Intuitively, I simply refuse to agree that the poor and struggling middle class is the reason our national and state budgets are in the toilet. Both Reagan and Bush slashed interest rates which created a building boom and fueled the economy, but under Bush, what new industry was created, what jobs besides those associated with real estate flourished? Isn’t that part of the reason this recovery is so difficult to grow our way out of?
How do you create sustainable jobs and innovative new industry like Green technology? The backbone of our American journey has been the strong middle class. As a capitalist society, don’t we need to spend in order to thrive, how can we spend our way out of this mess if we cut jobs, cut pay, cut investment into our economy? Is the deficit out of control, well, yes, has been for some time. But balancing on pennies from state workers and the poor will NOT put a real dent it, no economist would argue that. We need real reform, from health care to taxes. When someone making a billion dollars only pays 15% in capitol gaines and the rest of us schlubs pay over 30%, I have a problem with that, a real problem. I am no accounting expert, by any stretch of the imagination, but who would argue that glaring unfair disparity?
I admire Robert Reich immensely, he represents my world view and his perspective on the economy is fabulously right on!
Wisconsin’s Republican governor Scott Walker and his GOP legislature are seeking to end almost all union rights for teachers. Ohio’s Republican governor John Kasich is pushing a similar plan in Ohio through a Republican-dominated legislature. New Jersey’s Republican governor Chris Christie is attempting the same, telling a conservative conference Wednesday, “I’m attacking the leadership of the union because they’re greedy, and they’re selfish and they’re self-interested.”
The demonizing of public employees is not only based on the lie that they’ve caused these budget crises, but it’s also premised on a second lie: that public employees earn more than private-sector workers. They don’t, when you take account of their education. In fact over the last fifteen years the pay of public-sector workers, including teachers, has dropped relative to private-sector employees with the same level of education – even including health and retirement benefits. Moreover, most public employees don’t have generous pensions. After a career with annual pay averaging less than $45,000, the typical newly-retired public employee receives a pension of $19,000 a year.
Bargaining rights for public employees haven’t caused state deficits to explode. Some states that deny their employees bargaining rights, such as Nevada, North Carolina, and Arizona, are running big deficits of over 30 percent of spending. Many states that give employees bargaining rights — Massachusetts, New Mexico, and Montana — have small deficits of less than 10 percent.
Republicans would rather go after teachers and other public employees than have us look at the pay of Wall Street traders, private-equity managers, and heads of hedge funds – many of whom wouldn’t have their jobs today were it not for the giant taxpayer-supported bailout, and most of whose lending and investing practices were the proximate cause of the Great Depression to begin with.
Last year, America’s top thirteen hedge-fund managers earned an average of $1 billion each. One of them took home $5 billion. Much of their income is taxed as capital gains – at 15 percent – due to a tax loophole that Republican members of Congress have steadfastly guarded.
If the earnings of those thirteen hedge-fund managers were taxed as ordinary income, the revenues generated would pay the salaries and benefits of 300,000 teachers. Who is more valuable to our society – thirteen hedge-fund managers or 300,000 teachers? Let’s make the question even simpler. Who is more valuable: One hedge fund manager or one teacher?
over two years since the last election, and still we’re talking about reagan and bush??? perhaps the annointed one, the one we’ve been waiting for, who has been presiding over the decline of our country the last two years from the comfort of the oval office, actually shares some of the responsibility for our demise??? does the exploding deficit not impact the situation at all? out of control spending? unsustainable entitlement programs? and after all the wealth from the rich is confiscated and redistributed, what then? will life be any better, or far worse? who will want to produce anything when producers are labeled evil, and the fruits of their labor are confiscated?
middle class, middle class….we are all americans, enough with the class warfare. families are always rising and falling in america (william costigan jr, the departed)
If we are still suffering the effects of one or reaping the benefits of another, then yes, we can still talk about Reagan, Bush, or even Clinton. Bush has only been gone a couple of years. Geez.
Still doing what the rich boys on the block want you to do?
I asked in another thread and never got an answer back. What benefit does E or a person like me get for carrying the water for the Koch Brothers? Is it really that we’re rubes?
This talk about income gap or income inequality also forgets the notion we have in this country of income mobility.
“Who is more valuable: One hedge fund manager or one teacher?”
Society says the fund manager. I tend to agree.
yes, I agree in the teacher, we bailed out those bastards to the tune of 1 billion dollars, sank our economy, were on the brink of a depression and YOU really believe they are better for this country than teachers?
What are you basing your premise upon?
Just remember that without a teacher there is no hedge fund manager.
Cato, understood. But, the teacher does not go uncompensated. The teacher isn’t forced into bondage to do our bidding. They get a wage wage to do work. If the market falls out for that teacher then we’ll need to correct. But, I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
Elena, if money is simply a tool to show value – to represent the value of work – then that the fund manager has more shows that society values him more. Same with a football player or a musician.
Elena’s comment reminded me of this:
In these lean times, amid the furor and name-calling, we forget that teachers are not the wretched of the earth. They are often noble sorts, and that is reflected by what they make, how long they work, and the conditions under which they toil. If you doubt that, ask the almond farmer, roofer, or welder whose taxes pay their salaries.
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson022511.html
@marin, were you better off before or after the 2008 crash? Just curious. Can you read and write? Where would you be if you could not read and write and do math?
Do you have money with a hedge fund? Actually much of the money in hedge funds comes from large pensions like VRS. Full circle. One can’t invest in a hedge fund without at least a million bucks…actually its probably more now.
Actually, if you make 200K annually for the past two years you can invest in a hedge fund, but most hedgies won’t talk to you unless you have a minimum of 1 million to put into play. I was kind of surprised to see VRS weighted so heavily in hedge funds, something like 18% exposure.
I read the article in the link left by marin and can only conclude that this Hansen man is a horse’s ass. He got a PHd and taught at the college level, yet had the gall to compare himself to the teachers in Wisconsin. How many college professors could do the job of a first grade teacher or even a 6th grade teacher? Not many.
Marin, do you think you could teach a young child in a class of 25 to read, write and count? I seriously doubt it. I feel confident I couldn’t. Rather than insult those who can, by training and experience, do these things, I think it is time to just realize that there is simply a lot most people don’t know about the profession.
I am going to defer to Cato’s very succinct remark.
@Cato, I was rather surprised also. re VRS.
As you can see, I was off a little regarding the hedgies. My guru doesn’t have much regard for hedgies.
Ah, in that we disagree Marinm, I don’t believe that just money is a representative of value of work, at least not the greedy extent to which I see bankers and investors making their millions off us poor suckers.
@Moon-howler
I think I’m slightly worse off than in 2008. My net worth is down because of my housing value (but that’s OK because I don’t care about net worth or my houses value until I sell).
Yes, I can read and write at the 12th grade level. Math? Maybe at the 7th grade level. 😉
I think my current pension is tied into a hedge fund but I’m unaware to what extent.
You ask if I could teach a young child. Yes, I can. A class of 25 would be difficult but I think doable. I lack the required certification to do it but if I was inclined to do it and wanted to kick butt at it I have every confidence I could do so at least to an average level. Might even be fun from a certain point of view.
Not so sure I would be able to teach 25 first graders all to read, write and do math. It would be difficult and it would take anyone being a magician. Long hours of planning and having lots of energy. I will not denigrate anyone who can do that job. And if they aren’t paid $100k a year, something is wrong. It is a critically important job.
My house is still worth half what it was worth in 2007. I guess it was in free fall before the crash. Why are you grousing about other people’s pensions if you have one? Aren’t you 1 degree of seperation from being a govt employee?
My pension is with Hewlett Packard. If they go out of business the pension dies. Well, sorta. The pension is picked up by the government in case of default by the PBGC and I’d get a modified percent of what I would’ve gotten from HP.
I’m not banking on that money existing in 30 years. If it does – WOOHOO!
I’m grousing on public pensions. Private companies can do what they want.
I guess you could say I’m one degree of seperation as a federal defense contractor. I don’t reject that label. I don’t see any stigma associated with it.
Yes, the middle class is getting squeezed more and more – most middle class people’s net worth has been reduced, and wages have been stagnant for years.
Nobody is worth the kind of money that many CEO’s and Hedge fund managers make (or sports players) – they are not worth the money, and it is largely not the free market that sets their salaries – it is often the same small club that sets the salaries for each other.
marin – HP can go out of business, and your pension could still be fine – HP must meet certain funding requirements while they are still in business, but if they went out of business, the Pension fund will remain (it does not die), and only if the Pension fund becomes insolvent, will the PBGC start to pick up the obligations.
I do not understand why private pensions are ok, but public pensions are not – so, the taxpayer, as an employer, should not pay people a decent living, and a pension for their retirement years? Had DOD not outsourced their contract to your employer, I think you would have had a different opinion.
@Pat.Herve
I think pensions on the whole are outdated but if a private company wants to do it and they set up an obligation with an employee for it; I don’t see an issue with it. I have an issue with public pensions as it increases the cost to taxpayers (MH’s wino would need to pay more for a bottle) that could probably be better controlled by a 401K-type plan.
DOD has slowly been trying to move contractors into the civilian work force. I’ve resisted those attempts (but generally I do think the position I occupy should probably be done by a govt-civilian vice a contractor as my duty is more of an auditor than a ratchet turner). The govt has also offered a nice package to entice me into govt service but so far I’ve declined.
The benefits offered by DOD are much better than what I get as a contractor (medical is less but that’s because I get amazing medical) and the pay is roughly the same but in the end.. I like being compensated for achievement. If I do something good I get rewarded for it. If I take the govt slot I can just sit on my butt and collect a check. It’s just not how I roll.
What’s a decent living? I dislike the term “a living wage”. My wife is in desperate need to find home health care assistants to provide a person to come to a patients home and provide them care. The jobs are roughly 22K. Not uber pay but it’s still a paycheck. I asked an unemployed person – who I will not name – if they’d take the job. Training would be offered and paid back to the company on the first two paychecks. He (high school education mind you) said he couldn’t live off that and wanted 40-60K to ‘start’.
He’s still collecting unemployment.
George, social security funds are extracted from me without my consent. Your darn right I’m going to collect as much as I can when I’m of age.
Just because I don’t like paying taxes doesn’t mean I won’t take all my deductions.
I would demand a non-union rope.
Hedge fund managers are compensate in management fees which are levered to the net asset value of the fund. They are bonused with a performance fee which is a percentage of profit. The Illuminati don’t sit around a pentagram in the basement and determine compensation for these jobs, despite what you might believe. It’s pay for performance, deliver returns and get paid, lose money and go hungry.
@marinm
So the stigma rests solely on public employees?
I think public folks have just as much right to a pension as private workers.
I renounce this war on public employees and that is just what it is. They have taken left overs for years. If they managed to get ahead for a couple of years, good for them.
I am speaking mainly of state and local public employees. The federal workers have never been burdened by cash strapped coffers like the more local governments have.
Moon,
My mom is a public employee, when she lets me, I drive around her jaguar…hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
She’s just rollin’ in dough, livin’ the high life…………………………NOT.
Well, I guess the bottom line is, tough crap. Public employees do get pension funds. Good for them. The 401k plan as a sole investment for retirement is a fairly poor plan. Most employees get very little guidance. Most plans with most companies, both public and private, are limited. The best choices just aren’t always offered to employees. Some even have an annuity fee attached. The ‘managers’ of the company fund …not so good in many cases.
If you think you have $100k saved, jokes on you. It really is only $76k in Virginia. Could be more or less depending on where you live. Its that rascally, untaxed money.
Pensions aren’t outdated if they are calculated correctly according to their liabilities. And I don’t care who pays for it. That is the negotiated part. Virginia’s problem is jurisdictions and the state not paying as they should. It was a very secure, well-regulated plan for years. Funniest thing how it just recently turned to crap….isn’t it?????
I think its crap turning has strong political underpinnings.
Now as for those fund managers. My son in California is a mutual fund manager and owner. I would think while he values what he does, I am not sure he puts more value on himself than he does his children’s teachers. I also won’t tell you what he thinks about hedge fund managers. They simply don’t have the same scrutiny that mutual fund managers have.
Why don’t we make everyone who comments here post their net worth. Then we’ll be able to tell who among us are actually worthwhile people, and we can shun the others.
The notion that a person’s value to society is determined by the size of their paycheck is as petty as that suggestion.
@BTO, I guess that would make Mother Theresa low woman on the totem pole then . Poor Mother T.
Ruh Roh, I am a stay at home mom, working only for the love and adoration of my husband and children, no real monetary value 🙂 @BTO
@Moon-howler
Apples and oranges. Mutual funds are generally more on the up and up because they have the SEC crawling up their you-know-what. Hedge funds don’t, but the SEC has a whole list of criteria that they apply to determine whether or not an investor is “qualified” to invest in a hedge fund. I know some very honest hedgies and some very slimy ones but they all are a bunch of secret squirrels when it comes to their investment strategies.
@Cato, that is definitely what I have been told but the person who told me is not without bias. 👿
I have had to hear alot about the crawling habits of the SEC.