their taxes indirectly as the source of THEIR money is US.

I’m not denigrating anyone. Where are you getting this idea that we are “reducing public employees to dirt?” Because we don’t like the overarching power of the major unions and the inherent conflict of interest that a unionized public sector has with the public?

Would you feel the same way if I said that private companies need to renegotiate with private unions and reduce their power in order to stay in business?

The taxpayers of a polity HAD BETTER be the boss. If they are not, then who is? They may not make the rules for day to day, but, like shareholders, they vote to decide who runs those day to day operations.

Cargosquid

February 23, 2011 at 3:43 pm

You know…..there is SOME money going into all of these budgets…..where is it going? Somebody is getting paid and somebody’s project is not being cut.

Or is everybody getting cut and there’s STILL not enough money?

Morris Davis

February 23, 2011 at 3:56 pm

Cargo – You said: “The taxpayers of a polity HAD BETTER be the boss. If they are not, then who is?”

The Koch brothers and a few elites like them. You (or any other regular taxpayer) try calling the governor of your own state, much less the governor of a state where you don’t live, and see how long it takes him or her to come to the phone. Or invite a Supreme Court justice or two over for a barbecue to speak with you and some of your closest friends and see how many show up.

marinm

February 23, 2011 at 4:52 pm

…and biggest retard of the day award goes to

http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/23/6117387-indiana-official-loses-job-after-live-ammo-tweet

Following a tweet suggesting riot police “use live ammunition” against demonstrators outside Wisconsin’s capitol building on Saturday night, Jeff Cox is no longer employed as a deputy attorney general with Indiana Attorney General’s Office.

Even as a joke that was WAY not funny.

Emma

February 23, 2011 at 6:49 pm

@hello “Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary”.

I would be really frightened that a susceptible person might hear talk like that and decide to take action. Aren’t you?

Cato the Elder

February 23, 2011 at 7:11 pm

Heh. I love a good prank call.

Emma

February 23, 2011 at 7:40 pm

Barnyard racism!

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/local/politics/2011/02/gop_official_names_black_cow_o.html

Moon-howler

February 23, 2011 at 8:15 pm

@marinm

That isn’t that unusual. In many states, the final budget and the notification time are not in sync. Life goes on. Most do not get laid off.

Moon-howler

February 23, 2011 at 8:24 pm

Perhaps many of you don’t realize that to those of us who have been public servants at one time or another in our lives, or who have close relatives who are public employess, past, present, or future, much of what some people are saying on this blog is degrading.

You are the children of a lesser god and if you were a real person you would work for private industry. Its really in the eyes and ears of the receiver.

I think public employees have just as much right to unionize as the next person.

Cargosquid

February 23, 2011 at 8:56 pm

@Morris Davis
See? I was right. The taxpayers HAD BETTER be the boss. Otherwise, the Koch Bros., GE, Soros, Goldman Sachs, Unions, the Chinese…..they all become the boss.

Cargosquid

February 23, 2011 at 9:18 pm

@Moon-howler
And there are those of us that are thinking of becoming public servants or who have had parents that are teachers that are saying this and that we’re not degrading the public servants, we just not agreeing that what the unions have been getting away with is right and that public sector unions seem to have a conflict of interest. Even FDR thought that.

If you feel different, fine. That’s what makes for good discussion here. But we are not denigrating the actual service.

Emma

February 23, 2011 at 10:01 pm

I’ve got a family member demonstrating in Madison, and I still think they are acting like spoiled brats. A good friend of mine suffered a 30 percent pay cut three years ago just to keep his job. Others have spent the last three years trying to get a job, period. It simply doesn’t sit well to demand salary and benefits from taxpayers who may not even be working themselves. Let the unions lower the annual dues if they want to help their workers. Oh, wait, then they would have less to donate to their favorite political causes.

The law of unintended consequences means they will probably get their demands met, and then face massive layoffs.

Moon-howler

February 23, 2011 at 10:34 pm

What does it take to make you hear that they have given up the $$ part. All they want to retain is the collective bargaining. That’s all.

I also say, I don’t think some of you know how public employees receive the message you are sending. You can’t determine how it is sounding. Emma spelling it out. Public employees are spoiled brats. They have no right to ask for anything, including a decent salary, benefits etc because they work for YOU.

That is how it is received. Walk in someone else’s shoes. Hear how the message sounds.

Moon-howler

February 23, 2011 at 10:38 pm

@Cargo, and who agrees with FDR on everything?

It isn’t conflict of interest. There is no reason public employees cannot expect a decent wage and benefits. They ought to be able to sit down to the table and barter. Or, they can just take the left overs.

marinm

February 23, 2011 at 10:51 pm

MH, the up front money concession isn’t enough. The real crux is collective bargaining. The Gov wants to be able to change benefits without union permission. That’s where the real savings will be.

Sure 300m from the union concessions is nice but its only a part of the 3.6b deficit.

Now is the time to fix the systemic problem. Take away collective bargaining and restructure as much as possible. Spending money wiser is key here.

The public unions only offer two choices. Less services or higher taxes. It’s never more with less.

I hear what your saying about perception but I can’t control how someone feels because of something I’ve said or typed. I would imagine that sometimes the ‘truth hurts’.

Moon-howler

February 23, 2011 at 11:30 pm

@marin, so you won’t be hurt if all the public employees tell you to go F- yourself? That is what they should do.

You don’t make up deficits on someone else’s back.

I am about at that point too. I am so very tired of this “I got mines’ point of view. I got mines so everyone else can go screw themselves.

I got mines or …I don’t have mines and I resent like hell that you have yours.

Winos are tax payers and it isn’t your money once it is taken off your paycheck. Its the cost of living in a civilized society that has cops, firefighters, county attorneys, engineers, teachers, doctors, nurses, medical personnel, emts, etc. Where does the list end?

Keep it up and there will soon come a day when there are just not people going into these fields in the numbers there were. Remember the less pay for better benefits? If there aren’t better benefits, people will just go elsewhere for better pay. The area that will be hit hardest are the areas that were traditionally known as the petticoat regime. All the old battle axes are retiring and there will no new ones to take their place. Bwaaahahahahahahaha

Big Dog

February 23, 2011 at 10:54 pm

“I thank God, we have not free schools nor printing, and I hope we shall
not have. For learning has brought disobedience and heresy and sects
into the world; and printing has divulged them and libels against the
government, God keep us from both.”

Gov. William Berkley of Virginia, 1671

Wolverine

February 23, 2011 at 11:13 pm

Let me see now. You get a call from somebody who says he is industrialist David Koch. So, you take the call. You have a conversation with the guy. But it isn’t really David Koch. That tells me that you must not know David Koch very well if you cannot even recognize him on the phone or from the tenor of your conversation. In other words, you got duped by a pranker. And you are, according to some, in the pocket of the real David Koch? Go figure. You cannot even tell the difference between the real David Koch and a pranker and you are supposed to be a puppet of the Kochs? Strange.

Cargosquid

February 23, 2011 at 11:31 pm

I wonder what the law is in Wisconsin about recording a phone call without both people having knowledge of it. I know its illegal in Maryland. I don’t know about Virginia.

marinm

February 23, 2011 at 11:52 pm

@Moon-howler

“I don’t have mines and I resent like hell that you have yours.” and “You don’t make up deficits on someone else’s back.”

Isn’t that sorta like going after the top 1% and trying to punish them for being successful?

@marin, so you won’t be hurt if all the public employees tell you to go F- yourself? That is what they should do.

Getting a little personal here, eh? To your point if they want to, in the course of debate, to do that they can but I doubt they’ll endear much sympathy with the public by telling a member of the public to go F* himself. Afterall the WI voters had the choice to stay with the status quo but voted in change. I think people recognize that while they ‘support’ teachers, cops, firefighters, nurses, etc.. They just can’t pay them the wealthy package of perks they’ve been giving out. Maybe the union was just too successful.

Bless all these protesters for going out and making their voice heard. Some of these people probably laughed at the TEA party for doing the same thing – I doubt they’re laughing now.

But in the end this all boils down to a vote. I don’t think the unions have convinced the public or the legislators to side with them. Personally, I think that if they so quickly made the 8% concession that they ought to be squeezed further.

Go for unconditional surrender.

“If there aren’t better benefits, people will just go elsewhere for better pay.”

So, you admit that the free market works??????????????/ 🙂 🙂 🙂

BoyThreeOne

February 24, 2011 at 1:41 am

@Moon-howler
I agree with everything you’re saying.
I don’t agree with everything FDR said. Eleanor is the one I love.

Starryflights

February 24, 2011 at 3:55 am

Well, Marin, next time your house is on fire, or the next time you get in a car wreck, or the next time you need a cop, or a member of your family needs immediate medical attention, or your street simply needs a snow plow – just remember you’re living within your means.

Public employees are under attack at all levels – federal, state and local. It’s at the state and local levels where most of us are going to feel their abscence.

Mom

February 24, 2011 at 5:38 am

@Cargo

Virginia is a one party state, feel free to tape as much as you want.

Emma

February 24, 2011 at 6:37 am

So are we to be at the mercy of these public employees, that they will not perform their duties unless we meet their every demand?

I don’t know anyone who doesn’t value police, teachers, nurses, etc. But if meeting every demand they have is what it will take to simply get them to do their job, then perhaps they chose the wrong profession. And I am writing this as a nurse. As a public service employee. It seems to me that the WI workers are the ones with the “I want mine, so screw you and your deficit” attitude.

Moon-howler

February 24, 2011 at 8:18 am

Emma, I know you know how to read and are an intelligent woman. Why will you not accept that concessions have been made?

They will pay the part of their pension and their health care that was put on the table by the governor. What more do you want them to cave on?

Do you think that come of the deficit should be made up elsewhere? All they want to do is keep their collective bargaining rights. Frankly, I don’t blame them. they already have a closed shop.

Morris Davis

February 24, 2011 at 7:50 am

marinm – I agree with your point that if we go to war we go big, but I disagree with the kill’em all part. That was the way wars were fought until the mid-1600s when people realized that wars end and some measure of humanity during battle facilitates the transition to peace.

I also disagree that the road to prosperity requires crushing fat cat public employees. The average WI teacher makes low to mid $50k + $20-30k in benefits. Your side was willing to bring government to a standstill over tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires. We have the biggest income inequality gap in the developed world. Real income for the bottom half has been flat for 20-30 years while the richest have seen their wealth increase sharply. Even Reagan and Bush era economists say that trend is not sustainable. We need for government to work better and more efficiently, but taking a baseball bat to rank and file employees is not the answer.

Cato the Elder

February 24, 2011 at 8:29 am

http://www.youtube.com/user/fridaynightcranks?blend=2&ob=4

Cargosquid

February 24, 2011 at 8:31 am

Here’s something to wake everybody up that I read on another blog…..

Supreme Court Justice Ken Cuccinelli

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! 😈

NOW I’m off for coffee…..

Moon-howler

February 24, 2011 at 8:37 am

@Cargo, I am waiting to see President Obama nominate Cuccinelli.

By the time the war of terror is over with that asshat, Republicans will be lucky to be elected dog catcher. 3 more years. Enjoy the run. The extreme religious right social conservatism is playing out just like many of us warned.

It will be a short run. The good thing is, we can always count on extremists to overdo things so that everyone notices. They make it easy next election.

George S. Harris

February 24, 2011 at 9:00 am

“From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli…”

This article should scare the crap out of you with the possibilities…

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/24/world/24diplomacy.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha22

Cato the Elder

February 24, 2011 at 9:10 am

@George S. Harris

I’ll see your scary article and raise you this: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704520504576162820431712238.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

George S. Harris

February 24, 2011 at 10:19 am

@Cato the Elder
“Weighing all our options” is a joke–we could not send the Presley O”Bannon and his merry band of Marines to “..the shore of Tripoli” and even if we could, fighting a chemical war in MOP gear in the summer would be very deadly. I fear we may just to stand on the sidelines and watch.

George S. Harris

February 24, 2011 at 10:39 am

@Cargosquid
He or she who holds the purse strings is the boss. Moe is right–you live in Richmond I believe–just go over and knock on the governor’s door and invite him over for some ribs and brew. Or call Cocooneli and see if would like to drive over of a samitch and a brewski. The only way the taxpayers could possibly be in charge would be to not pay their taxes–and try that.

George S. Harris

February 24, 2011 at 10:45 am

@Morris Davis
Moe–The Imam there is saying:

Imam Mohamed Ahmed of the Islamic Center of Nashville on 12th Avenue South said Islam teaches its followers to obey the law of the land. Shariah law, he said, teaches moral values.

Is he saying Shari’a is the Islamic version of the Ten Commandments? If so, then Tennessee and others have it all wrong. Is anyone on this blog enough of a Shari’a scholar to advise those of us who are not as to what the “real” truth is?

George S. Harris

February 24, 2011 at 10:56 am

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/S/ShariaLaw.aspx

An in teres ting commentary on Shari’a. Supposedly based on the Qur’an, Shari’a also has been modified over the centuries by various fatwas. I am not certain that non-Muslims will ever fully understand it, but to accept it in place o fthe Constitution would be a mistake beyond belief–no pun intended.

George S. Harris

February 24, 2011 at 11:09 am

Members of Congress not worried about a government shutdown—

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/50050.html

Big Dog

February 24, 2011 at 11:54 am

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/23/reid.nevada.brothels/index.html

“Reid will have to pry the keys to the cathouse out of my cold dead hands.”
Dennis Hof
Moonlite Bunny Ranch

All the fun isn’t in Washington.