Washington Post: [Virginia Politics] 2/23/11
The Virginia Senate has postponed a major vote over abortion rights, as Democrats in the chamber hunt for votes to kill last-minute legislation that would regulate clinics where first trimester abortions are performed as hospitals.
The chamber Wednesday began a debate over the abortion clinic amendment added by the House of Delegates to an unrelated bill. Sen. Jeff McWaters (R-Virginia Beach) told colleagues that the measure is needed to ensure the safety of women who seek abortions.
Sen. Mary Margaret Whipple (D-Arlington) said that Virginia would be the first state in the country to regulate first trimester abortion clinics as hospitals and that the rules, which include regulations on hallway and doorway width, would put the majority of the state’s abortion clinics out of business.
Two conservative Democrats have said they will vote for the bill. If all of the chamber’s 18 Republicans also back the measure Thursday, the chamber would face a tie vote. A tie would be broken by Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling (R), who supports the bill.
A spokesman for Gov. Bob McDonnell (R) said Wednesday that governor supports the amendment and will sign the bill if the senate approves it.
“He encourages the Senate to approve this commonsense measure that will ensure that all outpatient surgical centers are treated the same, in order to ensure the health and safety of our citizens,” said McDonnell spokesman Tucker Martin. “He will sign the bill if it passes the full legislature. At that time we would then work with the appropriate state agencies to promulgate regulations consistent with this statue.”
By Rosalind S. Helderman
This is a serious bill that will put some clinics that provide abortion services out of business, which is the bill’s intent. Virginians will just have to go to other states if they need abortion service if existing clinics cannot widen their hallways and increase their door width and basically turn in to mini hospitals. Certainly the building codes are not the only restrictions. The bill, if passed, would make any clinic performing more than 5 abortions a month meet hospital standards.
The question Virginians should be asking themselves is do they want all outpatient surgeries to conform to this same standard? Oral surgery, some dentistry, dermatology, plastic surgery all have surgeries performed and many of these procedures have a much higher risk than abortion. Virginia will probably become the mecca for RU-486 abortions. Those patient requiring surgical abortion might have to go to adjoining states or the District.
It seems to me, all or none. Either all outpatient surgical procedure fall under these draconian rules or none do. That is the part of this plan that simply won’t pass the smell test or hold up in court. Our own local Senator Colgan will probably be one of 2 state senators who support the bill. If that should happen, he had better not count on putting a sign in my yard again. One can be opposed to abortion without just being ridiculous.
Let’s lay out that discrimination lawsuit if this thing passes.
Most vasectomies are performed in outpatient facilities. Bunions are removed as an outpatient by trained professionals who have not been to medical school. Same with teeth being pulled in a dentist’s office. Cortisone shots for some orthopedic ailments need antesthesia. There are literally hundreds of procedures that are done in outpatient facilities. If only abortion is subjected to the new ‘hospital regs’ there is clearly discrimination. More money wasted. Lawsuit time. Weeeeee doggies.
Shooting ourselves in the foot… 🙄
http://www.roanoke.com/politics/wb/278047
SB 924 – a reasonable move to avoid horror “clinics” like the one recently
exposed in Penn. or a “camel nose under the tent” move by conservatives
to stop all abortions?
Note that our own Senator Colgan may cast the decisive vote on this measure.
@Big Dog
And the bill abosolutely will not help avoid the horrors of the PA doctor. That can happen anywhere if people don’t complain and if no one ever drops by.
This bill doesn’t address creeps who ought to be drummed out of the medical profession. Actually Planned Parenthood and NARAL both issued a warning on some creep practicing in NoVA last fall.
What plans does Virginia have to cut down on the botch jobs with plastic surgery? Was it Kenye West whose mother died as a result of poor medical practice during out patient cosmetic surgery?
“Note that our own Senator Colgan may cast the decisive vote on this measure.”
Well then it is a goner. Sen. Colgan is a proud supporter of the forced pregnancy camp.
http://www.slate.com/id/2285810/
Sadly, there is ample evidence of abortion clinics needing more over sight
to insure quality medical standards and practices.
You know, this is really just an attempt to further limit abortion because if clinics were closed and all early abortions were performed in hospitals, there’d still be bitching by the anti-choice people. They’d make hospitals have to put up with their threats of defunding or their protests at the door or on the sidewalks. It’s more a war on women than a concern for their safety. Just how many clinics in Virginia have been found to be crappy anyway?
I’ve heard these arguments made by individuals that they are here merely because their mothers chose or didn’t have access to abortion. I’d bet many baby boomers were unplanned children whose mothers didn’t have access to reliable contraception. One of my sisters and I might fall into this category. We were born while my father (a returning GI) was working full-time and going to college full-time and he and my mother were living with her father and brother. I doubt they wanted to add family additions to the mix. However, I would never use my birth as an excuse to deny other people choices in their reproductive lives. I believe that to be the epitome of arrogance.
@Big Dog, There have been a few clinics that do not comply with standards. Putting hospital standards on all of the clinics will not, repeat NOT, fix the problem.
Big Dog, you talk like the article in Slate is standard practive, ignoring the many high quality clinics that provide good medical care. Did you also drink the kool aid?
Perhaps more OSHA inspections and clinic inspections would have prevented PA and FL problems. The pro choice is more than willing to agree to practices that make abortion an even safer, legal procedure. They do not tolerate bad medical practices.
Every time the pro choice groups report bad practices, the information is scooped up and used for ammo.
Most abortion clinics are have excellent medical standards and practices. Of course it makes perfect sense to hold Virginia Clinic accountable for what goes on in Florida. Let’s talk about problems in Virginia clinics.
What happens in Florida I can do nothing about. Where were there inspectors? Where was the health department? Where was OSHA?
I got an alert that this has passed. Is that true?
It probably has passed. It was expected to.
Bring on the law suits. First an injunction. Then all the pro choice money will pour in to Virginia. What a shame. Now folks, this is extremism.
Here is the full text of the bill:
http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bill/2011/hb1428/fulltext/
Along the same topic on the Federal level:
Sen. Warner 703 442 0670
Sen. Webb 703 573 7090
Urge the senator to vote NO on the Pence Amendment. They will ask you for your zip code.
The Pence Amendment plans to defund Planned Parenthood thus cutting off birth control to thousands and thousands of poor women and students.
Wait. Money coming INTO Virginia?
We should call this a jobs/economy bill and call it a day!!! 🙂
Yah looks like according to my FB stream it passed.
The Bill just passed. Was 20-20. LG voted in favor and broke the tie. I can’t see the Governor not signing this into law.
@ Steve, he said he would sign it.
——————————————————————————————————-
The money will pour into Virginia to fight it. There will be court challenges.
I expect there will be an injunction while the case is heard to keep the law from going in to effect. Just so everyone knows, this bill will not make abortion safer. It will simply drive it out of Virginia.
Middle class people will go out of state. Economically disadvantaged people will struggle for access. I hope that the people of Virginia are willing to deal with the plight of unwanted children. It won’t be a pretty picture. Let’s see, on the federal level, Planned Parenthood will be defunded. Access to contraception will be limited. In Va, having a facility to accommodate legal abortion is cost prohibitive. Those clinics also dispense contraception.
What a bunch of dog d—s. It truly is a war on poor women. I always thought that expression was hyperbole until very recently Women with means will take care of things. Women without ….not so much.
Moon,
You may have a point about women going out of state. If I am not mistaken, the woman who died at the hands of that PA “butcher”, hailed from Woodbridge. I think she went out of state because she was seeking a “late term abortion”.
Most people here have seen my arguments concerning abortion, etc. You know where I stand.
THIS guy is a lunatic and a recall election needs to be set up. He shouldn’t be allowed near lawmaking the same way Jared Loughner shouldn’t be around a loaded gun:
http://www.newser.com/story/112773/georgia-state-rep-bobby-franklin-wants-to-make-miscarriages-abortions-punishable-by-death.html
What a freaking idiot! He makes humans, much less conservatives or Christians, look bad.
Cargo,
I believe I share your views on abortion, and I agree that this GA lawmaker way off-base.
Yes, she was from Woodbridge, according to the papers. Do you seriously think that making all clinics turn into hospitals in Virginia would have stopped what happened in the inner city in PA?
Perhaps regulations should have come in the form of health dept. inspections or more frequent OSHA inspections if thre was a problem in Virginia.
There was no problem. This is a TRAP law.
Cargo, I will look at your Georgia guy later. Right now, I am more concerned about our own set of A-Holes right here in Virginia. I do not have a legislator who represents me.
I doubt dog dare Miller, Wolf or Colgan to call my house or ask to put a sign in my yard. I will look like a pussy cat compared to the ranting and raving of Mr. Howler. He would probably tell them all three to bend over the mood he is in over this.
Yup. While I’m not a fan of the VA legislation listed here the GA legislator is just plain flippin’ retarded. I’d like a few minutes to give him a piece of my mind.
Ok Cargo and Steve, you want government out of everyone’s business. Yet you have no problem with them being in my business.
You want government to spend less. Any idea how much more you will spend with access to birth control limited?
You want government to make the most personal of decisions? You aren’t really conservatives other than by convenience.
I trust women to make their own morally appropriate choices without interference from strangers or the government.
My edge on you, in addition to being female, is that I can remember the bad old days when abortion wasn’t safe and legal.
This subject makes me sick. I would say that I wished urology clinics where vasectomies were performed had to become ‘hospitals.’ Then I thought about it. No, I don’t wish that. I don’t wish it because most of the men I know who have had vasectomies trust women to make their own personal decisions. I wouldn’t want men to have to go out of state or pay ten times more for a vasectomy. H/T to all who do the right thing.
That Georgia A-Hole is just that. He isn’t even worthy of my ire. Actually, he is probably just more honest than a lot of other people. Those who want us to think that first-trimester abortions facilities should meet the same standards as hospitals in TRAP bills like SB 924(Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers) are just kidding the public. They really want to do strike down abortion. So does Mr. Franklin. He just says so right up front and he will punish those who disobey him.
Fortunately, he is extreme enough that even the extremist can’t buy in. He is up there close to Paul Hill, Scott Roeder, or Michael Griffin in extremism.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/breaking/wb/278105
Some clinics apparently already meet the requirements.
The blog Not Larry Sabato blames the the Senate Democrat
Leadership Team for “allowing this to happen”.
It would put 17 clinics out of business.
I am not sure whose fault it is other than those who voted for it. To say that they are concerned about women’s health is about as disingenuous as it gets. It is about ending abortion or making it totally unattainable.
Ok, big Dog, I checked it out. Ben is right. A few state senators were asleep at the switch. According to not Larry Sabato:
http://notlarrysabato.typepad.com/doh/2011/02/democrats-are-responsible-for-the-abortion-regulations-passing.html
Too bad 2 democrats sold out. One was Chuck Colgan. So you drum him out of office and 2 more Religious Right extremist are waiting to take his place. The other was Philip Puckett.
I will call anyone a liar who believes this legislation is about improving health facilities in Virginia. It is all about anti abortion. Nothing else.
Blue Virginia Blog has the following to say:
http://www.bluevirginia.us/showDiary.do;jsessionid=E82E6C3633ACC083539492B6DE4FEF84?diaryId=3201
Yes, it’s a war on women by a bunch of paternalistic little men in our society. Thank goodness most of the men I know and like don’t fall into that control-freak category. Until I started reading our local right wing blog, I didn’t know such petty men existed in this urban area….except in very small numbers.
I can see a check being sent to Planned Parenthood in the near future.
It was arrogant of Sen. Colgan to think that his personal background warranted taking away Virginia females’ right to easy access to a legal choice. He won’t be getting my vote in the future should he try to run again. (You Repubs shouldn’t take that as an endorsement of your candidate either.)
Absolutely not. totally agreed, Censored.
I knew that they existed but only because of my work with the pro choice community. Pathetic.
Planned Parenthood and NARAL will both get checks. Maybe more than one if this crap keeps up.
I’ve had it with the Colgan-worship in this town, and I’m actually glad to see that that little tool has pissed off a few would-be supporters. At 84 years old, he’s done more than enough to advance his family’s financial interests, and is doing nothing more than keeping the seat from going to a Republican. Time to retire, old man.
@Moon-howler
You want government to make the most personal of decisions? You aren’t really conservatives other than by convenience.
I trust women to make their own morally appropriate choices without interference from strangers or the government.
Moon, since you brought it up, I wasn’t going to discuss the decisions here, but…
I want government to protect the rights of the most helpless. That is one of the duties of government. If Planned Parenthood did nothing but prenatal care and contraception, etc, I’d have no problem with it. You, yourself, have said that you are against abortion. You want people to make their own choices. Well, if one believes that abortion is the killing of a baby, then government should prohibit that. However, settled law has decided that abortion is not murder, therefore, abortion is legal. That does not mean that people automatically change their minds. They are as adamant about their opinion as you are about yours.
My being conservative does not mean that I don’t want the government taking care of people if they need a temporary safety net. That’s why I’m a small “l” libertarian conservative. It is the duty of parents to care for children. Yes, I know that there are unwanted children. But, they do not always stay that way. Protection of life is one of the duties of the government. So, therefore I support that. And I’m not going to get into the abortion discussion again.
The government makes the most personal decisions all the time. Part of that is why we want less gov’t control. My being conservative also means that I want government to following in its prescribed path. Funding Planned Parenthood or anything like that is not something I think that the federal gov’t should fund.
I respect the good Senator Colgan has done for his community. He is a humble man and has never strutted his wealth. He raised his kids to be good citizens.
However, I think in the case of this clinic bill, he failed to familiarize himself with the facts. He went with his emotions. That is not informed governance and I am very disappointed, and yes, angry over the passage of this bill.
If you want to end abortion, make sure that all people have access to safe, reliable contraception. Don’t sneak and make providers have to put in double wide doors and double wide halls, and parking lots that meet certain hospital conditions.
This makes me sick.
Btw, I see that there will be checks forthcoming for the support of Planned Parenthood. I support that. People should always support their principles.
Now, lest you feel that I’m being dense, I do know that Planned Parenthood provides “easy access inexpensively” to services. Do we have that kind of money? Also, if we do, can we have the government subsidize other expensive services to support rights? There’s a ,45 that I’ve wanted, but can’t afford. You may think I’m being flip, but poor people need firearms too. Can we get the government to provide easy and cheap access to firearms for poor people so that they can better defend themselves against crime?
Title X funding for family planning has been around since 1970. Who knows where title X funds will go now. Probably to something I don’t approve of.
Having unplanned and/or unwanted children costs the govt a fortune. I am not so sure not having a .45 costs that much.
I don’t plan on paying for birth control for someone. The govt. can pay all for all the services for the little children that result from this stupidity. I hope all the people who pushed for this bill will be making adoption plans. That includes adopting handicapped and babies born to drug addicted parents. An ounce of prevention, you know.
I will contribute political money for elections and those sorts of things.
There are many who feel that high-speed internet should be provided to all, too. Imagine: The right to Life, Liberty and Facebook.
Emma, I was reading something today that said most TV will be over the internet. That surprised me.
Some people don’t carry arms and don’t move through life in fear of being a crime victim. I’ve only known one person in my entire life who owned a handgun, and that person was convicted of murdering her partner with it. The comparison of the right to own a gun with the right to affordable reproductive health care is outrageous.
@BoyThreeOne
You are absolutely right. One is an enumerated right recognized by the Constitution and can be considered an asset for the furtherance of a human right.
The other one is a product provided by the market.
Moon,
You say that these “unplanned and/or unwanted children costs the gov’t a fortune.” I’m not calling you a liar. Don’t get me wrong. But…where is that information? How do they separate these children from all the “wanted” children that are part of the welfare rolls, etc? And do they stay unwanted? How do we know?
As for not having a gun when you need it……hideously expensive. To the family, individual, and the criminal that we will probably catch and put in jail. If you have it and use it correctly, its mostly “expensive” for the criminal.
Cargo,
So you are clearly in full support of headstart and WIC. You must be outraged by the republicans efforts to cut billions from these critical programs that feed helpless children. I am also glad to see that you are in full support of a single payer health system so that innocent and vulnerable poor people can have access to decent healthcare.
Let me share with you Cargo, how hyprocritical the argument of social conservativis is to me. On one had, you loathe the destruction of fetus’s and care nothing for the rights of the women who carry them. Yet on the other hand, you loathe to have the government require you to buy healthcare. My little sister had a stroke at the age of 25, it was hormonally induced, she should probably never children. Why is it the governments business what she does with her body if she gets pregant? If by regulation, abortion is outlawed, should getting an abortion require obtaining “permsision” from some stranger!
Let me tell you that plenty of women forty years ago were forced to PLEAD the right of their own body to some male stranger physician in order to get their “G-dly” permission to end their pregancy. You know what I FIND offensive, that most very anti choice people almost always use the bible as their reason to tell me what I can and cannot do with MY OWN BODY!
Some strangers religion does not belong in my uterus. Don’t want an abortion, don’t have one. I remember when my mom worked for a social servies organization that placed foster care families with children. They were ALWAYS in dire need for good families to place children with, many kids were in group homes. WHERE, WHERE are all these “pro-life” zealots when it comes to actually helping children in this country? Oh, wait, that’s right, just lift yourself up by your boot straps, even if you don’t have boots.
Cargo,
Do you realize how silly you sound? HPV causes cervical cancer if not caught early enough, does that sound like a worthwhile endeavor, to save womens lives? Does that sound like a joke?
What poor people need are a good education and jobs, not a gun. Furthermore, to be FORCED to have a child when you cannot afford it is one helluva tax! But I guess that’s different than being forced to by healthcare.
@Cargo, I never said was against abortion. I never said how I felt. That isn’t a decision I can make for others as long as they are inside the constraints of Roe.
I believe that the rights of grown women certainly supercede those of zygotes and embryos.
Cargo, if someone gets pregnant because they can’t get contraception, then can we assume no one is doing carthwheels over the pregnancy? That is all I meant. Don’t nit pick me. Lets say every last one of them is a wanted child. Their parents just can’t pay for them. What do we call that. Regardless, everyone prepare to pony up.
My nine year old just had a gum graft, pretty intense oral surgery, how’s that gonna work out for all those periodontists when they have to have the same facility as a woman’s health care clinic.
What this bill will do is rally all the people who once believed that abortion was not at risk in Virginia or anywhere else in this country. It will rally all the women who LIVED through a time when women DIED due to botched abortions, it will rally young women who took for granted their rights to their own body.
Once again, let me make this clear about the blatent hyprocrisy I see. All these fiscal conservatives talk about “get government out my life” ” dont’ tread on me” blah blah blah and yet you have no problem FORCING a tax of hundreds of thousdand of dollars on a woman forced to raise a child.
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
Anyone read the Handmaids Tale? Maybe we can just force these women who can’t afford to have a child to do the right thing and give them up for adoption to wealthier households.
Elena, I watched a portion of the Handmaid’s Tale and it looked..interesting. My wife said she read it for AP English back in her high school days.
For the rest of this debate I can only say it sucks having the government intruding upon our healthcare AND increasing regulation in the free market, does it not?
The argument coming from you guys is based on the idea that conservatives should be pro-choice because it keeps the government from interfering with citizens.
Why is it that you completely ignore the fact that many people believe that a “fetus” is a baby and that abortion kills babies? I didn’t want to get into detail with you, but… it seems that you are saying that abortion for contraception is fine. So, what is the limit? Abortion is fine all the way up to the second of birth and to some…during birth. Unwanted children should die because they are unwanted? I can’t believe that’s what your saying. You keep talking about the rights of the woman to defend her body. Ok. I understand that. “Fetuses” have bodies too.
I’ve been trying NOT to get into this disussion. People did die due to botched abortions. Guess what? Children die because of successful abortions. You object to those that can’t afford these unwanted babies giving them up to “wealthier” homes. So, its better to kill the fetus. You try to use my conservatism about the duty of the federal government to stay within Constitutional bounds to say that the government should not protect the rights of the unborn. Well, you won. Its settled law. Why does it have to be federally funded?
Why can’t a woman or a man get contraception? Are condoms that expensive? Is not having sex without protection that expensive? Have we fallen so far that the sex drive is not controllable or that to satisfy those needs that they can’t do “something else” together?
Sure, pregnancies happen. Unwanted babies happen. I WAS ONE OF THEM. The statement that “unwanted children are unloved children” is a lie. Does it happen? Yes. 100%? No.
You want to support abortion. Go ahead. I’ve given up on that fight. To be honest, I don’t even disagree with you completely, because I’m human. I can see where you are coming from. But I also believe that fetuses are living human unborn babies that left unmolested will grow into a human being. I’m not even “using the bible” to support that idea. I’m suing science. You support abortion on demand because a woman’s rights override a fetuses, no matter what age that fetus is. Now, in addition to having the right to access to abortion, you are demanding a RIGHT to federal funds for services. This is no different than any other service.
As for that safety net, I said a TEMPORARY safety net. WIC is one. Single payer health care is not. Headstart is going to be there anyway. Why? I don’t know. More than one study shows that it doesn’t help. If you’re talking about the fed’l level, please tell me where we are going to get the billions to pay for those programs and what else we should cut? We’re not allowed to cut the “mandatory” budget. Everything else, including “children’s programs” is borrowed. Everything. So, what do we cut to pay for those billions?
However, single payer actually makes more sense that the monstrosity of Obamacare. Medical payments would be a tax. And like all government agencies, the medical agencies and care would fail. I still don’t support it because I see the failures of single payer in other countries.
I agree that poor people need education and a job. I was using that analogy because it talks about the subsidization of a right. And some poor people need that gun to stay alive in some of those neighborhoods, but that is a different discussion. I brought it up only as an analogy related to the subsidization of rights.
I know that I’m not going to change you minds. I’m not trying to. I’m not even stating that your position is indefensible. I’m trying to defend my position that the federal government should not be funding abortions. I’m not impugning your motives or calling you hypocrites. You call “social conservatives” hypocrites because they don’t adopt enough. Of course, adoption procedures and fostering procedures both have very high hurdles to pass. I thought about adopting after we lost our first child. My wife and I thought about it long and hard, investigated what would have to be done, and realized that while we would be able to provide a loving home, the red tape was insane. And then she got pregnant again. My brother has to adopted children. My nephew has a handicapped child. Should he have advocated aborting the child because of inconvenience?
Is life in foster homes, the vast majority of which are worthwhile, WORSE than being aborted? A lack of adoptive families is a reason to decide that NO life is better than life?
These are all straw arguments to justify abortion. Abortion no longer needs justification in this country. You don’t need to convince anyone. It’s legal and not going away. You object to the bill that will end up restricting the number of clinics. Well, some clinics are fine. Why are those able to provide inexpensive services and meet requirements? I haven’t said anything about the “hospital bill” because I don’t care about whether it passed or not. Of course, as soon as more pro-choice politicians get into office, those requirements will be slacked.
I’m not trying to get you angry or anything. I’m not trying to convince you that you are wrong. I’m just responding to a post.
I know that these statements are going to outrage you. I can’t help that and I don’t mean to upset you. You are the guys that put up the post and I tried to keep it to a “funding” question. Every time someone brings up the idea that life is better for the children, the costs are brought of the government supporting them is brought up. That I should therefore be more supportive of gov’t programs because all of these children will need government care because these women (and men, don’t forget them. They are also involved.) won’t support them.
You talk about HPV and other diseases as if I’m saying cut off all medical care to women. Planned Parenthood is not the only medical facility. Those services are available elsewhere. Heck, pro-choice organizations can create a fund where they can subsidize Planned Parenthood to provide inexpensive abortions. You talk about conservatives needing to step up and pay for the “consequences” of life…..pro-choice people that support subsidized clinics can’t set up a non-profit charity.
You know what? This argument won’t end. You win. Only women have rights when it comes to children and fetuses. Their rights override it all. Lets have the government pay for everything. We’ll just print more money. We can afford it. Especially free or cheaper contraception because no one has self control or a sense that if you agree to sex, you are agreeing that pregnancy might happen. Personal responsibility is gone. There is no right to life. “Social conservatives” are all hypocrites for believing that and that, abortion, at the very least, should be more than just another form of contraception.
You win.
Let me clear sopmething up here about Sen. Colgan.
Sen Colgan may be one helluva nice guy. I worked at Colgan Air a long, LONG time ago. HOwever, Sen. Colgan and his family are devout Catholics. Sen Colgan has NEVER voted pro-choice on ANY issue. Sen. Colgan votes in accordance to his Catholic beliefs and those of the anti-choice crowd.
Just because he is a Democrat does not automatically make him pro-choice.
I remember a few years back during an election, his republican challenger sent out an ad saying Colgan was LAX on abortion and family planning. That Colgan was IN FAVOR of it. I knew it to be COMPLETE BS, because I knew his voting record AND I knew his stance. Senator Colgan is one of trhe forced birth crowd and happily votes to ensure all women are compelled to remain pregnant or die trying to abort.
The government doesn’t fund abortions Cargo. Glad to know you are in full support of WIC and Headstart. Have you written your senators and congressmen demanind they fully fund those programs?
Cargo,
Exaclty what other national clinics offer those services at such a reduced price? Please, before you make suggestions you should have your facts. I used planned parenthood for years before I had a job that offered full healthcare. So, you tell me where these millions of women are going to go now for reduced healthcare services that will save their lives? Well, I guess they will go into the ER system along with everyone else where then we can ALL PAY for their care.
Cargo,
So, you believe that women should be forced to pay for the raising of a child? Just checking.
Cargo,
I don’t get you. The government does end up paying for unwanted children, one way or another. Why defund the best organization that PREVENTS unwanted pregnancy? From a common sense perspective, it just defies logic.
May I suggest that you read about Sherri Finkbine.
In 1962, pregnant with her 5th child, she realized that she had taken the drug Thalidomide while visiting Europe. By that time it had been pretty much established that the drug caused immense birth defects (missing or shortened limbs).
No abortion in the US; Japan refused to issue her a visa. Finally, she was able to get an abortion in Sweden. The fetus lacked legs and an arm. Mrs. Finkbine went on to have another healthy baby.
As for Tursday’s vote. It was a sneaky way to go about it, IMHO.
Cargo,
I believe you are a decent man, and that if you saw someone in need, you would help them. But, from my persective, its the unseen, in the here and now, that often are forgotten. I believe abortion is a painful choice that women make, and I wish that there was never any need for them, but as long as women have been able to control their reproductive choices, many have searched to do so, for thousands of years, whether it be prevention or pregnancy termination. It’s alll about where you invest your energy I guess.
“Abortion is fine all the way up to the second of birth and to some…during birth. Unwanted children should die because they are unwanted?”
SAYS WHO????
RvW in fact states that the STATE can regulate in the 2nd trimester when a woman can have an abortion and for what reasons. IT ALSO STATES that abortion in the 3rd trimester is NOT ALLOWED/ILLEGAL unless a woman’s life is in immediate danger OR her fetus is so severely deformed that it will die upon/shortly after birth.
So where do you get this notion that women go running into abortion clinics in their 9th month, in labor screaming “kill it! kill it!”
You know, it says A LOT about the “pro-life” crowd when they so callously assume that women so late in pregnancy abort for vain or frivolous reasons. It shows that you people really do NOT care for the women involed if you think that carrying a pregnancy to near term, and having to abort is all for mere convenience. In fact it is downright sick and beyond misogynistic.
……………
“You keep talking about the rights of the woman to defend her body. Ok. I understand that. “Fetuses” have bodies too. “……”But I also believe that fetuses are living human unborn babies that left unmolested will grow into a human being.”
What about miscarriage? Apparantly not all fetuses left unmolested go to term….. What about those “”lost babies”??? If the “pro-life” crowd gave an ounce of care for the unborn, they would be supporting any/all research into PREVENTING miscarriage. But see, when a pregnancy is miscarried – a life is lost, not by choice but by nature….it’s OKAY. But if a woman DARES decide she does not want to be pregnant or have a baby for (insert reasons here), somehow it is IMMORAL and WRONG.
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“Guess what? Children die because of successful abortions. ”
And that right there is SEMANTICS. YOU think it is a child. I think it is merely potential. WHAT IS a person, however, as recognized by law is the WOMAN who is pregnant.
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“Why does it have to be federally funded? ”
IT IS NOT FEDERALLY FUNDED. See Hyde Ammendment.
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“Why can’t a woman or a man get contraception? Are condoms that expensive? Is not having sex without protection that expensive? Have we fallen so far that the sex drive is not controllable or that to satisfy those needs that they can’t do “something else” together?”
Who says all these unplanned pregnancies are from lack of contraception? You do realize contraception fails. People use it incorrectly too……
And please, this: “Have we fallen so far that the sex drive is not controllable or that to satisfy those needs that they can’t do “something else” together?”……………it’s none of your business what people do or don’t do in the privacy of their bedrooms. You can judge as you wish, but your judgements of other peoples’ sex lives is irrelevant. It has come out that HPV is transmittable via oral sex (oral sex being one of those “something else’s of which you were speaking). Do we then condem people who have oral sex and deny them treatment for it because we judge their “sex drive to be uncontrollable”?
And FWIW – getting contraception is not easy if you are a teenager – especially in THIS state.
“Planned Parenthood is not the only medical facility. Those services are available elsewhere. ”
Planned Parenthood is the ONLY LOW COST facility to offer medical services to POOR/low income people on a sliding scale price. Good luck walking into any other OB/GYN office and expecting your fee to be less because you don’t have insurance.
“Especially free or cheaper contraception because no one has self control or a sense that if you agree to sex, you are agreeing that pregnancy might happen. ”
In many Eurpoean nations BC is subsidised and costs almost zilch. Their abortion rates are minimal.
Oh and as for “personal responsibility”….well, I do believe people know that pregnancy can happen if they have sex, even while using BC. HOwever knowledge that pregnancy CAN happen is NOT ACCEPTANCE or AGREEMENT to REMAIN pregnant. When I have sex, I know I run the risk of pregnancy. But in knowing that in NO WAY do I agree to REMAIN or KEEP said pregnancy!