Listening to Governor Christie of New Jersey, I am speechless. He is saying that the health care package of public employees in NJ is $24,000. WHAT???!!!!! What does that do for someone? In PWC, which is probably higher than much of the rest of the state, the health care package is around $6,000 a year per person. Now why is New Jersey’s health care package 4 times higher? Unfortunately, when people hear about unions breaking the middle class, etc, they assume that is what is happening to them here in Virginia. No it isn’t. Virginia public employees cannot do collective bargaining.
What is the big issue with collective bargaining? If both sides sit down at the table, isn’t it a situation of you give/I give? You cave here/I cave there? That’s how it is supposed to work. However, in the past, many jurisdictions have just acquiesced to the unions. So, who owns that problem? Is it because the unions gave to their campaign funds? Has there been complicity and wink wink nudge nudge from legislators? Have union demands been ok’ed by negotiators at the direction of those who are elected in exchange for big union bucks next election campaign?
Let’s think about redefining the role of collective bargaining so that it really is exactly that…bargaining. Many people are very uncomfortable with union busting. Many people are uncomfortable with union excesses. Perhaps this is the time to seek balance rather than the time to kill off unions. The American worker will not go quietly to the union grave. Too many people gave up their lives for the right to form unions.
Has there been complicity and wink wink nudge nudge from legislators? Have union demands been ok’ed by negotiators at the direction of those who are elected in exchange for big union bucks next election campaign?
Yes, especially in New Jersey. Christie wants to remove the ability of politicians, especially bought and paid for politicians, from being able to buy support from the unions with taxpayer money.
I think we probably need to follow the money. Do we have proof this has happened? Who do you blame? The politicians or the Unions? How about in VA? Do professional associations contribute to campaigns? There is no collective bargaining pay off. Does that weaken the argument?
Gov. Malloy of Conn. seems to have a much less draconian plan. Both he and Christie were on Morning Joe this am.
If Virginia has no collective bargaining and yet still, the professional associations donate to campaigns, does this not blow holes in the idea that union contracts were bought and paid for with taxpayer money?
Remember, tax payers are not paying the union dues. In Virginia, pac money goes to the campaigns.
Dem reps now calling for protesters to “get a little bloody”… just curious, who is being blamed for violence and violent rhetoric?
http://regator.com/p/247574909/more_violent_rhetoric_dem_rep_to_unions_time/
Seems like Dem reps are only in this because of the $$$$ and are willing to instigate violence and blood shed to keep that $$$$.
Hello, one person said that, not Dem repS. There is a jerk in every crowd. One jerk with careless speech shouldn’t represent millions of people.
Moon,
It might help if you examin which states have had strong public sector union activities, and correlate that with those states currently deep under water from a budget perspective. (Hint, the vast majority are solidly “blue states”). In these states, there has been a quid-pro-quo between electeds, and the unions. Is it any wonder why Obama has chosen to get involved in the dust-up? The Democrat party has long been dependent on both public and private sector unions as a base of financial and operational support. I don’t think it’s a conincidence that almost every one of these states is crashing financially, whereas the right-to-work states are recovering much more quickly. It isn’t a coincidence that the census points to a mass migration of better educated, higher-wage earning americans, away from these union states. Also, many companies are pulling chocks and moving to right-to-work states as well.
In another thread, you mentioned Detroit. Do you know that the city has been forced to abandon many neighborhoods from a services perspective? Only the most basic of services (911 initiated emergency response to calls for police, fire, ambulance). No regular patrols. No trash pickup. No sewer and water maintenance, etc. etc. It is because the tax-base has collapsed. Why is it that Michigan was in a recession years before the rest of the country? I’m going to point to the unions, both public and private, that drove up the cost of everything, to the point where the taxpayers who could leave…did.
You are correct in pointing out that in Virginia, unions cannot strike, and there is no “collective bargining”. The professional associations that pass for unions, lobby the legislature just like any other issue advocacy group. Without the monopolization of the labor pool, there isn’t the coercive force required to extort sweetheart deals out of the employer (private, state, or municipality), as we have seen happen in union states.
The chickens are coming home to roost for the unions. The tax-payers are sick to death of them, and I believe the trend we see spreading across the upper-midwest to continue, into the NE, and maybe even out to the west coast. The till is empty in these states. If taxes are raised, there will be another mass migration out of these regions, to right-to-work states. I for one, think it is long overdue.
@Steve, I would say that the chickens are coming home to roost for some of the politicians. See my comments on collective bargaining. There is simply no reason that bargaining, which in reality is give/take, should be so out of control. The politicians allowed it to get out of control. Connecticut, a blue state, has had a long line of non-D governors dating back to 1991, I think. Right now, Gov. Malloy is digging out from under sweetheart deals from previous administrations.
I maintain that the polticiians need to be held accountable for irresponsible bargaining. It is possible for collective bargaining to go on without strapping a jurisdictions for its firstborn. I also think it is possible to have collective bargaining without closed shop. That is the reform I would like to see.
Yes, they will be coming to Virginia. And will we be welcoming, the way Oregon welcomed my father and his Oklahoma family during the Dust Bowl?
And after the brouhaha over unions has subsided the public can turn its attention to the tax breaks given businesses by our local and state governments. How much are we paying per job created? How much local tax or state tax will the new company pay over the next five or ten years? Whose coffers were enriched when the company relocated or formed? What type of commitment did the corporation make to warrant its tax benefit?
Public employees are not the enemy.
Why is it we can find money to bail out Wall St millionaires but we can’t find money for health care and retirement for public employees? Can somebody explain that to me?
Oh, those nasty blue states – aren’t they the ones bailing out the welfare (red) states with their federal tax dollars?
@Steve, I would say that the chickens are coming home to roost for some of the politicians.
Moon,
I’d say that happened last November. The governors and legislatures of many these states (WI, OH, NJ,) are new. They were elected to control spending. That’s what they are attempting to do. All these games the Democrats are playing( legistlators going AWOL, Tim Kaine busing in union organizers/members from out of state, etc.) are doing nothing except enraging the voters against the Democrat party. I predict a HUGE backlash against both public and private sector unions, and the Democrat party. It started with Obamacare, and all the exemptions given to the unions, and now it rolls into the state budget issues. Look for it to sperad lower into the larger municipalities.
As a student of history and politics, I can’t help but remember Napoleon’s quote: If your opponent is destroying himself, do not interefere.
Those people have always been enraged at the Democratic party.
@Steve,
The union situation didn’t just evolve overnight. None of those states have long histories of Democrat governors. Ohio has had a long Republican reign, 1991-2007. New Jersey, well, you have me on that one. Wisconsin has had 1 Dem governor since 1987 so there was a good Republican seige in there. Who gave these concession to unions that are supposedly breaking the backs of the states?
I still call for reform. I would like to see open shop with collective bargaining for private and public employees. Public employees are not children of a lesser god.
I am also going to stick with my white man blow back theory.
Censored,
You might want to check your facts. Mississippi may receive more in federal dollars, than they pay in, but they are an exception. If you look at the amount of fed money poured into Michigan, your argument will fail. The Red states are on a much firmer fiscal footing than the Blue states. Add in the fact that the state and local tax burdens are smaller in the Red States, and the picture becomes clearer. Why is the Texas economy booming, and California is on life-support? Why is Virginia doing so much better than New York? Why does the GOP now control most of the governorships and state legislatures? It’s because the voters realized that the bill is coming due, and the Democrats think they can spend their way out of recession.
Steve, nice quote. I’ll have to use that one day.
MH et al
http://www.boston.com/news/local/rhode_island/articles/2011/02/23/providence_issues_layoff_notices_to_all_teachers/
Don’t yell at me. I’m just the messanger. 🙂
How much do you wanna bet that you won’t hear that moron’s quote on ABC, CBS, NBC, MSDNC, etc… But it there was an R next to his name and it was about the TEA party would it be plastered everywhere? You betcha 🙂
@hello, who gives a crap? seriously. Quit whining. Boo effen Hoo. So picked on. I feel certain that Faux News would gladly pick up the cause.
and this blog…
@Steve Thomas
Re red & blue states, show me something more recent than this:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/the_red_state_ripoff.html
Note that the article says the states are acting in opposition to their best interests.
Texas is also facing a deficit.
@Moon-howler
This isn’t ‘some jerk in the crowd’ urging union members to start shedding blood in the streets. This is U.S. Representative urging violence by saying “Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary”.
When violence does start, which it will, who will LSM blame? Who will you blame? Me thinks it will be anyone with an R next to their name, not the actual United States Representative calling for it, I’m just saying…
These austerity measures will not decrease unemployment, nor will they mean higher home values or other assets. They will not bring jobs back from abroad. They will not make college more affordable, or decrease health care costs.
What these measures will do is decrease the quality of government services we have come to expect. Our standards of living will decline. That is what austerity will accomplish.
@Starryflights
Could it have something to do with their ‘undocumented immigrant’ problem?
Censored,
You will have to do much better than that. I tried to get to the source document, and received and error “404: Document not found”. By every metric, (unemployment, budget deficit, realized individual tax burden, etc.) the Red States are much healthier fiscally than are blue. The census doesn’t lie either: people are voting with their feet. You’ll see what I mean when congressional redistricting happens, and New York loses seats, while Texas gains.
This past election eve, I was giddy, giddy I say, at the fact the Democrats had so painted themselves into a corner, trying to pander to special interests such as unions and environmentalists, that they lost middle America. Because of redistricting, the Democrats will be digging themselves out of a PR mess for a loooong time. All this nonsense going on in WI, and now IL is just making them look like petulant children. The voters won’t forget it anytime soon. This latest dust-up over public sector unions is just another sign that the Democrats are crumbling at all levels of government…and it’s all because of spending. Sure, the GOP did a fair amount of spending when they had control of the congress, but nothing along the scale of what happened from the time the Democrats took control in 2006, until this last lame-duck. At the state level, even those states that regularly elected GOP governors, had legislatures that were long controled by Democrats. Now many of these state houses are controlled by the GOP…in a year of redistricting. Oh Ho!
Also, please look at the Democrats “bench”. They don’t have one. Whereas the GOP has been growing “young guns” like Cantor and Ryan, they also have a slew of Governors to pick from to run at the national level.
While the Democrats have been playing “checkers” these last four years, the GOP has been playing “chess”. With redistricting comes “check”, and in 2012 “mate”. This stuff with the unions is just one move, and the Democrats are reacting in a very predictible fashion. If the urgency weren’t so great, and the danger to our long-term fiscal health so dire, I’d be in polticial nirvana, watching the democrat death-spiral going on.
Probably no more so than the federal government’s deficit is the result of illegal immigrants. Hah, if only our deficit problems were that simple!
By the way, has anybody noticed that we are about a week away from a government shutdown?
This is all one big story, man. Public employees are under attack at all levels.
Austerity will mean that we all start living within our means. You cannot borrow your way out of bankruptcy. You can’t increase standards of living for all, by increasing the taxes on the few producers, because they will quit producing.
Producers can’t do much with uneducated workers or crumbling infrastructure either.
Starry,
And when the US defaults on its debt, and the world dumps the dollar as it reserve currency, how educated our workforce is, how sound our public infrastructure is will matter little. Chapter 7, or Chapter 11, these are our choices, but choose we must.
Wow, that sounds exactly like what George Soros has wanted and worked for… maybe he is the smart one and we are all the idiots.
Just a quick question… when is MSNBC or the Sorors mouthpiece HuffingtonPost going to highlight the racist remarks against black conservatives? Never? Got it, thanks… http://www.theblaze.com/stories/alleged-seiu-protesters-heckle-uneducated-black-tea-partier-ask-if-he-has-children-he-claims/
Steve, I’d be reluctant to exhibit too much braggadocio about Republican wins in a midterm election. No one thinks Obama inherited a sound economy. And no one thinks Republicans are winning any popularity contests or have any answers – the voters despise both parties almost equally. As a Republican, you should wonder where your wins would have been without some Tea Party activists. The Tea Party could take its followers to a third party. But, cough, cough we know they’re Republicans. So, if they aren’t Republicans, they can take their support elsewhere;and if they are Republicans, they can take your party over the cliff with their wackiness.
I’m sure some cuts have to be made – and taxes raised as well. Bush seemed to think you could wage war without paying for it. And before you yell “neener, neener – Obama has us at war too”, think about who started that mess. And instead of warring on your neighbor, why not look at where the real money is and how it controls our society and political process. Of course, that won’t elect Republicans just expose their donors.
@Censored bybvbl
Agree 100% about voters views on both parties. However, if the Tea Party is all Republican and could lead to a third party where does that leave the distinguished Coffee Party?
If this whole thing is about “workers rights” being taken away where is the right for the worker to NOT be FORCED to pay $1,000 a year in union dues?
“And before you yell “neener, neener – Obama has us at war too”, think about who started that mess.”
Starry,
I would never yell “neener, neener” at anyone, and if there is one thing I do think Obama is doing right, it is aggressively prosecuting the war in Afghanistan. Now if he could just get his act together on foreign policy with respect to Iran, North Korea, and the mid-east, we might be ok there.
As far as the TEA Party goes, I don’t recall a single winner in any race with a “T”, next to their name. They supported and elected Republicans. We’ll sort out our party, just like we’ve been doing since 2006. If it takes the TEA Party to keep the establishment on its collective toes, so be it. Big picture, long-view, the Democrats have some real problems, and I don’t see the Coffee Party getting them back on track. I am not talking about ideology. I am talking simple electoral strategy. Discount the deeper ramifications of 2010 if you want. I’ll stick with basic mathmatics. Democrats will lose even more house seats from redistricting, as states like NY lose seats, and states like Texas gain. Congressmen like Gerry Connolly, who barely survived reelection, will most likely lose their seats as well. Yes, the Senate will be in play, always, as well as the WH, but having a solid lock on one house makes the GOP that much stronger. Oh, and don’t forget the states. They will redistrict as well, and gues who controls that…look for GOP consolidation in a majority of states as well.
@hello
I have no idea who LSM is. How about Thomas Jefferson? Should we dig him up and admonish him for saying “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants?”
The guy is a jerk. There is a jerk in every crowd, as you continue to illustrate with your punk remarks on this blog.
@Steve Thomas
“think Obama is doing right, it is aggressively prosecuting the war in Afghanistan.”
I agree with all except the above. President Obama has already told the enemy of our surrender date. His first strategic act was to determine our exit. Everything until then is useless. I would rather that he had just said, “F##k it, pull out now.” then do this. The enemy knows when we are leaving and any possible allies know that we are leaving. Even Karzai is working for the Iranians now. He knows that they going to be neighbors without us being around to keep them somewhat honest.
@Cargo, I don’t think that we have a surrender date. I don’t think we are doing that.
From what I’ve seen, state goverment budgets are tight because of the economy, stupid. During the boom years in much of the 90’s and the aughts, every year the state treasury and finance authorities warned that the increases in revenues were attributable to volatile sources like recordation tax and corporate income tax. The increase in the recordation taxes was directly attributable to unsustainable housing bubble, now burst. Corporate income taxes boom in boom times and fall away during recession. Republican and Democratic administrations were warned time and again not to start permanent spending with temporary money and both D’s and R’s ignored the warnings.
During the boom times when we should have been building up our unemployment trust fund, for example, the Allen administration insisted on a tax holiday. The employers who had their tax holiday are now reaping the consequences of an insolvent trust fund by paying much higher taxes. They also feel abused because they didn’t used to pay anything, and now they’re having to pay when times are bad. If unemployment insurance is, indeed, insurance, what insurance policy do you know of that has a $0 premium?
Our boom economy was based on cheap credit, overspending, and speculation. The bubble bursting is having the same effect on government that it has had on individuals — it’s way too facile to lay the problems at the feet of public employees and immigrants.
The President stated that we are going to start leaving in July of 2011. If you tell the enemy that you are leaving the field to them….that’s surrender. Either we win or lose. That’s how the war game is played.
And exit strategy is fine. You might need one. BUT! you are only supposed to use it if you are losing. Keep that strategy close to the vest. Otherwise, you tell the enemy the conditions that they have to achieve to win. All the Taliban and Iran have to do is…..wait.
Cargo, we aren’t at war with Afghanistan are we? I thought we went there after the Taliban and what’s his face. I don’t know what the answer is. But I refuse to use the word surrendering for exit strategy. Those of us from the ‘Nam era cringe at the word surrender.
We are at war with the Taliban. That’s the enemy I’m talking about.
As for the ‘Nam era, my brother was a Marine helicopter pilot. And he uses that term when he talks about how the US abandoned South Vietnam. Unless you win, you are beaten or you have surrendered the field of battle. That is a military fact of life.
“we aren’t at war with Afghanistan are we?”
Just realized, Did you mean Iran because I mentioned it? Iran is very busy buying influence and supplying weapons and training to the Taliban, just as they did to the insurgency in Iraq. They have been our enemy and have been at war with us since 1979. Just because we don’t acknowledge it, doesn’t make it true.
@Cargo, that is why no one likes the term surrender. War has changed. You can leave a place now without surrender. You don’t stand there and make them look like Hiroshima.
Cargo, no, I didn’t mean Iran. I meant we haven’t declared war on Afghanistan.
Ok. I wasn’t sure where you were going with it. I was thinking that you knew I was talking about the Taliban.
And war hasn’t changed in that the victor is the one that controls the terrain. Sure, we can leave without a formal surrender. But those that leave without a victory have still lost. And if you do it without the enemy forcing you to do so, you have surrendered the field.
No one likes the term surrender when applied to ones own forces. That’s why no one is using it. But, just because the term is not being used, does not mean its not happening.
From where I sit, I don’t see where the President actually has the authority to unilaterally withdraw his forces without victory or defeat. Its Congress that authorizes force. Its Congress that has to decide when hostilities end. The Commander in Chief is supposed to execute any war until victory or defeat or until Congress says stop.
Now that I’ve opened THAT can of worms…..I’m off for coffee.
@Cargo, then by all means we should stay there, continually dumping billions in a month. We ought to stay even though data was manipulated and our senators were targetted by some in the military to be tricked into dumping more money and human beings into this effort.
Yes, let’s stay there a while longer. We can kick public employees to the curb and dump our troops into the abyss. We can drain our coffers because of a few jerks’ need for something to do with their sick little lives. Yup, another runaway general doing his own thing. Psyops on Senators?
We ought to stay even though data was manipulated and our senators were targetted by some in the military to be tricked into dumping more money and human beings into this effort.
Hasn’t been proven and was reported by the same reporter that got McChrystal fired.
Sen. Levin says that nothing happened. If it happened, hammer him. Apparently, he allegedly stage managed a visit to drum up sympathy to get more money for ops. And these Senators have access to enough intel to know whether they should support more effort or not. Psy-ops during such a short visit would probably do very little. Maybe Wolverine would know more.
And yes, if we are actually serious about fighting the Taliban and Al Queada, we stay there. That’s why we went there and people died there. If we are not, then Obama should have had the courage to say that and pull people out IMMEDIATELY.
ANY President declaring an end to military ops before victory, leaving the enemy in control of the field is a surrender or abrogation of his duties, since, in my way of thinking, only Congress has that authority since they have the authority to initiate military operations.
President Obama should go before Congress and ask THEM what he should do. Continue the war or not? Their choice. Its his job to execute it as Commander in Chief.