Shep Smith and Juan Williams discuss Wisconsin, the Koch bros. and unions.
Shep agrees that right now, Scott Walker is union busting.
Imagine, my favorite Faux News allowing journalists to have these thoughts!
48 Thoughts to “Shep Smith:Wisconsin fight has nothing to do with budget now”
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Actually, a good, frank discussion with points on many sides. I am somewhat surprised that the idea of collective bargaining has gravitated into somewhat of a narrow focus here, with the opinion of some being that, since the workers agreed to certain financial sacrifices, the idea of collective bargaining rights is no problem at all.
Well, it seems to me that it depends on how honestly a union uses those bargaining rights. Apart from salary and benefit levels, the bargaining sometimes comes down to the actual personnel configuration of the working place, even to a point of having more labor than actually required for the tasks at hand.
My late father-in-law owned and operated a solo grading and excavation company in a right-to-work state. He had occasion from time to time to hire extra temp help for the larger jobs. A union guy came out one time and told him that he needed to hire an extra hand just to handle the water keg for the other workers. This guy would be in charge of the keg sitting on the low boy truck and walk around to give the workers a drink when they needed it. The father-in-law looked at this union guy and said, in effect: “This truck is not far from where the laborers are. I pay these guys a good wage, and I furnish good, clean, fresh water for them. Whenever they are thirsty, they have my permission to go over to the truck and get water. And you want me to add to my expenses by hiring someone just to provide room service with the water?” The union guy left in a helpless huff. Now, if the father-in-law had been in a strong “union” state……..? Not so simple when you come down to the nitty gritty of it.
Give/take…give/take. Then there is Texas. Huge deficit. No collective bargaining.
Yes there have been abuses. Some of that abuse has been the non-union side of the table giving away concessions in exchange for other things. Maybe the word should be don’t.
I don’t like union busting. Americans are smart people. They can fix what’s broken without union busting.
The collective bargaining process is to protect the workers, as much as to protect the employer. Yes, there have been Union arm twisting that I do not agree with, but the labor force of the State or the Feds should not be in fear of the political whims of who ever gets elected into office. What is wrong with collective bargaining – is it the fact that many elected officials give in to the union demands to gain their support – (R’s and D’s) – well, then that official should be called out for it. The Conneticutt governor has talked about a R-Governor of Conn that gave out a 20 year contract (foolish).
and why are the Police and FireFighters exempt? The employee should not be working in a career where their wages and benefits are subject to the political whim of the newly elected official. Another thing – on the Union Dues – if you are a member of a Union, and you do not agree with the political leanings of that Union, you are allowed (law) to not contribute to the Union PAC Funds – the only Union dues that you will have to pay is for the collective bargaining process. Are there problems with some Unions – yes, do they create friction for management – yes, but there are many many unions that work with management, and the companies are successful (like UPS), and there are many non union companies with the same type of waste and management friction.
Great post, Pat. I agree.
If three unions are broken, then the democrats would be severely weakened. Nice political stunt. We are all on to it.
also, you can look at many companies, that do not treat employees like how I would like to be treated – example FedEx – yes, a successful company, but at what cost – do you know that many of the FedEx truck drivers are not employees, they are independent contractors. FedEx will tell them when to start work, how to deliver the package, is what order to drop the packages off, and how to hold their keys, yet, they still say (and went to court) over the fact that they want to treat these people like they are not employees. Now, this is not a Union fight, as FedEx is largely non union, but as a contractor, they do not pay the benefits (FICA, Medicare, Health 401k, etc) that they would incur with an employee. And compare FedEx (profitable, non union) company with UPS (profitable, Union) company.
Also, what about workers in transient type careers – truck drivers (teamsters) and construction – where they work for the contractor of the day – how should their pension and 401k be handled – if each employer handled the 401k plan, the person could have say 50 401k plan (fragmented and unmanagable), and never be vested in a pension plan.
Pat, you have a wealth of information there that I sure have never thought about. Thanks.
Now that’s fair and balanced reporting. Maybe he’ll be invited to sit on curvy couch with Steve Doocy.
Interesting information about the top ten donors.
I found discussions surrounding the fake Koch call didn’t hit on the obvious – why would a businessman from Kansas call a Governor in Wisconsin to discuss strikes and why would a Governor be so open to a businessman from Kansas….?
Go Shep!
Dana Milbank in the Wash Post had a great op ed today on what it means to be in a leadership role and Scott Walker is not acting as a leader. He quotes Reagan and yet Reagan was able to compromise with Democrats, many were his friends.
Agreed, Elena. Excellent op ed for those who like Dana Milbank.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/25/AR2011022503021_2.html
A better one: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/24/AR2011022406520.html
“In the private sector, the capitalist knows that when he negotiates with the union, if he gives away the store, he loses his shirt. In the public sector, the politicians who approve any deal have none of their own money at stake. On the contrary, the more favorably they dispose of union demands, the more likely they are to be the beneficiary of union largess in the next election. It’s the perfect cozy setup.”
Shemp should fact check better before he recycles urban myths about top donors: http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcontribs.php
Here is the reality though Cato, this debate is not about the budget and what this govenor is doing is simply wrong. What would republicans say if this were a democrat, unwilling to even attempt to compromise?
That’s your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to it. An equally valid opinion is that coercive negotiation tactics such as collective bargaining have no place in the public sector, which is what FDR and no less than the first president of the AFL/CIO believed. The effort is not only about a one-year budget but also addresses the structural problems that got you there in the first place.
As to the compromise comment, thanks for the belly laugh 🙂 I seem to recall one party ramming its agenda down our collective throats during 2009-2010, and I didn’t see you bemoaning the lack of “compromise.”
When Fox News starts seeing the problem of business manipulating government it’s really bad.
“coercive negotiation tactics such as collective bargaining have no place in the public sector” – but they are fine in sports, news broadcasting, writers, ? Oh right, those folks can afford their own attorney. How about we pay the very high performing Wisconsin teachers top wage and they can negotiate individual contracts.
SAT scores by state show Wisconsin as #3, Minnesota #2, Iowa #1, Michigan #5. But I guess outcome is not related to teacher quality in this case?
@Cato, after 8 years of Bush, I would say not. No bemoaning at all. There was only one direction to go. Up.
Juturna, very interesting and impressive.
More war on public employees. Why do people think they should work for peanuts while everyone gets to be middle class?
In addition to the $43k acknowledged donation to Walker, Koch spent $3.4M going after Walker’s opponent and funded $342k in an advertising campaign supporting Walker’s plan to end collective bargaining.
How capitalism lost it’s soul in America.
And some really believe that people like the Koch Bros have their best interest at heart and that you are one and the same.
Thanks Juturna. Definitely soul losing times. It sounds like we had an invasion of the soul snatchers.
That is what I can’t figure out. Why are normal people defending billionaries? Do they think they are their buddies? I know whose pocket the Kochs are padding. Their own.
I think that’s a very good solid question MH. If middle class folk like myself are supporting Koch and the robber barons. What’s our rationale for doing so?
Sure you can think I’m a rube. I get that. But, me and so many others? Is the answer really that simple?
So, why so much support to the top 1% when a person like myself isn’t part of that club?
With reference to the SAT scores posted above: http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/23/state-democratic-party-wisconsin/labor-union-supporters-say-wisconsin-test-scores-v/ Virginia is mentioned in that URL.
What’s in it for me and my ilk to be soulless and go after public employees?
I guess you can get your information from a political blog or the SAT folks. I chose the latter.
“what’s in it for me and my ilk to be souless and go after public employees” color me shocked!!!!
@Juturna
No, I’m asking the question. What’s our motivation. Really, that’s the theme of this thread. That we’re bastards for going after these people. So, what’s the motivation for it? Why do the NASCAR bunch side with the billionares?
Why if it seems logical in our self interest to support a fellow middle classer are we saying; no this isn’t right.
So, the question hangs.. If we’re bastards.. Why do we do this? What’s our motivation?
…and no points for crab mentality. 🙂
I don’t like how this is being done. Koch is not doing this for anyone but Koch. Do you think the cost of living will go down if collective bargaining is elminated? Who do you think will benefit from this? If the people we elect are unable to facilitate change without private backing what’s the point of having a congress? So yes, how do you explain supporting this?
By the way, a kid I grew up with in New England (yep,land of the evil people) is a mechanic on someone’s pit crew. Been a fan of NASCAR for years. In fact when I met my Tennessee born spouse I had to convince him he’d enjoy it. I really don’t care for stereotypes…
Personnally, I think collective bargaining should be reduced in stages with a plan. Not anihilated by a few rich boy for their personal gain.
Buy that used van yet?
Everyone had better buy a used van. There won’t be any public schools left. I plan on laughing alot about that and saying, serves them right!
@marinm
‘These people’…..I don’t share your sentiments about ‘these people.’ Most of my friends are ‘these people.’ They work hard for an honest day’s living. For the most part, they are highly educated. This education wasn’t cheap in terms of money and in terms of time.
The air of superiority with ‘these people’ has not gone undetected. I would say that it actually is a false sense of security. Remember that the more ‘these’ people’ are denigrated and told they should work for peanuts, the more their families and friends will join the ground swell of supporters who have flocked to the defense of ‘these people.’
I never thought I would feel so strongly about union folks. Call it blow back. Most of us are just sick of bullies.
MH – THey’re everywhere. I just posted an update from NH, the state government is pulling out of a major group which they founded that addressed pollution concerns. The bullies paid for massive robo-calls throughout the state. This is really frightening. The issues aside, I can’t imagine any true American thinking this is the right way to effect change.
The constitution is being trampled.
I was planning on laughing when folks were surprised they weren’t invited to the Koch club after supporting their efforts. This is scary. I guess since Congress has become so useless the country is ripe for a Koch Coup.
Think I’ll pull out Atlas Shrugged and read it (maybe skim) it again.
I am reading a new book about the settlement of Washington State. It is far away from here and a blue state. I think I am going to turn from an Independent into a Democrat. Republicans sure know how to make Democrats!!!
@Juturna
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgQ5_SwwWts
We’re all gonna be Koch-a-roaches…. parties will be a thing of the past….
Go accross the pond – Downton Abbey is going to be rebroadcast on Masterpiece in March. Very well written.
You know, the real Cato the Elder, when given the resonsibility of Sardinia displayed tremendous public morality and banished the ursurers…..
Progressivism is my Carthage.
@Cato, but do you know why progressivism is your Carthage? Is it that white male disease we have been talking about?
It’s sure going to be – if Koch is a progressive then I’m for the Romans. One of the Punic Wars killed Cathage? Anyway, government reform should come from within and not be bought.
This government has been bought and paid for since before I was born. The only thing that changes are the names and faces of the purchasers.
Agree, but it has been brought under control a few times – Standard Oil comes to mind.
On lighter note – ever read Steven Saylor, Ruth Downie or Rober Harris – my moniker is the the roman godess of fountains. I’m a Roma-phile.
@Juturna, how about Colleen McCoughough?
I am a Pliny the Elder fan myself. However, when push comes to shove, I like the Greeks better than the Romans. Too many Christians fed to the lions or something.
My wife left Caveat Emptor laying around once and I throughly enjoyed the read. I confess to being somewhat retarded when it comes to liberal arts, though.
It’s never too late…… 🙂
@Juturna
My wife may not be able to reach the pedals in our current car(s) so we’re going to wait a bit before we plunk down some coin on the van. Seems to be working out well for us if autos trend lower because of the cost of gas. We shall see!
For the union issue. If I’m a solid middle class guy that is just like everyone else and one major illness away from being crushed… why do I support billionares? Is the only explanation that I’m a rube? Is that really all that’s left?
The Greeks were mathmaticians.
@Marim – Bill Gates is just fine… I don’t care for the billionaire Koch brothers. I don’t like HOW this is happening.
While coming back from the party, I listened to 770 for the first time. ManCow was having callers talk about Wisconsin. He had some union members calling in and surprising him. His screener probably thought that they would be supporting Wisconsin, but the private union people, about 10 callers, were supporting Walker. They see the public sector unions acting as a monopoly on labor and as bullies.
@Cargo, funny how perspective is. I see Walker as the bully. He refuses to compromise. He is calling it as an all or nothing.
Glad you got back safely. What is 770? Is that statellite?
“Maybe if you [Bill Gates] weren’t so distracted by sick children in Africa you could have put a little more thought into Windows Vista.” – Dr. S. Cooper, Big Bang Theory
@Moon-howler
well as a Dem who moved from Manassas to WA state I can say that this is a very Blue state, and still seems to have popular unions…the weather is wet (except the summers which are spectacular) but the locals are hard to get to know
Tom, you deserted us!!! Miss you! Remember the Clinton days! Remember the Lincoln Memorial!!!
You are right about summers out your way. Spectacular. Winter, not so good, I hear.
@Moon-howler
770 am. Heard it leaving Manassas. We don’t get it down here.
I never listen to am. Hate its sound. I only listen to music stations. Usually 92.5.